Net Worth

[Zaxxon]

I'm really sorry.

This.

Sorry, man. Regardless of how/if you manage to resolve this, the situation really sucks for you. You've done the work to try to fix things in the past, and you're going to do it again. And your reward is a hot, steaming pile of MOTS.

You mentioned that your wife earns about 50% of the household income. That means it's [even more] important that she be onboard with any plan going forward. Do you think she will be amenable to (for example) cutting her credit cards? That seems like step zero to me, and one that's 100% mandatory at this point (to be explicit: 'this point' being after she's caused significant financial hardship to your family due to uncontrolled unannounced credit card spending). If she's not amenable to that, you need to ask yourself what the next step is, because this situation is absolutely going to happen again without that step being taken. Your wife is screaming out to you that she's unable to handle having easy access to credit.

[stessier]

Feel free to not answer these if they are too personal, I'm just curious.

Does Canada have credit scores similar to the US? If so, shouldn't hers be pretty well ruined? How does she keep getting new cards?

Can you move her to a debit card rather than credit card? If not, can you get added to the notifications for every charge on her card? We have that in my family (for fraud detection purposes) but it would work well for your situation too. Or even get added to the email for when it is time to pay her card so you can see the balance every month?

[Freyland]

Instead of a 50/50 split, what are the chances of working out a 10/10/80 split? She manages 10% for her stuff, you manage 10% for your stuff, and you manage 80% for the household itself? The theory being that household goals cannot have any chance of success with two people working at odds with their money supply. <insert actual ratios that make sense for your post-crisis situation>

The problem with this is that if the person in question has the ability to spend beyond the 10%, they will. As written above, getting rid of the means by which they can generate unbridled expenses is the only way. You could do the 10/10/80 split, and let her have her 10% on a pre-paid debit card. No interest, and when it's gone its gone.

[Malificent]

My ex-wife had serious inability to handle money. I'm not great but compared to her, I was Warren Buffett. So many of her issues came from poor lessons from family and childhood. At the core, she didn't understand how much pain it was causing me when we slipped deeper into debt because of meaningless credit card purchase X or non-scheduled ATM withdrawal Y.

Finally, I ended up hand writing her a three page letter detailing how much it was hurting me and how I didn't think we could keep going that way. That letter ended up shocking her into changing her behavior and really making an effort to get her spending under control. The fact that we're divorced had nothing to do with finances and more to do with us growing apart, so we at least had success there...

I don't know if writing a letter is the right answer, but I do think somehow you need to communicate to your wife how much pain and suffering this is causing you. Joint therapy? Putting guardrails only works if the other person has buy-in on those guardrails.

I wish you all the luck in the world, man. I know how hard this kind of situation is.

[GreenGoo]

Feel free to not answer these if they are too personal, I'm just curious.

Does Canada have credit scores similar to the US? If so, shouldn't hers be pretty well ruined? How does she keep getting new cards?

Can you move her to a debit card rather than credit card? If not, can you get added to the notifications for every charge on her card? We have that in my family (for fraud detection purposes) but it would work well for your situation too. Or even get added to the email for when it is time to pay her card so you can see the balance every month?

Sure, no problem.

a) To the best of my knowledge Canada and the US share the same credit system. It never occurred to me that they might be different. The CC companies are the same companies in most countries.
b) The problem is that I keep paying off the card and then not cancelling it. This is totally on me. At the same time, my wife is not a child and I am not her parent. Still, the answer is the CC has never been cancelled. I'm not even 100% sure it is cancelled right now. She sure as shit can't charge anything on it, but the account is still open as it contains the debt, and it continues to accrue interest.
c) The problem today (as opposed to 15 years ago) is that the charges are all reasonable/acceptable (well, I don't know what groceries cost. She assures me they are crippling us financially), it's the paying down the debt after that seems to be causing our current problems. I personally throw thousands at it at random times during the year, partly because I realize I'm hoarding the money I earn when it should be going towards the household. To be clear I pay a number of household expenses, including the mortgage. We don't have a car payment any more as the car is wholly owned now. It's also 10 years old and we probably need to be shopping for a new one.
d) All your advice is common sense and I agree with it. For reasons that I may or may not get into, I am not always available to be a diligent overseer.

