Harvey Weinstein (and assorted horrible people)... RIP career.

[ImLawBoy]

I'll just point out here that if you're worried that your simple flirting will be taken as harassment, you're probably doing more than simple flirting.

[GreenGoo]

Lol.

If this means the Em's and matrices of the world are too scared to approach women, I'm all for it.

Not understanding what is reasonable versus unreasonable when approaching women is what got us here in the first place.

Hearing them whine is music to my ears.

[LordMortis]

Lol.

If this means the Em's and matrices of the world are too scared to approach women, I'm all for it.

Not understanding what is reasonable versus unreasonable when approaching women is what got us here in the first place.

Hearing them whine is music to my ears.

I've never understood it and been flat out told "Wow. You have no game at all, do you?" Being on the other end of the spectrum and have never wanted to be alpha, flirting only really ever comes with people I know well enough to make it meaningless.

[Holman]

Flirting is words, and the words are not about sex acts. Going beyond this is going beyond flirting.

Nothing has changed. It's always been this way. How is this suddenly difficult?

The only thing I’d point out here is that it’s not just about going beyond words. Especially in the workplace when there’s a pronounced power imbalance (e.g., boss/worker), the issue can be solely about words. See all the stuff about Harmon above.

Right. That's what I meant about the words not being about sex acts (which I suppose should extend to also not being about other intimate matters that aren't necessarily sex acts but etc etc).

[GreenGoo]

I've never understood it and been flat out told "Wow. You have no game at all, do you?" Being on the other end of the spectrum and have never wanted to be alpha, flirting only really ever comes with people I know well enough to make it meaningless.

Did she call the cops? If not, you're doing better than these chumps who are now afraid to approach women because they think they are going to be accused of harrasment because Louis C. K. Has admitted to jerking off in front of women.

[LordMortis]

I've never understood it and been flat out told "Wow. You have no game at all, do you?" Being on the other end of the spectrum and have never wanted to be alpha, flirting only really ever comes with people I know well enough to make it meaningless.

Did she call the cops? If not, you're doing better than these chumps who are now afraid to approach women because they think they are going to be accused of harrasment because Louis C. K. Has admitted to jerking off in front of women.

Nope. The exact opposite. I've been flat out told that I was supposed to be hitting on them as they get up and walk away in eye rolley fashion. Of course, I was 25 years younger, 80 pounds lighter, and a lot more interesting then...

[Scuzz]

Flirting is words, and the words are not about sex acts. Going beyond this is going beyond flirting.

Nothing has changed. It's always been this way. How is this suddenly difficult?

The only thing I’d point out here is that it’s not just about going beyond words. Especially in the workplace when there’s a pronounced power imbalance (e.g., boss/worker), the issue can be solely about words. See all the stuff about Harmon above.

Most of the cases that have come out have involved some sort of man in a position of power over the women who have complained. Either as direct employers, or as nominal bosses or as someone who could simply ruin their careers.

Nobody has been accused of improper flirting. Jacking off in front of a woman is not flirting.

[ImLawBoy]

How am I supposed to let a woman know I'm interested in her if I can't rub my crotch against her?

[Freyland]

How am I supposed to let a woman know I'm interested in her if I can't rub my crotch against her?

Bring a doll that looks vaguely like her and rub against that. Much less awkward, really.

[Rip]

How am I supposed to let a woman know I'm interested in her if I can't rub my crotch against her?

That is easy.

[Scuzz]

How am I supposed to let a woman know I'm interested in her if I can't rub my crotch against her?

Bring a doll that looks vaguely like her and rub against that. Much less awkward, really.

I bet you could get a life size doll made in her proportions and tape a picture of her face on it....that wouldn't be creepy.

[McNutt]

Jacking off in front of a woman is not flirting.

Since when??? Sometimes I miss the old days.

[em2nought]

I never flirted in my youth, but now I do because I can only be viewed as harmless. Members of the jury just have a look at him, of course he didn't expect to get anywhere. Would you if you were him? lol

I'm having second thoughts about the whole flirting thing, it would be fairly easy to stop as it was never a habit before. lol

[Moliere]

Another example of stretching the definition: Aziz Ansari?

