Active Shooter [Aurora, IL]

[LawBeefaroni]

I'm hoping we get some information about where the student got the guns because if it was from the parents and they were unsecured we need to have a serious talk about what to do about that.

For sure. Under the Playboy in the nightstand doesn't cut it anymore. Your gun, your responsibility.

[Skinypupy]

Little B 9.4 hasn't ever mentioned anything about school shootings, but I know I need to talk with her about it.

I'm torn between proactively raising the topic and running the risk of her panicking about bad guys coming into her school with guns, and making sure she's aware/prepared in case something happens.

How are you going to prepare her for something like that? The kids at Sandy Hook did what they practice in active shooter drills, and got massacred for it.

Honestly, I have no idea. Which is a big part of my hesitation to even bring it up.

[LawBeefaroni]

Little B 9.4 hasn't ever mentioned anything about school shootings, but I know I need to talk with her about it.

I'm torn between proactively raising the topic and running the risk of her panicking about bad guys coming into her school with guns, and making sure she's aware/prepared in case something happens.

How are you going to prepare her for something like that? The kids at Sandy Hook did what they practice in active shooter drills, and got massacred for it.

The drills have changed, largely because of what happened in Newtown. It's no longer stay in place, it's Run/hide/fight. It's not perfect, but it works better than sheer blind panic or huddling in place.

[em2nought]

I'm hoping we get some information about where the student got the guns because if it was from the parents and they were unsecured we need to have a serious talk about what to do about that.

For sure. Under the Playboy in the nightstand doesn't cut it anymore. Your gun, your responsibility.

Even though I don't have kids I've been looking for a good safe on craigslist. I could live with providing proof of firearm safe ownership being a prerequisite to purchasing a firearm. If I did have kids, I'd certainly have a ballistic panel stuffed into their backpacks by now. I think you can get them for $50.

[Skinypupy]

I'm hoping we get some information about where the student got the guns because if it was from the parents and they were unsecured we need to have a serious talk about what to do about that.

Holding parents liable when they don’t bother to keep their guns out of the hands of their kids seems like one of those “common sense” type of things.

Which, of course, means it’ll never happen.

[LordMortis]

Holding parents liable when they don’t bother to keep their guns out of the hands of their kids seems like one of those “common sense” type of things.

Which, of course, means it’ll never happen.

Wait. Is that not the case now?

[$iljanus]

Texas does have a liability law but it only applies to children under 17 using their parent's guns. The shooter in Santa Fe is 17.

[Skinypupy]

Holding parents liable when they don’t bother to keep their guns out of the hands of their kids seems like one of those “common sense” type of things.

Which, of course, means it’ll never happen.

Wait. Is that not the case now?

I assumed not since I’ve never heard it mentioned, but admit to not actually looking into it.

[$iljanus]

The Giffords Law Center to Prevent Gun Violence has a good breakdown of liability laws in the states that have them. Some are more stringent than others. Indiana didn’t seem to have one of the strongest of laws.

[Blackhawk]

Indiana didn’t seem to have one of the strongest of laws.

Gasp.

[Carpet_pissr]

I'm hoping we get some information about where the student got the guns because if it was from the parents and they were unsecured we need to have a serious talk about what to do about that.

For sure. Under the Playboy in the nightstand doesn't cut it anymore. Your gun, your responsibility.

Even though I don't have kids I've been looking for a good safe on craigslist. I could live with providing proof of firearm safe ownership being a prerequisite to purchasing a firearm. If I did have kids, I'd certainly have a ballistic panel stuffed into their backpacks by now. I think you can get them for $50.

Not sure if this is more widespread than here locally, but modern school kids’ backpacks are off the charts heavy. Like, my very strong and athletic 13 YO soccer player has some trouble with hers due to bulk and weight. My skinny 10 YO always fights hers. (At first I thought it might be just my kids, but no, it’s all the scurrying ants in the morning, staggering around trying to manage backpack weight.)

[LawBeefaroni]

I'm hoping we get some information about where the student got the guns because if it was from the parents and they were unsecured we need to have a serious talk about what to do about that.

For sure. Under the Playboy in the nightstand doesn't cut it anymore. Your gun, your responsibility.

Even though I don't have kids I've been looking for a good safe on craigslist. I could live with providing proof of firearm safe ownership being a prerequisite to purchasing a firearm. If I did have kids, I'd certainly have a ballistic panel stuffed into their backpacks by now. I think you can get them for $50.

Not sure if this is more widespread than here locally, but modern school kids’ backpacks are off the charts heavy. Like, my very strong and athletic 13 YO soccer player has some trouble with hers due to bulk and weight. My skinny 10 YO always fights hers. (At first I thought it might be just my kids, but no, it’s all the scurrying ants in the morning, staggering around trying to manage backpack weight.)

It's the same everywhere from what I've seen. Where is the digital classroom we were promised?


As for ballistic plates in backpacks, that's just silly. It only makes even a little bit of sense in gang infested areas or warzones. Where you're in danger of catching a stray on the commute. But it's also where such luxuries are probably not going to be a priority purchase.

