[Movie] Black Panther

[Ralph-Wiggum]

Saw the movie over the weekend and liked it. It wasn't my favorite Marvel movie, but probably would be in the top 5. I really liked Michael B. Jordan's character, but I wish that 1) he had gotten more screen time, especially pre-Wakanda, and 2) they hadn't made him so clearly psychotic. His almost indiscriminate killing in the last third of the movie made him much less sympathetic. Maybe that was the goal, but I sort of liked it earlier int he movie when you could see his side of the argument without attaching it to his over-the-top actions.

[hepcat]

Yeah, it would have been nice to see him

Spoiler:

show even a little remorse for killing his girlfriend when Klaue took her hostage at one point

Edit: although, on second thought, he was covered with literally hundreds of marks indicating his kills. So I'm guessing death had long stopped holding any real significance to him. He was one damaged individual.

[Isgrimnur]

Klaue (god I hate that spelling...although I know in the later comics they spelled his real last name that way. Still, I prefer Klaw, damn it! )

Germanophobe.



Wiki

Ulysses Klaue is the son of Nazi war criminal Colonel Fritz Klaue of the Blitzkrieg Squad led by Baron Strucker. He was sent by Adolf Hitler to Wakanda to learn their secrets. After World War II, he moved back to Belgium, later anglicized his name to "Klaw," and raised his son with tales of Wakanda.

[gameoverman]

Yeah, I don't remember exactly what was being organized there, so I'll go with what you said. Guess I'll just have to go watch it again soon!

I think he was about to kick things off. The reason I think that is

Spoiler:

they had a spy in place right beside him all along. So why didn't they pick him up earlier? Why at that time, right before this operation he was planning? I think it's because that would have been the first attack/battle of his plan if they didn't stop him. They were giving him every chance to change his mind or otherwise get back in line. It was only when they knew he was going for it that they stepped in.

[hepcat]

Disney is donating a million dollars to STEM from the film's proceeds.

Yes, the jaded part of me tries to write this off as a publicity stunt. But the better part of me thinks this is great. Black Panther may not be another Citizen Kane, but I do think it's a cultural watershed.

[Isgrimnur]

Walt Disney Company Philanthropy

The Data Table (PDF) contains a lot of stuff for it to be just publicity stunts.

[hepcat]

hence my comment that it was coming from my jaded side.

[Grifman]

I really like the movie but I am going to nitpick a couple of things here:

Wakanda is portrayed as the most advanced nation on earth yet:

1) They use an archaic and indeed illogical and dangerous (to the nation) method of choosing their king, and everything is based upon the tribe. Though the tribes seem to provide members of an advisory council (I'm guessing), there's no hint of representative democracy.

2) The last battle is a giant melee fest. Where are the high tech guns? I know, a big shootout isn't as much fun as a giant smackdown but it is totally illogical. (I'll also not that the new Avenger's trailer shows two sides charging towards each other for apparent melee combat, which again, is a totally illogical way of fighting for such a high tech nation.

[Punisher]

I really like the movie but I am going to nitpick a couple of things here:

Wakanda is portrayed as the most advanced nation on earth yet:

1) They use an archaic and indeed illogical and dangerous (to the nation) method of choosing their king, and everything is based upon the tribe. Though the tribes seem to provide members of an advisory council (I'm guessing), there's no hint of representative democracy.

2) The last battle is a giant melee fest. Where are the high tech guns? I know, a big shootout isn't as much fun as a giant smackdown but it is totally illogical. (I'll also not that the new Avenger's trailer shows two sides charging towards each other for apparent melee combat, which again, is a totally illogical way of fighting for such a high tech nation.

For 1) I think that was just them sticking to their roots, even with their advancements.
For 2) I don't recall the Black Panther ever using guns to be honest.

[TheMix]

Probably time to add "Spoilers" to the title. In case there are folks that still haven't seen it.

[noxiousdog]

I really like the movie but I am going to nitpick a couple of things here:

Wakanda is portrayed as the most advanced nation on earth yet:

Spoiler:

1) They use an archaic and indeed illogical and dangerous (to the nation) method of choosing their king, and everything is based upon the tribe. Though the tribes seem to provide members of an advisory council (I'm guessing), there's no hint of representative democracy.