[Kraken]

To give a clearer picture and a little less criticism to my wife, a significant part of the current debt is simply interest. Yes, I get that this is still her responsibility and she failed at it, but she did not spend us into this mess, she spent us into a much smaller mess and the insanely high interest rate did the rest.

This is very similar to the situation Wife created years ago. I was peripherally aware that she was spending a lot of money, but didn't learn about the crisis until bill collectors started calling, and by then she was in deep. Really, really deep, to where she couldn't even cover the minimum monthlies anymore. We didn't have the cash to bail her out, so the only recourse was to move the debt from those usurious credit cards to our low-interest HELOC, effectively extending our mortgage by four years.

The price of making myself half-responsible for her debt via the HELOC was taking control of her credit card bills. The statement comes to me every month, and I take the payment out of her checking account. If there isn't enough money to cover the payment, she hands over her cards to me until the balance is back to 0. That has mostly worked, although it makes things abstract for her -- she charges crap willy-nilly and once a month all her money disappears...which means she has to charge more, because all her money disappeared. Plus I do not enjoy opening her statement each month one little bit, because it's perpetually on the edge of disaster. She skirts the law by having another checking account for her non-job income (teaching and freelance), and she has opened a couple of small credit cards that I don't control. So I run the official economy while she runs an unauthorized shadow economy on her own. There have not been any serious crises since the Big One, as she ultimately has to bail herself out, but minor cash-flow crises are still a near-monthly routine that it's up to me to solve.

She earns 90% of our income and spends 110% of it, so I don't have a lot of leverage. I survive on the pittance that I earn and a few crumbs from her table. Maybe your 50/50 split would give you a stronger enforcer position...but it would mean taking on a new monthly headache.

[Smoove_B]

The problem with this is that if the person in question has the ability to spend beyond the 10%, they will. As written above, getting rid of the means by which they can generate unbridled expenses is the only way. You could do the 10/10/80 split, and let her have her 10% on a pre-paid debit card. No interest, and when it's gone its gone.

Everyone (SEE: RM9) makes fun of me because I use cash. However, this is part of the reason - when it's gone, it's gone. My wife and I share a credit card that is used for food, gas, household incidentals and anything online that requires the use of a credit card. Big ticket items (like a new washer) go on the credit card. Family vacations? Credit card.

Anything that we would want as individuals that might be labeled as fun, frivolous or a "luxury"? Cash. We each have a weekly cash "allowance" and when that's gone, it's gone. Alternatively, if you don't spend it, sock it away so you can splurge on something bigger in the future. For example, I had cash left over this week, so I just picked up a STEAM wallet card and purchased myself FarCry Primal. Now that $20 cash is gone and hopefully I don't need it for something else. Typically I just sock away that extra cash and use it when I go to a convention, want an absurd board game or need to re-group after being tossed out of a bar in upstate NY.

Regardless, this works because both my wife and I have the discipline to follow this method and not just whip out a credit or debit card when we really, really, really want something but don't have the cash to pay for it. If either of us just felt that reaching for a credit card was the right answer and we'd "pay for it later", this would not work. For the record, when we were first married, my wife was not on board with this method and very much into the "pay for it later" philosophy. After some discussions and seeing how having a savings mindset benefited us both (by being able to financially respond to whatever was happening without going into debt), we're now on the same page.

[GreenGoo]

She earns 90% of our income and spends 110% of it, so I don't have a lot of leverage. I survive on the pittance that I earn and a few crumbs from her table. Maybe your 50/50 split would give you a stronger enforcer position...but it would mean taking on a new monthly headache.

