Holman wrote:Brian Herbert is a parasite who couldn't write his way out of a paper bag of wet dogshit.
Don’t forget to throw Kevin J. Anderson in there with him.
It took me a bit to get into Dune as well. But it also took 3 tries to get into song of ice and fire series, (long before HBO) but once it did I couldn't put them down. I have not tried the Brian Herbert books.
But you leave Kevin J. Anderson alone. His solo-authored novels are great. Not sure the contributions with Brian Herbert.
I find television very educational. Every time somebody turns on the set, I go into the other room and read a book. - Groucho Marx
hepcat wrote: ↑Wed Jan 16, 2019 7:13 pm
It took me about 3 tries before I could get into the Dune series. But when I did I couldn’t stop. The world building is freaking amazing.
But I can’t bring myself to read any Dune books not written by Frank Herbert.
I was in this boat - 3 times to get into it. It really seemed to start incredibly slowly, but once I got past the first 100 pages or so (as someone else said), things got better. I don't recall how many of the books I actually read before burning out, but I got there eventually.
The fact that a sci-fi series held my attention for as long as it did is saying something, as I generally don't care much for the genre.
A nonny mouse wrote: ↑Thu Jan 17, 2019 10:19 am
But you leave Kevin J. Anderson alone. His solo-authored novels are great. Not sure the contributions with Brian Herbert.
His is mostly pulp sci-fi too, and I don't really have a problem with him, either. I think what is happening here is an unfair comparison of what was arguably the greatest science fiction book ever written (and a classic literary work in its own right) to more run-of-the-mil sci-fi. I don't have the time to fact-check, but I suspect by now Brian has written more words in the Dune world than his father did; and he wrote them in a much shorter period of time. I was entertained by each of the books; it's as a whole they fail (IMO) in one important way that I think Frank would have avoided - starting with the Machine Wars trilogy set 2 millennia before Dune; many of the players contemporary to Dune had ancestral origins going back that far in a straight line. It's as if the Julian-Claudian families of Ancient Rome were the dominant political figures today, and is just not plausible. The stories that run up to Dune aren't bad though; you learn more about supporting cast players in Dune.
That reminds me, I never finished the Hellhole series. I quite liked the first two books.
Jeff V wrote: ↑Thu Jan 17, 2019 11:18 am
I think what is happening here is an unfair comparison of what was arguably the greatest science fiction book ever written (and a classic literary work in its own right) to more run-of-the-mil sci-fi.
That tends to happen when you write a series of books that use the name Dune and are set in the Dune universe.
Zarathud wrote: ↑Wed Jan 16, 2019 10:08 pm
Brian doesn't measure up in the literary sense, but the prequels fit neatly into the pulp sci-fi genre. While much simpler, the writing as storytelling is better because it's narrowly focused. If you want to understand Dune, you need the prequels.
The backstory I can imagine from reading the glossary and appendices to Frank Herbert's DUNE is vastly superior to any novel Brian Herbert wrote or could possibly write.
Yes, I tried to read them. BH's plots constrain and limit the Dune universe to something less than it was. We don't need him.
I will die on this hill.
I'm right there with you. I'll even give you permission to use my body as cover if I go down first.
Jeff V wrote: ↑Thu Jan 17, 2019 11:18 am
I think what is happening here is an unfair comparison of what was arguably the greatest science fiction book ever written (and a classic literary work in its own right) to more run-of-the-mil sci-fi.
That tends to happen when you write a series of books that use the name Dune and are set in the Dune universe.
Would that make it the Dune-iverse?
"You laugh at me because I'm different; I laugh at you because you're all the same." ~Jonathan Davis
"The object of education is to prepare the young to educate themselves throughout their lives." ~Robert M. Hutchins
I know people rag on the David Lynch Dune, but I've always had a soft spot for it. And despite the fact that I have only watched it all the way through maybe 3-4 times, I can quote many of the lines by heart. Something about it stuck with me. Matter of fact, I spent the larger part of Sunday morning planted on my couch. Watching Dune. On the Sundance Channel, with commercial breaks, no less.
And I too tried reading Dune like 3 separate times, but never could complete it until after I had seen the movie.
“We can never allow Murania to become desecrated by the presence of surface people. Our lives are serene, our minds are superior, our accomplishments greater. Gene Autry must be captured!!!” - Queen Tika, The Phantom Empire
hentzau wrote: ↑Thu Jan 17, 2019 2:59 pm
I know people rag on the David Lynch Dune, but I've always had a soft spot for it.