2) The last battle is a giant melee fest. Where are the high tech guns? I know, a big shootout isn't as much fun as a giant smackdown but it is totally illogical. (I'll also not that the new Avenger's trailer shows two sides charging towards each other for apparent melee combat, which again, is a totally illogical way of fighting for such a high tech nation.

Spoiler:

For 1) I think that was just them sticking to their roots, even with their advancements.
For 2) I don't recall the Black Panther ever using guns to be honest.

Spoiler:

I don't think you can have it both ways though. Either, they would have had a warmonger king in their hundreds of years of history, or they can decide to name their king by combat. You shouldn't get the best of both worlds; ie only the wise isolationist king wins the combat.

[Jaymann]

I saw this yesterday. My only complaint is there wasn't enough actual Black Panther in it. And I kept wondeering where the spike of Unobtainium stolen from the museum got to. Turns out:

Spoiler:

it was a McGuffin.

[gilraen]

Unobtainium

Wrong movie

[gameoverman]

"Advanced" doesn't necessarily mean democratic. Traditions that are outdated or make no sense exist even here in the US in 2018. So if we account for

Spoiler:

Wakanda having advanced tech and complete protection from the outside world, it makes sense that tradition would hold sway there. If anything, it would be more steeped in tradition. Where would the push for voting come from? Why would they want it? What benefit would it give the people that they don't already have?

[noxiousdog]

"Advanced" doesn't necessarily mean democratic. Traditions that are outdated or make no sense exist even here in the US in 2018. So if we account for

Spoiler:

Wakanda having advanced tech and complete protection from the outside world, it makes sense that tradition would hold sway there. If anything, it would be more steeped in tradition. Where would the push for voting come from? Why would they want it? What benefit would it give the people that they don't already have?

Spoiler:

That's why I'm not opposed to it per se, but they wouldn't have had an expansionist King at some point then.

[gameoverman]

"Advanced" doesn't necessarily mean democratic. Traditions that are outdated or make no sense exist even here in the US in 2018. So if we account for

Spoiler:

Wakanda having advanced tech and complete protection from the outside world, it makes sense that tradition would hold sway there. If anything, it would be more steeped in tradition. Where would the push for voting come from? Why would they want it? What benefit would it give the people that they don't already have?

Spoiler:

That's why I'm not opposed to it per se, but they wouldn't have had an expansionist King at some point then.

Maybe I have this part wrong but I got the impression from the movie that there was little interest in

Spoiler:

expansionism in Wakanda. What little dissent they had seemed to be more focused on wanting to help outsiders, not make Wakanda bigger or more powerful around the world. My point being that no one who'd challenge to be king would be interested in trying to pitch a 'Let's take over the world' plan to the other tribes. In fact, in the movie that idea comes from someone who is an outsider, not someone who was born and raised there. And even he pitches it as saving their people, not actually taking over per se. So I think even the most aggressive king would still not be interested in starting a fight outside their borders.

[noxiousdog]

Spoiler:

Maybe I have this part wrong but I got the impression from the movie that there was little interest in

Spoiler:

expansionism in Wakanda. What little dissent they had seemed to be more focused on wanting to help outsiders, not make Wakanda bigger or more powerful around the world. My point being that no one who'd challenge to be king would be interested in trying to pitch a 'Let's take over the world' plan to the other tribes. In fact, in the movie that idea comes from someone who is an outsider, not someone who was born and raised there. And even he pitches it as saving their people, not actually taking over per se. So I think even the most aggressive king would still not be interested in starting a fight outside their borders.

Spoiler:

Really? An aggressive tribal leader wouldn't challenge?

I find that hard to believe especially with how easily they had a civil war. Wakandans are not hippies.

[gameoverman]

Spoiler:

Maybe I have this part wrong but I got the impression from the movie that there was little interest in

Spoiler:

expansionism in Wakanda. What little dissent they had seemed to be more focused on wanting to help outsiders, not make Wakanda bigger or more powerful around the world. My point being that no one who'd challenge to be king would be interested in trying to pitch a 'Let's take over the world' plan to the other tribes. In fact, in the movie that idea comes from someone who is an outsider, not someone who was born and raised there. And even he pitches it as saving their people, not actually taking over per se. So I think even the most aggressive king would still not be interested in starting a fight outside their borders.

Spoiler:

Really? An aggressive tribal leader wouldn't challenge?

I find that hard to believe especially with how easily they had a civil war. Wakandans are not hippies.

