Car/Ride Sharing

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Isgrimnur
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Car/Ride Sharing

Post by Isgrimnur »

It's enough of a thing these days for a thread

The Verge
Uber is facing a criminal probe from the US Justice Department over a piece of software it used to evade law enforcement and transportation regulators, according to Reuters. The program, known internally at Uber as “Greyball,” was first disclosed by a March report in The New York Times. Uber used the software tool to hide cars from regulators who were attempting to conduct sting operations on drivers in areas the company was not yet licensed to operate, such as Portland, Oregon.

Greyball was a multi-step defense, in Uber’s eyes, from those eager to “violate its terms of service.” The company claims it was developed as a way to cut down on fraud and protect drivers from violent taxi union protestors, and it claimed at the time that it still uses Greyball primarily for this purpose. “This program denies ride requests to users who are violating our terms of service,” Uber said in a statement back in March. “Whether that’s people aiming to physically harm drivers, competitors looking to disrupt our operations, or opponents who collude with officials on secret ‘stings’ meant to entrap drivers.”

The program worked by identifying suspicious users either based on credit card information, location, or the type of device being used to access the Uber app. The company went so far as to check credit card data against popular credit unions used by law enforcement and mining public social media data to determine the suspected person’s employment. Once a user was “Greyballed,” so to speak, Uber would show a different version of the its app with fake cars that would not respond to call requests.

The New York Times also reported late last month that Uber used a similar geofencing tactic to prevent Apple employees from discovering that it fingerprinted individual iPhones as part of an anti-fraud mechanism first deployed in China. Upon discovering the scheme, Apple CEO Tim Cook reportedly told Uber chief Travis Kalanick that the ride-hailing app would be kicked put of the App Store if the practice continued.
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Kasey Chang
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Re: Car/Ride Sharing

Post by Kasey Chang »

Ah, power of meta-data and data mining.

In the hands of good, it can save drivers. In the hands of not-so-good...
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Re: Car/Ride Sharing

Post by Skinypupy »

Running around doing meetings in DC/MD last week, and I ended up taking 6 Ubers in one day. Cost me a total of $120 (one was a long trip), and I'm sure it would have cost at least double that - if not more - if I had to take cabs. Not to mention the hassle of actually trying to find one in Fredrick, MD.

I have no idea how I managed before Uber.
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Re: Car/Ride Sharing

Post by Chaz »

One day, I'm going to be in a position where I can and need to use this. But living in NH, there's just not much need. Which is good, cuz there aren't that many drivers either.
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Re: Car/Ride Sharing

Post by Kasey Chang »

I take Lyft in San Francisco for short trips. I could take the bus, pay $2.50, and crowd with dozens and dozens of other people, and wait on routes as the bus meanders through the streets, or have a Lyft pick me up, share the vehicle with at most 2 other people, and get there in half the time... for $4+$1 tip. Choice for me is clear.
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Re: Car/Ride Sharing

Post by Punisher »

Skinypupy wrote:Running around doing meetings in DC/MD last week, and I ended up taking 6 Ubers in one day. Cost me a total of $120 (one was a long trip), and I'm sure it would have cost at least double that - if not more - if I had to take cabs. Not to mention the hassle of actually trying to find one in Fredrick, MD.

I have no idea how I managed before Uber.
Wouldn't it have been a lot cheaper to just rent a car?
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Skinypupy
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Re: Car/Ride Sharing

Post by Skinypupy »

Punisher wrote:
Skinypupy wrote:Running around doing meetings in DC/MD last week, and I ended up taking 6 Ubers in one day. Cost me a total of $120 (one was a long trip), and I'm sure it would have cost at least double that - if not more - if I had to take cabs. Not to mention the hassle of actually trying to find one in Fredrick, MD.

I have no idea how I managed before Uber.
Wouldn't it have been a lot cheaper to just rent a car?
Not with what they charge to park in DC.
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Re: Car/Ride Sharing

Post by Sudy »

I've been taking Uber to work for about two years now. I pay around $14 to go five miles. It takes less than fifteen minutes. Usually I get a ride home. This was a lot more affordable when I worked 3-4 12-hour shifts a week, instead of five days a week like I do now.

