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Chicago... nice city you have here

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GreenGoo
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Re: Chicago... nice city you have here

Post by GreenGoo » Thu Feb 21, 2019 7:19 pm

How is faking a hate crime a hate crime?

That's rhetorical, don't answer.

The rest of us would probably face jail time, so I'm good with locking him up for a bit. I like the idea of charging him for the city's services. That's gotta be worth hundreds if not millions, given the extra effort put in.

He thought he was dissatisfied withh his employment particulars before this little escapade.

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Re: Chicago... nice city you have here

Post by hepcat » Thu Feb 21, 2019 7:35 pm

No matter what happens, his career is finished. He's managed to betray pretty much everyone who might have had his back. The trial will linger on for a while, he'll get less and less visibility in the press as that goes on, then he'll eventually just disappear.
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Re: Chicago... nice city you have here

Post by Moliere » Thu Feb 21, 2019 8:50 pm

"The world is suffering more today from the good people who want to mind other men's business than it is from the bad people who are willing to let everybody look after their own individual affairs." - Clarence Darrow

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GreenGoo
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Re: Chicago... nice city you have here

Post by GreenGoo » Thu Feb 21, 2019 10:38 pm

hepcat wrote:
Thu Feb 21, 2019 7:35 pm
No matter what happens, his career is finished. He's managed to betray pretty much everyone who might have had his back. The trial will linger on for a while, he'll get less and less visibility in the press as that goes on, then he'll eventually just disappear.
Oh for sure.

If he's not done in the entertainment business I'll eat my hat. Maybe someone on the fringe will throw him some pity roles, maybe, but no major studio or tv producer is going to go near him with a 10 foot pole. Even the pity roles are highly unlikely, I just don't like saying never but people are crazy and he might benefit from one of them.

stimpy
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Re: Chicago... nice city you have here

Post by stimpy » Thu Feb 21, 2019 11:17 pm

There will be a book and tv movie.
1. Lie about attack.
2. Maintain your innocence despite mounds of evidence piling up against you.
3. ???
4. Profit!!
It makes my dookie twinkle.

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Chicago... nice city you have here

Post by Zarathud » Thu Feb 21, 2019 11:35 pm

Don't make the man Presidential by comparison, stimpy.

He didn't target another person specifically based on race or protected characteristic. It's a crime but not violent or targeted to make it a "hate crime." It will have potentially severe penalties, legally and professionally.
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GreenGoo
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Re: Chicago... nice city you have here

Post by GreenGoo » Thu Feb 21, 2019 11:48 pm

There are also laws that prevent or limit someone's ability to profit from their crimes (at least their convictions). I don't know what they are or how they work, but I wouldn't say being famous for a crime is easy money. Whether those laws apply in this case, I have no idea. It's just not necessarily a slamdunk.

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Re: Chicago... nice city you have here

Post by stimpy » Fri Feb 22, 2019 12:26 am

Zarathud wrote:
Thu Feb 21, 2019 11:35 pm
Don't make the man Presidential by comparison, stimpy.

He didn't target another person specifically based on race or protected characteristic. It's a crime but not violent or targeted to make it a "hate crime." It will have potentially severe penalties, legally and professionally.
Does the fact that he would have been perfectly happy had 2 white people been mistakenly arrested matter at all?
He stated the alleged attackers were white and identified 2 people on camera as the attackers for sure.
What if there just happened to be 2 innocent white people walking down that street? He's a piece of shit that was only looking to further his exposure no matter the price.
It makes my dookie twinkle.

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GreenGoo
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Re: Chicago... nice city you have here

Post by GreenGoo » Fri Feb 22, 2019 1:23 am

stimpy wrote:
Fri Feb 22, 2019 12:26 am
Zarathud wrote:
Thu Feb 21, 2019 11:35 pm
Don't make the man Presidential by comparison, stimpy.

He didn't target another person specifically based on race or protected characteristic. It's a crime but not violent or targeted to make it a "hate crime." It will have potentially severe penalties, legally and professionally.
Does the fact that he would have been perfectly happy had 2 white people been mistakenly arrested matter at all?
He stated the alleged attackers were white and identified 2 people on camera as the attackers for sure.
What if there just happened to be 2 innocent white people walking down that street? He's a piece of shit that was only looking to further his exposure no matter the price.
Hate him for it all you want. I kinda do. That's not the same thing as believing the justice system should bury him for it. My personal emotions aren't the governing factor in how the justice system works, and thank god. Also, how he feels about his crime might influence sentencing, but it doesn't influence the crime he's charged with. We don't change the charges based on the perpetrator's feelings, tytpically. That he would have been happy to ruin 2 peoples' lives makes him a piece of shit as you said, but being a piece of shit is not a crime in and of itself. If 2 innocent people had been arrested and gone to jail then we could punish him for it. But that didn't happen, so the punishment should be lesser than if it did.