To me it has nothing to do with aggression. It's about culture.

Spoiler:

I got the impression they all live, and were raised in, a culture where expanding out was anathema. The entire moral dilemma of the movie, staying out of sight vs helping their people around the world, is only a question because it's so ingrained in them to keep to themselves. I can see why they'd be that way, they have everything they could want as a self contained country. There won't be a lot of support for rocking that boat. Fighting among each other for power is part of their tradition, expanding out is not.

[noxiousdog]

Spoiler:

Maybe I have this part wrong but I got the impression from the movie that there was little interest in

Spoiler:

expansionism in Wakanda. What little dissent they had seemed to be more focused on wanting to help outsiders, not make Wakanda bigger or more powerful around the world. My point being that no one who'd challenge to be king would be interested in trying to pitch a 'Let's take over the world' plan to the other tribes. In fact, in the movie that idea comes from someone who is an outsider, not someone who was born and raised there. And even he pitches it as saving their people, not actually taking over per se. So I think even the most aggressive king would still not be interested in starting a fight outside their borders.

Spoiler:

Really? An aggressive tribal leader wouldn't challenge?

I find that hard to believe especially with how easily they had a civil war. Wakandans are not hippies.

To me it has nothing to do with aggression. It's about culture.

Spoiler:

I got the impression they all live, and were raised in, a culture where expanding out was anathema. The entire moral dilemma of the movie, staying out of sight vs helping their people around the world, is only a question because it's so ingrained in them to keep to themselves. I can see why they'd be that way, they have everything they could want as a self contained country. There won't be a lot of support for rocking that boat. Fighting among each other for power is part of their tradition, expanding out is not.

Spoiler:

And nobody in centuries untold would have ever bucked that culture?

Not a chance when given an opportunity half the people jumped on it.

[Rumpy]

Saw it last night and thought it was quite good. Easily one of the best they've put out. In fact, it made me feel like how I felt watching Ironman for the first time.

One thing confused me though:

Spoiler:

Vibranium. Isn't that the stuff that powered Ironman's suit? If that's the case, then I suppose it wouldn't be unheard of to have more than one source for something. But still, this movie made it sound like it was very rare. Also Klaue's arm, very distinctly reminded me of Ironman, so much so that when he started talking about the cave, I thought he meant the one in the original Ironman.

[hepcat]

Iron Man's suit isn't made out of vibranium. It's very rare outside Wakanda. Cap's shield is made from it, but that's about it.

edit: that wiki does note he uses vibranium to power his building later on. but I'm guessing he bought it from the Wakandans at a hefty price.

[hentzau]

Stark used palladium to power his first suit.

[Rumpy]

Iron Man's suit isn't made out of vibranium. It's very rare outside Wakanda. Cap's shield is made from it, but that's about it.

edit: that wiki does note he uses vibranium to power his building later on. but I'm guessing he bought it from the Wakandans at a hefty price.

Ok, I knew I heard it somewhere else at least, so I'm not crazy

[Kasey Chang]

Watched it Friday noon. As some reviews stated, it feels like a Shakespearean tragedy, "sins of our fathers" and all that. And Killmonger may be the most... sympathetic nemesis ever. He's obviously disturbed (and reasonably so), his reasons actually made sense and we can relate to and understand and all that.

[Skinypupy]

Late to the party, but holy shit...that movie was just fantastic. And this is coming from someone who has grown increasingly bored with the superhero formula. They just did a truly amazing job, and I really can’t think of a thing I’d change. Can’t wait to see it again.

The theater that was 3/4 full for a 5:00 Tuesday showing a month+ after release is certainly a testament to its staying power.

[Scuzz]

I saw this last Sunday. I enjoyed it but I thought there were (yea, I know its a comic book fantasy) some things that just made no sense. The WCW Cage Match method of choosing a king to start with. It's always good to have the leader of an advanced civilization be chosen thru trial by combat.

I liked the first 2/3, but thought the last 1/3 was kinda meh.

[El Guapo]

I saw this last Sunday. I enjoyed it but I thought there were (yea, I know its a comic book fantasy) some things that just made no sense. The WCW Cage Match method of choosing a king to start with. It's always good to have the leader of an advanced civilization be chosen thru trial by combat.

I liked the first 2/3, but thought the last 1/3 was kinda meh.

