Game of Thrones Season 7

[Jag]

Maybe he's just a pervert listening in, and also sad because he loves/lust after her too.

[McNutt]

I'm assuming enough was mined to outfit the Lannister army. As for the creation of the weapons, it's not smithing, just chipping and attaching a handle to it. It wouldn't take nearly as long to make a dragonglass spear as it would to make a traditional sword.

Speaking of dragonglass, do you have to make a killing blow with the weapon or can you just touch them with it?

[ImLawBoy]

Interesting article about this season's finale: The show that just ghosted everyone.

Spot on.

Thirded.

I hate the whole idea that people are ruining the show by analyzing it finding its flaws, but that article is hot garbage. From pretending like there were never flaws in its initial world building ("Imagine it as a magnifying glass, an icon with a plus and a minus. No matter how far you scaled in or out, its integrity held. There was no level of magnification where its world-building or its character-building would fail you. Just forever deeper and broader, amen and amen, like it would never end.") to acting like everyone knew that Sansa and Arya would never really kill one another (that's in the same vein as someone puting out five guesses at a possible twist in a movie, and when one of them happens, they say, "Called it!"), it's revisionism to fit a thesis.

Yes, there are problems with GoT the show, particularly the last season. No, there's nothing wrong with analyzing them (that's part of the fun of watching a show like this that has a huge fanbase). But it's hardly the terribly travesty that the over-the-top article makes it out to be.

[El Guapo]

I think the Sansa / Arya feud was real - the case that it was all planned seems weak to me. I think Arya, who knew that Sansa always wanted to be a lady / nobility, had "gone native" during her time in King's Landing, and become a disloyal schemer. She was worried that Sansa was going to turn on Jon (who Arya was close to) and try to push him out. Among other things, that was heightened when Arya heard the lords complaining about Jon (and saying that they should have picked Sansa as the leader), and Sansa did not defend Jon (although she didn't badmouth him either).

Meanwhile Sansa was naturally worried that Arya was now a psychopath who might murder her.

I think there are a couple key points that ultimately kept them from finally turning on each other. For Arya, I think it's her confrontation with Sansa, where she invites her to play the game of faces and asks Sansa if she thinks that someone other than Jon should be in charge. Arya has some truth-sensing capacity from her time with the faceless men, and I think by the end of it she's convinced that Sansa is not trying to push out Jon (which I think is the significant of her turning the dagger around and handing it to Sansa). I think if Sansa had failed Arya's test Arya might have killed her there.

For Sansa I think the key scene (what was pointed out above in this thread) is the motivations game with Littlefinger. She knows Arya has never wanted to be Lady of Winterfell, so the idea that Arya has that dark motivation doesn't make sense, so then she takes a fresh look at what Arya is doing, and at what Littlefinger was doing.

And there were obviously offscreen conversations as well. Arya clearly knew what was up beforehand in the hall scene, and Bran had to fill Sansa in at least (and probably Arya) on Littlefinger's dealings at some point before that hall meeting.

[hepcat]

I have to say that from my seat, it's nice to not have had any preconceived notions about this series and what it should've, could've or would've been.
I'm able to watch it for what it is.

I have never read the books, so I had no preconceived notions going in. Everything I stated above comes from watching the first 3 or 4 seasons, during which they established a show that was more about intrigue, diplomacy and Machiavellian characters whose motives weren't always apparent at first. There's been a marked tonal shift over the last few seasons. They've veered away from a character driven story to an event driven one. And the event just isn't that interesting to me. It's lost any semblance of subtly at this point. I'm watching it still out of a sense of loyalty and a desire to see how it wraps up, and I'm still enjoying the (diminishing) glimpses of what used to be, but it in my opinion, it has gone downhill rather rapidly these last few seasons.

[msteelers]

Interesting article about this season's finale: The show that just ghosted everyone.

I like this one better.

Game of Thrones is a story about contrasts: ice and fire, the living and the dead, the dicks and the dick-less. It’s also a show that opened with the threat of a White Walker invasion and the constant promise that winter was coming. Season Seven has delivered on both those threats and promises. Game of Thrones changed this season, but it was always going to change. Winter isn’t coming anymore; winter is here. The sprawling story we’ve been following for seven years is pulling back in on itself, contracting and combusting, and crashing into what was always going to be inevitable.