For the record I don't think there is a principled reason for hate crimes as separate charges to exist. I don't believe that killing people because they are your neighbours and you hate them is a lesser crime than killing someone because of the color of their skin. I don't make the rules though, more's the pity. :wink:

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Re: Chicago... nice city you have here

Post by Freyland » Fri Feb 22, 2019 1:55 am

I would expect a longer sentence for whatever the crime since he attempted to screw over two innocents. There might actually be a specific charge for just that.
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Re: Chicago... nice city you have here

Post by mori » Fri Feb 22, 2019 9:54 am

I do not think the justice system is going to "bury him". Just as he got special treatment when the accusations were made, he will get special treatment in a plea deal. I suspect he will be on a reality TV show before too long.

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Unagi
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Re: Chicago... nice city you have here

Post by Unagi » Fri Feb 22, 2019 10:50 am

stimpy wrote:
Fri Feb 22, 2019 12:26 am
He's a piece of shit that was only looking to further his exposure no matter the price.
agreed.

stimpy wrote:
Fri Feb 22, 2019 12:26 am
Does the fact that he would have been perfectly happy had 2 white people been mistakenly arrested matter at all?
He stated the alleged attackers were white and identified 2 people on camera as the attackers for sure.
matter in regard to what?

Was Susan Smith given a harsher sentence because she at first blamed the murder of her 2 kids on a black guy? No, and it's because her crime wasn't intended to attack black people. Her crime was the murder of her kids and the blaming of the black guy was just a feature of her own racism. The murder of her children wasn't a hate crime against black people. Nor a hate crime against children... even though I am sure kids were terrorized by the idea.

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Unagi
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Re: Chicago... nice city you have here

Post by Unagi » Fri Feb 22, 2019 10:53 am

GreenGoo wrote:
Fri Feb 22, 2019 1:23 am
For the record I don't think there is a principled reason for hate crimes as separate charges to exist. I don't believe that killing people because they are your neighbours and you hate them is a lesser crime than killing someone because of the color of their skin. I don't make the rules though, more's the pity. :wink:
It's about putting a change to culture. It's worse because it's been shown to make other people worse. At first blush, I felt the way you did when I first ever heard about 'hate crime' (it just made me scratch my head), but I feel like I get it better now.

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Re: Chicago... nice city you have here

Post by GreenGoo » Fri Feb 22, 2019 11:04 am

Freyland wrote:
Fri Feb 22, 2019 1:55 am
I would expect a longer sentence for whatever the crime since he attempted to screw over two innocents. There might actually be a specific charge for just that.
Framing someone for a crime is a crime. Framing someone for an imaginary crime is probably also a crime, but are they the same crime? Maybe?

The charges for swatting someone are wildly varied and the punishments handed down are equally wide ranging. And to the best of my knowledge "swatting" isn't a crime, but several crimes are committed when you swat someone. That's probably the same thing in this case. How serious those crimes are, what the prosecutor decides to actually charge him with, and what a judge decides his punishment should be are all part of how the justice system works. It's possible that he will get off with a slap on the wrist. It's possible he'll be made an example of.

Random "kid" who thinks swatting is funny? Slap on the wrist probably. Dude with a history of repeatedly swatting? 20 years in a federal prison (apparently). Where does Smollett fall in there? I'm sure there are advocates for probation or even no charges. I'm sure there are advocates for the death penalty. Neither should be taken seriously imo. Something measured and reasonable. At no point am I saying his attempt to frame people should be ignored, only that it not only failed, but was never a real consideration (despite the police publicly stating otherwise. It was clear from the start that they knew something was up). I think we can agree that a credible attempt to frame people is a more severe crime than "some hispanics" did it, and in this particular case, it falls in between. I think it falls closer to "some hispanics did it" than "my brother did it, here's his motive, here's his opportunity, here're his fingerprints and bloodstained clothes and here's my wife's skin cells under his fingernails. Others are free to think differently, I'd just like to understand why they feel that way.

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GreenGoo
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Re: Chicago... nice city you have here

Post by GreenGoo » Fri Feb 22, 2019 11:18 am

Unagi wrote:
Fri Feb 22, 2019 10:53 am
It's about putting a change to culture. It's worse because it's been shown to make other people worse. At first blush, I felt the way you did when I first ever heard about 'hate crime' (it just made me scratch my head), but I feel like I get it better now.
I get it, I just don't like it. Crimes are crimes. Because I hate you and everyone that looks like you so I killed you is not a greater crime than I want your money so I purposefully killed you so I could easily take it imo. Barring the differences in manslaughter and murder of course.

I support ideas like affirmative action in colleges and other situations where active or passive racism is screwing people over. I don't think the justice system should be used for related purposes. I don't think we need new crimes on the books for crimes that are already on the books. Equality is a worthy goal. But taking an extra hammer blow at criminals that were already going to be prosecuted seems unnecessary an unlikely to affect the change hate crimes are designed to make.

It's not that I don't support what the laws are trying to accomplish, I just don't think adding charges based on how the victim feels or even how the criminal feels is a great idea. Feelings are so fickle, ephemeral and often illogical that I don't like using them for the basis of a logic based justice system. Some people think you've committed a major offense when you fail to hold the door open for them long enough. Emotions are often illogical and disproportional. Not a great thing to hang justice's hat on.