In September of last year, I met a woman at a party. We exchanged numbers. We texted back and forth and eventually went on a date. We went out to dinner, and afterwards we ended up engaging in sexual activity, which by all indications was completely consensual.

The next day, I got a text from her saying that although “it may have seemed okay,” upon further reflection, she felt uncomfortable. It was true that everything did seem okay to me, so when I heard that it was not the case for her, I was surprised and concerned. I took her words to heart and responded privately after taking the time to process what she had said.

[ImLawBoy]

The woman's story belies the "by all indications was completely consensual" portion of the statement. It sounds like Ansari wouldn't take no for an answer (after having been told "no" many times), until she finally just shut down and gave in. It's fair to question whether there's legitimate consent there or not, but this isn't the case of a happily willing participant just having second thoughts the next day.

[McNutt]

The Ansari story is very conflicting. I have sympathy for the victim because she seemed over her head on that date, but I can understand a guy missing verbal cues when the most strenuous objection he heard was "maybe we should slow it down" after they had gone back to his apartment and he was getting a condom. He performed oral sex on him, she reciprocated (though not for long she claims) and then they had sex.

Does this really deserve to go public?

[McNutt]

The woman's story belies the "by all indications was completely consensual" portion of the statement. It sounds like Ansari wouldn't take no for an answer (after having been told "no" many times), until she finally just shut down and gave in.

I've read several articles on this and never read that she said "no." The only verbal objection I saw was when she told him that "she'd like to slow it down." It sounds like she did shut down and give in. The question is, is it reasonable for Ansari to not realize that's what she's doing? I haven't seen anything to make me think that's a stretch.

[ImLawBoy]

I read the original piece on the babe site (blocked from work for some reason, so I'm not linking to it here, but it's easy to find), and according to it, she made many verbal and non-verbal indications that she didn't want to proceed. Reading the piece in its entirety, it's hard to think that a reasonable person could have interpreted her as being into it. (This, of course, assumes that her retelling of the night is accurate.) She may not have said a firm "No" like I thought, but she told him she didn't want to have sex that night (saying, "Next time", which he interpreted as a second date) and she also told him she didn't want to feel forced into anything.

[LawBeefaroni]

He performed oral sex on him...

Not having read up on this, going to assume there's a missing "S" to start that sentence.

Otherwise.. confused.

[hepcat]

This one's tough for me to wrap my head around because I'm not sure if my instinctive response of "I don't think this one is an example worth holding up in these cases" is the right one, or the wrong one based on the male bias I've learned from a lifetime of bad jokes, locker room stories, and peer pressure.

In cases of violence and/or sexual blackmail (Weinstein using his position to get these women to acquiesce to his sexual demands) it's clear. It's wrong. But in cases like Ansari's, it falls into an area that I may be blind to because of the aforementioned lifetime of conditioning.

No means no, but is maybe wrong too? I know that sounds flippant, but that is most certainly not my intent.

[McNutt]

He performed oral sex on him...

Not having read up on this, going to assume there's a missing "S" to start that sentence.

Otherwise.. confused.

Yes, my mistake. He performed oral sex on her and then she performed oral sex on him.

[Reemul]

This was posted by someone on QT3 and sums up how I feel about this issue really.

Reading that Aziz Ansari account…it really doesn’t seem to fit within the confines of #metoo at all. I mean, if it all went down as described, Aziz certainly acted like an entitled douchebag, the very type of guy he publically mocks in his comedy, so he should be held accountable for not respecting this woman. But on the flip side, she wasn’t working for him, is not in the industry, had no expectations of a working relationship with him of any kind, and was clearly on an actual “date” date, just a man and a woman hoping to build on a flirty connection they made the first time they met.

According to her own story, he never physically threatened her, did not block the exit, was not verbally abusive towards her…his only crime here seems to be that he was viewing the date more like a Tinder hookup and she was looking at it more as a classic first date. That’s a communication problem, and her attempts to communicate to him that she wasn’t going to do the hookup thing seem to have not been getting through. While his failure to acknowledge those communication attempts make him look like a douchebag, her then allowing him to do things to her while also giving in to at least some of his requests send some serious mixed signals. It seems like a much stronger “No!” coupled with “This is not working for me, have a nice life” and walking out the door would have served this woman a lot better than continuing to hope that Ansari would stop trying to initiate sex after her signals were clearly not being received.

