The US Navy can't stop hitting things

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Isgrimnur
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The US Navy can't stop hitting things

Post by Isgrimnur »

August 2016 - Navy Investigating USS Louisiana Nuclear Submarine Collision into MSC Ship

February 2017 - USS Antietam guided-missile cruiser runs aground, leaks oil

May 2017 - Cruiser Lake Champlain Collides With South Korean Fishing Vessel That Lacked Radio, GPS

June 2017 - Timeline: USS Fitzgerald Collision

August 2017 - Ten sailors missing, five injured after USS John S. McCain collides with merchant ship near Strait of Malacca

And it's costing people their lives. Seven died on the Fitzgerald, and with ten missing on the McCain, that number is likely to rise.
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Re: The US Navy can't stop hitting things

Post by Daehawk »

Ive noticed the trend too. Its like they lack training or something.

But this time notice it says the damage is port side aft. How did they hit something with the ass of their ship? Sounds like they got hit.
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Re: The US Navy can't stop hitting things

Post by Blackhawk »

Either turning combined with inertia, or they tried to pass in front of something and got clipped. The latter seems more likely. It said it was transitioning to port in Singapore, and that can be pretty busy.
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Re: The US Navy can't stop hitting things

Post by Pyperkub »

That's too bad.
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Re: The US Navy can't stop hitting things

Post by Isgrimnur »

The McCain:

Enlarge Image

USNI
An oval indentation more than 20 feet wide and seven to eight feet high from the water line can be seen in the port side of the destroyer, suggesting the dimensions of the hole in the ship could be as large as 20 feet by 16 feet.
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Re: The US Navy can't stop hitting things

Post by dbt1949 »

Bump!
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Post by LawBeefaroni »

The US Navy can't stop hitting things
Sure they can!
A U.S. Missile Defense Agency investigation found a sailor on the destroyer John Paul Jones, the Navy's ballistic missile defense test ship, pressed the wrong button into the combat system, causing the missile to self-destruct before reaching its target.

...
The test, which occurred on June 22, was the fourth test of the missile defense system, which is known as SM-3 Block IIA.
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Re: The US Navy can't stop hitting things

Post by Isgrimnur »

The Hill
Adm. John Richardson, the chief of naval operations, will call for a temporary halt in operations for the Pacific-based 7th Fleet, the forces that operate around Japan.

“He has put together a broader inquiry to look into these incidents and to determine any of the causal factors to determine what’s going on,” Defense Secretary James Mattis told reporters while traveling in Amman, Jordan.

Richardson will announce the review in a video message on Monday, calling for an “operational pause” to take “a deeper look into how we train and certify forces operating in and around Japan,” The Washington Examiner reported.
...
Mattis said on Monday that Richardson’s review is a broader investigation to “look at all related accidents, incidents at sea,” rather than just the latest incident.

“We obviously have a [separate] investigation underway that will determine what happened,” Mattis said.
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Re: The US Navy can't stop hitting things

Post by Brian »

Donald Trump (Probably) wrote:What a loser. I like the ships that DON'T get hit. MUSNGA
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Re: The US Navy can't stop hitting things

Post by gameoverman »

I find this unsettling. How hard would it be for an enemy country to secretly gain control of merchant ships and the like, with the intention of using those civilian assets to slowly clog up certain strategic shipping lanes. If you squeeze enough big ships in a small area, it's only a matter of time till accidents happen.

Not to point fingers but what if the Chinese came up with this method to make the US Navy curtail or end operations in the area, and all without a shot being fired or even any tough talk being necessary.
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Re: The US Navy can't stop hitting things

Post by Pyperkub »

Brian wrote:
Donald Trump (Probably) wrote:What a loser. I like the ships that DON'T get hit. MUSNGA
Actually he said "That's too bad." when first informed (hence my apparently cryptic post above).

Lots of people cheesed off about the callous reaction to loss of Navy lives.
Black Lives definitely Matter Lorini!

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Re: The US Navy can't stop hitting things

Post by Brian »

Ugh, I can't believe I'm about to defend Mr. Tangerine Man.

His response was before finding out that 10 sailors were reported missing so dinging him for being callous is a bit premature.

Now, I have no problems believing once he did find out that sailors were missing that he likely shrugged and made the same response but being outraged at his initial response is a bit disingenuous.
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Re: The US Navy can't stop hitting things

Post by Holman »

Online there's a lot of chatter about the possibility of hacked GPS or hacked radar, but I find that a little hard to believe. Are big ships so unwieldy that collisions are impossible to avoid at lookout/signaling ranges?