I'm sure there are other examples in the justice system outside of hate crimes where emotions are considered as well. Most of the ones I can think of are during sentencing though, not for determining which charges should be brought. "Crimes of passion" if they exist within the justice system, seem to be about punishing people less, not more, than if they had coldly and calculatingly executed a crime.

Meh, I'm hardly a justice system scholar, but neither are the people calling for heads on pikes.

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Unagi
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Re: Chicago... nice city you have here

Post by Unagi » Fri Feb 22, 2019 11:29 am

Well, my understanding is that the 'hate crime' aspect is actually more of a 'sentencing' thing anyhow.
Graffiti is the crime.... if it's a swastika on your Jewish neighbor's garage - it's a graffiti hate crime. It's not like every 'hate crime' has the same weight behind it.

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Re: Chicago... nice city you have here

Post by GreenGoo » Fri Feb 22, 2019 11:51 am

Unagi wrote:
Fri Feb 22, 2019 11:29 am
Well, my understanding is that the 'hate crime' aspect is actually more of a 'sentencing' thing anyhow.
Graffiti is the crime.... if it's a swastika on your Jewish neighbor's garage - it's a graffiti hate crime. It's not like every 'hate crime' has the same weight behind it.
If that's true, and the sentencing falls within the normal range, and the top end hasn't been increased to accommodate this particular motivation, then I don't really care, but then I don't see the use of calling things "hate crimes" or not. We don't have jealousy crimes or greed crimes or other motives.

The wiki, which I realize is not the final word on anything, says this about motive:
A motive, in law, especially criminal law, is the cause that moves people to induce a certain action.[1] Motive, in itself, is not an element of any given crime;

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Re: Chicago... nice city you have here

Post by Moliere » Fri Feb 22, 2019 12:11 pm

"The world is suffering more today from the good people who want to mind other men's business than it is from the bad people who are willing to let everybody look after their own individual affairs." - Clarence Darrow

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Re: Chicago... nice city you have here

Post by hepcat » Fri Feb 22, 2019 12:19 pm

He's been written out of the last two episodes of Empire.

They should just replace him with Oliver.

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Re: Chicago... nice city you have here

Post by stimpy » Fri Feb 22, 2019 3:41 pm

CPD is on fire
It makes my dookie twinkle.

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Re: Chicago... nice city you have here

Post by Isgrimnur » Fri Feb 22, 2019 4:22 pm

Who did he piss off?
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Re: Chicago... nice city you have here

Post by em2nought » Fri Feb 22, 2019 4:26 pm

hepcat wrote:
Fri Feb 22, 2019 12:19 pm
He's been written out of the last two episodes of Empire.

They should just replace him with Oliver.

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Re: Chicago... nice city you have here

Post by LawBeefaroni » Tue Mar 12, 2019 12:58 pm

Smollett was indicted on 16 counts and is in court today.

But this is about something else:


Northwestern Memorial Fires 60 Employees for Accessing Celebrity’s Records
Employees at Northwestern Memorial Hospital in Chicago may have been fired in connection with ‘Empire’ actor Jussie Smollett’s high-profile case.

The former employees say they were fired for inappropriately accessing the actor’s medical records, however, many of them say they didn’t do it, reports CBS Chicago.
I worked there for 20 years. From pre-EMR, pre-HIPAA to full on EPIC. This is nothing new.

It was a running thing that every time Michael Jordan had an injury rumor there would be a bunch of firings for unauthorized searches. I mean you don't even enter a text string in the search box if you can't justify it. Strange that people are acting shocked here. And it doesn't appear that they know how strong the auditing is for EMR.
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Re: Chicago... nice city you have here

Post by Isgrimnur » Tue Mar 12, 2019 1:05 pm

How many of those fired had refused flu shots?
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Re: Chicago... nice city you have here

Post by LawBeefaroni » Tue Mar 12, 2019 1:13 pm

Isgrimnur wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2019 1:05 pm
How many of those fired had refused flu shots?
Probably none since under Illinois law you can't refuse them anymore and can only be exempt for provable health or religious reasons.
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Re: Chicago... nice city you have here

Post by Isgrimnur » Tue Mar 12, 2019 1:16 pm

Good.
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Re: Chicago... nice city you have here

Post by Jaymann » Tue Mar 12, 2019 3:51 pm

LawBeefaroni wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2019 1:13 pm
Isgrimnur wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2019 1:05 pm
How many of those fired had refused flu shots?
Probably none since under Illinois law you can't refuse them anymore and can only be exempt for provable health or religious reasons.
Provable religious reasons. Provable. Religious. Reasons.
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Re: Chicago... nice city you have here

Post by LawBeefaroni » Tue Mar 12, 2019 5:04 pm

Jaymann wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2019 3:51 pm
LawBeefaroni wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2019 1:13 pm
Isgrimnur wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2019 1:05 pm
How many of those fired had refused flu shots?
Probably none since under Illinois law you can't refuse them anymore and can only be exempt for provable health or religious reasons.
Provable religious reasons. Provable. Religious. Reasons.
Stigmata has worked in the past. Although it's more like you have to prove that it is a religious tenet of a recognized religion and that you are indeed of that religion. Being like "I believe that God will protect me" won't fly. And even if you do get an exemption, you still have to wear the mask.
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