Game of Thrones Season 7

msteelers · Post by **msteelers** » Wed Aug 30, 2017 11:24 am

Is going to the commanders worth the risk? Telling the commanders to disobey their queen seems like a good way to get captured and eventually killed.

McNutt · Post by **McNutt** » Wed Aug 30, 2017 11:31 am

I can't figure out what he's going to do either.

Jaime is such an interesting character. We love him even though he threw a kid out of a window with zero emotion. I repeat, he tried to murder a little boy! What the hell is wrong with us for rooting for him?

Post by **ImLawBoy** » Wed Aug 30, 2017 11:43 am

He's a redemption story. We root for the character he's become, not the character he started out as.

Captain Caveman · Post by **Captain Caveman** » Wed Aug 30, 2017 11:46 am

ImLawBoy wrote:He's a redemption story. We root for the character he's become, not the character he started out as.

He hasn't tried to kill any kids lately, but until very recently he's still been banging his evil sister. So I'd say his redemption is still a work in progress.

Post by **ImLawBoy** » Wed Aug 30, 2017 11:48 am

Captain Caveman wrote:
ImLawBoy wrote:He's a redemption story. We root for the character he's become, not the character he started out as.
He hasn't tried to kill any kids lately, but until very recently he's still been banging his evil sister. So I'd say his redemption is still a work in progress.

I didn't say his redemption story was complete yet.

It will become complete when he fulfills the prophecy.

El Guapo · Post by **El Guapo** » Wed Aug 30, 2017 11:50 am

msteelers wrote:Is going to the commanders worth the risk? Telling the commanders to disobey their queen seems like a good way to get captured and eventually killed.

Depends, I guess. If he goes to already mustered forces (like, whatever's left of the Lannister army after the 'loot train attack'), and tells them to march now, he might be able to get them going before they know that they are disobeying the Queen.

Regardless, there's definitely risk, but Jaime knows that what Cersei is doing is endangering everyone, so doing nothing and just riding north seems less than ideal as well. And Jaime does have some authority as basically the crown's leading general - seems likely that many people (especially much of the military) might well obey him over Cersei. Actually I suppose one option would be to try to muster forces in / around the capital and basically launch a coup.

Or possibly send ravens to commanders he knows / trusts (who haven't been recently incinerated by a dragon) to muster and rally to his command.

My guess is that show-wise he's going to ride north by himself. Although, given the Valunqar thing and the need to finish up two wars (for the Iron Throne and for the living) in six episodes, I guess it's also possible that Jaime will launch a civil war to depose Cersei, will succeed and kill her (over 1 - 2 episodes), and then march north with whatever forces he has left.

McNutt · Post by **McNutt** » Wed Aug 30, 2017 11:55 am

You think Jaime will do something that would lead to Cersei's death, as well as his unborn child's?

Jaymann · Post by **Jaymann** » Wed Aug 30, 2017 12:01 pm

Captain Caveman wrote:
ImLawBoy wrote:He's a redemption story. We root for the character he's become, not the character he started out as.
He hasn't tried to kill any kids lately, but until very recently he's still been banging his evil sister. So I'd say his redemption is still a work in progress.

And don't forget slaying the King he was pledged to protect.

El Guapo · Post by **El Guapo** » Wed Aug 30, 2017 12:01 pm

It is pretty widely believed at this point that Jaime will fulfill the part of Cersei's prophecy that ends in her death.

The unborn child thing complicates it a bit. One possibility is that Cersei was faking the pregnancy (in an attempt to keep Jaime loyal). Or possibly she could miscarry (or depending on the time frame, have the child first). Or Jaime could depose / capture Cersei, and the death might come later.

El Guapo · Post by **El Guapo** » Wed Aug 30, 2017 12:02 pm

Jaymann wrote:
Captain Caveman wrote:
ImLawBoy wrote:He's a redemption story. We root for the character he's become, not the character he started out as.
He hasn't tried to kill any kids lately, but until very recently he's still been banging his evil sister. So I'd say his redemption is still a work in progress.
And don't forget slaying the King he was pledged to protect.