#metoo and TimesUp are about protecting women from sexual harassment, exploitation and assault in the workplace and bringing to light the fact that for far too long far too many men have not respected women as equals from Hollywood to Washington to Silicon Valley to Wall Street and in work environments all over the country. The movement is NOT about regretting your actions on a date with a guy who just happened to be semi-famous at the time, even if he was acting like a douchebag. This cheapens the movement and lessens its effect while providing an avenue of attack for people who would like nothing better than to dismiss #metoo and TimesUp as “liberal feminist agenda”.

tl:dr - Aziz acted like a tool, but this doesn’t qualify as #metoo material

[Paingod]

It doesn't sound like this is anything worth printing, overall, though. It sounds more like something they both end up ashamed of, but doesn't result in criminal charges or career destruction. She should have been firmer, he should have backed off.

Our biology compels us to do stupid things. I don't know what it's like from the woman's side, but I understand that feeling of primal urgency that goes along with 'Boner Blackout' and anything short of "No" means "Maybe" to your penis, which has hijacked your brain for a while, and that's a thread that keeps the boner alive. It can be a hard thing to fight back against in a rational way.

I'm sure this biological urge and accompanying stupidity is different for each man.

[Smoove_B]

I agree - the whole situation has absolutely caused me to think about everything in a new light, in particular after reading articles and comments from various women that have been in questionable situations. My initial reaction to seeing a story like Ansari's is why didn't she just leave? It doesn't appear as though he was restraining her or blocking her from doing so, she first demurred and then her objections continued and elevated until she just gave in. I now must consider that she might have felt threatened - that if she didn't just "give in" maybe he would have physically forced himself on her? In reading around, apparently this isn't uncommon - many have voiced that they've done exactly that. Engaging in sexual encounters is preferable to being beaten and then being forced into a sexual encounter. It blows my mind to even think of things that way, but I can't deny it's possible. As Hepcat has said, it's extremely difficult for me to imagine a reversed situation - where someone that is twice my size is pressuring me to have a sexual encounter. I've never been alone with a woman and felt on edge or threatened; it's not a mindset I can empathize with in any capacity. I've also never badgered anyone into a sexual situation, so the whole thing is alien to me.

Regardless, the fact that more people are talking about it and I'm hearing and reading accounts of situations is definitely eye-opening. I don't exactly know what the answers are but I'd hope that all of this leads to a solution, not just naming and shaming.

[Paingod]

So, what you're saying, I think, is that every man should try and envision how they'd feel if they had a 410lb, 7-foot tall Bigfoot-like creature looming over them, it's hot breath steaming down their necks, and it was urgently insisting that this was a good thing to do as its hand wandered down the back of their pants.

They should capture that thought and bring it out anytime they think about having sex with someone they're out on a date with.

We don't often stop and think about how we look to women. We just are what we are to ourselves. I've never once in my life felt like I had to give in to someone just because they were bigger than me. As such, I've never stopped and thought that anyone might feel that way about me. I feel badly for any woman who ends up experiencing that.

[Moliere]

Am I a bad feminist? by Margaret Atwood

It seems that I am a "Bad Feminist." I can add that to the other things I've been accused of since 1972, such as climbing to fame up a pyramid of decapitated men's heads (a leftie journal), of being a dominatrix bent on the subjugation of men (a rightie one, complete with an illustration of me in leather boots and a whip) and of being an awful person who can annihilate – with her magic White Witch powers – anyone critical of her at Toronto dinner tables. I'm so scary! And now, it seems, I am conducting a War on Women, like the misogynistic, rape-enabling Bad Feminist that I am.

What would a Good Feminist look like, in the eyes of my accusers?

My fundamental position is that women are human beings, with the full range of saintly and demonic behaviours this entails, including criminal ones. They're not angels, incapable of wrongdoing. If they were, we wouldn't need a legal system.