Game of Thrones has finally become the show it always promised it would be: a rousing fantasy adventure series with dragons and zombies. With its high stakes drama, glorious action set pieces, and thumping heart, it’s still better than 99% of the rest of television. It’s just not the show it used to be.

[Zaxxon]

I hate the whole idea that people are ruining the show by analyzing it finding its flaws, but that article is hot garbage.

...

Yes, there are problems with GoT the show, particularly the last season. No, there's nothing wrong with analyzing them (that's part of the fun of watching a show like this that has a huge fanbase). But it's hardly the terribly travesty that the over-the-top article makes it out to be.

There's been a marked tonal shift over the last few seasons. They've veered away from a character driven story to an event driven one. And the event just isn't that interesting to me. It's lost any semblance of subtly at this point.

This.

First, no one's 'ruining the show by analyzing it [and] finding its flaws.' The show's quality was ruined (to a point, the extent of which we can and will disagree about) by the writers/producers tossing out many of the elements of what made the show great in pursuit of a shorter-than-required, event-driven wrap-up schedule. You can disagree on that, but I believe you'll have a tough time making that case--there's simply far too much story being crammed into far too few episodes, and that's how we end up with Hyperloop transport and shitty characterization.

Second, I don't think it's even debatable that the quality of the core story itself--its earned suspension-of-disbelief, the believeability of characters' choices, and the impact of the 'major events' have all gone objectively downhill lately.

For whatever reason, HBO made a conscious decision to take the pace that they had followed for the first several seasons and amp it way the fuck up for the last two. Perhaps they wanted the show to end after 7.5 seasons for scheduling/contract reasons. Perhaps they thought viewership was going to drop. Maybe they just got tired of printing money. I don't know. But the fact that they made this decision, and that it had an objectively adverse impact on the quality of the show. Well, that's a fact, jack.

That doesn't mean I'm 'ruining the show' by pointing this out. Nor does it mean that the show has been ruined. But GoT 2016-2017 ain't GoT 2011-2015. It's a less mindful show, it's less representative of GRRM's telling of the tale, and it's less interesting to me (though still interesting enough to be immediately-upon-availability viewing!).

Game of Thrones has finally become the show it always promised it would be: a rousing fantasy adventure series with dragons and zombies. With its high stakes drama, glorious action set pieces, and thumping heart, it’s still better than 99% of the rest of television. It’s just not the show it used to be.

Meh. Was it going to contract? Sure. Was it a given that there were going to be dragon-zombie battles? Yes. Was it a given that the Hyperloop would find its way to Westeros on an every-episode basis? No. Was it a given that character deaths would lose their impact due to shitty writing? I don't think so. Was it a given that 'beloved' characters would survive ridiculous situations with nary a wink in nearly every episode? Nah.

YMMV.

[ImLawBoy]

First, no one's 'ruining the show by analyzing it [and] finding its flaws.'

I agree. That's why I started my post by saying I hated that. In fact, I specifically said it was fun to analyze the show for flaws.

I was saying that the linked article was terrible. It's not just pointing out flaws. It's saying that the show has become terrible. Specifically,

If the finale of the seventh season of Game of Thrones says anything, it is that this show has failed its fans, and has been doing so slowly for a long time.

. . . .

What do you do when they turn to you and ask what it all means, and why you have been doing this for so long? You stumble and gibber and with nothing else to offer, you say: absolute goddamn nonsense.

That's its main thesis and its final statement. I think that's over the top. I pointed out a couple of reasons why in my prior post.

Again, I never said we shouldn't criticize it. I specifically said it was fun to criticize. I enjoy criticism. But that doesn't mean I'm not going to disagree with bad criticism.

[Zaxxon]

Again, I never said we shouldn't criticize it. I specifically said it was fun to criticize. I enjoy criticism. But that doesn't mean I'm not going to disagree with bad criticism.

Got you. I misread your prior post. I also think the quoted article is over the top.

[The Meal]

Interesting article about this season's finale: The show that just ghosted everyone.

Spot on.

Thirded.

I hate the whole idea that people are ruining the show by analyzing it finding its flaws, but that article is hot garbage...

