Active Shooter [Aurora, IL]

[LawBeefaroni]

I can't even imagine being at a building of religious worship and having armed officers there. I was in NYC a few weeks ago and there were police officers standing around in full tactical gear (helmets, vests, boots, etc...) and opening displaying M4 Commandos (or whatever they were). There were groups of 4 or 5 just standing on street corners like it was normal. It was not normal.

It's not all that unusual in many large cities. Maybe in America but not around the world.

Heck, When I was in Paris in the 80/90s, the gendarmes were carrying MPs. I'm sure they still do today.

[Pyperkub]

Not around the western world. In a lot of non- western countries it is the norm.

[Madmarcus]

I've seen that in Paris, Zurich, Istanbul, and Athens. Maybe not as well decked out as you describe but with vests and SMG/rifles. It's still very strange to see it in a US city but it doesn't seem that unusual.

[Madmarcus]

I do see gameoverman's point that there is a huge discrepancy between what gets you killed by police as a dark-skinned person and what gets you taken alive as white-skinned person.

I understand his point but I think it is a problem to phrase it as he did. It is a good result for the police to take a shooter into custody (especially as the reports I've seen said he surrendered). This is a good thing no matter what the skin color or race of the shooter is.

Do we really want the police thinking that they NEED to start using excessive force on everyone just so that they won't be called a racist?

[GreenGoo]

I've seen that in Paris, Zurich, Istanbul, and Athens. Maybe not as well decked out as you describe but with vests and SMG/rifles. It's still very strange to see it in a US city but it doesn't seem that unusual.

I'm not gonna question this because quite frankly I have no idea.

That said, isn't it illegal for America's military to operate on American soil, barring special dispensation?

[Kraken]

I've seen that in Paris, Zurich, Istanbul, and Athens. Maybe not as well decked out as you describe but with vests and SMG/rifles. It's still very strange to see it in a US city but it doesn't seem that unusual.

I'm not gonna question this because quite frankly I have no idea.

That said, isn't it illegal for America's military to operate on American soil, barring special dispensation?

A lot of exceptions to the posse comitatus act are explained in the wikipedia.

Federal troops have a long history of domestic roles, including occupying secessionist Southern states during Reconstruction and putting down major urban riots. The Posse Comitatus Act prohibits the use of active duty personnel to "execute the laws"; however, there is disagreement over whether this language may apply to troops used in an advisory, support, disaster response, or other homeland defense role, as opposed to domestic law enforcement.

[GreenGoo]

Lol.

Putting down riots is pretty much the definition of operating on American soil, against Americans.

Enjoy your guns in the face of tyranny, militia cosplayers.

[Madmarcus]

That said, isn't it illegal for America's military to operate on American soil, barring special dispensation?

There is no legal issue with police in full military style gear with military weaponry (at least that I know of).

[Kurth]

Yep. This synagogue shooting in Pittsburgh leads to the ineluctable conclusion that we need police in full military gear at places of worship. That will make us safe. That will make us stop being afraid. Right???

[AWS260]

I can't even imagine being at a building of religious worship and having armed officers there. I was in NYC a few weeks ago and there were police officers standing around in full tactical gear (helmets, vests, boots, etc...) and opening displaying M4 Commandos (or whatever they were). There were groups of 4 or 5 just standing on street corners like it was normal. It was not normal.

This has been normal in NYC since 9/11. It was kind of disturbing at first, but by now it's just part of the landscape.

And to be clear, it's not like this throughout the city. In my neighborhood, the cops are regular cops, and not particularly visible. The heavy metal is mainly in high traffic/tourist areas.

[Holman]

I saw it pointed out elsewhere that if you need armed guards at your place of worship, you don't really have freedom of religion.

[Isgrimnur]

Something something god out of schools.

[Unagi]

I saw it pointed out elsewhere that if you need armed guards at your place of worship, you don't really have freedom of religion.

nor an omnipotent omnipresent benevolent god watching over you.

[Smoove_B]

And to be clear, it's not like this throughout the city. In my neighborhood, the cops are regular cops, and not particularly visible. The heavy metal is mainly in high traffic/tourist areas.

I figured it was a function of where we were, but it was still a bit unnerving. Now I just get to mark off "Police displaying automatic weapons" for my tourist bingo card when I visit once or twice a year.

[LordMortis]

I don't even know where to put this stuff but shit's gotta screamed from the rooftops.