Something that you take off and put away when you get to school isn't going to be much use if you're looking for protection in school.

Now if I were a kid protesting "gun violence", I'd be wearing a plate carrier in school every day. Seems like that would be a statement.

[em2nought]

Something that you take off and put away when you get to school isn't going to be much use if you're looking for protection in school.

I wasn't aware that backpacks have to be "put away". I seem to remember always carrying mine with me instead of having to use that locker in a remote hallway in which I had no classes, I was sort of an exception in that regard though. Later at university everyone carried their backpack everywhere they went as I remember it.

As for weight I wasn't thinking "plate" so much as soft armor. Of course maybe three or four textbooks in a backpack might serve the same purpose depending on the round used. https://www.concealedcarry.com/safety/w ... p-bullets/ Maybe they should do away with lockers, and make kids carry their backpacks at all times. Ballistic desks might be an idea too, probably cost the same as a regular desk. Kids could form up like roman legions in a turtle.

[Blackhawk]

I always carried mine, too, but that was decades ago. In my kids' school (also in Indiana) they're required to leave them in their lockers at all times. They carry what they need for their next class or two with them.

Of course, the fact that they have a school issued Chromebook instead of any textbooks makes that a lot more practical than it was for me. I just feel sorry for the nerds who have to carry all their D&D books by hand! Of course, my kids don't get a full lunch break the way I did, either. They get just long enough to shovel their food down their throats before having to get back to class.

[em2nought]

Ballistic desks might be an idea too

What do ya know http://www.sheltrusa.org/sheltr-usa_desk.html

[Unagi]

but if we make every single thing bulletproof, what's the point of guns!

[em2nought]

but if we make every single thing bulletproof, what's the point of guns!

Requests for increasing budgets and taxes from both sides of the aisle of course.

[Skinypupy]

So the proposed solutions to gun violence are:

a) More guns
b) Make everything bulletproof

It'd be funny if it wasn't so utterly absurd.

[Blackhawk]

Solutions? The solutions to gun violence, at this point, have nothing to do with guns.

[Punisher]

but if we make every single thing bulletproof, what's the point of guns!

We will leave the guns as not bulletproof.. happy now?

[Daehawk]

Father of 2 Parkland School survivors robbed and shot to death

The dude robbed him then came back and killed him.

[Moliere]

At Least 8 Dead in Mass Shooting at Pittsburgh Synagogue

Police have confirmed to local media outlets that at least eight people were killed in or around Tree of Life synagogue in the city's Squirrel Hill neighborhood. At least two others have serious and life-threatening injuries, according to NBC News, which also reports that three police officers were shot while responding to the incident. Police exchanged fire with the gunman as they arrived on the scene.

The suspect has been identified as 46-year-old Robert Bowers. He was arrested after surrendering to police. Over police scanners, officers reported that the suspect was shouting about wanting to kill Jewish people.

[gameoverman]

He shot up a religious place AND shot up police yet they took him alive? How does that happen? Cops have killed people for much less than that. Shooting him and letting him die might have helped. It was an opportunity to send a message to the recently emboldened whackos out there that their crimes won't be tolerated. Of course, to do that the authorities need to be against types of crimes...

[Holman]

He shot up a religious place AND shot up police yet they took him alive? How does that happen?

Dude, it's not like he was a black pre-teen with a toy gun in his own backyard. What are you thinking?

[Kurth]

He shot up a religious place AND shot up police yet they took him alive? How does that happen? Cops have killed people for much less than that. Shooting him and letting him die might have helped. It was an opportunity to send a message to the recently emboldened whackos out there that their crimes won't be tolerated. Of course, to do that the authorities need to be against types of crimes...

Really? You’re suggesting the authorities are in favor of hate inspired mass shootings at places of worship? Please tell me I misinterpreted that, and this was not your suggestion.

Also, cops aren’t supposed to be doing summary executions. This is supposed to be a country founded on laws with a basis in due process. We don’t kill people to send a message.

Your post is misguided.

[Pyperkub]

One thing I will say. As I recall Sessions directed the DoJ to de-emphasize the right wing hate group terror monitoring the Obama DoJ was doing (being charitable here I think, as I seem to remember him tearing it down completely).

[gameoverman]

He shot up a religious place AND shot up police yet they took him alive? How does that happen? Cops have killed people for much less than that. Shooting him and letting him die might have helped. It was an opportunity to send a message to the recently emboldened whackos out there that their crimes won't be tolerated. Of course, to do that the authorities need to be against types of crimes...

Really? You’re suggesting the authorities are in favor of hate inspired mass shootings at places of worship? Please tell me I misinterpreted that, and this was not your suggestion.

Also, cops aren’t supposed to be doing summary executions. This is supposed to be a country founded on laws with a basis in due process. We don’t kill people to send a message.

Your post is misguided.