Nor do I believe that women are children, incapable of agency or of making moral decisions. If they were, we're back to the 19th century, and women should not own property, have credit cards, have access to higher education, control their own reproduction or vote. There are powerful groups in North America pushing this agenda, but they are not usually considered feminists.

tl;dr
We need due process even in the avalanche of #MeToo accusations.

[McNutt]

What I'm learning from this is that I will need to have a talk with my daughter to stress the importance of being very clear with a guy. If you don't want to do X, then say it and don't put yourself in a position where you might feel trapped (like going to his place when you don't feel ready for that).

[EvilHomer3k]

No means no, but is maybe wrong too? I know that sounds flippant, but that is most certainly not my intent.

Anything but yes is no. Mixed signals are no.

[hepcat]

I believe we're seeing the death of coy then. Which is fine, as long as everyone understands this on either side of the fence.

[Moliere]

We need apologies from anyone that ever covered the song "Baby It's Cold Outside"

Spoiler:

I really can't stay (Baby it's cold outside)
I gotta go away (Baby it's cold outside)
This evening has been (Been hoping that you'd dropped in)
So very nice (I'll hold your hands they're just like ice)
My mother will start to worry (Beautiful what's your hurry?)
My father will be pacing the floor (Listen to the fireplace roar)
So really I'd better scurry (Beautiful please don't hurry)
Well maybe just a half a drink more (I'll put some records on while I pour)
The neighbors might think (Baby it's bad out there)
Say what's in this drink? (No cabs to be had out there)
I wish I knew how (Your eyes are like starlight now)
To break this spell (I'll take your hat, your hair looks swell) (Why thank you)
I ought to say no, no, no sir (Mind if move in closer?)
At least I'm gonna say that I tried (What's the sense of hurtin' my pride?)
I really can't stay (Baby don't hold out)
Baby it's cold outside
Ah, you're very pushy you know?
I like to think of it as opportunistic
I simply must go (Baby it's cold outside)
The answer is no (But baby it's cold outside)
The welcome has been (How lucky that you dropped in)
So nice and warm (Look out the window at that storm)
My sister will be suspicious (Gosh your lips look delicious!)
My brother will be there at the door (Waves upon a tropical shore)
My maiden aunt's mind is vicious (Gosh your lips are delicious!)
Well maybe just a cigarette more (Never such a blizzard before) (And I don't even smoke)
I've got to get home (Baby you'll freeze out there)
Say lend me a coat? (It's up to your knees out there!)
You've really been grand, (I feel when I touch your hand)
But don't you see? (How can you do this thing to me?)
There's bound to be talk tomorrow (Think of my life long sorrow!)
At least there will be plenty implied (If you caught pneumonia and died!)
I really can't stay (Get over that old out)
Baby it's cold
Baby it's cold outside
Okay fine, just another drink then
That took a lot of convincing!

"Say what's in this drink?" said the 54 women to Cosby.

[Z-Corn]

We need apologies from anyone that ever covered the song "Baby It's Cold Outside"

Spoiler:

I really can't stay (Baby it's cold outside)
I gotta go away (Baby it's cold outside)
This evening has been (Been hoping that you'd dropped in)
So very nice (I'll hold your hands they're just like ice)
My mother will start to worry (Beautiful what's your hurry?)
My father will be pacing the floor (Listen to the fireplace roar)
So really I'd better scurry (Beautiful please don't hurry)
Well maybe just a half a drink more (I'll put some records on while I pour)
The neighbors might think (Baby it's bad out there)
Say what's in this drink? (No cabs to be had out there)
I wish I knew how (Your eyes are like starlight now)
To break this spell (I'll take your hat, your hair looks swell) (Why thank you)
I ought to say no, no, no sir (Mind if move in closer?)
At least I'm gonna say that I tried (What's the sense of hurtin' my pride?)
I really can't stay (Baby don't hold out)
Baby it's cold outside
Ah, you're very pushy you know?
I like to think of it as opportunistic
I simply must go (Baby it's cold outside)
The answer is no (But baby it's cold outside)
The welcome has been (How lucky that you dropped in)
So nice and warm (Look out the window at that storm)
My sister will be suspicious (Gosh your lips look delicious!)
My brother will be there at the door (Waves upon a tropical shore)
My maiden aunt's mind is vicious (Gosh your lips are delicious!)
Well maybe just a cigarette more (Never such a blizzard before) (And I don't even smoke)
I've got to get home (Baby you'll freeze out there)
Say lend me a coat? (It's up to your knees out there!)
You've really been grand, (I feel when I touch your hand)
But don't you see? (How can you do this thing to me?)
There's bound to be talk tomorrow (Think of my life long sorrow!)
At least there will be plenty implied (If you caught pneumonia and died!)
I really can't stay (Get over that old out)
Baby it's cold
Baby it's cold outside
Okay fine, just another drink then
That took a lot of convincing!