Yeah but killing said king was the right thing to do, even accounting for the oathbreaking.

Combustible Lemur · Post by **Combustible Lemur** » Wed Aug 30, 2017 12:03 pm

hepcat wrote:Was Littlefinger listening in on that scene between Arya and Sansa? I don't recall seeing anything that indicated that.

Combustible Lemur wrote:
hepcat wrote:
gameoverman wrote: The first thing in the show was a white walker attack. This show has been telling a story from episode one.

gameoverman wrote:How or if the white walkers are defeated isn't the important bit,
I disagree with gameoverman 1 but I agree with gameoverman 2.
Then what was the first scene? A clever thief playing on old superstitions?

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I was under the impression he was saying that the show has always been the story of the White Walkers in that sentence. You read it a different way. One of us is wrong.

Well, in all the history of Westeros, GRRM is writing one of two White walker invasions, soooo. Unless you're arguing they are just a Maguffin, which in some ways they are.

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Kurth · Post by **Kurth** » Wed Aug 30, 2017 12:11 pm

McNutt wrote:I can't figure out what he's going to do either.

Jaime is such an interesting character. We love him even though he threw a kid out of a window with zero emotion. I repeat, he tried to murder a little boy! What the hell is wrong with us for rooting for him?

Except, now that that boy ended up being the incredibly annoying Bran "The Three Eyed Raven" Stark, do we really blame him? I'm willing to forgive and forget.

Zaxxon · Post by **Zaxxon** » Wed Aug 30, 2017 12:14 pm

El Guapo wrote:
Jaymann wrote:
Captain Caveman wrote:
ImLawBoy wrote:He's a redemption story. We root for the character he's become, not the character he started out as.
He hasn't tried to kill any kids lately, but until very recently he's still been banging his evil sister. So I'd say his redemption is still a work in progress.
And don't forget slaying the King he was pledged to protect.
Yeah but killing said king was the right thing to do, even accounting for the oathbreaking.

As was pushing Bran out, if your goal was to save the most lives.

Not that I like the move, but you could make a pretty compelling argument that keeping the incest and illegitimacy of the royal bloodline a secret, thus preventing or delaying inevitable war is worth more than one kid's life.

Of course it didn't play out that way, but...

Ralph-Wiggum · Post by **Ralph-Wiggum** » Wed Aug 30, 2017 12:21 pm

Perhaps Cersei dies in childbirth (if the she's actually pregnant) and so Jaime does indirectly fulfill the prophecy?

As for Jaime, my guess he's just riding north to meet up with Brienne et al., because something, something, moving the plot. It's a pretty dumb plan. There is the possibility, however, that he tries to rally the other Lannister bannermen not already in King's Landing, which Cersei mentioned in agreeing to fight the white walkers.

McNutt · Post by **McNutt** » Wed Aug 30, 2017 12:24 pm

Zaxxon wrote:As was pushing Bran out, if your goal was to save the most lives.

Not that I like the move, but you could make a pretty compelling argument that keeping the incest and illegitimacy of the royal bloodline a secret, thus preventing or delaying inevitable war is worth more than one kid's life.

Of course it didn't play out that way, but...

You might have a point if he hadn't been so smug about it, smiling and saying "the things I do for love" or whatever he said after he thought he had killed a child.

morlac · Post by **morlac** » Wed Aug 30, 2017 12:25 pm

Punisher wrote:
morlac wrote:
Punisher wrote: Well they could always scale back! I for one wouldn't know if they didn't film in those countries... Sure, I'd not be able to suspend disbelief if they filmed in Detroit, but there has to be "local" locations that are good enough... Just thinking that they are spending too much money where it's not needed and that is making them rush the episodes (story wise)...
Also, does HBO have any way of recouping that money outside of subscriptions? I guess that plays a part in it..

Yes you would and no there isn't. Making films/shows just does not work that way. I suppose they could CGI the whole thing on Green Screens but it would completely suck, take 3 years for 10 episodes and cost 5 times as much.

edit to add. :

Yes I believe HBO may be making a little side money on top of subscriptions:
https://www.google.com/search?biw=1920& ... ztbgSS6mzU
Didn't even think about merchandising.. I wonder how much of that they get and how much GRRM gets...