Thanks so much for writing Kraken. Our situations are nothing alike from a practical standpoint, but there is a lot of overlap in terms of who holds the leverage and things of that nature. I have some personal issues that I'm not going to go into right now that make being married to me extremely difficult, and mean that she can't always rely on me on a daily basis, although she knows I'll save her eventually.

It's definitely part of why this continues to happen despite some obvious answers like taking away her cc's and overseeing all finances all the time. My own expenses are all automated so that if I'm not available to oversee my own finances, they get taken care of by the robots. I've even set up balance insurance on my one CC, in case something happens and I miss a payment (I have a fixed payment auto payment so even this can't actually happen unless my account ran out of money) or can't pay for whatever reason. While that sounds ominous my credit rating is extremely good and I only pay insurance on my CC balance if I carry a balance, which is very rare. My rating is extremely good because I take these precautions.

[LawBeefaroni]

Options (once the current crisis is handled):

Credit freeze. Put a credit freeze on the wife (she'll have to agree). That will stop her getting new cards.

Use one account for paycheck direct deposit. Then pay all credit cards off in full each payday. If you have different paydays, pick one. When your statement is balance consistently greater than your actual balance, you'll know you're doing this right.

If you can't afford to pay off all cards on a given payday, freeze the cards until you can.

Simplify if possible. Get down to one or two cards. It's easier to manage and harder for her to hide debt from herself.


Also, sorry to hear GG. Hang in there. It sounds like on an intellectual level you get it's not the end of the world but I know how this can be crushing emotionally and a huge stressor.

[GreenGoo]

I'm not skipping posts or ignoring advice. I'm working and trying to deal with this on the side. It's also a major stress for me and I admit that I only look at it straight on when I have the strength and the resolve to work on it. Otherwise I just look at it obliquely from the corner of my eye. Which means I'm not being thorough, even just here reading the thread.

[GreenGoo]

Options (once the current crisis is handled):

Credit freeze. Put a credit freeze on the wife (she'll have to agree). That will stop her getting new cards.

Use one account for paycheck direct deposit. Then pay all credit cards off in full each payday. If you have different paydays, pick one. When your statement is balance consistently greater than your actual balance, you'll know you're doing this right.

If you can't afford to pay off all cards on a given payday, freeze the cards until you can.

Simplify if possible. Get down to one or two cards. It's easier to manage and harder for her to hide debt from herself.

Good advice. The real problem is that I simply stop looking, not that she's hiding. Well, not that I know of anyway. She did get herself a cc without my knowledge years ago, but to the best of my knowledge that behaviour has stopped. I should probably run a credit check on her (and me, while I'm at it) to see where things lie right now.

You guys can remind me if I haven't reported back in a week or so. If you want.

[LawBeefaroni]

Also, sorry to hear GG. Hang in there. It sounds like on an intellectual level you get it's not the end of the world but I know how this can be crushing emotionally and a huge stressor.

Just so you don't miss my edit.

Going to one Bank account and just a few cards makes it easier to track. Not in a "gotcha" way but in a "see what's happening here?" way. Every payday should be a day for quick assessment of finances.


One thing that's been nice for me is I have a bookmark folder with my cards and payments due. I just go down the list and pay each one. Then I review the bank accounts.

[LordMortis]

One thing that's been nice for me is I have a bookmark folder with my cards and payments due. I just go down the list and pay each one. Then I review the bank accounts.

I can't speak for others but I have one card that I use, one active credit union account, one work retirement account, one personal retirement account. I check these obsessively. I pay my recurring bills on the week of the 15th of each month. I've lived with others doing things their way. I don't know how they do it and they don't understand why I do it my way. I submit to their way and then they complain to me about things going wrong because the banks can't get their numbers right. Living alone, I'm back to my way.

I don't know how to budget. I know how to see means and then align my expectation to live within them and then keep a constant monitor... Or to do the math and freak out that I can't do it.

If I had a prescription, it would be for the other to spend 5 minutes a day, every day, reviewing accounts but OO is quick to tell me, that is a freak's way to add too much stress, and it is no way to do things. You need a budget. I think a budget would drive me batty.

