Super Bowl LII

Jeff V · Post by **Jeff V** » Sun Dec 17, 2017 8:22 pm

Pittsburg got fisted.

Jaymann · Post by **Jaymann** » Sun Dec 17, 2017 9:22 pm

Jeff V wrote: ↑Sun Dec 17, 2017 8:22 pm Pittsburg got fisted.

Yep. How many times have you seen a touchdown called for breaking the plane?

Trent Steel · Post by **Trent Steel** » Sun Dec 17, 2017 9:29 pm

Jaymann wrote: ↑Sun Dec 17, 2017 9:22 pm
Jeff V wrote: ↑Sun Dec 17, 2017 8:22 pm Pittsburg got fisted.
Yep. How many times have you seen a touchdown called for breaking the plane?

Breaking the plane of the goal line is irrelevant if it's not a catch. Pittsburgh did get jobbed, hard, but by the rulebook. Not the refs.

msteelers · Post by **msteelers** » Sun Dec 17, 2017 10:08 pm

Jeff V wrote:Pittsburg got fisted.

No, they didn’t.

The rule is clear, and I think it’s a good rule. I don’t understand why every time this play comes up fans think it’s not a catch. You have to maintain possession going to the ground. James didn’t do that, the ball CLEARLY moved. You could argue that there is no indisputable video evidence that the ball hit the ground. You could argue that James’ hands were underneath the ball. But the replays shown on TV made it clear that this was going to be a judgement call from the refs, and at that point it was 50/50 whether the TD would stand or not.

The Steelers lack of clock management killed them here. The review took forever! Have two plays called in case your guy gets tackled in the field of play! The fake spike was terrible. Ben claims he wanted to spike it. That’s a terrible decision if my memory is right and there is 20 seconds left on the clock. Plenty of time for a pass to the end zone. Tomlin wanted to run a play, and Haley told Ben over the radio not to clock it. So Ben ran a fake spike. SMH

Not to mention all of the other opportunities the Steelers had to win. Going 3-and-out with under 3:00 to play. Dropping an INT on the first pass of the Gronk drive. James HAS to make that catch... the Steelers were the better team. Which makes the loss sting more.

The absolute worst part of the game though, was the asshat Patriot fan clapping and screaming in my face at the end. F that guy. He’s why football fans get a bad reputation.

Trent Steel · Post by **Trent Steel** » Sun Dec 17, 2017 10:18 pm

I mean, it clearly wasn't a catch according to the rules, but... it was a goddamn catch.

gameoverman · Post by **gameoverman** » Sun Dec 17, 2017 11:00 pm

It was not a catch and the dead giveaway was the sudden movement of his left hand. His left elbow hits the ground, causing his left hand to slide, and that causes him to lose control of the ball.

Breaking the plane only matters if you have possession prior to breaking the plane. It seems obvious to me, if you're a receiver diving for the ball, it's not a catch unless you have control of the ball until the play is over. Landing on the ground is part of the ongoing play. It's the end part, but it's still a part.

Ralph-Wiggum · Post by **Ralph-Wiggum** » Mon Dec 18, 2017 12:35 am

The bigger question to me is whether the ball hit the ground. It almost looked like his hand was under the ball the whole time, which would make it a catch even if the ball moved.

Jaymann · Post by **Jaymann** » Mon Dec 18, 2017 12:50 am

Ha ha, Raiders snatch defeat from the jaws of victory.

gameoverman · Post by **gameoverman** » Mon Dec 18, 2017 3:22 am

On the Pittsburgh play, the ball touched the ground. His left hand is up, which leaves only his right hand as a possible buffer between the ball and the ground. But look at his right hand, it's on the side of ball not under it.

msteelers · Post by **msteelers** » Mon Dec 18, 2017 6:09 am

Ralph-Wiggum wrote:The bigger question to me is whether the ball hit the ground. It almost looked like his hand was under the ball the whole time, which would make it a catch even if the ball moved.

Agreed. I think the ref could have ruled it a TD by saying there wasn’t indisputable video evidence of the ball touching the ground. But as gameoverman points out, there’s enough there for the ref to believe that ball touched the ground. Hence the ruling.

msteelers · Post by **msteelers** » Mon Dec 18, 2017 6:10 am

Jaymann wrote:Ha ha, Raiders snatch defeat from the jaws of victory.