Yes, there are problems with GoT the show, particularly the last season. No, there's nothing wrong with analyzing them (that's part of the fun of watching a show like this that has a huge fanbase). But it's hardly the terribly travesty that the over-the-top article makes it out to be.

The essence as to what made the show watchable (and the books readable) is the internal consistency in such a complex world. Season 7 absolutely chucked that essence out the window. Take issue with the hyperbole of the article, but it's calling out the absolute flaw in S7, and what may ultimately ruin the series. I'm impressed the article was written without referencing other seemingly-headed-somewhere-but-ultimately-garbage programming (hello Lost, from what I've heard).

[edit to add:] I mean scroll up to El Guapo's post "I think the Sansa / Arya feud was real..." In previous seasons it was worth thinking about these things, mulling them over in your head as to how that particular outcome came to pass. Now I can just write it off as Benjen Stark galloped by, yelled out, and gave Sansa the idea without even slowing down his horse.

[morlac]

Mostly I'm just pissed at the 18 month wait..... Regardless if the reasons HBO gives, I don't think it's necessary... unless they are just pushing it to give GRRM time to finish the last book.... In which case, we may never have a final season...

!8 months for roughly 9 hours of the most expensive show ever produced seems close to amazing imo. Movies with half that scope can take years to crank out. It has nothing to do with GRRM and everything to do with the insane logistics to pull this off.

[El Guapo]

I will say I'm annoyed about the shortened schedule for these last half-seasons, which to some degree has forced some of the problems with this season, and I'm still unclear the reasons for those fewer episodes - I feel like the only explanation I've heard is the CGI budget. The other thing I'm annoyed about is how much this season actually punted given that shortened schedule. My assumption going into this season was that the focus of this season would be on resolving the war for the Iron Throne, and the focus of next season would be the war with the white walkers.

Now we're in a position where we have to resolve both in six (perhaps long-ish) episodes, which is really hard to see how you do without some major rush jobs that plagued episodes this season.

That said, it's possible to take the criticisms a bit too far. Really only the last two episodes before this (especially Beyond the Wall) crossed into being actually bad. The other episodes this season (including this one, except for the horrid Theon crotch fight on the beach scene) were really good and enjoyable, if not up to the lofty heights of seasons prior (though the loot train battle episode is one of the better episodes of the show).

[El Guapo]

double post

[El Guapo]

The essence as to what made the show watchable (and the books readable) is the internal consistency in such a complex world. Season 7 absolutely chucked that essence out the window. Take issue with the hyperbole of the article, but it's calling out the absolute flaw in S7, and what may ultimately ruin the series. I'm impressed the article was written without referencing other seemingly-headed-somewhere-but-ultimately-garbage programming (hello Lost, from what I've heard).

I will say that the struggles that the show has had bringing all of the threads and characters and whatnot together to a climax might suggest why GRRM has had so much trouble cranking out the final two books. Maybe it's easy to subvert expectations and kill off major characters in surprising ways and keep expanding the universe in an interesting way when there's plenty more pages / hours ahead. But when you need to bring all the major conflicts to a satisfying end (with so many freaking characters to handle), it gets more difficult.

[Isgrimnur]

(including this one, except for the horrid Theon crotch fight on the beach scene)

That's my purse! I don't know you!

[McNutt]

Really only the last two episodes before this (especially Beyond the Wall) crossed into being actually bad.

I didn't like where the season was going, but it was still entertaining. You're right though, those two episodes were actually quite bad.

except for the horrid Theon crotch fight on the beach scene

I don't think I wrote about that scene, but it was terrible. Theon is nothing but a joke to the Ironborn and the idea that any would follow him is ridiculous.

[ImLawBoy]

Interesting article about this season's finale: The show that just ghosted everyone.

Spot on.

Thirded.

I hate the whole idea that people are ruining the show by analyzing it finding its flaws, but that article is hot garbage...

Yes, there are problems with GoT the show, particularly the last season. No, there's nothing wrong with analyzing them (that's part of the fun of watching a show like this that has a huge fanbase). But it's hardly the terribly travesty that the over-the-top article makes it out to be.

The essence as to what made the show watchable (and the books readable) is the internal consistency in such a complex world. Season 7 absolutely chucked that essence out the window. Take issue with the hyperbole of the article, but it's calling out the absolute flaw in S7, and what may ultimately ruin the series. I'm impressed the article was written without referencing other seemingly-headed-somewhere-but-ultimately-garbage programming (hello Lost, from what I've heard).