I can understand that a tanker is hard to divert, but is something like a DDG completely at the mercy of its electronic navigation now?
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Re: The US Navy can't stop hitting things

Post by Smoove_B »

I'd need to let anyone with experience and knowledge chime in, but as a casual observer, it sure does seem like this is more than coincidence. I don't then go to the idea that there's active sabotage happening, but it sure does seem like something is wrong. Faulty equipment? Reliance on electronics and not eyeballs (if that even makes sense on this scale)? Inadequate training? Overworked crew?
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Re: The US Navy can't stop hitting things

Post by Rip »

Brian wrote:Ugh, I can't believe I'm about to defend Mr. Tangerine Man.

His response was before finding out that 10 sailors were reported missing so dinging him for being callous is a bit premature.

Now, I have no problems believing once he did find out that sailors were missing that he likely shrugged and made the same response but being outraged at his initial response is a bit disingenuous.
I makes me wonder what the hell his people are doing. No way he should not have already known about the incident at that point. I would be throwing some shit around my office and screaming at people for letting me get caught not aware.
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Re: The US Navy can't stop hitting things

Post by em2nought »

Personally I think the USN replaced their entire fleet over the last twenty years, and just realized that they won't be able to a$k for new toy$ for another twenty year$. Now they're looking for way$ to get new pretty toy$ to play with. Funny, from that list it looks like the less windows you have, the less likely you are to collide. Maybe the USN needs automated vehicles more than the private sector does. LMAO

Or maybe these collisions and mechanical breakdowns are just "Fat Leonard" getting revenge? :think:

Might also be just another case of texting while driving. :wink:
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Re: The US Navy can't stop hitting things

Post by Jaddison »

couple things here. Going through a congested area you do not solely navigate off of GPS and radar unless there is reduced visibility.
Ships on the surface always have lookouts posted and in congested areas SHOULD (but maybe they didn't) have extra lookouts on watch as well as additional navigation/CIC watchstanders.
As an OOD you do not rely on electronics for the safe navigation of the ship, you should always be doing visuals including doing some quick maneuvering board work on contacts of interest

There is a rule of thumb that any contact with zero bearing rate needs to have the range determined ASAP because zero bearing means you are going to collide unless the zero bearing rate is being driven by extreme range.

The ship is reported to have lost maneuvering control which under the Rules of the Nautical means a a vessel not under command- either they lost propulsion or they lost the rudder or both. If all they lost was the rudder they should have backup steering capability as well as the ability to use the two engines to do some maneuvering. If they lost propulsion in a busy strait they are pretty much at the mercy of the currents but as soon as they lost it they should show red over red lights on the main mast to let everyone know they are "not under command" and that it is incumbent on other ships to stay clear.

Large merchants have no "in reverse" it saves money not to have it plus backing is so inefficient and they are so big it wouldn't do much to stop them at all. So if the McCain lost propulsion and a large merchant was over taking them because they were DIW the merchant most likely couldn't slow down quickly and may not have room to get around without hitting something else or they were late is realizing McCain was not under command. McCain should have been broadcasting on local traffic frequencies that they had a problem.

These are all the things that should have happened. What really did happen is often a sad tale of not doing what we were trained to do, not having good situational awareness and not taking action early
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Re: The US Navy can't stop hitting things

Post by UsulofDoom »

I don't understand how crew members could still be in bunks when it happens. What happened to collision alarms or man your stations. If a ship is coming close it should of sounded alarms.
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Re: The US Navy can't stop hitting things

Post by Isgrimnur »

WSJ
The Wall Street Journal reported Tuesday that the Navy was planning to remove Vice Adm. Joseph Aucoin —the three-star commander of U.S. Seventh Fleet in Yokosuka, Japan—though officials had declined to comment.

In a short statement Wednesday, the Navy said Adm. Scott Swift, the commander of U.S. Pacific Fleet, had relieved him “due to a loss of confidence in his ability to command.”

Vice Adm. Aucoin was expected to retire in coming weeks, but under the Navy’s tradition of public accountability, commanders or ship captains are dismissed as soon as their superiors lose confidence in their leadership.

His removal doesn’t represent a specific finding of fault against Vice Adm. Aucoin. Navy officials are investigating the role that training, manning and other internal fleet processes may have played in the collisions.
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Re: The US Navy can't stop hitting things

Post by gameoverman »

Some of those old WWII movies depict hard nosed officers on board ships, with other officers who aren't so by the book. The crew always likes and respects the laid back officers.