THIS is clearly the worst rule in football, not the catch rules. No reason that shouldn’t be 1st and Goal from the 1 for the raiders.

stessier · Post by **stessier** » Mon Dec 18, 2017 7:41 am

Yeah, you can hate the catch rule, but it wasn't misapplied.

msteelers wrote: ↑Sun Dec 17, 2017 10:08 pm the Steelers were the better team.

I don't know how you can say that. Those teams were completely evenly matched. The Steelers controlled thd pace for much of the game, but never the score. The Patz only got to run 18 plays in the first half...not because of a bunch of turnovers, but because of long Steeler drives, which is to their credit. But its not like they ran away with the game and when they had the chance to put it away with another clock killing drive, they failed. I hope there is no rematch. But if there is, i hope it is in Foxboro.

msteelers · Post by **msteelers** » Mon Dec 18, 2017 8:03 am

stessier wrote: ↑Mon Dec 18, 2017 7:41 am Yeah, you can hate the catch rule, but it wasn't misapplied.

msteelers wrote: ↑Sun Dec 17, 2017 10:08 pm the Steelers were the better team.
I don't know how you can say that.

Those teams were completely evenly matched. The Steelers controlled thd pace for much of the game, but never the score. The Patz only got to run 18 plays in the first half...not because of a bunch of turnovers, but because of long Steeler drives, which is to their credit. But its not like they ran away with the game and when they had the chance to put it away with another clock killing drive, they failed.

You said it yourself. The Steelers controlled the game, and only let it slip away because they left plays on the field in the final four minutes.

I hope there is no rematch. But if there is, i hope it is in Foxboro.

The Patriots will almost certainly get home field advantage. They have to lose at home to either the Bills or the Jets. That's just not going to happen with home field on the line. Plus the Steelers would have to beat both the Texans and the Browns without Antonio Brown. They certainly should get both wins, but the Steelers have a way of losing to bad teams.

My big concern is the Jaguars. They already whooped the Steelers once this season in Pittsburgh, and could in theory steal a first round bye from Pittsburgh if the Steelers lose one of these last two games.

stessier · Post by **stessier** » Mon Dec 18, 2017 9:12 am

msteelers wrote: ↑Mon Dec 18, 2017 8:03 am
stessier wrote: ↑Mon Dec 18, 2017 7:41 am Yeah, you can hate the catch rule, but it wasn't misapplied.

msteelers wrote: ↑Sun Dec 17, 2017 10:08 pm the Steelers were the better team.
I don't know how you can say that.

Those teams were completely evenly matched. The Steelers controlled thd pace for much of the game, but never the score. The Patz only got to run 18 plays in the first half...not because of a bunch of turnovers, but because of long Steeler drives, which is to their credit. But its not like they ran away with the game and when they had the chance to put it away with another clock killing drive, they failed.
You said it yourself. The Steelers controlled the game, and only let it slip away because they left plays on the field in the final four minutes.

That doesn't make them the better team - that makes them the team with the ball last. The Rams were the better team when they played the Seahawks this weekend. That can't be said about the Pats/Steelers.

RunningMn9 · Post by **RunningMn9** » Mon Dec 18, 2017 9:42 am

stessier wrote: ↑Mon Dec 18, 2017 7:41 am I don't know how you can say that. Those teams were completely evenly matched.

My impression of the game is that the Steelers would have walked away with a relatively easy win if not for two things: Antonio Brown getting his calf mutilated early in the game; the Steelers offered Sean Davis any kind of help in covering Gronkowski.

I felt like the Steelers were clearly the better team, but would point out that the Pats are missing some key offensive and defensive pieces, which probably explains that.

The only reason this was a game is because Rob Gronkowski >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sean Davis. And the Steelers just left that fool out there to twist in the wind.

As for the catch, clearly the rule is flawed. The receiver caught the ball with a knee down and control. He then wasn't touched, so extended the ball across the goal line, fumbling it like a goon. Had he been touched down, he doesn't extend, and there's no problem. My point is only that the rule has to take into account the player extending the play. But it doesn't, so it had to be no catch.

Edit: I watched it again and was wrong, the player turned to extend while going to the ground. Clearly not a catch by the current rule.

msteelers · Post by **msteelers** » Mon Dec 18, 2017 10:18 am

RunningMn9 wrote: ↑Mon Dec 18, 2017 9:42 amEdit: I watched it again and was wrong, the player turned to extend while going to the ground. Clearly not a catch by the current rule.