But I don't drive, and the alternative is a two-bus trip that costs $3.50 and takes around an hour doorstep to doorstep, which depending on the route and willingness to wait around, involves 20 minutes of walking. The walk is fine during the warmer months, but it's killer in the winter considering the sidewalks I'd be using aren't in a priority area and aren't quickly cleared.

Not to mention the extra $10 to take an Uber buys me about an extra hour of sleep/free time. To take a cab it would cost $20-25, which definitely isn't feasible. And around here, I never have to wait more than 5 minutes for an Uber. So yeah, it's changed my life for the better.

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Re: Car/Ride Sharing

Post by Paingod »

Sudy Nym wrote:I pay around $14 to go five miles.
I was about to sputter over the cost of that, and then stopped to do some math.

It costs about $19.24 per day to have my car sitting in my driveway, calling to just gas and car payments - let alone tires, oil changes, etc. What that gives me, though, is freedom to go anywhere I want anytime I want and get back the same way.

I've only ever used a cab a handful of times in my life, and never once used Uber or a similar system.
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Re: Car/Ride Sharing

Post by gilraen »

People at my work, that have to travel a lot - they swear by Uber. I have both Uber and Lyft apps on my phone, and I think I actually have some free ride credits on both, from various promotions. I just never had an occasion to use them. And the only time I *wish* I could have used them was last year in Rochester, NY, and they are not yet available in upstate NY.

At this point Uber has gotten enough bad press for my taste, I'm much more likely to use Lyft (if I ever do).
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Re: Car/Ride Sharing

Post by Skinypupy »

gilraen wrote:At this point Uber has gotten enough bad press for my taste, I'm much more likely to use Lyft (if I ever do).
FWIW, I've taken hundreds of Uber rides at this point, and yet to have a markedly bad experience. Maybe I was so used to the alternative (surly cab drivers in shitty, beat-up cars) that riding in a nice car with someone who is usually friendly (or at least neutral) was a refreshing change.
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Re: Car/Ride Sharing

Post by Kasey Chang »

Car is a mixed blessing in San Francisco. Within the city they are hell finding parking spaces. When going downtown, parking near a movie theater means costing $10 at least ($3 per hour, maybe $3.50 per hour past noon). Further away ain't much better. I can't get rid of mine as I need to go a different city sometimes for emergencies. The car's an old beater, but I'm paying $405 a month JUST FOR PARKING (block and a half away).

For short excursions like to a movie downtown I really just take Lyft for the heck of it, and sometimes, to Doctor's appointments when I know there won't be parking nearby.
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Re: Car/Ride Sharing

Post by Paingod »

I sometimes forget that life in actual "really big cities" is different than anywhere in Maine. Even in our most population-dense areas, parking is never really an issue. You might have to park a couple blocks away or pay $10 for a parking garage, but again, still 2-4 blocks away. Easy walking distance.
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Re: Car/Ride Sharing

Post by LordMortis »

Paingod wrote:I sometimes forget that life in actual "really big cities" is different than anywhere in Maine. Even in our most population-dense areas, parking is never really an issue. You might have to park a couple blocks away or pay $10 for a parking garage, but again, still 2-4 blocks away. Easy walking distance.
From where I live in SE Michigan to anywhere I need to pay for parking, it's way cheaper to pay for parking than it is to lyft or uber or cab or bus. Parking might be as much as $20 in downtown Detroit during a sporting event. However, if I were still going to the bars and getting liquored up, lyft or uber would be a nice alternative to get liquored up and driving, even if I am impatient by nature, and doubly so when I've had a few cocktails or beers and want to go home and go to bed.

One day, we might get a reasonable commuter rail. That will change the entire game. As it goes, the new Q1 rail line, goes, what 3 miles up and down downtown and doesn't run to bar time. So, completely useless (for my purpose).
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Re: Car/Ride Sharing

Post by gameoverman »

As long as they(Uber or the like) aren't breaking laws, I don't see the problem. If the information is out there, they get it, and they use it to filter out problem customers, that's fair. If they're breaking into databases or hiring hackers to do it, that's different.

On the taxi vs Uber thing, I still haven't read anyone post what a taxi offers me that an Uber driver doesn't, that would justify cracking down on Uber in favor of taxis. So far all I've read are arguments that start from the position that taxis are the 'right' way to do it, but no one explains why they are considered the right way to get rides.