I wonder how similar real life is to that, is it a case where some officers tolerate the crew slacking off a bit as long as the work gets done? What happens if that attitude is tolerated all down the chain of command and then that relaxed crew screws up? The navy needs a bunch of Stannis Baratheons, not a bunch of Renlys.
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Re: The US Navy can't stop hitting things

Post by Jaddison »

I doubt that bridge watches in a bust strait would be slacking off. Most of our major collisions involve GCE of the situation they are in or that watchstanders feel they are not empowered to take action on their own if they feel the ship is standing into danger. If i read between the lines on some of the statements from the Navy they are thinking that perhaps the high operations tempo is burning our crews because the Navy is smaller but with vastly more capable platforms- except that there is only one crew. Less ships but same level of operations mean crews are spending more and more time at sea in high stress situations. I also can infer that the high optempo is also affecting material readiness- there was a note that sailors on McCain had perform 15 depot level repairs in the last few months- depot level repairs mean they should be done in a shipyard or drydock or at least during an extended availability pier side.

Optempo is hitting all the services hard. An all volunteer force fed by a shrinking generational cohort on top of the fact that the smaller generations also are full of weight challenged individuals and also a lot of drug use mean it is getting harder to fill the ranks.

Higher optempo also means it is more difficult to find dedicated training time, training time where it is okay to learn, okay to look bad so you can learn from mistakes.
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Re: The US Navy can't stop hitting things

Post by Isgrimnur »

Search becomes recovery
After more than 80 hours of multinational search efforts, the U.S. Navy suspended search and rescue efforts for missing USS John S. McCain (DDG 56) Sailors in an approximately 2,100-square mile area east of the Straits of Malacca and Singapore.
...
U.S. Navy and Marine Corps divers will continue search and recovery efforts inside flooded compartments in the ship for the missing Sailors.

The divers recovered the remains of one Sailor, confirmed as: Electronics Technician 3rd Class Kenneth Aaron Smith, 22, from Cherry Hill, New Jersey.

Still missing are:
  • Electronics Technician 1st Class Charles Nathan Findley, 31, from Amazonia, Missouri
  • Interior Communications Electrician 1st Class Abraham Lopez, 39, from El Paso, Texas
  • Electronics Technician 2nd Class Kevin Sayer Bushell, 26, from Gaithersburg, Maryland
  • Electronics Technician 2nd Class Jacob Daniel Drake, 21, from Cable, Ohio
  • Information Systems Technician 2nd Class Timothy Thomas Eckels Jr., 23, from Manchester, Maryland
  • Information Systems Technician 2nd Class Corey George Ingram, 28, from Poughkeepsie, New York
  • Electronics Technician 3rd Class Dustin Louis Doyon, 26, from Suffield, Connecticut
  • Electronics Technician 3rd Class John Henry Hoagland III, 20, from Killeen, Texas
  • Interior Communications Electrician 3rd Class Logan Stephen Palmer, 23, from Decatur, Illinois
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Re: The US Navy can't stop hitting things

Post by Jaddison »

Here is part 1 of what promises to be a serious takedown of today's surface fleet training approach and does answer a lot of questions.
My react is - Holy shit whoever thought that would work out? As a submariner this is just absurd as a way to train officers for being OOD......more bad things are going to happen.

https://www.usni.org/magazines/proceedi ... 5eeaaa45ac
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Re: The US Navy can't stop hitting things

Post by Brian »

Sounds like they got hit right in the Combat Systems berth. Which is where I lived on board my ship when I was in the Navy.

My berth was home to ET's (Electronics Technician), IC's (Interior Communications), and DS's (Data Systems Technicians). The DS rate (which I was) was retired shortly after I left the Navy and DS's were split into a couple of other rates including the Information Systems rate noted among the missing listed above.
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Re: The US Navy can't stop hitting things

Post by Isgrimnur »

Which would ensure that you lose significant chunks of a department when a particular berth takes a hit. One would assume it's not an issue if you're on alert in an active combat zone, but still, that seems like a bad design. Can they not extrapolate from the Sullivan brothers?
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Re: The US Navy can't stop hitting things

Post by Rip »

Jaddison wrote:Here is part 1 of what promises to be a serious takedown of today's surface fleet training approach and does answer a lot of questions.
My react is - Holy shit whoever thought that would work out? As a submariner this is just absurd as a way to train officers for being OOD......more bad things are going to happen.

https://www.usni.org/magazines/proceedi ... 5eeaaa45ac
Thank goodness submarine OODs aren't trained that way. That is a nightmare.