My sense from the movie was that the trial by combat thing was *supposed* to be a pro forma ritual. E.g., here's your chance to challenge, the houses all say "no, we're good (because the new king is so great)", and then proceed to the coronation. The challenges came from the outcast house and from Killmonger. And note that when Killmonger pressed his challenge one of T'Challa's advisors (don't remember which one) wisely told him to not accept the challenge, which would suggest that that was an option at least at that point.

[Scuzz]

The option to reject the challenge was probably only because Killmonger had missed the appointed cage match day.

[msteelers]

The option to reject the challenge was probably only because Killmonger had missed the appointed cage match day.

I thought it was because people either doubted or didn’t want to believe that Killmonger was half Wakandan. Since T’Challa knew the truth, he knew rejecting the challenge wasn’t an option.

That’s my memory on it anyway, and I haven’t seen the movie since it first came out.

[El Guapo]

The option to reject the challenge was probably only because Killmonger had missed the appointed cage match day.

I thought it was because people either doubted or didn’t want to believe that Killmonger was half Wakandan. Since T’Challa knew the truth, he knew rejecting the challenge wasn’t an option.

That’s my memory on it anyway, and I haven’t seen the movie since it first came out.

The movie doesn't make it clear, but it seems like either one would be sufficient to reject the challenge. During the first challenge scene they make a big point of saying "if any of the houses want to submit a challenger, now's the time." So it would stand to reason that any time after that (and especially after T'Challa has been officially crowned) would be too late. I think T'Challa accepted the challenge because he was young and impetuous (and because Killmonger had a decent claim to the throne, so there might be more internal grumbling if it's not resolved).

Anyway, it's reading into things, but the fact that NONE of the established houses made any kind of a challenge (just the hill folk who are excluded from general Wakandan society) suggests that there's some sort of gentlemen's understanding that you don't make a challenge, at least unless there's something seriously wrong.

[Scuzz]

Wouldn't that mean the other tribes had pretty much given over power to whichever one T'Challa was in? Groups don't usually do that.

[Alefroth]

Klaue (god I hate that spelling...although I know in the later comics they spelled his real last name that way. Still, I prefer Klaw, damn it! )

Germanophobe.



Wiki

Ulysses Klaue is the son of Nazi war criminal Colonel Fritz Klaue of the Blitzkrieg Squad led by Baron Strucker. He was sent by Adolf Hitler to Wakanda to learn their secrets. After World War II, he moved back to Belgium, later anglicized his name to "Klaw," and raised his son with tales of Wakanda.

Pronounced klow-eh

[Isgrimnur]

Because you pronounce all the vowels.

[McNutt]

I'm late to this game. I thought the movie was like most of the Marvel movies. It's good, nothing especially memorable though. One thing they have done in these movies though is make a villain that has a bit of depth to them and is not some run-of-the-mill powermonger/crazy person.

My biggest gripe is that Wakanda is a technological marvel. They are centuries ahead of the rest of the world, yet they are led by a king who can be legally overthrown in single combat. I don't know if that's insulting or not.

[pr0ner]

Tradition dies hard.

[hepcat]

It still works that way in England. Anyone can call out Queen Elizabeth and if they best her in hand to hand combat, they take the crown. But she's tough...and wiry.

[El Guapo]

It still works that way in England. Anyone can call out Queen Elizabeth and if they best her in hand to hand combat, they take the crown. But she's tough...and wiry.

You'll get her next time, hepcat.

[hepcat]

I thought allowing her to apply body grease prior to the challenge was unfair.

[El Guapo]

It's like you haven't even read Ye Olde Ruwels On Chaellenges and Greasses Edict of 1357, man. You really gotta prepare for these things.

[Smoove_B]

In case you're looking for something positive in all the bad, ABC is airing Black Panther tonight without commercials, followed by a tribute to Chadwick Boseman, via Rolling Stone.

Black Panther will air commercial-free on the network beginning at 8 p.m., with the blockbuster immediately followed by Chadwick Boseman – A Tribute for a King.

“The ABC News special will celebrate Boseman’s storied life, legacy and career, and the cultural imprint he made on- and off-screen,” ABC and Marvel said of Tribute for a King.

“It will feature tributes that have poured in from celebrities, political figures and fans across the world, special words from those who starred alongside him and knew Boseman best, and shine a light on the medical condition he privately battled.”