I am absolutely taking issue with the hyperbole of the article - I thought that was pretty clear. I also haven't shied away from criticism of the show, particularly this season. It's well deserved. Doesn't change that I think the linked article is pretty bad. I also do think that we're glossing over some logical inconsistencies (both in the show and the books) that did appear in the past, but I will admit I'm not going to do the research now to back that claim up. It certainly got a lot worse this season, but it wasn't a perfect world prior to this, despite the hyperbolic claims of the article.

[edit to add:] I mean scroll up to El Guapo's post "I think the Sansa / Arya feud was real..." In previous seasons it was worth thinking about these things, mulling them over in your head as to how that particular outcome came to pass. Now I can just write it off as Benjen Stark galloped by, yelled out, and gave Sansa the idea without even slowing down his horse.

That's partially on the show, and partially on the viewer. If you just assume all of the show is crap because some elements of it are crap, and refuse to give the show any benefit of the doubt that past seasons of goodwill might have built up, that's partially on you.

[Punisher]

Mostly I'm just pissed at the 18 month wait..... Regardless if the reasons HBO gives, I don't think it's necessary... unless they are just pushing it to give GRRM time to finish the last book.... In which case, we may never have a final season...

!8 months for roughly 9 hours of the most expensive show ever produced seems close to amazing imo. Movies with half that scope can take years to crank out. It has nothing to do with GRRM and everything to do with the insane logistics to pull this off.

Well, I'm not in the industry so I still don't get it.. Other hour long shows can come out regularly, like Walking Dead, the CW DC shows, etc... Yes they aren't as expensive, but I don't understand how expense = a lot more time.

I also don't know why they decided to end next season. It would have been better if they slowed the pace down and kept it going for a while...

[McNutt]

I believe the CGI is very time consuming.

[gameoverman]

On the Sansa/Arya thing, no I did not believe for a second it was real. The only thing that made sense was it was an act. It is true that Arya was a tomboy and Sansa was into the whole 'princess' thing and that meant they were at odds. But that was then, this is now. Does anyone really believe these sisters still think the same way as when they were kids? You don't recognize that they've both had enough life experience since then that they recognize the childish nature of their previous resentments? You don't think the loss of a large part of their family would cause them to cherish the remaining family all the more? Come on.

As far as any shift in tone or emphasis in the show goes, well yeah, and I like it. The story is being resolved, there has to be a shift. In the beginning it's all setup, who are these people and how do they connect to each other and the story. Then the middle part is when we see all the moves they make as they try to survive or triumph. Now we've reached the end, where we get the payoffs. Each of those three sections has a different job to do so you can't expect them to feel the same all the time.

That article uses Littlefinger's part as an example. The writer is overlooking a big element of that in their criticism. Littlefinger does not know the extent of what Bran sees. He got a hint of it before, but you could see he didn't know what to make of it. Does anyone really think LF would be staying there all this time if he knew what Bran could see? Haha, no. That's why he got played, that's why his spies couldn't help, he was up against an opponent who was armed with resources he could never imagine.

[hepcat]

The story is being resolved, there has to be a shift.

You're assuming the story was really about the White Walkers. For me, it wasn't.

[Nightwish]

About Ned and Baelish: The city guard was the biggest army in the citadel by far, and Stannis had the nearest army and was already marching to the city. Of course, chaos is a ladder and Stannis would never have given him land, so you might as well kill the guy who marries your girl. Also, it was interesting Sansa sorted out the Arryn accusations first and make him admit something to make sure he didn't have the Vale to go back to.

About Cersei's pregnancy: In the spoilers, there was mention of a scene that cleared out whether she was lying or not. It was cut, either for suspense or because they want to change it slightly or completely.

It's interesting that Cersei is now trusting and relying on: the Iron Bank, which her husband, her father and herself pissed off massively; a mercenary band that, in the books, has strong connections to the Targaryans; Euron Greyjoy, for fuck's sake. I can't imagine that working at all.
I can't imagine Tyrion and Jon being so dreadfully incompetent in the missing books.