Yup. James took a risk by reaching the ball out to get the TD, and it blew up in his face. He could/should have secured the catch, but I don't fault him for trying to win the game.

The Steelers loss rests squarely on the shoulders of Ben, Tomlin, and Haley. Tomlin should have taken the time during the review to get his offense ready if/when the refs overturned the TD. And have two plays called in case the runner on 2nd down gets tackled in the field of play. Tomlin and Haley didn't get their offense ready when they needed to. Ben took it upon himself to spike the football and kick a field goal. But there was plenty of time remaining to run a play on 3rd down. Tomlin had Haley radio Ben telling him to run a play. At that point, Ben was stuck. So he gave a head nod to his WR (Eli Rogers I believe) to tell him to run a route. The WR ran into the middle of the field where all of the defenders were (dumb), and Ben threw it anyway (dumber).

I fully expected the Steelers to lose that game, but I didn't expect it to be in such heartbreaking fashion. Leave it to the Steelers to make me feel like I've been punched in the gut after losing a game I expected them to lose.

Kurth · Post by **Kurth** » Mon Dec 18, 2017 12:01 pm

God, I really do hate the Patriots. And the Cowboys. My two most despised teams snuck off with wins in almost the exact same fashion. Ugh.

stessier · Post by **stessier** » Mon Dec 18, 2017 12:37 pm

RunningMn9 wrote: ↑Mon Dec 18, 2017 9:42 am
stessier wrote: ↑Mon Dec 18, 2017 7:41 am I don't know how you can say that. Those teams were completely evenly matched.
My impression of the game is that the Steelers would have walked away with a relatively easy win if not for two things: Antonio Brown getting his calf mutilated early in the game; the Steelers offered Sean Davis any kind of help in covering Gronkowski.

And the Pats would have won easily if they could tackle Big Ben as he escaped 3 sacks that would have ended drives and prevented touchdowns. Or they would have won easily had they not missed tackles on the 69 yard run after a 5 yard pass at the end of the game.

Neither side had an unusual amount of luck - good or bad. They lost Brown, we lost Burkhead - both significant offensive engines. They gave up a long pass to Cooks, we gave up the long pass at the end. They had an INT (granted in much worse position) and the Pats had an INT. The teams were evenly matched.

Edit: It is also of note that Eric Rowe - the DB who tipped the ball at the end that ended up in an INT - had been victimized through much of the game. It's nice he made that play as he played really well last year and missed a lot of this year with a groin injury.

msteelers · Post by **msteelers** » Mon Dec 18, 2017 12:51 pm

That’s a good point stessier. There’s a reason they call Rex Burkhead the Antonio Brown of the Patriots. He is integral to the Pats Super Bowl hopes, and has fans whispering that he should be the league MVP.

naednek · Post by **naednek** » Mon Dec 18, 2017 12:58 pm

Isgrimnur wrote: ↑Sun Dec 17, 2017 1:25 pm There have been Thursday games for weeks.

Yes, but I posted on Sunday, and said yesterday which means Saturday... Cmon Isg, keep up.

naednek · Post by **naednek** » Mon Dec 18, 2017 12:59 pm

Pyperkub wrote: ↑Sun Dec 17, 2017 2:26 pm
Isgrimnur wrote:There have been Thursday games for weeks.
All year, basically. But Saturday games just started this week, as they do every year when the college football season ends.

ya i just kept thinking it was the last two weeks of football (Christmas and new years weekends) I don't follow college football.

naednek · Post by **naednek** » Mon Dec 18, 2017 1:03 pm

The niners are moving up, draft be damned. Loving Jimmy G and his poise. Get some new CB and upgrade the offensive line, and running back and we should be set.

Remus West · Post by **Remus West** » Mon Dec 18, 2017 1:26 pm

naednek wrote: ↑Mon Dec 18, 2017 1:03 pm The niners are moving up, draft be damned. Loving Jimmy G and his poise. Get some new CB and upgrade the offensive line, and running back and we should be set.

Don't fall for that. They beat 3 really bad/mediocre teams in a row. Thinking you're close to being good is Lions logic there.

naednek · Post by **naednek** » Mon Dec 18, 2017 1:37 pm

Remus West wrote: ↑Mon Dec 18, 2017 1:26 pm
naednek wrote: ↑Mon Dec 18, 2017 1:03 pm The niners are moving up, draft be damned. Loving Jimmy G and his poise. Get some new CB and upgrade the offensive line, and running back and we should be set.
Don't fall for that. They beat 3 really bad/mediocre teams in a row. Thinking you're close to being good is Lions logic there.