Good question. I would guess it depends on what it is. Anything with the likeness of something from the show and they probably get a bigger cut. IE John Snows face, or whatever they call him now.

Zaxxon · Post by **Zaxxon** » Wed Aug 30, 2017 12:32 pm

McNutt wrote:
Zaxxon wrote:As was pushing Bran out, if your goal was to save the most lives.

Not that I like the move, but you could make a pretty compelling argument that keeping the incest and illegitimacy of the royal bloodline a secret, thus preventing or delaying inevitable war is worth more than one kid's life.

Of course it didn't play out that way, but...
You might have a point if he hadn't been so smug about it, smiling and saying "the things I do for love" or whatever he said after he thought he had killed a child.

Well, Jaime's always hidden his insecurities behind smugness. He's a complex character, dude.

El Guapo · Post by **El Guapo** » Wed Aug 30, 2017 12:40 pm

Scuzz wrote:
El Guapo wrote:
The Meal wrote:
The essence as to what made the show watchable (and the books readable) is the internal consistency in such a complex world. Season 7 absolutely chucked that essence out the window. Take issue with the hyperbole of the article, but it's calling out the absolute flaw in S7, and what may ultimately ruin the series. I'm impressed the article was written without referencing other seemingly-headed-somewhere-but-ultimately-garbage programming (hello Lost, from what I've heard).
I will say that the struggles that the show has had bringing all of the threads and characters and whatnot together to a climax might suggest why GRRM has had so much trouble cranking out the final two books. Maybe it's easy to subvert expectations and kill off major characters in surprising ways and keep expanding the universe in an interesting way when there's plenty more pages / hours ahead. But when you need to bring all the major conflicts to a satisfying end (with so many freaking characters to handle), it gets more difficult.
This. I would think no matter how GoT resolves itself there will be unhappy people. And the show has moved from that talky planning scheming phase to the big payoff. There is no longer time to play anything for the long haul.

I do think GRRM got himself in this exact fix. He loved creating the world and scheming, he never did a lot of action.

Also, if one is cynical - GRRM has a self-interest in letting the show finish first. It's tough to resolve all this stuff, and by letting the show do it first, he can copy the parts that people like and change the parts that people don't like. And, if the resolution almost has to be disappointing to some degree, going second will probably cause his resolution to be judged less harshly.

Punisher · Post by **Punisher** » Wed Aug 30, 2017 1:01 pm

ImLawBoy wrote:
Captain Caveman wrote:
ImLawBoy wrote:He's a redemption story. We root for the character he's become, not the character he started out as.
He hasn't tried to kill any kids lately, but until very recently he's still been banging his evil sister. So I'd say his redemption is still a work in progress.
I didn't say his redemption story was complete yet. It will become complete when he fulfills the prophecy.

Did I miss the episode where his midichlorian count is revealed?

Punisher · Post by **Punisher** » Wed Aug 30, 2017 1:02 pm

El Guapo wrote: Also, if one is cynical - GRRM has a self-interest in letting the show finish first. It's tough to resolve all this stuff, and by letting the show do it first, he can copy the parts that people like and change the parts that people don't like. And, if the resolution almost has to be disappointing to some degree, going second will probably cause his resolution to be judged less harshly.

I think you mean copy the parts people hate and changing the parts people like.

gameoverman · Post by **gameoverman** » Wed Aug 30, 2017 2:14 pm

hepcat wrote:I was under the impression he was saying that the show has always been the story of the White Walkers in that sentence. You read it a different way. One of us is wrong.

I was pointing out that since the start, the white walkers situation has been looming over this show. They are like the Checkov's gun of this show. That's why this show could never be about just the characters, which I understand is the part a lot of people like best. There has always been plot happening and so the characters have a story to serve. While it's not most important whether the white walkers win or lose, it is very important that we the audience get that conflict resolved. That and what happens with the Iron Throne are the two biggest things that can not be left hanging when this show ends.