As 250 plus pound gamer who desperately wants to believe he is a former smoker I know compulsive behavior. I feel for someone who has the compulsion to give their monetary security away in search of a different compensation.

[GreenGoo]

Thanks Lawbeef.

While I'm sure I haven't made any comments to the contrary, just a reminder that my wife is a good person and I'm very lucky to have her for a partner. She is just completely incapable of managing money in a way that I never knew was possible, and even today, with all the evidence, I just cannot fathom how basic math can be beyond someone to this effect.

The answer of course is that it has nothing to do with math and everything to do with how people view the connection between their life and the dollars and cents on a balance sheet. For some people there just isn't a connection. At. All. They are unrelated and they get mad if you try to explain it to them.

[Kraken]

My own expenses are all automated so that if I'm not available to oversee my own finances, they get taken care of by the robots. I've even set up balance insurance on my one CC, in case something happens and I miss a payment (I have a fixed payment auto payment so even this can't actually happen unless my account ran out of money) or can't pay for whatever reason. While that sounds ominous my credit rating is extremely good and I only pay insurance on my CC balance if I carry a balance, which is very rare. My rating is extremely good because I take these precautions.

Not quite true for me, but almost. I like to joke that if I died tomorrow my life would go on without me for months. And the last time I checked my credit score it was a perfect 850...which is pretty funny, considering my annual income struggles to reach five figures and doesn't always succeed. I could borrow my way to wealth!

[RunningMn9]

Everyone (SEE: RM9) makes fun of me because I use cash. However, this is part of the reason - when it's gone, it's gone.

That's not why we make fun of you.

For all practical purposes, we operate in exactly the same way. You implement the philosophy using cash, I implement the philosophy electronically. In both cases, when a dollar is spent, the dollar is gone. The electronic process was made vastly easier with the glorious YNAB app, that we both use. There are no more surprises. There is no more opening the credit card bill and then figuring out how to deal with it.

At the moment the transaction is made, the money is gone. The credit card bill is paid in full every month. Of course, this also works because neither one of us is opening credit cards without the other one knowing, running up debt. If that's a possibility, my system would fail instantly.

[RunningMn9]

The real problem is that I simply stop looking

100% of the time that I do this, problems develop within my financial empire. That is a major advantage of Smoove's method - there is no looking outside of looking in your wallet. It's been important to me to know WHAT the money is being spent on though, just as much as that it was spent. And I feel that is the strength of the YNAB system. It's much easier to analyze spending patterns and find opportunities for improvement when you are relying on a detailed written record rather than someone's memory of their spending habits over the past 6 months.

I spend less than 10 minutes a day reviewing and organizing all transactions from the day before. Everything is always paid, and every problem that might start to develop is identified within 24 hours of it starting. It's been working rock solid for about 10 years now, and has dramatically reduced stress.

[Smoove_B]

That is a major advantage of Smoove's method - there is no looking outside of looking in your wallet.

Yeah, it's probably not a method you could use to figure out how to keep a better budget as your cash allowance is completely untraceable (unless you keep receipts for everything - "We do not need to bring ink and paper into this"). I'm a huge proponent of figuring out where the money is going - absolutely, as in my experience, that's usually a major contributor to the problem. And of course, that's magnified when you don't need to think about that for 29 days a month and then you're suddenly hit with the, "How the hell did I spend that much money this month?" account statement.

However, I can appreciate that some people might get resentful or suspicious that you're tracking every.single.dollar that's being spent, which is why I have the weekly cash allowance. It doesn't matter what you do with it or how you spend it. Treat yourself. Hoard it. It's a token amount of cash money that can be used as you sit fit without thinking someone is going to be asking you what you did with it.

The credit or debit card then becomes the itemized accountant of record then, documenting all of your financial deeds (and misdeeds). Here, you can quickly figure out if there are things being purchased on credit that should be purchased with your own "fun money".

