[Books] [Sci-fi] Iain M. Banks' Culture novels

Zaxxon · Post by **Zaxxon** » Mon Mar 28, 2016 2:54 pm

Anyone else a fan of the Culture series? It hit my radar after I saw SpaceX named their drone ships after Culture GSVs. Read the first book in the series, Consider Phlebas, last summer. I enjoyed it but wasn't blown away. Last fall I read the second book, Player of Games, and was more impressed. I moved on to some other backlogged books and just got back to book 3, Use of Weapons, recently.

And this one did blow me away. I won't go into detail as to why as it's best to come into this one largely blind, I think. But the high-level overview is that the book tells two sets of stories about its protagonist--one, the 'main' story, moving forward in time; and a second comprising a set of flashback stories in reverse chronological order. The stories alternate chapters. It's a cool concept even if it does take a bit more effort to follow. And the payoff...

But back to the thread topic. Anyone else here a fan of this series? (I seem to recall it coming up from one or two folks in the sci-fi recommendation thread(s).) The series is different enough from 'standard' sci-fi fare to be intriguing to me. The Culture books all involve the Culture, an advanced, post-scarcity civilization with immense technological power whose goings-on are largely run by Minds, uber-AIs. Meanwhile the populace goes around doing whatever the hell they please.

As Wikipedia puts it, The main theme of the novels is the dilemmas that an idealistic hyperpower faces in dealing with civilisations that do not share its ideals, and whose behaviour it sometimes finds repulsive. In some of the stories, action takes place mainly in non-Culture environments, and the leading characters are often on the fringes of, or non-members of, the Culture, sometimes acting as agents of Culture plans to civilise the galaxy..

As such, the books are widely varied in tone and scope, and each one (so far, at least) is fresh.

I'm excited to keep going, although I found that book 4 and 3.5 are both out of print and unavailable in e-book form currently. WTF, publishers? I've got a used copy of 3.5 coming from the UK (!).

Holman · Post by **Holman** » Mon Mar 28, 2016 4:15 pm

I've only read the first two you mentioned, so now I'm excited about Use of Weapons!

I'm excited to keep going, although I found that book 4 and 3.5 are both out of print and unavailable in e-book form currently. WTF, publishers? I've got a used copy of 3.5 coming from the UK (!).

Do you mean The State of the Art and Excession? The first is a short-story collection (these never stay in print, or at least not SF), but Excession is definitely available (although only as a mass-market PB).

Or do you mean some other titles?

Zaxxon · Post by **Zaxxon** » Mon Mar 28, 2016 4:17 pm

I meant State of the Art (neither e-book nor print), and should have clarified that for Excession it's available in print but not e-book form. Frustrating. I have SotA coming from the UK and will probably get a new copy of Excession if it's still not Kindle-ized when I get to it.

Jaymann · Post by **Jaymann** » Mon Mar 28, 2016 4:45 pm

Huge fan here, though many years ago. The Player of Games remains one of my all time favorites.

Holman · Post by **Holman** » Mon Mar 28, 2016 4:49 pm

Zaxxon wrote:I meant State of the Art (neither e-book nor print), and should have clarified that for Excession it's available in print but not e-book form. Frustrating. I have SotA coming from the UK and will probably get a new copy of Excession if it's still not Kindle-ized when I get to it.

Ah, got it. Sorry to misread you.

Zaxxon · Post by **Zaxxon** » Mon Mar 28, 2016 4:50 pm

No, I was not clear. Go read Use of Weapons so we can discuss!

Holman · Post by **Holman** » Mon Mar 28, 2016 5:00 pm

Zaxxon wrote:No, I was not clear. Go read Use of Weapons so we can discuss!

Ordered!

Zaxxon · Post by **Zaxxon** » Mon Mar 28, 2016 5:29 pm

Holman wrote:
Zaxxon wrote:No, I was not clear. Go read Use of Weapons so we can discuss!
Ordered!

Fantastic.

Zarathud · Post by **Zarathud** » Mon Mar 28, 2016 6:52 pm

Do not like. I almost threw my iPad across the room in disgust at the endings of two different books in the series. While I enjoy world building, the ending should still serve the characters in the book. The ending should not be "never mind the protagonist, this happens because the Culture is so awesome." Heavy handed pontificating is fine for R&P, not epic sci-fi.

Zaxxon · Post by **Zaxxon** » Mon Mar 28, 2016 6:55 pm

Which ones caused your outbursts?

Zarathud · Post by **Zarathud** » Mon Mar 28, 2016 8:38 pm

Consider Phlebas
Player of Games

Both books treat the protagonists as essentially meaningless window dressing to advance narrative of The Culture at the end. Until then, the stories were compelling narratives. And that's why it was so infuriating.

Society can treat individuals as worthless, but they're the reason to read until the end. George RR Martin may ruthlessly kill beloved characters by the dozens in Game of Thrones, but the stories then revolve the messed up struggles of the surviving (or even dead) characters.

Holman · Post by **Holman** » Mon Mar 28, 2016 8:44 pm

Zarathud wrote:Consider Phlebas
Player of Games

Both books treat the protagonists as essentially meaningless window dressing to advance narrative of The Culture at the end. Until then, the stories were compelling narratives. And that's why it was so infuriating.