Yeah, it certainly has it's issues with some of the editing among other things, but visually it's amazing, and the production values and acting are top notch.
I LOVE the Lynch Dune. It's not the book or even the miniseries. But I'll generally speaking take the movie's steam punk mysticism over the books' punnett squares, political conversations, and genetics spreadsheets. Enjoyed both regardless
ImLawBoy wrote: ↑Thu Jan 17, 2019 3:30 pm
I never hated the Lynch movie. It's flawed, sure, but it was quite the spectacle.
My name is a killing word.
MacLachlan is such a terrible actor in Dune...so much so that I enjoyed seeing him abused by Dennis Hopper in Blue Velvet as if it were some sort of punishment from that earlier travesty.
I don't hate the Lynch Dune movie, but I have no idea how anyone who hasn't read the book can follow anything that's happening. I had finished the book just prior to watching the movie and it still confused the hell out of me.
Ralph-Wiggum wrote: ↑Thu Jan 17, 2019 5:39 pm
I don't hate the Lynch Dune movie, but I have no idea how anyone who hasn't read the book can follow anything that's happening. I had finished the book just prior to watching the movie and it still confused the hell out of me.
I mentioned this before - I saw it with 3 other friends. Two of us ready the book. Two didn't. The two of us who did hated it, the two who didn't said they couldn't offer an opinion whether it was good or bad because they didn't understand what they just saw.
Keep in mind the theatrical release was much shorter than the "director's cut"/extended edition which I think is mostly shown these days. The much longer mini-series doesn't feel ask if large portions of the story were cut out.
ImLawBoy wrote: ↑Thu Jan 17, 2019 3:30 pm
I never hated the Lynch movie. It's flawed, sure, but it was quite the spectacle.
My name is a killing word.
MacLachlan is such a terrible actor in Dune...so much so that I enjoyed seeing him abused by Dennis Hopper in Blue Velvet as if it were some sort of punishment from that earlier travesty.
ImLawBoy wrote: ↑Thu Jan 17, 2019 3:30 pm
I never hated the Lynch movie. It's flawed, sure, but it was quite the spectacle.
My name is a killing word.
MacLachlan is such a terrible actor in Dune...so much so that I enjoyed seeing him abused by Dennis Hopper in Blue Velvet as if it were some sort of punishment from that earlier travesty.
You like Brian Herbert’s novels. So...you know...
Machlachlan was great. The whole thing was uber theatrical. Like an old school larger than life tragedy. But with weird blue eyed infant child abominations. And so much screaming/ whispering.
Love the 84 movie..just love it. Also loved the Sci-Fi channels mini series. But I can watch the original movie over and over.
--------------------------------------------
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"Has high IQ. Refuses to apply it"
Reading the Lynch movie getting praise brings a tear to my eye
Dune: favorite novel of all time.
Lynch movie: also awesome (not my favorite of all time by any means but still great. In my top 20 though, maybe even close to ten, yes I like it that much)
I see the flaws in the Lynch movie, sure, but I've always had a soft spot for it. (I've always kind of wondered how Return of the Jedi would have been different if Lynch had accepted Lucas' invitation to direct it.)
And this sounds like a good time to remind people of the documentary Jodorowsky's Dune.
If you don't know it, seek it out and watch it without consulting any reviews or discussion of it. Then report back.
Like Blade Runner, it redefined the boundaries of what a SciFi movie could look like. Completely original design and still great to this day, ihmo.
The story, not so much.
Jodorowsky's Dune is entertaining, but I still believe if he had had his way, the movie would have been even further from the source material. And probably way too reliant on political and social commentary from that time period. It would feel heavily dated today.
hepcat wrote: ↑Fri Jan 18, 2019 12:09 pm
Like Blade Runner, it redefined the boundaries of what a SciFi movie could look like. Completely original design and still great to this day, ihmo.
The story, not so much.
Jodorowsky's Dune is entertaining, but I still believe if he had had his way, the movie would have been even further from the source material. And probably way too reliant on political and social commentary from that time period. It would feel heavily dated today.
I don't know, sometimes things feel dated but sometimes real life circles around and undates things. I saw that documentary and I think there's a good chance that they would have created a movie so weird that it never gets old no matter what's in it. I'm thinking of movies like The Wizard of Oz and 2001. A viewer could nitpick all the things wrong in 2001 but I don't think that dates the movie, I think the movie is immune to it. Howard Johnson's might not be a thing anymore but the idea of how it's used in the movie still stands.