My method works (I think) because it allows for both collective savings and the ability to have an individual cash slush account that's not subject to budgeting.

[RunningMn9]

However, I can appreciate that some people might get resentful or suspicious that you're tracking every.single.dollar that's being spent, which is why I have the weekly cash allowance.

The budget includes a bucket for this. It is set to $X. As long as the balance is always >= 0, I couldn't care less what it's spent on. Take it out as cash and spend it on hookers. We cool. Just don't spend $X + 1. That's when the auditors show up.

[coopasonic]

c) The problem today (as opposed to 15 years ago) is that the charges are all reasonable/acceptable (well, I don't know what groceries cost. She assures me they are crippling us financially), it's the paying down the debt after that seems to be causing our current problems. I personally throw thousands at it at random times during the year, partly because I realize I'm hoarding the money I earn when it should be going towards the household.

I know I cut out a bunch of stuff, but this particular bit makes it sound like you are contributing to the problem. If she is making reasonable expenditures and building up debt at ridiculous interest while, at the same time, you are hoarding cash, then it sounds like you aren't pulling your weight. The costs of groceries aren't crippling your household financially, they are crippling her financially because you are hoarding cash rather than paying your share.

[RunningMn9]

I know I cut out a bunch of stuff, but this particular bit makes it sound like you are contributing to the problem. If she is making reasonable expenditures and building up debt at ridiculous interest while, at the same time, you are hoarding cash, then it sounds like you aren't pulling your weight. The costs of groceries aren't crippling your household financially, they are crippling her financially because you are hoarding cash rather than paying your share.

Not sure that this is really a constructive way to phrase it.

However, one thing to look at post-crisis is a much more thorough look at how to improve both communication and joint financial planning. If she got in trouble with what appear to be reasonable purchases, but as a result she is mired in a debt death spiral, something is clearly amiss.

At the end of the day, you've got one household with one pile of money. You've got a system which pretends that you've got two piles of money, but that's a fiction. Legally, it's one pile of money. You've got to treat it that way and figure out how to manage it as a team.

[coopasonic]

Not sure that this is really a constructive way to phrase it.

I'm not known for subtlety.

If I were circumspect my point might be missed and since most the last page has been about how to control her spending, when it turns out her spending may not even be the problem, I think the point needs to be made clearly.

[RunningMn9]

when it turns out her spending may not even be the problem, I think the point needs to be made clearly.

I don't think we know that. To be honest, I interpreted GG's post as a way to alleviate the assault on his wife, rather than a "Hey, actually her spending is totally reasonable!".

[GreenGoo]

when it turns out her spending may not even be the problem, I think the point needs to be made clearly.

I don't think we know that. To be honest, I interpreted GG's post as a way to alleviate the assault on his wife, rather than a "Hey, actually her spending is totally reasonable!".

It's mostly this. Guilt over knowing I could have prevented this, guilt over criticizing my wife in public, being unsure if I'm seeing things clearly, realizing I'm not perfect and not wanting to appear like I think I'm perfect and she's the only one who's flawed.

As for hoarding, if you recall, I pay a significant part of the expenses, including the mortgage, and there is no car payment (which is usually the second biggest expense for a family, after the mortgage). I'm also the only person saving for retirement (although she has a pension. I also have one), saving for the kids education, paying the cable bill and internet bills (both of which are too high for what we get), the celphone bills, etc, etc. I hoard money AFTER the bills that are solely (as agreed) my responsibility are paid. I ALSO use that money to put the occasional payment on my wife's CC. I pay for the kids' dental (with insurance I get a portion of this back), eye glasses, other incidentals. I regularly give my CC to my wife for specific purposes. I offered to pay for her to go on a small weekend vacation to see her favourite musician (John Mayer) and the band he's being touring with (Grateful Dead). I do that semi-regularly. She went to NY and when she got back I asked her how much it cost so I could write her a cheque. Somehow she never told me so I just wrote her a cheque for a thousand dollars. Later I found out that that didn't cover it. So instead of being honest and getting the whole thing paid for (with no passive aggresiveness from me), she held back and just added to her CC debt, because what I gave her didn't cover it. Presumably guilt and/or worried I might criticize her for spending so much held her back, but in this case I was straight up offering to pay for my wife to go and enjoy herself with other fans she's made friends with. We're kind of a mess.

