Harvey Weinstein (and assorted horrible people)... RIP career.

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GreenGoo
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Re: Harvey Weinstein... RIP career.

Post by GreenGoo »

Blackhawk wrote:
Like you said, you deleted the post, so I'm having to go entirely on memory. If I've misrepresented you, I apologize. I do think that is how you came off, though, and may be why people were reacting so strongly.

Again, though, it has nothing to do with getting your naughty bits grabbed, and everything to do with someone with significant power over your career showing you that you're theirs to use, putting you, instantly, into a position of choosing to go along with something abhorrent or having your dreams and your future end on the spot. It wouldn't just be shocking, it would be a terrifying situation with no choice that wouldn't be devastating to your life. That is what the trauma comes from.
First, I think you nailed peoples' interpretation of what I said, so I don't think you're the only one who read it that way. With that said though, my explanations were for naught even before I deleted my posts (which might be only the second time I've done it in the over a decade of time I've spent here. I've deleted other posts that I've thought better of, but not after a discussion had formed around them. Typically I would use the strikeout font. Obviously I regret deleting them in this instance). When the juggernaut is rolling, I should know better and get out of the way, but it pissed me off to be accused of something that I've been the exact opposite of my entire life.

In retrospect I fully admit my original phrasing was poorly worded. That doesn't account for continuing to be accused of a position I don't hold after my explanations, which have either been disregarded, or found to be insufficient to clarify. Whatever.

The only relevant parts were quoted, as far as I remember. Anything else, which everyone has not bothered to remember, were words like "abhorrent", "punished", "not ok". And just in case there is confusion, I'll restate, I found Affleck's behaviour to be criminal, that he should suffer the full extent of the law, if only the victim would make a complaint, and that I found it just as abhorrent as Johansson getting her boob jiggled on the red carpet, which I found completely disgusting behaviour by the interviewer, but who escaped any sort of consequences that I'm aware of, presumably because Johansson never filed a complaint.

I also defended Affleck's right to be innocent until proven guilty (even if only in public opinion) early on, but with new accusations his guilt seems to be more likely. That might also have influenced peoples' willingness to interpret my words a certain way.

Listen, this is a no win situation for me. Continuing to defend myself has not worked, and people are only hardening their poor opinion of me. It doesn't matter what I say now, but I'm stubborn and feel I'm being unfairly maligned. Plenty of people feel it's completely justified and fair. Further words aren't going to change that.

People are welcome to believe what they want to believe. Hopefully I'll never have to face them in a jury.

So why don't we go back to discussing what a horrible monster Weinstein is, how other potential assaulters/harrassers are coming to light, and how many more women are going to speak out?
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Re: Harvey Weinstein... RIP career.

Post by Kurth »

GreenGoo wrote:Let me ask you this. Go watch the video. Come back here and tell me, just guess obviously, what percentage of women would need therapy after that event. I'm curious how our opinions of women's mental toughness differs.
Not piling on here, just offering my take that the problem is that you appear to be suggesting that women who need therapy after an event involving a sexual assault have less "mental toughness" than those that do not. Problems with this include: (1) not all sexual assaults are the same; (2) not all women are the same; and (3) seeking therapy shouldn't ever be seen as an indicator of a lack of mental toughness.

I'm pretty sure these are not the positions you hold, but that is the way it's coming off.
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Re: Harvey Weinstein... RIP career.

Post by GreenGoo »

Lorini wrote:
I'm done with this discussion. Men telling people how women should react is so old it's not even worth bothering with anymore.
Yawn.

At no point have I stated how anyone SHOULD react. I'm an ally but you refuse to see it. I don't know what your problem is, but it isn't me.

Good luck.
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Re: Harvey Weinstein... RIP career.