Sounds like being a CO is really just a game of russian roulette. No way you could maintain a proper level of readiness with that crappy plan. They could have at least built some snazzy virtual reality trainers or something. But even that doesn't prepare you for the murphy's law experiences of reality.

They really could use a lot of those older ships sitting around and rusting away to use as training vessels.
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Re: The US Navy can't stop hitting things

Post by Jaddison »

Isgrimnur wrote:Which would ensure that you lose significant chunks of a department when a particular berth takes a hit. One would assume it's not an issue if you're on alert in an active combat zone, but still, that seems like a bad design. Can they not extrapolate from the Sullivan brothers?
It may have changed- but I doubt it- the different departments/rates never mixed very well. If you berthed by department nominally everyone would look out for everyone else. Engineering department and ops on the oiler I was on way back when (1974) would have been an all out war in berthing a lot of the time.

There really is an assumption that anything bad would happen with the crew at or able to get to their General Quarters stations (for surface ships). It seems as though in both collisions the bridge didn't even sound the collision alarm or announce standby for impact/collision. Even 30 seconds of alert can save lives.
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Re: The US Navy can't stop hitting things

Post by DD* »

Interesting article about sleep deprivation in the Navy from Task & Purpose.

Also, the removal of the Admiral may not be as big a deal as some in the media are making it out to be - the guy was already set to retire, his replacement had already been named, etc. This really just moved up the timetable a couple months, from what I understand.

Oh, and the gCaptain forum is a really interesting read when things like this happen. gCaptain is a site for professional mariners and is pretty informative and interesting even if a bit hard to follow at times (lots of inside jargon).
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Re: The US Navy can't stop hitting things

Post by Jaddison »

Part 2 of the Collision at Sea article at USNI- point out how ships deployed out of Japan are given a pass on inspections and other things due to their optempo and how they often deploy with material issues that keep any other ships tied to the pier until they are fixed.

No steering casualty/loss of steering happened according to a NYT article quoting a Navy source on record- though they did say as of now they believe there was no steering casualty.

https://www.usni.org/magazines/proceedi ... onal-pause
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Re: The US Navy can't stop hitting things

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Stars and Stripes
The Navy relieved two more commanders in 7th Fleet on Monday amid fallout from two deadly collisions involving the destroyers USS Fitzgerald and USS John S. McCain.

Task Force 70 commander Rear Adm. Charles Williams and Destroyer Squadron 15 commander Capt. Jeffrey Bennett were both relieved of command by 7th Fleet commander Vice Adm. Phil Sawyer “due to a loss of confidence in their ability to command,” the Navy announced in a Monday statement.

As both the CTF 70 and Carrier Strike Group 5 commander, Williams had tactical control of 7th Fleet’s cruisers and destroyers, as well as Carrier Air Wing 5 and the aircraft carrier USS Ronald Reagan.

Williams assumed command of CTF 70 in July 2016 from Rear Adm. John Alexander, who has since been promoted to vice admiral and took command of the U.S. 3rd Fleet on Friday.

As DESRON 15 commander, Bennett oversaw all destroyers assigned to 7th Fleet. He assumed command of DESRON 15 last year in September.

Williams and Bennett were relieved following the removal of 7th Fleet commander Vice Adm. Joseph Aucoin last month, also due to loss of confidence.
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Re: The US Navy can't stop hitting things

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USNI
The Navy is creating a new Naval Surface Group Western Pacific to train and certify forward-deployed surface ships operating out of Japan and has begun additional readiness assessments and certifications, after four surface ship collisions and groundings in the region that killed 17 sailors this year.
...
[T]he Navy “commenced Readiness for Sea Assessments (RFSA) for all ships assigned to Japan, to inspect and assess watchstander proficiency and material readiness to ensure ships are able to safely navigate, communicate and operate. Immediate remediation will be conducted for ships found deficient, and they will not be assigned for operational tasking until they are certified to be ready.”
...
In addition, the PACFLT commander is standing up the Naval Surface Group Western Pacific “to consolidate authorities to oversee the training and certification of forward-deployed ships based in Japan.”

On the personnel readiness side, Commander of Naval Surface Forces Vice Adm. Tom Rowden recently mandated that ship crews move to a 24-hour circadian rhythm watchstanding rotation, to allow sailors to get regularly scheduled sleep that their bodies can adjust to, Richardson explained during the hearing. This schedule had been recommended previously and implemented on some ships, but now all surface ships will develop this type of schedule for at-sea operations. Richardson said the change has not yet been mandated for ships in port, but that in-port workload and watchstanding rotation is being studied now. Additionally, to combat the 100-plus hours a week sailors sometimes work – which contributes to lack of sleep – “we’re starting to respond to that by supplementing the crews,” he said.
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Re: The US Navy can't stop hitting things

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‘I now hate my ship’: Surveys reveal disastrous morale on cruiser Shiloh
“It’s only a matter of time before something horrible happens,” one shipmate warned.