Game of Thrones has finally become the show it always promised it would be: a rousing fantasy adventure series with dragons and zombies. With its high stakes drama, glorious action set pieces, and thumping heart, it’s still better than 99% of the rest of television.

Just no, on all accounts.

[ImLawBoy]

The story is being resolved, there has to be a shift.

You're assuming the story was really about the White Walkers. For me, it wasn't.

I get that it's missing the elements of the show that you enjoyed the most, but the show has always been about the White Walkers, at least in large part. Even when we went seasons with only a few mentions of them, hanging over all of the political machinations in Westeros was that none of it really mattered if they couldn't figure out how to deal with what's beyond the wall. All of the plotting and scheming were inevitably going to lead to two major wars - the one for the throne and the one for the living. It was questionable the order they were going to appear in, but they were both going to happen (unless you think that Baelish had a realistic chance at scheming his way to the Iron Throne).

It's interesting that Cersei is now trusting and relying on: the Iron Bank, which her husband, her father and herself pissed off massively; a mercenary band that, in the books, has strong connections to the Targaryans; Euron Greyjoy, for fuck's sake. I can't imagine that working at all.

The Iron Bank was pissed at not getting paid - they've been paid, so they love her again. The historical origins of the mercenaries aside, I doubt any of them currently care about much beyond getting paid. Euron is being used to get her mercenaries to the continent. It's questionable whether she'd actually follow through on marriage - she's been known to say one thing and do another.

[morlac]

(including this one, except for the horrid Theon crotch fight on the beach scene)

That's my purse! I don't know you!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tJl3ZAg6mj0


I LOLed and said that exact thing watching Sunday night with my wife. One of our favorite quotes from anything.

[morlac]

Mostly I'm just pissed at the 18 month wait..... Regardless if the reasons HBO gives, I don't think it's necessary... unless they are just pushing it to give GRRM time to finish the last book.... In which case, we may never have a final season...

!8 months for roughly 9 hours of the most expensive show ever produced seems close to amazing imo. Movies with half that scope can take years to crank out. It has nothing to do with GRRM and everything to do with the insane logistics to pull this off.

Well, I'm not in the industry so I still don't get it.. Other hour long shows can come out regularly, like Walking Dead, the CW DC shows, etc... Yes they aren't as expensive, but I don't understand how expense = a lot more time.

I also don't know why they decided to end next season. It would have been better if they slowed the pace down and kept it going for a while...

It's literally the most expensive show ever made. Topped 10 mil per episode last season iirc. There's pre production work, post production, set design, editing, etc. It's quite a bit of stuff for a 2 hour movie much less a 9 hour one. This is NOT a typical 1 hour show. The film The walking dead in my backyard not in Croatia, Scotland, Ireland, Iceland and Malta. It's not the cost as i said it's the Logistics. Now add in it's a "period" piece and it can take months just to make costumes. I'm kinda taken back it's even being compared TWD. HEHE. They wore the same cloths for like 4 seasons!

[morlac]

On the Sansa/Arya thing, no I did not believe for a second it was real. The only thing that made sense was it was an act. It is true that Arya was a tomboy and Sansa was into the whole 'princess' thing and that meant they were at odds. But that was then, this is now. Does anyone really believe these sisters still think the same way as when they were kids? You don't recognize that they've both had enough life experience since then that they recognize the childish nature of their previous resentments? You don't think the loss of a large part of their family would cause them to cherish the remaining family all the more? Come on.

Agreed. They were not at each others throats one bit. Arya said "Let's play the game of Faces" Goal is to lie so good the other person believes it. Then she goes into a speech about wanting to be the lady of Winterfell and wear dresses and put on Sanya's face. It was total bullshit and Littlefinger fell for it because he is obsessed with the Stark women and needed a divided and alone Sanya to pull off his plan. He wanted the wolf but got the pack. HHHOOOOWWLLLLLLL!



sorry early happy hour today!

[gameoverman]

The story is being resolved, there has to be a shift.

You're assuming the story was really about the White Walkers. For me, it wasn't.

The first thing in the show was a white walker attack. This show has been telling a story from episode one. It was never going to be a never ending stream of character arcs, scheming and counter scheming, of shifting alliances, and of war after war. This story is finite and has been from the start. Something like Walking Dead can go on and on, with no endgame, but GOT is the other kind of show. There always was going to be an endgame.