Post by KKBlue »

GreenGoo wrote:In retrospect I fully admit my original phrasing was poorly worded. That doesn't account for continuing to be accused of a position I don't hold after my explanations, which have either been disregarded, or found to be insufficient to clarify. Whatever.
Goo, please know I went back and reread your first 3 comments.
My very first posts (years ago) on the board, I was misunderstood. I learned to reread and edit before hitting submit after that. I understand the challenges with typing out a thought vs speaking out loud. I often don't comment because it takes me so long making sure my sentences read the way I really want them to come across.
I am sorry you are upset. We all need to take a breath, myself included. The whole world is uptight and ready for a fight, so much turmoil.
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Re: Harvey Weinstein... RIP career.

Post by GreenGoo »

Kurth wrote:
GreenGoo wrote:Let me ask you this. Go watch the video. Come back here and tell me, just guess obviously, what percentage of women would need therapy after that event. I'm curious how our opinions of women's mental toughness differs.
Not piling on here, just offering my take that the problem is that you appear to be suggesting that women who need therapy after an event involving a sexual assault have less "mental toughness" than those that do not. Problems with this include: (1) not all sexual assaults are the same; (2) not all women are the same; and (3) seeking therapy shouldn't ever be seen as an indicator of a lack of mental toughness.

I'm pretty sure these are not the positions you hold, but that is the way it's coming off.
First, we're not talking about all sexual assaults, we're talking about a specific one. One that we can watch in action if only people would go watch it. They watched Johansson get assaulted on the red carpet, this one is very similar. That seems to continue to be lost for some reason.

Nope, not all women are the same. Some women would need therapy after such an event. Some wouldn't. I'm suggesting that most wouldn't. I don't think that's an unfair generalization.

Kurth, let me ask you this. What would you consider to be a sign of emotional toughness? And I think some people think that when I say mental toughness they think the lack of which is a criticism. But we don't feel that way about physical strength, pain thresholds, or any number of other factors that allow some people to survive trauma and others to succumb.

Kurth, I think you've identified something that I was overlooking, so thanks for that.

Women who need therapy after having their boob squeezed by Ben Affleck are not inferior to women who wouldn't. There's not even an implied judgment of who is "better" or who is "worse". When a cancer patient gives up and waits to die, while another decides to fight, we don't all criticize the first patient for being defeated. it is what it is.

Being emotionally strong, or emotionally fragile is not something that we judge on those terms (of good versus bad). If I say that most men could life a certain weight, that doesn't mean all men can do it, or that men that can't do it are less than men who can.

Peoples' emotional strength exist outside of any trauma that occurs.

I have not bothered to discuss my own experiences in this area because a) I'm a man, no one gives a shit about men's emotional trauma and b) it will be seen as self serving. and c) I don't share that level of stuff with strangers on the internet.

So thanks Kurth, I think you might have nailed it where I was blind to it. It never occurred to me that talking about emotional strength and women's ability to withstand trauma was a sticking point.

I don't think there is going to be any common ground on that, so...yeah. Not much left to say.
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Re: Harvey Weinstein... RIP career.

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KKBlue wrote:I learned to reread and edit before hitting submit after that. I understand the challenges with typing out a thought vs speaking out loud. I often don't comment because it takes me so long making sure my sentences read the way I really want them to come across.
I would scream NEVER from the top of my lungs at this but a certain unnamed person in the political arena ruined unmitigated and uncensored typing from the hip for everybody.
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Re: Harvey Weinstein... RIP career.

Post by KKBlue »

GreenGoo wrote:I have not bothered to discuss my own experiences in this area because a) I'm a man, no one gives a shit about men's emotional trauma and b) it will be seen as self serving. and c) I don't share that level of stuff with strangers on the internet.
I am going to believe you wrote this out of frustration.

Took me 15 minutes of writing/deleting/editing for this one fuckin sentence.
Last edited by KKBlue on Thu Oct 12, 2017 11:54 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Harvey Weinstein... RIP career.