“Our sailors do not trust the CO,” another noted.

It’s a “floating prison,” one said.

“I just pray we never have to shoot down a missile from North Korea,” a distraught sailor lamented, “because then our ineffectiveness will really show.”

These comments come from three command climate surveys taken on the cruiser Shiloh during Capt. Adam M. Aycock’s recently-completed 26-month command. The Japan-based ship is a vital cog in U.S. ballistic missile defense and the 7th Fleet’s West Pacific mission to deter North Korea and counter ascendant Chinese and Russian navies.

These comments are not unique. Each survey runs hundreds of pages, with crew members writing anonymously of dysfunction from the top, suicidal thoughts, exhaustion, despair and concern that the Shiloh was being pushed underway while vital repairs remained incomplete.

Frequently in focus is the commanding officer’s micromanagement and a neutered chiefs mess. Aycock was widely feared among sailors who said minor on-the-job mistakes often led to time in the brig, where they would be fed only bread and water.

The survey reports offer a window into life in the Navy’s 7th Fleet, a Pacific command where leadership has admitted sailors are overworked and often insufficiently trained due to relentless mission pace.

“It feels like a race to see which will break down first,” one sailor wrote, “the ship or it’s [sic] crew.”

While government watchdogs have warned of such issues for years, the Navy’s problems have come back in to the spotlight in the wake of this summer’s at-sea collisions involving the destroyers Fitzgerald and John S. McCain, disasters that killed 17 sailors. The Shiloh belongs to the same chain of command as those two ships, where several top admirals were recently fired.

Despite the Shiloh’s sailor comments suggesting a ship in crisis, and at a time when the Navy stresses CO accountability, Aycock was not fired.

Navy officials declined to discuss survey details, but acknowledged that Aycock’s superiors at Task Force 70 were aware of problems after the first negative survey taken two months into his command.

Aycock’s bosses were tracking the dysfunction and counseling the captain, officials said, yet Aycock remained on the job and rotated out in a standard change-of-command ceremony on Aug. 30.
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Re: The US Navy can't stop hitting things

Post by Isgrimnur »

Image
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Re: The US Navy can't stop hitting things

Post by MonkeyFinger »

An issue in the British navy for a different kind of hitting things problem.
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Re: The US Navy can't stop hitting things

Post by AWS260 »

The Navy's reports on the FItzgerald and McCain collisions have been published.
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Re: The US Navy can't stop hitting things

Post by GreenGoo »

I'm looking forward to the christening of the USS Drumpf. That should set things right.
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Re: The US Navy can't stop hitting things

Post by Max Peck »

GreenGoo wrote: Wed Nov 01, 2017 12:34 pm I'm looking forward to the christening of the USS Drumpf. That should set things right.
It'll be a leaky garbage scow, built in Kaliningrad, with defective fire suppression systems.
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Re: The US Navy can't stop hitting things

Post by Freyland »

Max Peck wrote: Wed Nov 01, 2017 1:35 pm
GreenGoo wrote: Wed Nov 01, 2017 12:34 pm I'm looking forward to the christening of the USS Drumpf. That should set things right.
It'll be a leaky garbage scow, built in Kaliningrad, with defective fire suppression systems.
And an actual Crow's nest.
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Re: The US Navy can't stop hitting things

Post by Jaddison »

AWS260 wrote: Wed Nov 01, 2017 11:23 am The Navy's reports on the FItzgerald and McCain collisions have been published.
As expected, highly avoidable if they had just done what bridge crews/watchstanders have been trained to do since ships have been going to sea. It is also telling that no one on the bridge understood loss of steering and how the system worked.
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Re: The US Navy can't stop hitting things

Post by Freyland »

Freyland wrote: Wed Nov 01, 2017 4:01 pm
Max Peck wrote: Wed Nov 01, 2017 1:35 pm
GreenGoo wrote: Wed Nov 01, 2017 12:34 pm I'm looking forward to the christening of the USS Drumpf. That should set things right.
It'll be a leaky garbage scow, built in Kaliningrad, with defective fire suppression systems.
And an actual Crow's nest.
Oh, and a small deck, because they won't need much room when they call, "All Hands...."
Sims 3 and signature unclear.
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