This would be a fault in a lesser writer, but I really think Banks is trying to write "Ideas SF" on a different scale. He knows that his protagonists are diminished in comparison to the Culture and its concerns, and the narrative frustration is intentional. I believe I remember him basically remarking on it somewhere.

Ideas dwarfing characters is a classic complaint about SF (e.g. Asimov), but I think Banks is playing the game of showing he can pull it off.

Zaxxon · Post by **Zaxxon** » Mon Mar 28, 2016 9:07 pm

Yeah, agreed, Holman. FWIW, while there's some of that in book 3 (certainly it's got a philosophical bent), it's definitely a story about a character.

Zarathud · Post by **Zarathud** » Mon Mar 28, 2016 9:14 pm

I think it makes him a writer lesser. IMO, a great writer could still reflect on the insignificance through the character. Or transition more smoothly. So he's trying to make a virtue out of weakness.

I agree it may be intentional, but that makes it worse. Asimov's Foundation series told both levels to completion (from my memory to lesser and greater extents). I've read plenty of RPG sourcebooks and enjoyed them because they never deceptively tried to be something else.

Zaxxon · Post by **Zaxxon** » Mon Mar 28, 2016 9:17 pm

Zarathud wrote:I think it makes him a writer lesser.

And we're done here.

Jaymann · Post by **Jaymann** » Tue Mar 29, 2016 10:21 am

Meh, I'm not crazy about those endings, but on a scale of 1-10 it bothers me about a 2. Not that much different from the "a wizard did it" convention you see in fantasy. It's the story telling that counts, not a slapped on ending.

Holman · Post by **Holman** » Mon May 30, 2016 1:50 pm

Holman wrote:
Zaxxon wrote:No, I was not clear. Go read Use of Weapons so we can discuss!
Ordered!

Hey, I just finished Use of Weapons. I thought it was excellent.

It's got a cool structure: the main plot moves traditionally forward, but the background plot (the focus of every second chapter) runs back, with each episode an earlier event in the protagonist's career. The revelations at the end of both plots might be cheap in the hands of a (yes) lesser writer, but Banks pulls it off. It hits hard.

Good stuff!

I've read Consider Phlebas and Excession, but I can't remember if I've read any other Banks SF. (I did read The Wasp Factory.) I think next up is The Player of Games.

GreenGoo · Post by **GreenGoo** » Mon May 30, 2016 7:11 pm

I'm surprised I didn't pipe in when the thread first came up.

I enjoyed the 2 or 3 Culture books I've read, and unlike some authors, I actually want to read more, specifically about the Culture. I particularly enjoy the sentient ships.

killbot737 · Post by **killbot737** » Mon May 30, 2016 9:15 pm

I read "The Wasp Factory" and "The Algebraist" and I have come to the conclusion that Mr. Banks is a serial murderer.

Holman · Post by **Holman** » Mon May 30, 2016 10:00 pm

killbot737 wrote:I read "The Wasp Factory" and "The Algebraist" and I have come to the conclusion that Mr. Banks is a serial murderer.

Read some of the Culture novels, and you'll decide that he's a free-wheeling hedonistic AI.

Zaxxon · Post by **Zaxxon** » Wed Feb 21, 2018 12:14 pm

I'm still way behind on getting through this series, but this is awesome.

Holman · Post by **Holman** » Wed Feb 21, 2018 6:39 pm

The irony of a proto-MegaCorps like Amazon taking on Iain Banks is not to be overlooked.

Jag · Post by **Jag** » Thu Feb 22, 2018 9:46 am

Haven't read Banks, but SpaceX put it on my radar when I saw that Musk named his ships after the ones in the books. Also makes sense for Amazon to pick it up because Bezos is such a sci-fi fan too (he was an extra in Star Trek).

How would you classify the books? Space opera, military sci-fi, etc. Not a huge sci-fi reader, but I loved the Expanse, Dune and Honor Harrington books.

Zaxxon · Post by **Zaxxon** » Thu Feb 22, 2018 9:49 am

I'm not sure you can classify the series as a whole as each book may vary widely in scope. There's definitely a military element, but this isn't Heinlein.

The basic gist is a far-future civilization where AIs run the show and humans can largely do as they please. What does that mean for those who live in / near such a civilization?

Zarathud · Post by **Zarathud** » Thu Feb 22, 2018 10:24 am

Great. Now I can throw my TV along with my Kindle. The Culture books heavy-handedly dehumanize the characters, and that drives me mad.

Holman · Post by **Holman** » Thu Feb 22, 2018 11:40 am

Jag wrote: ↑Thu Feb 22, 2018 9:46 am Haven't read Banks, but SpaceX put it on my radar when I saw that Musk named his ships after the ones in the books. Also makes sense for Amazon to pick it up because Bezos is such a sci-fi fan too (he was an extra in Star Trek).

How would you classify the books? Space opera, military sci-fi, etc. Not a huge sci-fi reader, but I loved the Expanse, Dune and Honor Harrington books.

The ones I've read would fall under Space Opera, but on the heady-ideas end of the spectrum. There's a lot of action and plenty of violence, but you're never far from being asked to notice the leftist-anarchist sometimes-ambiguous Utopia of The Culture and the degree to which various local human political structures consistently fail to measure up.

Banks reaches for a "literary SF" style, although it's also often very revved-up and fun.

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