I had not read the books when this show started, I wasn't part of the fandom, so I had no idea what any of this GOT stuff was. Even so, all it took was one look at the wall and I realized A)that's got to have a story behind it and B)whatever that wall is meant to keep out is getting in before this is all over. Things have to change, the show can't stay in one gear forever, no matter how satisfying that gear might be.

About Jaime, I assumed he was heading north(his oath) and will see Tyrion. He can offer inside information on the goings on in the capital, that and Tyrion's support might buy him a lot up north. He himself has made clear he thinks Cersei can't win, now he's joining what he thinks is the winning side.

hepcat · Post by **hepcat** » Wed Aug 30, 2017 4:48 pm

gameoverman wrote: That's why this show could never be about just the characters, which I understand is the part a lot of people like best.

This show has spent at least 4 seasons proving you wrong, in my opinion. Look over this thread. The vast majority of the discussion has been about the characters and their motivations, fate, etc.. Not the white walkers.

Post by **ImLawBoy** » Wed Aug 30, 2017 4:55 pm

hepcat wrote:
gameoverman wrote: That's why this show could never be about just the characters, which I understand is the part a lot of people like best.
This show has spent at least 4 seasons proving you wrong, in my opinion. Look over this thread. The vast majority of the discussion has been about the characters and their motivations, fate, etc.. Not the white walkers.

But if you ignore the threat of the White Walkers, you're missing the hugely important subtext of the show, which is that all the machinations don't mean a thing if humanity can't band together to stop the undead.

RunningMn9 · Post by **RunningMn9** » Wed Aug 30, 2017 5:47 pm

Yeah, I thought it was understood that the show *seemed* to be about the characters and the Iron Throne.

But as pointed out - and I think it makes some sense - if this was to be a story about the characters and the Iron Throne, then it would have been a story about Robert's Rebellion.

Fundamentally, this story must actually be about the Great War. Why else tell a tale that coincides with the fate of the world...but have it be about something so trivial as who gets to sit on the throne until the dead come and take it?

gameoverman · Post by **gameoverman** » Wed Aug 30, 2017 5:51 pm

The characters are, and were, important there's no arguing against that. But the characters are and were always a means to an end. There is a story being told and the characters are but one tool the writers are using to tell it. It just so happens that these have been some really great characters, especially for a tv show, played by a great cast. So comparatively speaking, the show seems weighted towards being all about character when in reality it's all about the story. I think the disappointment mostly comes from the portion of the audience that is seeing that story take center stage whereas until this last season it's been more low key. But it's natural for the story to be front and center when you're getting to the end.

It's like growing crops. First you have your soil prep and planting stage. Then you have the watering/growing stage. Then it's harvest time. Now, on this show, it's harvest time. For those who enjoyed the planting stage or growing stage the most, too bad, get over it. I want to reap the harvest and so far it's looking good to me.

Punisher · Post by **Punisher** » Wed Aug 30, 2017 6:08 pm

hepcat wrote:
gameoverman wrote: That's why this show could never be about just the characters, which I understand is the part a lot of people like best.
This show has spent at least 4 seasons proving you wrong, in my opinion. Look over this thread. The vast majority of the discussion has been about the characters and their motivations, fate, etc.. Not the white walkers.

Perhaps we are just like the majority of Westeros... worried about the politics and intrigue and completely forgot about the real threat... the dead...

hepcat · Post by **hepcat** » Wed Aug 30, 2017 7:43 pm

not me, pal. I'm writing this from my underground bunker.

DD* · Post by DD* » Wed Aug 30, 2017 8:39 pm

You wankers can keep arguing about this, that, and the other one. Three words:

Undead. Fucking. Dragon!

hepcat · Post by **hepcat** » Wed Aug 30, 2017 8:54 pm

Three more words: aunt. nephew. love.

Zaxxon · Post by **Zaxxon** » Wed Aug 30, 2017 9:01 pm

Well he is the most eligible bachelor per family tradition.