"Say what's in this drink?" said the 54 women to Cosby.

I've always thought this song was kind of rapey but I REALLY noticed it this year. Made me uncomfortable to listen to it around a bunch of women bank tellers.

[Smoove_B]

Yeah, I remember seeing something on Snopes about it, right before the holidays.

Yet there was a time when “Baby, It’s Cold Outside” was no more controversial than “Here Comes Santa Claus” or “Rudolph the Red-Nosed Reindeer.” The song itself hasn’t changed in the 73 years of its existence, so what happened? The short answer is: we changed.

It's like Revenge of the Nerds. Go back and watch the scene between Skolnick and Betty in the Moon Room. One of the heroes of the movie "wins" by tricking a girl into having sex with him and liking it.

[LordMortis]

I agree - the whole situation has absolutely caused me to think about everything in a new light, in particular after reading articles and comments from various women that have been in questionable situations.

I had my come to Jesus moment in 1991 I think it was. When I was informed by feminist girlfriend how terrified women are men and then again a few months later I found out how many people were abused percentagewise and then found out, even though no one gave indication of it, anecdotally people in my life matched the statistic. It still is mindbending twentysome years later.

I still firmly believe the first line of defense is protect yourself and not to put yourself in a situation where bad things are going to happen. I suppose that's my "Nothing good happens after two AM" upbringing. But no matter how much I believe this, there is still an overwhelming amount of shitty people in the world and they shouldn't be absolved of their inability to violate other human beings.

Objectifying women starts at a crazy early age. Treat your daughters like full fledged people not proper porcelain dolls. Make sure the people around them do the same, so they learn to be a full person and not somebody else' object.

[GreenGoo]

Yeah, I remember seeing something on Snopes about it, right before the holidays.

Yet there was a time when “Baby, It’s Cold Outside” was no more controversial than “Here Comes Santa Claus” or “Rudolph the Red-Nosed Reindeer.” The song itself hasn’t changed in the 73 years of its existence, so what happened? The short answer is: we changed.

It's like Revenge of the Nerds. Go back and watch the scene between Skolnick and Betty in the Moon Room. One of the heroes of the movie "wins" by tricking a girl into having sex with him and liking it.

Yeah, it's pretty awful. Some comedian pointed out that most comedies from the 80's involved rape of some kind, which is basically true.

That scene from Revenge of the Nerds was my favourite. Oddly, I'm feeling somewhat defiant about it.

[tjg_marantz]

She's conflating regret with assault.

This one, I believe, will be pushed aside from all the other valid complaints and accusations.

[ImLawBoy]

She's conflating regret with assault.

This one, I believe, will be pushed aside from all the other valid complaints and accusations.

Did you read her account of it? I don't think it's quite as simple as you're making it out to be. I'm not sure I'm ready to call it assault, but it's more than regret.

[tjg_marantz]

She's conflating regret with assault.

This one, I believe, will be pushed aside from all the other valid complaints and accusations.

Did you read her account of it? I don't think it's quite as simple as you're making it out to be. I'm not sure I'm ready to call it assault, but it's more than regret.

I did, yes.