I didn't say anything about executing him. This story, about the hunt for Christopher Dorner, is the kind of thing to which I'm referring. How is it that cops will unload on someone for what they 'think' is a threat, but this guy actually shot cops and he's still alive? This synagogue attack is one instance where shooting at the guy until they all run out of ammo would be justified. As to what I'm suggesting, I'm actually noting that cops seem to go berserk on certain kinds of people but for some reason take it easy on other people even when those other people do worse things.
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[Grifman]

It should not go unnoted that the shooter was active in far right media, applauding the description of immigrants as invaders and attacking Jewish organizations for aiding immigrants and refugees. #MAGA

[Blackhawk]

This synagogue attack is one instance where shooting at the guy until they all run out of ammo would be justified.

Why?

If he ran out of ammo and was just hiding, would it still be justified to fill the air with lead when there were possibly still survivors hiding near the line of fire? If he was wounded (as he apparently was in this case?) If he surrendered? Should they just keep shooting to teach him a lesson, and people down the street be damned when a bullet went through the drywall and into their living room? Or should they just keep shooting until he was dead as punishment? I'm not sure which of these you think would be 'justified.'

For once we have police using deadly force the way they're supposed to, and they still get criticized.

[msteelers]

Yeah, I think police should be applauded for capturing him alive. I hope they can look back on the tactics used and find something here to help them capture other shooters and attackers alive. They need to be held accountable in a court of law, not killed in the street.

However, I do find it shocking that he wasn't either killed by police or took his own life.

[Holman]

I do see gameoverman's point that there is a huge discrepancy between what gets you killed by police as a dark-skinned person and what gets you taken alive as white-skinned person.

Obviously the goal is for police to use as little violence as possible and to capture suspects rather than kill them. The problem isn't that this guy was apprehended but that so many black people are killed for nothing or next to nothing.

[Blackhawk]

I do see gameoverman's point that there is a huge discrepancy between what gets you killed by police as a dark-skinned person and what gets you taken alive as white-skinned person.

Obviously the goal is for police to use as little violence as possible and to capture suspects rather than kill them. The problem isn't that this guy was apprehended but that so many black people are killed for nothing or next to nothing.

I got that, but he didn't suggest that other situations were unjustified, he stated that using excessive force in this case would have been justified.

[Smoove_B]

It's nothing short of amazing they took him alive. Not only because of the entire scenario and how it unfolded, but because (as mentioned) these types of a-holes usually take their own lives in the end. If they killed him, no one would have thought twice. It's a testament to the training and skills of those involved that they were able to apprehend him at all.

[LordMortis]

Yeah, I think police should be applauded for capturing him alive. I hope they can look back on the tactics used and find something here to help them capture other shooters and attackers alive. They need to be held accountable in a court of law, not killed in the street.

However, I do find it shocking that he wasn't either killed by police or took his own life.

I dunno. I'm not going to knock them for capturing him alive, but I wouldn't have risked a single officer or civilian to do so. I don't know the details to know how I feel. The second he shot someone, my calculus is whatever it take to minimize risk to everyone but the shooter. The only regard I have the shooters safety is in relation to the greater safety of the people in harm's way. I do applaud the police for putting their lives on the line, no matter what happens to the piece of shit.

[Kurth]

I do see gameoverman's point that there is a huge discrepancy between what gets you killed by police as a dark-skinned person and what gets you taken alive as white-skinned person.

Correlation is not equal to causation.

[LawBeefaroni]

It's specific to this particular scenario, the responding officers (training, unit, weapons), and the timing. You can't expect another shooting to turn out the same, one way or the other.

The difference between this and a traffic stop, among hundreds of other things, is that they knew what they were dealing with. When a guy in a traffic stop pulls out a gun (or what a cop thinks is a gun) the cops don't get the benefit of tactical deployment and measured use of force.

[LawBeefaroni]

Btw, I mentioned it in another thread, but when I go to the range lateky, it's full of Orthodox Jews teaching their kids/grandkids to shoot. My FIL fought Nazis and he has been begging me to get him a handgun, after years of owning nothing but a varmit shotgun.

I was in a class with a guy who was on his Church's security team and he was tasked with arming and training the civilian members (they had like 3 cops on staff too). He said they always have at least 3 armed "ushers" at a given service. And honestly, if his skill was any indication, they probably have really safe services. Would not recommend trying to shoot up his church.

[naednek]

He shot up a religious place AND shot up police yet they took him alive? How does that happen?

Dude, it's not like he was a black pre-teen with a toy gun in his own backyard. What are you thinking?

<sigh>

[Grifman]

My church has two armed police officers at every service. We once had a woman who I believe was mentally disturbed sort of charge the stage before some church ushers tackled her and the police dragged her out, screaming, “Don’t let them execute me, they are going to kill me!”

[Smoove_B]

I can't even imagine being at a building of religious worship and having armed officers there. I was in NYC a few weeks ago and there were police officers standing around in full tactical gear (helmets, vests, boots, etc...) and opening displaying M4 Commandos (or whatever they were). There were groups of 4 or 5 just standing on street corners like it was normal. It was not normal.