I'd agree with the idea that who wins the Iron Throne isn't the important bit. But it doesn't change the reality that who gets or doesn't get the Iron Throne is going to be resolved. How or if the white walkers are defeated isn't the important bit, but it doesn't change the fact that we are going to see that resolved.

It would be LOST levels of ripoff if after all these years the show ends without resolving those things. This means character stories have to come to an end, one way or another. People may not like how Littlefinger went out, that's understandable. What's not understandable is thinking everyone's favorite character will still be alive and operating as usual all the way until the last episode. Some in the audience will be angry and that's unavoidable, because you can't make everyone happy. If the Hound and the Mountain don't wind up fighting it out, lots will be unhappy because they were looking forward to it. If they do wind up fighting it out, lots will be unhappy because they think that was too predictable.

[hepcat]

The first thing in the show was a white walker attack. This show has been telling a story from episode one.

How or if the white walkers are defeated isn't the important bit,

I disagree with gameoverman 1 but I agree with gameoverman 2.

[Punisher]

Mostly I'm just pissed at the 18 month wait..... Regardless if the reasons HBO gives, I don't think it's necessary... unless they are just pushing it to give GRRM time to finish the last book.... In which case, we may never have a final season...

!8 months for roughly 9 hours of the most expensive show ever produced seems close to amazing imo. Movies with half that scope can take years to crank out. It has nothing to do with GRRM and everything to do with the insane logistics to pull this off.

Well, I'm not in the industry so I still don't get it.. Other hour long shows can come out regularly, like Walking Dead, the CW DC shows, etc... Yes they aren't as expensive, but I don't understand how expense = a lot more time.

I also don't know why they decided to end next season. It would have been better if they slowed the pace down and kept it going for a while...

It's literally the most expensive show ever made. Topped 10 mil per episode last season iirc. There's pre production work, post production, set design, editing, etc. It's quite a bit of stuff for a 2 hour movie much less a 9 hour one. This is NOT a typical 1 hour show. The film The walking dead in my backyard not in Croatia, Scotland, Ireland, Iceland and Malta. It's not the cost as i said it's the Logistics. Now add in it's a "period" piece and it can take months just to make costumes. I'm kinda taken back it's even being compared TWD. HEHE. They wore the same cloths for like 4 seasons!

Well they could always scale back! I for one wouldn't know if they didn't film in those countries... Sure, I'd not be able to suspend disbelief if they filmed in Detroit, but there has to be "local" locations that are good enough... Just thinking that they are spending too much money where it's not needed and that is making them rush the episodes (story wise)...
Also, does HBO have any way of recouping that money outside of subscriptions? I guess that plays a part in it..

[El Guapo]

Mostly I'm just pissed at the 18 month wait..... Regardless if the reasons HBO gives, I don't think it's necessary... unless they are just pushing it to give GRRM time to finish the last book.... In which case, we may never have a final season...

!8 months for roughly 9 hours of the most expensive show ever produced seems close to amazing imo. Movies with half that scope can take years to crank out. It has nothing to do with GRRM and everything to do with the insane logistics to pull this off.

Well, I'm not in the industry so I still don't get it.. Other hour long shows can come out regularly, like Walking Dead, the CW DC shows, etc... Yes they aren't as expensive, but I don't understand how expense = a lot more time.

I also don't know why they decided to end next season. It would have been better if they slowed the pace down and kept it going for a while...

It's literally the most expensive show ever made. Topped 10 mil per episode last season iirc. There's pre production work, post production, set design, editing, etc. It's quite a bit of stuff for a 2 hour movie much less a 9 hour one. This is NOT a typical 1 hour show. The film The walking dead in my backyard not in Croatia, Scotland, Ireland, Iceland and Malta. It's not the cost as i said it's the Logistics. Now add in it's a "period" piece and it can take months just to make costumes. I'm kinda taken back it's even being compared TWD. HEHE. They wore the same cloths for like 4 seasons!

Well they could always scale back! I for one wouldn't know if they didn't film in those countries... Sure, I'd not be able to suspend disbelief if they filmed in Detroit, but there has to be "local" locations that are good enough... Just thinking that they are spending too much money where it's not needed and that is making them rush the episodes (story wise)...
Also, does HBO have any way of recouping that money outside of subscriptions? I guess that plays a part in it..