Post by GreenGoo »

KKBlue wrote:
GreenGoo wrote:In retrospect I fully admit my original phrasing was poorly worded. That doesn't account for continuing to be accused of a position I don't hold after my explanations, which have either been disregarded, or found to be insufficient to clarify. Whatever.
Goo, please know I went back and reread your first 3 comments.
My very first posts (years ago) on the board, I was misunderstood. I learned to reread and edit before hitting submit after that. I understand the challenges with typing out a thought vs speaking out loud. I often don't comment because it takes me so long making sure my sentences read the way I really want them to come across.
I am sorry you are upset. We all need to take a breath, myself included. The whole world is uptight and ready for a fight, so much turmoil.
I didn't used to be so abrasive on the internet but over time you realize you can't control what other people think and trying to do so is just an exercise in frustration. I'm defensive because I feel I've been unfairly judged. With Blackhawk's comments and Kurth's, I better understand how my words were interpreted. While that allows me to be somewhat mollified because I understand where the attacks are coming from, I'm really stubborn too, unfortunately. You're not alone in worrying how your words are read, and I will often re-write sentences after I've posted them, if I can "get away with it", meaning that the discussion doesn't hinge on the previously written words.

There is zero chance that I blame any woman for any assault or harassment, and I don't judge how any individual reacts in any specific circumstances. That's between her/him and their therapist. That I think some assaults are more traumatic than others should be self evident. I still fail to see the crime in generalizing in this particular circumstances, but clearly it's a problem. I'll try to stop doing it.
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Re: Harvey Weinstein... RIP career.

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:wub:

Took me 2 seconds to comment w no edits
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Re: Harvey Weinstein... RIP career.

Post by GreenGoo »

KKBlue wrote:
GreenGoo wrote:I have not bothered to discuss my own experiences in this area because a) I'm a man, no one gives a shit about men's emotional trauma and b) it will be seen as self serving. and c) I don't share that level of stuff with strangers on the internet.
I am going to believe you wrote this out of frustration.

Took me 15 minutes of writing/deleting/editing for this one fuckin sentence.
It was a passive aggressive way of bringing it up without bringing it up. It was lame. I apologize.
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Re: Harvey Weinstein... RIP career.

Post by Moliere »

Sounds like we can get back on topic of everyone saying how much they hate Trump.
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Re: Harvey Weinstein... RIP career.

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GreenGoo wrote:It hasn't been mentioned in this thread I don't think, but MacGowan has implicated Ben Casey Affleck too, and the rumours are that he is the worse of the two.

So it's possible we'll hear from more victims in the near future.
I am probably late with this but I believe Casey Affleck has already had some serious problems with this.
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Re: Harvey Weinstein... RIP career.

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Moliere wrote:Sounds like we can get back on topic of everyone saying how much they hate Trump.
And how decimated they are by this revelation.
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Re: Harvey Weinstein... RIP career.

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Moliere wrote:Sounds like we can get back on topic of everyone saying how much they hate Trump.
Trump sucks. So does Harvey Weinstein.
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Re: Harvey Weinstein... RIP career.

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Scuzz wrote:I am probably late with this but I believe Casey Affleck has already had some serious problems with this.
Yup
In 2010, two women who had worked on Affleck’s experimental film I’m Still Here filed sexual harassment suits against him. One of the women claimed that Affleck crawled into bed with her without her consent while she was asleep. He allegedly pressured the other woman to stay in his hotel room and “violently grabbed [her] arm in an effort to intimidate her into staying” when she refused, according to the complaint.

The women claimed he verbally disparaged them and directed a subordinate to expose himself to one of them, among other types of misconduct. They also said that Affleck and the film's star, Joaquin Phoenix, locked themselves in the women's shared hotel room with two other women, allegedly to have sex with them.

The claims were settled out of court.
Affleck was sued for $2 million by one woman and $2.25 million by the other. Both cases were settled out of court for an undisclosed amount in 2010.
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Re: Harvey Weinstein... RIP career.

Post by GreenGoo »

Scuzz wrote:
GreenGoo wrote:It hasn't been mentioned in this thread I don't think, but MacGowan has implicated Ben Casey Affleck too, and the rumours are that he is the worse of the two.

So it's possible we'll hear from more victims in the near future.
I am probably late with this but I believe Casey Affleck has already had some serious problems with this.
That's what I've been hearing too, but nothing concrete yet.

edit: except for Moliere's example, it would seem.
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Re: Harvey Weinstein... RIP career.