Basically you witness the entirety of my disposable income spending when you see me struggling to decide whether to buy a game for 10 bucks or wait for it to hit 5. And if I don't play the game for 100+ hours I feel like I spent that 5 bucks unwisely. My issues with money are a direct result of emergencies like the one going on right now. I can't let go of money because I might need it when we get sued so we don't lose the house. It's not entirely rational, obviously.

edit: Couple of small adds.

[Zaxxon]

Well shit. Now I really hope ItB grabs you...

[Blackhawk]

Thanks for discussing this so openly. It's no secret that I struggle with money. It's 90% situational for me (disability, two kids on well under 20k), but I also know it is 10% less-than-ideal management on my own behalf. The last couple of pages have been educational.

FWIW, eleven years ago when the divorce happened, I discovered that I was in collections for five different debts, and that one major debt I'd believed was being handled was so far behind that I was literally weeks from going to jail over it. My credit score was so bad that it wasn't even worth the effort to apply for anything. I spent the last decade finding ways to fix that. Every single debt was paid off within two years, save for my student loans, which are under forbearance. I kept myself completely out of debt, kept everything timely, and now I'm sitting on a credit score that, while it's not amazing, is well within the 'good' range (mid-700s), which is as high as I can realistically get it without more income. Of course, I can't afford to take on any more expenses, so the score isn't doing me a lot of good, but at least I get to throw away a stack of credit card offers every day (I have one card, which I use as a charge-and-pay-this-week tool.)

Things are getting tougher. My income is creeping up, while expenses are jumping up. I've got far less 'free' money every month than I did five years ago - like, probably 90% less on a good month, and I'm always playing Battle of the Bulge with emergency expenses. I'm one car breakdown or infected tooth from disaster, but that's been true for a decade. It's frustrating, and easily the biggest source of stress in my life. I'm not broke, but I'm not improving my situation, either.

And yet I still buy stuff I don't need. Not often, but not never, either.

[Blackhawk]

Also, you're all rich!

[GreenGoo]

Also, you're all rich!

Yeah, I know, Blackhawk. You won't find me denying how well off I have it. My life is amazing from many perspectives, not just financially and while I'm a smart guy and occasionally worked hard, I feel like Homer when viewed through Grimey's eyes.

I am constantly impressed with how well you do Blackhawk despite being stretched so thin.

[GreenGoo]

Well shit. Now I really hope ItB grabs you...

Hah. My point was not that I'm poor and can't afford it. I am *not* poor and I most certainly *can* afford it. My point was that I feel like I can't be frivolous when spending money on myself because my family might need it. Spending money on my own wants and desires is a cardinal sin in my eyes.

I don't know if you're kidding or not, but seriously don't worry about your recommendation. I realize you're not going to lose sleep over it or anything, but don't sweat it even a little. Plus the game is good, I knew it was good and it was only whether I should buy it now rather than later that I was trying to decide. Well that and whether Dead Cell might be the better switch game, but that has nothing to do with money.

[Zaxxon]

Oh, I was being a little sarcastic. But I'm not being sarcastic when I agree that Blackhawk is amazing. You work magic, sir.

[GreenGoo]

If it helps I'm pretty sure my credit rating has never been above the mid 700's, and it wouldn't surprise me to find that it is somewhere in the 600's. Over the last 20 years I was semi-regularly late on a payment or, missed 1 or even 2 before paying it off in full. Neglectful rather than unable or unwilling.

My point is that I would be more than satisfied with a mid 700 rating, and I didn't have to pull myself out from under crippling debt with a pittance (no insult intended!) of an income. Nice work blackhawk.

[Blackhawk]

I am constantly impressed with how well you do Blackhawk despite being stretched so thin.