I would hazard a guess that HBO and the showrunners have had many, many discussions about this before deciding on this course of action. Somehow I doubt that they forgot to think about how they could do the same thing for less money.

[Scuzz]

The essence as to what made the show watchable (and the books readable) is the internal consistency in such a complex world. Season 7 absolutely chucked that essence out the window. Take issue with the hyperbole of the article, but it's calling out the absolute flaw in S7, and what may ultimately ruin the series. I'm impressed the article was written without referencing other seemingly-headed-somewhere-but-ultimately-garbage programming (hello Lost, from what I've heard).

I will say that the struggles that the show has had bringing all of the threads and characters and whatnot together to a climax might suggest why GRRM has had so much trouble cranking out the final two books. Maybe it's easy to subvert expectations and kill off major characters in surprising ways and keep expanding the universe in an interesting way when there's plenty more pages / hours ahead. But when you need to bring all the major conflicts to a satisfying end (with so many freaking characters to handle), it gets more difficult.

This. I would think no matter how GoT resolves itself there will be unhappy people. And the show has moved from that talky planning scheming phase to the big payoff. There is no longer time to play anything for the long haul.

I do think GRRM got himself in this exact fix. He loved creating the world and scheming, he never did a lot of action.

[morlac]

Well they could always scale back! I for one wouldn't know if they didn't film in those countries... Sure, I'd not be able to suspend disbelief if they filmed in Detroit, but there has to be "local" locations that are good enough... Just thinking that they are spending too much money where it's not needed and that is making them rush the episodes (story wise)...
Also, does HBO have any way of recouping that money outside of subscriptions? I guess that plays a part in it..

Yes you would and no there isn't. Making films/shows just does not work that way. I suppose they could CGI the whole thing on Green Screens but it would completely suck, take 3 years for 10 episodes and cost 5 times as much.

edit to add. :

Yes I believe HBO may be making a little side money on top of subscriptions:
https://www.google.com/search?biw=1920& ... ztbgSS6mzU

[Punisher]

Mostly I'm just pissed at the 18 month wait..... Regardless if the reasons HBO gives, I don't think it's necessary... unless they are just pushing it to give GRRM time to finish the last book.... In which case, we may never have a final season...

!8 months for roughly 9 hours of the most expensive show ever produced seems close to amazing imo. Movies with half that scope can take years to crank out. It has nothing to do with GRRM and everything to do with the insane logistics to pull this off.

Well, I'm not in the industry so I still don't get it.. Other hour long shows can come out regularly, like Walking Dead, the CW DC shows, etc... Yes they aren't as expensive, but I don't understand how expense = a lot more time.

I also don't know why they decided to end next season. It would have been better if they slowed the pace down and kept it going for a while...

It's literally the most expensive show ever made. Topped 10 mil per episode last season iirc. There's pre production work, post production, set design, editing, etc. It's quite a bit of stuff for a 2 hour movie much less a 9 hour one. This is NOT a typical 1 hour show. The film The walking dead in my backyard not in Croatia, Scotland, Ireland, Iceland and Malta. It's not the cost as i said it's the Logistics. Now add in it's a "period" piece and it can take months just to make costumes. I'm kinda taken back it's even being compared TWD. HEHE. They wore the same cloths for like 4 seasons!

Well they could always scale back! I for one wouldn't know if they didn't film in those countries... Sure, I'd not be able to suspend disbelief if they filmed in Detroit, but there has to be "local" locations that are good enough... Just thinking that they are spending too much money where it's not needed and that is making them rush the episodes (story wise)...
Also, does HBO have any way of recouping that money outside of subscriptions? I guess that plays a part in it..

I would hazard a guess that HBO and the showrunners have had many, many discussions about this before deciding on this course of action. Somehow I doubt that they forgot to think about how they could do the same thing for less money.

I don't think they did... Quick, get me a meeting with them!

[Punisher]

Well they could always scale back! I for one wouldn't know if they didn't film in those countries... Sure, I'd not be able to suspend disbelief if they filmed in Detroit, but there has to be "local" locations that are good enough... Just thinking that they are spending too much money where it's not needed and that is making them rush the episodes (story wise)...
Also, does HBO have any way of recouping that money outside of subscriptions? I guess that plays a part in it..