[Isgrimnur]

We need apologies from anyone that ever covered the song "Baby It's Cold Outside"

Spoiler:

I really can't stay (Baby it's cold outside)
I gotta go away (Baby it's cold outside)
This evening has been (Been hoping that you'd dropped in)
So very nice (I'll hold your hands they're just like ice)
My mother will start to worry (Beautiful what's your hurry?)
My father will be pacing the floor (Listen to the fireplace roar)
So really I'd better scurry (Beautiful please don't hurry)
Well maybe just a half a drink more (I'll put some records on while I pour)
The neighbors might think (Baby it's bad out there)
Say what's in this drink? (No cabs to be had out there)
I wish I knew how (Your eyes are like starlight now)
To break this spell (I'll take your hat, your hair looks swell) (Why thank you)
I ought to say no, no, no sir (Mind if move in closer?)
At least I'm gonna say that I tried (What's the sense of hurtin' my pride?)
I really can't stay (Baby don't hold out)
Baby it's cold outside
Ah, you're very pushy you know?
I like to think of it as opportunistic
I simply must go (Baby it's cold outside)
The answer is no (But baby it's cold outside)
The welcome has been (How lucky that you dropped in)
So nice and warm (Look out the window at that storm)
My sister will be suspicious (Gosh your lips look delicious!)
My brother will be there at the door (Waves upon a tropical shore)
My maiden aunt's mind is vicious (Gosh your lips are delicious!)
Well maybe just a cigarette more (Never such a blizzard before) (And I don't even smoke)
I've got to get home (Baby you'll freeze out there)
Say lend me a coat? (It's up to your knees out there!)
You've really been grand, (I feel when I touch your hand)
But don't you see? (How can you do this thing to me?)
There's bound to be talk tomorrow (Think of my life long sorrow!)
At least there will be plenty implied (If you caught pneumonia and died!)
I really can't stay (Get over that old out)
Baby it's cold
Baby it's cold outside
Okay fine, just another drink then
That took a lot of convincing!

"Say what's in this drink?" said the 54 women to Cosby.

I've always thought this song was kind of rapey but I REALLY noticed it this year. Made me uncomfortable to listen to it around a bunch of women bank tellers.

Historic context matters in this case. Not that it's going to matter in the larger discussion of it, but it's worth looking at.

[GreenGoo]

Historic context matters in this case. Not that it's going to matter in the larger discussion of it, but it's worth looking at.

While I personally wouldn't take it as far as your linked article does, that's exactly how I've always taken it too. There are still cultural barriers to women simply deciding that sex is something they want and it's ok to do it and there will be no repercussion, societally.

Reading the words, they are very rapey. Hearing them sung, it's clear the woman wants to stay but also wants to go (mostly because other people will think badly of her). Convincing a woman to stay the night is still something that happens on a regular basis. It's not, and has never been as easy (in general) as "do you want to stay and have sex?" "sure, that sounds lovely". Of course there are exceptions, and maybe a LOT of exceptions, it's still not the norm.

There is still a cultural bias for men to chase and women to "get caught". As Hep said, "playing coy" cannot still be a thing in 2017, yet it absolutely is. The difference, is whether a woman can make clear whether they are coy or adamant. And the man needs to be able to comprehend the difference between coy and outright refusal.

I don't think it's that tough to figure out, but I can see how it might give some people (maybe a lot of people?) difficulty.

I think a soft approach is best because it makes a man's position clear while allowing a woman to feel safe enough to tell the man no in no uncertain terms. But then I've never been into one night stands or aggressive pursuit, both of which make it more likely for miscommunication to occur. If you haven't spent the time to get to know someone, at least a little under the surface, then how can you be confident you understand what she is communicating?

Going forward, it's gonna be especially rough for the one night standers and hookup artists, but then I don't really care about them or what happens to them, so I'm ok with that. You don't need to have a deep relationship with someone to have sex with them, but I think you should at least have a relationship with them, even if it's a limited one to start.

[Zarathud]

My daughters immediately picked up on the creepy parts of "Baby It's Cold Outside" and my wife explained to them that at one time a young woman couldn't stay the night away from home without an excuse like bad weather.

Women have different pressures and fears than men. I have only felt in serious danger 2-3 times in my life walking down the street. My wife is extremely tough but has not had the same experience.