I'm not sure I do as well as it seems I do. Every month (like right now, in an excel sheet I'm taking a breather from), I struggle to figure out how to stay above zero for another 30 days. FWIW, this month I won't be above zero. I can make it up next month, and for now I can manage because one of the kids hasn't spent his allowance in a year, and it's built up a small buffer in the bank. When I do get a windfall, there are so many things that are worn out or broken that need replaced that it barely makes a dent. A few months ago I got a couple of thousand from something that I had no idea I was owed. A chunk went for a new bed because I could no longer sleep in my old one. Another chunk replaced things like a new frying pan (old one was badly warped), a new cookie sheet (old one was so old that everything stuck), a pair of new shorts, new socks and underwear, a new toaster (old one had no handles and one side didn't work), three used tires, an oil change - that sort of thing. I went through a fraction of the 'needed' list.

Then I went and spent ~$300 going to GenCon. Which was moronic, and I'm beating myself up for it. I should have dumped that into the account, especially as my living situation is on the verge of changing, and the new situation will likely be more expensive for a while until things settle down.

And it's giving me a splitting headache.

[GreenGoo]

No one thinks your life is a cakewalk. We know what a struggle it is. That's why we're so impressed with your efforts.

[Kraken]

Most of us grapple with money issues on some scale. Even though I don't earn diddly myself, together Wife and I are in the top 10%, and in our best years we approach the top 8% (says wiki). Our hovel is run down and WIfe needs a billion dollars worth of dental work, so there's never enough money for everything. But we eat like royalty because I have the luxury of time to cook plus an adequate grocery budget. We enjoy the occasional semi-fancy bottle of wine, go out to dinner once a week, swing a modest vacation or two every year or two, have two cars in good repair when we could get by with one, have decent retirement accounts and enough short-term savings to handle ordinary emergencies...and we appreciate what we've got, because we have spent our lives playing by the rules and working hard for it, and we've never suffered a major health crisis, a divorce, children, or any of the other pitfalls that can ruin couples.

It makes me wonder how 90% of Americans get by on less, because we aren't rich by any reasonable definition of that word.

I needed a new pair of not-jeans so that I can go to a work function next month. I waited until I could hit Bob's Store with a coupon and a rewards payout, picked out a pair on sale that were coupon-eligible (because couponing at Bob's is a game with a ton of rules), and got some Dockers for $11. I make a budget and balance my checkbook (kids, ask your grandparents) every month. I clip grocery coupons. I have loyalty cards for nearly every restaurant we visit. These are not rich-people habits.

Then I read Blackhawk's posts and feel like a Rockefeller (kids, ask your great-grandparents).

[Blackhawk]

And I think of my childhood, and I feel like a Rockefeller myself. I may not be swinging on a star, but I've had it far worse.

[RunningMn9]

I hoard money AFTER the bills that are solely (as agreed) my responsibility are paid.

The important point I want to make to couples in your situation is that you are living a fiction. There aren’t expenses that she’s responsible for and expenses you are responsible for. You are married and you have a family. There are only expenses that you both are responsible for, whether you guys want to admit it or not.

It might be better to develop a plan that understands that crucial fact.

[Zaxxon]

Amensies. Although lots of people operate as GG, so I'm not throwing stones. I just don't personally understand it.

[GreenGoo]

I hoard money AFTER the bills that are solely (as agreed) my responsibility are paid.

The important point I want to make to couples in your situation is that you are living a fiction. There aren’t expenses that she’s responsible for and expenses you are responsible for. You are married and you have a family. There are only expenses that you both are responsible for, whether you guys want to admit it or not.

It might be better to develop a plan that understands that crucial fact.

No offense Rmn9 but that's gibberish in the context you're implying, and obvious given the nature and laws that apply to marriage.

Parents divide up responsibilities all the time. When you agree to drop off Ricky at karate and your wife agrees to pick up Sally after soccer, no one thinks that's unreasonable, even though you both go to jail for child abandonment if only one of you decides to not bother. Despite that, no one feels like they need to "pick up the kids together" because they are both responsible.