Yes you would and no there isn't. Making films/shows just does not work that way. I suppose they could CGI the whole thing on Green Screens but it would completely suck, take 3 years for 10 episodes and cost 5 times as much.

edit to add. :

Yes I believe HBO may be making a little side money on top of subscriptions:
https://www.google.com/search?biw=1920& ... ztbgSS6mzU

Didn't even think about merchandising.. I wonder how much of that they get and how much GRRM gets...

[Combustible Lemur]

The first thing in the show was a white walker attack. This show has been telling a story from episode one.

How or if the white walkers are defeated isn't the important bit,

I disagree with gameoverman 1 but I agree with gameoverman 2.

Then what was the first scene? A clever thief playing on old superstitions?

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[Combustible Lemur]

On the Sansa/Arya thing, no I did not believe for a second it was real. The only thing that made sense was it was an act. It is true that Arya was a tomboy and Sansa was into the whole 'princess' thing and that meant they were at odds. But that was then, this is now. Does anyone really believe these sisters still think the same way as when they were kids? You don't recognize that they've both had enough life experience since then that they recognize the childish nature of their previous resentments? You don't think the loss of a large part of their family would cause them to cherish the remaining family all the more? Come on.

Agreed. They were not at each others throats one bit. Arya said "Let's play the game of Faces" Goal is to lie so good the other person believes it. Then she goes into a speech about wanting to be the lady of Winterfell and wear dresses and put on Sanya's face. It was total bullshit and Littlefinger fell for it because he is obsessed with the Stark women and needed a divided and alone Sanya to pull off his plan. He wanted the wolf but got the pack. HHHOOOOWWLLLLLLL!



sorry early happy hour today!

Totally agree with this. Little finger has always been looking upwards. The Stark girls managed to fall into his weak spot. For most of the series they were victim/assets, they are the progeny of his only actual love, and they (at least sansa) have what he wants. It would be surprising if they didn't exploit him.
My biggest problem in the past has been that the show gives all the villains near omniscience and magical luck, while having the heroes role constant snake eyes.

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[hepcat]

Was Littlefinger listening in on that scene between Arya and Sansa? I don't recall seeing anything that indicated that.

The first thing in the show was a white walker attack. This show has been telling a story from episode one.

How or if the white walkers are defeated isn't the important bit,

I disagree with gameoverman 1 but I agree with gameoverman 2.

Then what was the first scene? A clever thief playing on old superstitions?

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I was under the impression he was saying that the show has always been the story of the White Walkers in that sentence. You read it a different way. One of us is wrong.

[msteelers]

all of that made Game of Thrones the best show on television, but it's ultimately all been to move pieces around on the board to set up this confrontation.

Or... OR... (Work with me here...)

This looming confrontation has ultimately all been to set up the movement of pieces around on the board.

[Jaymann]

About Ned and Baelish: The city guard was the biggest army in the citadel by far, and Stannis had the nearest army and was already marching to the city. Of course, chaos is a ladder and Stannis would never have given him land, so you might as well kill the guy who marries your girl. Also, it was interesting Sansa sorted out the Arryn accusations first and make him admit something to make sure he didn't have the Vale to go back to.

About Cersei's pregnancy: In the spoilers, there was mention of a scene that cleared out whether she was lying or not. It was cut, either for suspense or because they want to change it slightly or completely.

It's interesting that Cersei is now trusting and relying on: the Iron Bank, which her husband, her father and herself pissed off massively; a mercenary band that, in the books, has strong connections to the Targaryans; Euron Greyjoy, for fuck's sake. I can't imagine that working at all.

Cersei and Euron plan to make a killing selling Euron's Miracle-Gro for Trees.

[El Guapo]

So what is Jaime's plan at this point? He seemed to be riding off by himself. I guess he could bring some intel to the forces of good (Cersei's planning on betraying you!), though I'm pretty sure that they would figure that out pretty soon, what with the absence of Cersei's armies moving north, and the assistance of Bran the All Seeing. He could finally give Danaerys a competent commander, I suppose.

I kind of hope he at least tries to rally some Lannister forces (at least the commanders that he was talking to before Cersei came in) before (presumably) going north.