EvilHomer3k · Post by **EvilHomer3k** » Wed Aug 30, 2017 9:32 pm

I don't think it's out of character for Jaime to head north alone. He is already 'betraying' his sister, the queen. He wouldn't further betray her by taking the Lannister army. He said he would go so he feels he has to.

Sectoid · Post by **Sectoid** » Thu Aug 31, 2017 12:36 pm

El Guapo · Post by **El Guapo** » Thu Aug 31, 2017 12:41 pm

EvilHomer3k wrote:I don't think it's out of character for Jaime to head north alone. He is already 'betraying' his sister, the queen. He wouldn't further betray her by taking the Lannister army. He said he would go so he feels he has to.

I don't see why not. First, Cersei effectively betrayed him first, by scheming with Euron behind his back, lying to everyone at the gathering about their plans (and leading him to promise to help fight up north), and then by threatening to kill him. Second, he considers himself bound to Cersei's promise (and I guess his promise) to help defend the North. Not sure why he would consider taking the Lannister armies (which are already promise-bound to defend the north) and leading them up north.

There are practical risks to that, of course, but I don't think that he would think of doing so as any type of betrayal.

Toe · Post by **Toe** » Thu Aug 31, 2017 12:55 pm

gameoverman wrote:The characters are, and were, important there's no arguing against that. But the characters are and were always a means to an end. There is a story being told and the characters are but one tool the writers are using to tell it. It just so happens that these have been some really great characters, especially for a tv show, played by a great cast. So comparatively speaking, the show seems weighted towards being all about character when in reality it's all about the story. I think the disappointment mostly comes from the portion of the audience that is seeing that story take center stage whereas until this last season it's been more low key. But it's natural for the story to be front and center when you're getting to the end.

The story I am interested in is who will win the game of thrones (which, btw, is front and center this season, as it has been in every season). Everything else is really a backdrop to that for me. Sure, if the night king wins no one will win the game, but if he doesn't, it still is really the main story the way I see it.

hepcat · Post by **hepcat** » Thu Aug 31, 2017 12:57 pm

Zaxxon wrote:Well he is the most eligible bachelor per family tradition.

Jeff V · Post by **Jeff V** » Thu Aug 31, 2017 1:01 pm

Toe wrote: The story I am interested in is who will win the game of thrones (which, btw, is front and center this season, as it has been in every season). Everything else is really a backdrop to that for me. Sure, if the night king wins no one will win the game, but if he doesn't, it still is really the main story the way I see it.

The Night King will win, then, not looking where he is sitting, discovers much to his surprise that one of the swords in the iron throne - the one that always pokes you in the ass when you sit - isn't iron at all, but dragon glass. As he disintegrates, the credits begin to roll.

A nonny mouse · Post by **A nonny mouse** » Thu Aug 31, 2017 1:31 pm

Ralph-Wiggum wrote:Perhaps Cersei dies in childbirth (if the she's actually pregnant) and so Jaime does indirectly fulfill the prophecy?

or Cersei dies in chidbirth giving birth to a dwarf, that she sees before dying.

El Guapo · Post by **El Guapo** » Thu Aug 31, 2017 1:42 pm

The Cersei-dying-in-childbirth theory is an interesting way of the prophecy being fulfilled (with younger-brother Jaime causing it by getting her pregnant), although I'm not sure how that's consistent with the parts of the prophecy that say that she will have three kids, or the part that says that the volunqar will wrap his hands around her throat.

McNutt · Post by **McNutt** » Thu Aug 31, 2017 2:21 pm

El Guapo wrote:with younger-brother Jaime causing it by getting her pregnant

Is he younger? I thought they were twins.

Post by **ImLawBoy** » Thu Aug 31, 2017 2:24 pm

El Guapo wrote:The Cersei-dying-in-childbirth theory is an interesting way of the prophecy being fulfilled (with younger-brother Jaime causing it by getting her pregnant), although I'm not sure how that's consistent with the parts of the prophecy that say that she will have three kids, or the part that says that the volunqar will wrap his hands around her throat.

/inserts Cheryl Tunt gif