The real test will be the next two weeks (jags and rams)

Jaymann · Post by **Jaymann** » Mon Dec 18, 2017 1:41 pm

naednek wrote: ↑Mon Dec 18, 2017 1:37 pm
Remus West wrote: ↑Mon Dec 18, 2017 1:26 pm
naednek wrote: ↑Mon Dec 18, 2017 1:03 pm The niners are moving up, draft be damned. Loving Jimmy G and his poise. Get some new CB and upgrade the offensive line, and running back and we should be set.
Don't fall for that. They beat 3 really bad/mediocre teams in a row. Thinking you're close to being good is Lions logic there.
The real test will be the next two weeks (jags and rams)

Yes, the only two teams to score over 40 points this week while holding their opponents to one TD...

naednek · Post by **naednek** » Mon Dec 18, 2017 1:44 pm

Jaymann wrote: ↑Mon Dec 18, 2017 1:41 pm
naednek wrote: ↑Mon Dec 18, 2017 1:37 pm
Remus West wrote: ↑Mon Dec 18, 2017 1:26 pm
naednek wrote: ↑Mon Dec 18, 2017 1:03 pm The niners are moving up, draft be damned. Loving Jimmy G and his poise. Get some new CB and upgrade the offensive line, and running back and we should be set.
Don't fall for that. They beat 3 really bad/mediocre teams in a row. Thinking you're close to being good is Lions logic there.
The real test will be the next two weeks (jags and rams)
Yes, the only two teams to score over 40 points this week while holding their opponents to one TD...

which is why I said test...

RunningMn9 · Post by **RunningMn9** » Mon Dec 18, 2017 2:06 pm

Yeah...Rex Burkhead really is the engine that makes the Pats offense go.

Antonio Brown is arguably the best WR of his generation (and I don’t think there is any real argument against that notion). Losing him and losing one of your 17 running backs aren’t exactly the same thing.

Had the Pats lost Gronk, that would be an equivalent loss. My point is that a semi-independent analysis would conclude that the better team lost last night.

I don’t think the Steelers are the better team per se, just that they looked it (to me) last night. There’s a 0% chance I would pick the Steelers to beat NE at Gillette in the playoffs. So there’s that.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

Remus West · Post by **Remus West** » Mon Dec 18, 2017 3:11 pm

naednek wrote: ↑Mon Dec 18, 2017 1:37 pm
Remus West wrote: ↑Mon Dec 18, 2017 1:26 pm
naednek wrote: ↑Mon Dec 18, 2017 1:03 pm The niners are moving up, draft be damned. Loving Jimmy G and his poise. Get some new CB and upgrade the offensive line, and running back and we should be set.
Don't fall for that. They beat 3 really bad/mediocre teams in a row. Thinking you're close to being good is Lions logic there.
The real test will be the next two weeks (jags and rams)

Don't fall for it. Allow meaningless game to remain that way.
Signed,
Life Long Lions fan

gameoverman · Post by **gameoverman** » Mon Dec 18, 2017 6:27 pm

msteelers wrote: ↑Mon Dec 18, 2017 6:10 am
Jaymann wrote:Ha ha, Raiders snatch defeat from the jaws of victory.
THIS is clearly the worst rule in football, not the catch rules. No reason that shouldn’t be 1st and Goal from the 1 for the raiders.

If a team has 4th down on their own 10 yard line and when trying to punt, the ball sails over the punter and out of the back of the end zone, they don't award the ball to the other team at the 10 yard line. Why not? The last time the player in control of the ball touched the ball, it was on the 10 yard line.

Similarly, the QB last controlled the ball outside the end zone. The ball went into the end zone and out of the field of play. How then does it make sense to bring the ball back to the spot he last controlled the ball and award possession back to the side that last the ball in the first place? That makes no sense to me.

msteelers · Post by **msteelers** » Mon Dec 18, 2017 6:52 pm

Your first example is an entirely different scenario. That involves the ball going backward. The offense can always lose yards on a fumble.

An offense can not advance the ball on a fumble in the final two minutes of a half, unless the player that fumbled it is the one that recovered. If the runner loses the ball at the 2, and it goes out of bounds at the 1, it’s the offenses ball at the 2. But if it goes out of bounds in the end zone, it’s the defenses ball at the 20. That is crap.