I think they might have done the same with Dune. I don't think it would have be a faithful adaptation but then since I haven't read the book I wouldn't care. I bet it would have held my attention, beginning to end, and that's more than any other Dune related material has done for me so far.
David Lynch's Dune is just one of those movies where I'll just plop down and watch it because it just draws me in every time.
LONG LIVE THE FIGHTERS! (even with commercial breaks)
Black lives matter!
Wise words of warning from Smoove B: Oh, how you all laughed when I warned you about the semen. Well, who's laughing now?
I used to think Lynch’s Dune was good. Then I tried convincing my wife to watch it. She was good until the Guild Navigator tried to fold space and she said “is that smoke coming out of its ass?” Since then it’s been forever ruined.
raydude wrote:I used to think Lynch’s Dune was good. Then I tried convincing my wife to watch it. She was good until the Guild Navigator tried to fold space and she said “is that smoke coming out of its ass?” Since then it’s been forever ruined.
As I sit watching my daughter's dance class I'm trying stifle my laughter and not draw attention to myself. That would embarrass my daughter and make for an awkward ride home as I try to explain why I was laughing. "Well there's this dude who's now a worm and he, well maybe more an it, folds space and I never thought about it this way before but it seems farting is an essential part of the process..." (glad daughter doesn't know a killing word right about now)
Black lives matter!
Wise words of warning from Smoove B: Oh, how you all laughed when I warned you about the semen. Well, who's laughing now?
raydude wrote: ↑Fri Jan 18, 2019 5:37 pm
I used to think Lynch’s Dune was good. Then I tried convincing my wife to watch it. She was good until the Guild Navigator tried to fold space and she said “is that smoke coming out of its ass?” Since then it’s been forever ruined.
I actually do watch it whenever I happen across it, but much the same way that I can't take my eyes off a train wreck. I marvel at the wooden, mopey performance of MacLachan. At the utter buffoonery that is Baron Harkonnen (as the epitome of evil, his character is straight out of a 5-year old's fairy tale). At what I can only presume was the nail in the coffin of Sting's acting career.
Now, it wasn't all bad. Linda Hunt, Jose Ferrer, Sian Phillips, Jurgen Prochnow, Patrick Stewart, and Max von Sydow were all well-cast in their roles. I think these folks led Frank Herbert to become star struck because in his autobiography, he carries on about how glorious the experience was, leading me to wonder whether he actually sat through the finished product.
raydude wrote: ↑Fri Jan 18, 2019 5:37 pm
I used to think Lynch’s Dune was good. Then I tried convincing my wife to watch it. She was good until the Guild Navigator tried to fold space and she said “is that smoke coming out of its ass?” Since then it’s been forever ruined.
I actually do watch it whenever I happen across it, but much the same way that I can't take my eyes off a train wreck. I marvel at the wooden, mopey performance of MacLachan. At the utter buffoonery that is Baron Harkonnen (as the epitome of evil, his character is straight out of a 5-year old's fairy tale). At what I can only presume was the nail in the coffin of Sting's acting career.
Now, it wasn't all bad. Linda Hunt, Jose Ferrer, Sian Phillips, Jurgen Prochnow, Patrick Stewart, and Max von Sydow were all well-cast in their roles. I think these folks led Frank Herbert to become star struck because in his autobiography, he carries on about how glorious the experience was, leading me to wonder whether he actually sat through the finished product.
hepcat wrote: ↑Fri Jan 18, 2019 12:09 pm
Jodorowsky's Dune is entertaining, but I still believe if he had had his way, the movie would have been even further from the source material. And probably way too reliant on political and social commentary from that time period. It would feel heavily dated today.
There's a point in the documentary where Jodorowsky admits that he has never actually read the novel.
The whole project is pure 1970s French/Spanish/Mescaline fantasy of Art blowing your Bourgeoisie Mind.
Holman wrote: ↑Fri Jan 18, 2019 7:34 pm
The whole project is pure 1970s French/Spanish/Mescaline fantasy of Art blowing your Bourgeoisie Mind.
having read a number of Jodorowsky's graphic novels, i concur this is 100% the case. i have not yet worked up the nerve to get to any of his films, but his _Manual of Psychomagic: The Practice of Shamanic Psychotherapy_ is well worth skimming.
So I'd never seen the movie and I'm watching it now...
Oofta. This is not good at all. I might change my opinion if everyone brings a pug to a gun fight...
Story leaves a lot to be desired (it's a Dino De Laurentiis production...what are you expecting?), but the design is completely original. Ignore the story and just drink in the sights.