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Jimmy Kimmel wrote:“What’s the difference between Harvey Weinstein and the Pillsbury Doughboy?” he asked. “When the Pillsbury Doughboy offers you a roll, he doesn’t ask you to watch him take a shower for it.”
Learn from John Oliver on how to turn the Weinstein story in an anti-Trump story.
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Re: Harvey Weinstein... RIP career.

Post by Moliere »

Ed Asner being interviewed about Weinstein keeps asking the host for a kiss.
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Re: Harvey Weinstein... RIP career.

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Moliere wrote:Ed Asner being interviewed about Weinstein keeps asking the host for a kiss.
Watched it. Took it as more "tongue in cheek".

Perhaps a better phrase is needed here....
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Reminded me of this: Joe Namath wanting to kiss the interviewer.
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Re: Harvey Weinstein... RIP career.

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Re: Harvey Weinstein... RIP career.

Post by LawBeefaroni »

I don't really follow Hollywood so I don't "know" MacGowan but goddamn right. Blow that shit up.
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Re: Harvey Weinstein... RIP career.

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Moliere wrote:
Freyland wrote:@ Ralph-Wiggum and Moliere: Thanks. A bit too circumstantial for me to find condemning but I can certainly see people fitting that to the present narrative.
How Brad Pitt Threatened Harvey Weinstein After He Allegedly Harassed Gwyneth Paltrow
Paltrow is one of dozens of women coming forward to accuse Weinstein of sexual misconduct, telling the New York Times that the movie mogul made unwanted advances towards her in a hotel room when she was 22. The encounter, which she says occurred after Weinstein hired her for the lead role in Emma, allegedly ended with him placing his hands on her and suggesting a massage.

Pitt, who was dating Paltrow at the time, confronted Weinstein about the incident at a Hollywood party around 1995, a source tells PEOPLE.

“Brad threatened Harvey,” says the source. “He got right in his face, poked him in the chest and said, ‘You will not ever do this to Gwyneth ever again.’ “

The source adds that Pitt “made it clear there would be consequences” if Weinstein tried anything again, and “described it as giving Harvey a ‘Missouri whooping.'” (Pitt grew up in Springfield, Missouri.)
Did Brad Pitt's career end after doing that?
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Re: Harvey Weinstein... RIP career.

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Victoria Raverna wrote:Did Brad Pitt's career end after doing that?
Who?
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Re: Harvey Weinstein... RIP career.

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Amazon Studios Chief Suspended After Sexual Harassment Claim
Roy Price, the executive in charge of Amazon’s growing investment in movies and television shows, was suspended by the company on Thursday after a Hollywood producer publicly accused him of making unwanted sexual advances toward her.

Mr. Price, the head of Amazon Studios, was accused of lewdly propositioning Isa Dick Hackett, a producer of one of its most popular shows, in an interview with The Hollywood Reporter published earlier in the day.

In the interview, Ms. Hackett, an executive producer of the Amazon series “The Man in the High Castle,” said that Mr. Price had repeatedly made unwanted sexual advances toward her two years ago after a dinner at Comic-Con in San Diego.
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Re: Harvey Weinstein... RIP career.

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There is no way I am propositioning a woman whose name includes "Dick Hackett".
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Re: Harvey Weinstein... RIP career.

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Freyland wrote:There is no way I am propositioning a woman whose name includes "Dick Hackett".
How about her hot cousin, Inga Penis Cleaver?
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Re: Harvey Weinstein... RIP career.

Post by Freyland »

Freyland wrote:There is no way I am propositioning a woman whose name includes "Dick Hackett".
I will take this a step farther. If she was at all involved in the character creation of Jar-Jar Binks, I would assume her full name is actually a statement of intent.
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Re: Harvey Weinstein... RIP career.

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Seth Meyers Harvey Weinstein, Donald Trump and Systemic Sexism

tl;dw
First 5 minutes: anti-Trump rant
Next 3 minutes: mentioning Harvey Weinstein allegations
Final 2 minutes: anti-Trump rant
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Re: Harvey Weinstein... RIP career.