Jaymann · Post by **Jaymann** » Mon Dec 18, 2017 8:01 pm

So by the logic of the catch rule, any time a player catches the ball in the end zone, the defense should tackle him and try to make him drop the ball as he hits the ground, even if he has been dancing around for 30 seconds - incomplete pass!

msteelers · Post by **msteelers** » Mon Dec 18, 2017 8:10 pm

xenocide · Post by **xenocide** » Mon Dec 18, 2017 8:14 pm

msteelers wrote: ↑Sun Dec 17, 2017 10:08 pm The rule is clear, and I think it’s a good rule. I don’t understand why every time this play comes up fans think it’s not a catch.

I'm in total agreement with msteelers. I don't get how people don't know the rule by now, like it or not they are consistent in calling it. I heard all the uproar and expected something crazy. Than I watched the video and he clearly looses control when going to the ground. You have to keep in mind it is not whether or not he "catches" the ball, it's whether or not he make a "legal NFL reception". They are not the same.

If you want the rule changed that's fine; I think it's clear most people do. Either way everyone should know it clearly by this point.

msteelers · Post by **msteelers** » Mon Dec 18, 2017 8:20 pm

xenocide wrote: ↑Mon Dec 18, 2017 8:14 pmIf you want the rule changed that's fine; I think it's clear most people do. Either way everyone should know it clearly by this point.

I hear a lot of people demanding the rule be changed, but I don't hear much about what they want instead. Do we go back to the days of two steps needed for it to be a completion? Two feet down and a football move? That's so subjective. I remember watching endless replays that all went something like "he opened up his hips and you can see one frame where he started to move the ball forward. The question is: is that a football move Jim? I don't know. It's up to the ref. We'll just have to speculate for the next five minutes until this needless replay review is over."

The rules as written now make sense to me. Sure, refs don't always get it right or rule it consistently. But they are human, and mistakes are a given. Overall though I think they get the call right.

Jaymann · Post by **Jaymann** » Mon Dec 18, 2017 9:06 pm

Here is why it is a bad rule:

If you hand the ball to a running back and he breaks the plane - touchdown! Even if he hits the ground and the ball comes out.

If you pass the ball and the exact same thing happens - incomplete pass!

xenocide · Post by **xenocide** » Mon Dec 18, 2017 9:15 pm

Do you honestly not see the difference between and hand off and a reception? They make the same call on balls caught inside the endzone all the time. You half to maintain control going to the ground. The plane makes no difference on legal NFL reception or not.

Jaymann · Post by **Jaymann** » Mon Dec 18, 2017 9:23 pm

xenocide wrote: ↑Mon Dec 18, 2017 9:15 pm Do you honestly not see the difference between and hand off and a reception? They make the same call on balls caught inside the endzone all the time. You half to maintain control going to the ground. The plane makes no difference on legal NFL reception or not.

Do you not understand the difference between someone juggling a ball, failing to maintain control and having it come loose on the ground versus someone clearly maintaining possession with both hands to the point where they thrust it across the goal line, having it come loose only upon contact with the ground.

xenocide · Post by **xenocide** » Mon Dec 18, 2017 10:01 pm

You don't understand the rule. On a hand off there is prior possession and possession lost. On a reception, unless control is maintained through going to the ground possession is never attained. You don't like it but the rule is clear. Had the same thing happened in the middle of the endzone and he lost control going to the ground it would not be a catch, happens every week. That does not change because he first touched the ball before the endzone.

Jaymann · Post by **Jaymann** » Mon Dec 18, 2017 10:16 pm

I do understand the rule - it is a bad rule.

msteelers · Post by **msteelers** » Mon Dec 18, 2017 10:55 pm

Jaymann wrote:Here is why it is a bad rule:

If you hand the ball to a running back and he breaks the plane - touchdown! Even if he hits the ground and the ball comes out.

If you pass the ball and the exact same thing happens - incomplete pass!

You aren’t taking into account that a runner is a player who already has possession, while a receiver is someone attempting to gain possession.

The rules are clear. A player must have possession of the football when they cross the goal line. A receiver like James who is falling to the ground while catching the football MUST either maintain control of the football until he “survives the ground”, or regain control before the ball touches the ground.

Until that happens he CAN’T score a TD, because he doesn’t have possession.