I'm philosophically against the idea that if we've always done a thing a certain way, then it's default the right way until proven otherwise. I'm more on the side that says the new way is as acceptable as the old way unless you can make an argument that it's not.
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Re: Car/Ride Sharing

Post by LordMortis »

gameoverman wrote:As long as they(Uber or the like) aren't breaking laws, I don't see the problem. If the information is out there, they get it, and they use it to filter out problem customers, that's fair. If they're breaking into databases or hiring hackers to do it, that's different.

On the taxi vs Uber thing, I still haven't read anyone post what a taxi offers me that an Uber driver doesn't, that would justify cracking down on Uber in favor of taxis. So far all I've read are arguments that start from the position that taxis are the 'right' way to do it, but no one explains why they are considered the right way to get rides.

I'm philosophically against the idea that if we've always done a thing a certain way, then it's default the right way until proven otherwise. I'm more on the side that says the new way is as acceptable as the old way unless you can make an argument that it's not.
Because taxis go through the hoops and costs associated of being approved by local governments? Why pay for medallion in NYC if you can just be an independent uber driver?

That said, I don't know what advantage taxi services get for jumping through those hoops. The ability to stand where other cars can't?
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Re: Car/Ride Sharing

Post by Zarathud »

Taxi drivers have some accountability.

My wife was once in a cab that was rear-ended at a stop sign and cracked her neck. They seemed to be ok, but she was in shock and woke the next day to incapacitating pain. After contacting the cab company, we had enough info from the cabbie and the info on the guy who caused the accident. She settled for her medical bills and lost work (but should have held out for more), which was only possible because the cab driver knew how to document even a "everyone's ok" accident properly. I would not count on locating an Uber driver in those circumstances. Uber insurance may not pay if they're at fault -- the company position is the drivers are "independent."

Uber drivers have zero training required. In a city, you want someone who knows the streets and how to drive aggressively but safely. Uber drivers are usually not professionals.

Uber drivers have no background check unless forced by the city. You could have a sex offender, violent offender or whatever in an Uber. One of my cousins is an attractive young woman who had many bad situations with Uber drivers (more than cabs). Cab regulation means a company has a license to lose by hiring a bad hombre.

I have had both cabbies and Uber drivers try to rip me off and overcharge, but I can get on a hotline or call a main office with a cab. Uber doesn't give a fuck even on a $100 overcharge until you stop payment on the credit card.

Surge pricing. Taxis have to charge by the meter, but Ubers can (and will) bend you over during bad weather, sporting events and holidays. It's bullshit when my $15 ride could go over $40.

I no longer use Ubers except in emergencies or cabs are not available. They will be quicker, but not better.

Uber's leadership has done some shady shit. They claim the software is to prevent abusers and competitors, but they're the company who started calling up competitors for fake rides. Used their software to track regulators and "glory rides" when a customer hooked up at a bar. Their privacy violations prompted a warning from Apple that further violations would cause a ban of the Uber app.

What Uber did do was show an app and GOS can be used for a convenient real-time cab tracking system. Cool, but that can be replicated by others.
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Re: Car/Ride Sharing

Post by gameoverman »

Zarathud, those are good reasons for someone to choose taking a cab. It's not really an argument against Uber though.

"Shady" activities lol, come on! If I ruled out doing business with anyone who engaged in anything shady I couldn't even go out and live in the forest alone, because I've done shady things myself. No taxi company or driver ever did or does anything shady?

It's the human condition, it's in Uber but it's everywhere else too.

I can see why state and feds might be annoyed, if they aren't getting what they think is a big enough cut from Uber, while at the same time seeing their taxi ride cut shrinking. That's just greed though, it has nothing to do with quality of service or any other customer benefit.
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Re: Car/Ride Sharing

Post by mori »

I liked the idea of Uber that you get a fee and that is what you pay. Now Lyft comes along and brings the tipping model back. I hate that.
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Car/Ride Sharing

Post by Zarathud »

Since Uber now charges both you and the driver, tipping is encouraged.
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Re: Car/Ride Sharing

Post by Sudy »

Paingod wrote:
Sudy Nym wrote:I pay around $14 to go five miles.
I was about to sputter over the cost of that, and then stopped to do some math.