Of course we are both responsible, that's why I save every dollar I can because I know that somehow paying the expenses she agreed to involves going into massive consumer debt, while paying the expenses I agreed to involves hoarding every dollar that gets near me, SO I CAN PAY HER (the bills she's agreed to pay) EXPENSES as well.

Unless you both sign the cheque and bring it to the bank, only one of you is paying a bill. Does your wife watch you click through your nightly/weekly/monthly banking? If not, how is that any different than you being responsible for paying the bills, and her not, despite you both being responsible?

So sure, I'm responsible. She's responsible. We're both responsible. Great. "Honey, did you pay the water and electricity bill this month? Yes dear." is how we operate. Obviously, that's not working. Suggesting that it can't work like that is...insane. You yourself almost certainly operate like that, except the money is pooled instead of split.

Her "job" as part of the shared fiscal responsibilities in this family is to pay the water bill and buy groceries and not accrue tens of thousands of dollars in consumer debt doing it. I don't think that's unreasonable.

And for the record, we don't have separate accounts because some money is hers and some is mine. We have separate accounts so she can't, oops, accidentally spend everything in all the accounts. As I've stressed with her repeatedly, it's not *my* money. It's the family's money and it's there to be used for the family. All she has to do is talk to me and the money is available for WHATEVER she's spending it on, although obviously I get to have a say in that, just as with any two couples who share accounts.

[Blackhawk]

Is the split, as it stands now, equitable to your relative incomes?

[GreenGoo]

Is the split, as it stands now, equitable to your relative incomes?

Not really. Obviously I feel I cover the lion's share, but that's only because things like clothes and food are not closely tracked and are highly variable. She works weekends and is home all day every day during the week, so she does the daily shopping, back to school stuff etc.

With that said, I have made it perfectly clear that when/if things exceed her ability to handle them with her account, my account exists solely to service the family expenses. For reasons that I can and can't predict, she believes she can handle things even when she can't, and is reluctant to approach me. And yes, I realize that that makes it appear to the readers at home that I am unapproachable, and sometimes, perhaps, I am not approachable. I mean that sometimes I'm going to give her shit for spending too much. What couple doesn't fight over how much to spend on some things? Despite that appearance, I have made it very clear, many, many times (we've been married almost twenty years now), that she can and should speak to me in a nearly consequence free environment if things are getting out of her ability to control. If that sounds like she needs to ask my permission to spend more money than she makes, well, in some ways she has proven that I *have to* behave as that gate keeper, even if I don't want that job and certainly don't lord it over her. She doesn't have to ask permission. She does have to form a group consensus. She chooses to bury herself in debt rather than approach me in any significant way.

I saw this with much love and only a little bitterness, but I don't think I've ever had more difficulty communicating with someone in my life. We are horrible communicators with each other and she's not interested in professional help so we just live with it.

So...that's fun.

But to answer your question Blackhawk, the answer is mostly yes. The things she agreed to pay are always more than I expect when I look at them more closely, but always less than she implies when I don't. In the end it's very close to 50/50 expense-wise (assuming we don't count the retirement savings, kids' education saving as expenses) and our salaries are very close to equal. If we do count saving money for retirement and education, it's not even close and I easily cover the lion's share.

We spend and waste a shitton on food. No question. We throw out so much food it's insane. I don't cook and don't step into the kitchen except to eat and clean the dishes. I don't feel like I can question the food expenses and she makes it clear by becoming angry and aggressive if I try that I should not. That's her realm and it feels too much like a 1950's husband telling his kitchen bound wife what she's allowed to do in her realm. I'm at work and she's home all day every weekday, so there is some traditional gender roles at play there. She would welcome a little help in the kitchen (but not 50/50) but that wouldn't change her opinion that I shouldn't be sticking my nose in there financially, whether that's deciding what to buy or just general budgeting.