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Emma Thompson: Harvey Weinstein 'top of harassment ladder' - BBC Newsnight
From the British perspective. Harvey is just the "tip of the iceberg".
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Re: Harvey Weinstein... RIP career.

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30 Rock - Jenna Turned Down Harvey Weinstein

It's such an open secret that 30 Rock has a character turning down sex with Harvey 3 out of 5 times. Gotta love all these celebrities (ahem! Clooney, Ahem! Glenn Close) who only heard "vague rumors". :roll:
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Re: Harvey Weinstein... RIP career.

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So is Weird Al up next?
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Re: Harvey Weinstein... RIP career.

Post by Kurth »

Moliere wrote:
Read through some of McGowan's tweets this morning. She seems all kinds of messed up. I can't imagine the shit she's been through during her career, but someone needs to tell her to step away from the Twitter.
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Re: Harvey Weinstein... RIP career.

Post by Smoove_B »

I think the dam finally breaking has allowed her to speak what she's been holding to herself for decades.

I'm not astounded that he did any of this (or that it's so prevalent in the industry). I'm astounded he was able to get away with it for so long.
Maybe next year, maybe no go
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Re: Harvey Weinstein... RIP career.

Post by LordMortis »

Smoove_B wrote:I think the dam finally breaking has allowed her to speak what she's been holding to herself for decades.

I'm not astounded that he did any of this (or that it's so prevalent in the industry). I'm astounded he was able to get away with it for so long.
I don't know what to be astounded by anymore. My sheltered life growing up made it seem like rampant rape and murder and human trafficking and racist violence and mafia controls over people were all chapters of American history that were mainly kept in check by a civil society. Then the Internet comes along and shows me how small my version, my vision of the US really is.
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Re: Harvey Weinstein... RIP career.

Post by Moliere »

Corey Feldman defending himself against Barbara Walters when discussing Hollywood pedophilia.
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Re: Harvey Weinstein... RIP career.

Post by em2nought »

Rip wrote:So is Weird Al up next?
Nope, George Clooney it appears. https://pagesix.com/2017/10/13/er-actre ... uct-claim/

Maybe porn will finally get some good directors and talent if the liberal elite turn on their own. :mrgreen:
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Re: Harvey Weinstein... RIP career.

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I don't mean to take this political but I heard this today and it made me think of my wife (and others) in their dislike of Hillary Clinton. Many stories came out about Bill Clinton, before and after he was elected, and then the Monica Lewinsky thing. Now I am not saying he raped or abused her, but my wife and others believe that Hillary empowered Bill Clinton by not calling him on his "actions" before and after the Lewinsky episode. Bill was defended by people who called his accusers gold diggers and other names. They excused him for the Lewinsky affair.

Was Clinton like Weinstein? I doubt it, but was he enabled by the silence and attacks of others. No doubt. And it sounds like Weinstein was as well.
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Re: Harvey Weinstein... RIP career.

Post by Moliere »

Scuzz wrote:I don't mean to take this political but I heard this today and it made me think of my wife (and others) in their dislike of Hillary Clinton. Many stories came out about Bill Clinton, before and after he was elected, and then the Monica Lewinsky thing. Now I am not saying he raped or abused her, but my wife and others believe that Hillary empowered Bill Clinton by not calling him on his "actions" before and after the Lewinsky episode. Bill was defended by people who called his accusers gold diggers and other names. They excused him for the Lewinsky affair.

Was Clinton like Weinstein? I doubt it, but was he enabled by the silence and attacks of others. No doubt. And it sounds like Weinstein was as well.
Watch (if you can) Joy Behar leapfrog from Trump to Anita Hill and somehow forget Bill Clinton.
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Re: Harvey Weinstein... RIP career.

Post by GreenGoo »

Woman (don't remember her name) accuses James Woods of predatory behaviour when he tried to pick up her and her friend and take them to Vegas.

When she said she was 16, he allegedly said "even better" and continued to try to get them to go to Vegas with him.

Her friend corroborated.

He denies it.
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