It costs about $19.24 per day to have my car sitting in my driveway, calling to just gas and car payments - let alone tires, oil changes, etc. What that gives me, though, is freedom to go anywhere I want anytime I want and get back the same way.
Yeah... I know from one standpoint it's ridiculous, but I don't own a car and it's not really financially feasible for me to right now. I'd be paying nearly $4 for a bus ticket anyway, so at that point the question is whether $10 is worth getting better sleep and saving nearly an hour of time that may involve walking in poor weather. For me, the answer is yes.

Zarathud wrote:Since Uber now charges both you and the driver, tipping is encouraged.
I'm OK with tipping, but it needs to be an option within the app. But I know that's unlikely to every happen since Uber doesn't want people tipping. As a non-driver, venturing out to the bank is a special trip. There are enough ATMs around, but they're not my bank's so I get charged a fee, and then I have to make change. And I don't want to have to carry around a pocketful of change anyway. Nor do I expect drivers to be setup for wireless micro-payments.

Lyft isn't available in my area, so they're not an option. Though my lack of tipping thus far hasn't resulted in poor ratings, so perhaps it's not common/expected in Toronto yet.

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Re: Car/Ride Sharing

Post by Punisher »

gameoverman wrote: "Shady" activities lol, come on! If I ruled out doing business with anyone who engaged in anything shady I couldn't even go out and live in the forest alone,
That wouldn't work.. Forest's are one of the shadyess places on earth.
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Re: Car/Ride Sharing

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Kasey Chang wrote:Car is a mixed blessing in San Francisco. Within the city they are hell finding parking spaces. When going downtown, parking near a movie theater means costing $10 at least ($3 per hour, maybe $3.50 per hour past noon). Further away ain't much better. I can't get rid of mine as I need to go a different city sometimes for emergencies. The car's an old beater, but I'm paying $405 a month JUST FOR PARKING (block and a half away).

For short excursions like to a movie downtown I really just take Lyft for the heck of it, and sometimes, to Doctor's appointments when I know there won't be parking nearby.
Isn't it cheaper just to get a Zipcar membership or something to that effect than $405 a month for parking a beater? That seems like an odd circumstance.
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Re: Car/Ride Sharing

Post by hitbyambulance »

gameoverman wrote:"Shady" activities lol, come on! If I ruled out doing business with anyone who engaged in anything shady I couldn't even go out and live in the forest alone, because I've done shady things myself. No taxi company or driver ever did or does anything shady?
it's encouraged in the company culture, and the CEO is a douchecanoe - no way i'm supporting that.
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Re: Car/Ride Sharing

Post by Kasey Chang »

FishPants wrote:Isn't it cheaper just to get a Zipcar membership or something to that effect than $405 a month for parking a beater? That seems like an odd circumstance.
Yeah, but Zipcar charges you by the HOUR and mileage charges are hellish. 45 cents PER MILE if I go over 180 (and I may, depending on how far I go) AND $7 per hour.

OTOH, I am seriously considering it. I live block and a half from a Zipcar spot (in fact, it's the same garage I park in) and I only drive about 4 days out of the week, and not for very far (usually, 20-40 miles a day) but I'm usually out shopping and stuff and spend hours at a time. It's just a lot of think about giving up, not that my car is in the greatest of shape. If I need to do any more major repair on the car, I'm junking it and go Zipcar.

I can probably keep my monthly car expenses down to $200 instead of $600+ ($400 parking, $60 insurance, $140 gas), that's should be good amount of savings... Hmmm...

EDIT: There are no $7 / hour cars near me. Closest would be $12 per hour cars (Honda Civic). Still, $12 for one hour, that ain't bad... and rarely worry about parking... Hmmm...
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Re: Car/Ride Sharing

Post by em2nought »

Tried Uber in Tampa and Sarasota. Worked well for me in Sarasota. Twice I got drivers in Tampa that just left me hanging, and I had to get another driver. The first no show was just dumb as a box of rocks and couldn't find me, the second no show was being picky on what fares he took I think. The first no show charged me $5 for me being a no show LMAO, and since I was out of country for two weeks, and something wasn't working with Uber's verification login process I didn't have time to dispute the charge. Oh, an somehow I lost the first free trip code I was supposed to get. I found their app very clunky, at least for an old guy like me. ...but I liked the whole concept and price, and I'll probably still use them again the next time I travel. Beats paying astronomical prices for parking at the airport, or supporting that whole medallion gov't sanctioned/mafia-esk seeming cab business. :ninja:

I may need them again soon as my universal joint seems to be hanging by a thread. :(
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Re: Car/Ride Sharing

Post by Sudy »

I've definitely had issues with random drivers, the app, and Uber's "customer service". But not enough to complain about considering the vast majority of rides are issue-less.

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Re: Car/Ride Sharing

Post by Kasey Chang »

I signed up for Zipcar to see how it is. Turns out insurance is included, but it's 1000 deductible. They will sell you 350 deductible insurance for $5 more a month, or 0 deductible insurance for 9 more a month.

Hopefully I get my card in a week and give it a couple spins. If everything works, I'm getting rid of my car by end of the month.
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Re: Car/Ride Sharing

Post by Reemul »

Slightly off topic but there is a super BBC comedy starring Peter Kaye called Car Share, highly recommended and very very funny (with a great soundtrack).
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Re: Car/Ride Sharing

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Kasey Chang wrote:I signed up for Zipcar to see how it is. Turns out insurance is included, but it's 1000 deductible. They will sell you 350 deductible insurance for $5 more a month, or 0 deductible insurance for 9 more a month.

Hopefully I get my card in a week and give it a couple spins. If everything works, I'm getting rid of my car by end of the month.
Glad I could help, hope it works out.. I found that zipcar was good for trips around the city, and if going any length of time I would just rent from Alamo or something similar with a third weekend free deal. Made it pretty affordable (this was also quite some time ago, I live in the country and need my own vehicle now).

What I liked about Zipcar was it didn't count as a time period "without car insurance" here in Canada, which if that wasn't the case to get insurance again down the road it would cost a fortune (like a new driver).
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Re: Car/Ride Sharing

Post by Isgrimnur »

Driving in Canada qualifies as a pre-existing condition?
It's almost as if people are the problem.
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Re: Car/Ride Sharing

Post by Jeff V »

Isgrimnur wrote:Driving in Canada qualifies as a pre-existing condition?
No, what you're thinking of is "driving while Canadian."
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Re: Car/Ride Sharing

Post by Kasey Chang »

Tried the ZIpCar Monday, reserved a Subaru Impreza (11.50 an hour!) but it was a NICE car. Didn't quite get used to the idea that I have to lock/unlock using the card, rather than the keyfob or keys, but that's fine. :) Returned it 15 minutes early, and the spot is valet so just left it. My only regret... The garage that is most often available... Is on top of the hill, a VERY steep uphill walk. Argh. The garage I'd prefer to get my car from... has strange availability problems...
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Re: Car/Ride Sharing

Post by Jeff V »

You know what could get you up that hill with no effort at all? A car. :ninja:
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Re: Car/Ride Sharing

Post by Giles Habibula »

Reemul wrote:Slightly off topic but there is a super BBC comedy starring Peter Kaye called Car Share, highly recommended and very very funny (with a great soundtrack).
Thanks. I enjoyed it.
For anyone curious, here's Series 1 Episode 1.
I found the humor to be mild and relaxing; very laid-back. Just what I needed at this moment.
Also, the girl is quite pretty. That never hurts.
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Re: Car/Ride Sharing

Post by coopasonic »

Kasey Chang wrote:The garage that is most often available... Is on top of the hill, a VERY steep uphill walk. Argh. The garage I'd prefer to get my car from... has strange availability problems...
Location: San Francisco, CA
ummm.. you don't say?
-Coop
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Kasey Chang
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Re: Car/Ride Sharing

Post by Kasey Chang »

Quarter of a mile uphill walking is a workout, man. :)
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Punisher
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Re: Car/Ride Sharing

Post by Punisher »

Kasey Chang wrote:Quarter of a mile uphill walking is a workout, man. :)
But is it uphill both ways in the snow?
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Kasey Chang
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Re: Car/Ride Sharing

Post by Kasey Chang »

OTOH, I think I lost weight in the last couple weeks, AND I'm noticing a reduced waist size... Hmmm...
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Re: Car/Ride Sharing

Post by Isgrimnur »

The CEO of Uber just resigned amid investor turmoil.
It's almost as if people are the problem.
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