I hate to link to CNN but that way you know it's not just made up, as much as you can trust CNN anyway....

https://www.cnn.com/2018/10/26/us/kentu ... index.html

So with that being a cite, you can then put more trust in this

https://www.comicsands.com/supermarket- ... 22276.html

We're flat out losing. Losing everything.

[LawBeefaroni]

I don't even know where to put this stuff but shit's gotta screamed from the rooftops.

I hate to link to CNN but that way you know it's not just made up, as much as you can trust CNN anyway....

https://www.cnn.com/2018/10/26/us/kentu ... index.html

So with that being a cite, you can then put more trust in this

https://www.comicsands.com/supermarket- ... 22276.html

We're flat out losing. Losing everything.

I think this was discussed in the Random Politics thread. Kind of buried in the mail bomber stuff.

[LawBeefaroni]

Kroger shooting touched on here.

[Carpet_pissr]

I saw it pointed out elsewhere that if you need armed guards at your place of worship, you don't really have freedom of religion.

nor an omnipotent omnipresent benevolent god watching over you.

watching≠doing

[LawBeefaroni]

I saw it pointed out elsewhere that if you need armed guards at your place of worship, you don't really have freedom of religion.

nor an omnipotent omnipresent benevolent god watching over you.

watching≠doing

"Watching over" usually implies protecting. I think we get Unagi's point.

[Carpet_pissr]

I saw it pointed out elsewhere that if you need armed guards at your place of worship, you don't really have freedom of religion.

nor an omnipotent omnipresent benevolent god watching over you.

watching≠doing

"Watching over" usually implies protecting. I think we get Unagi's point.

You question my pedantry? Prepare for smiting!

[Isgrimnur]

WaPo

The suspect in a grisly shooting that left 11 people dead at a Pittsburgh synagogue was charged Wednesday in a 44-count indictment accusing him of federal hate crimes.
...
In announcing the indictment, Attorney General Jeff Sessions said the alleged crimes “are incomprehensibly evil and utterly repugnant to the values of this nation. Therefore this case is not only important to the victims and their loved ones, but to the city of Pittsburgh and the entire nation.”

The indictment charges [him] with killing 11 people, and for each of those victims, he faces separate counts of obstruction of free exercise of religion resulting in death, and using a firearm to commit murder during a crime of violence.

He also faces charges of attempting to kill people exercising their religious beliefs, and civil rights charges related to injuring several police officers who responded to the attack.

The charges carry a possible death sentence, and the Justice Department has said previously that federal prosecutors in Pittsburgh had initiated the process to seek such a punishment. The case, though, must still be reviewed by Justice Department lawyers specializing in capital cases, and the final decision will ultimately be left to the attorney general.
...
Bowers also faces number of state charges filed over the weekend, including 11 counts of criminal homicide. Allegheny County District Attorney Stephen A. Zappala Jr. said Tuesday his office sought to have Bowers arraigned on the state charges but were denied by federal authorities. Zappala said that he would prefer that local residents “sit in judgment” of Bowers in a trial, but instead would let the federal case proceed and put the state charges on hold for the time being. The district attorney has signaled he would likely also pursue a death sentence for Bowers.

[LawBeefaroni]

WaPo

Allegheny County District Attorney Stephen A. Zappala Jr. said Tuesday his office sought to have Bowers arraigned on the state charges but were denied by federal authorities. Zappala said that he would prefer that local residents “sit in judgment” of Bowers in a trial, but instead would let the federal case proceed and put the state charges on hold for the time being. The district attorney has signaled he would likely also pursue a death sentence for Bowers.

A death sentence in Pennsylvania isn't really a death sentence. They haven't put anyone to death for like 20 years, despite having one of the highest death row populations. May be why the feds are getting first crack.

[gameoverman]

I don't blame the local people for wanting to be the ones to render the verdict and have their judge pass sentence but hopefully they realize that some crimes are bigger than that.

[Stefan Stirzaker]

And another nightclub. 13 including shooter dead. First responder sherriff deputy shot. More injured.
White male shooter.

[LawBeefaroni]

First responder sherriff deputy shot.

29-year veteran sheriff deputy died.

Per Sheriff on NPR, dead range from 19-25. All on his personal observation, they haven't identified everyone yet.

Age range fits typical demographic of the venue.

Per reports, the shooter shot the security guard outside and then went in shooting immediately.

[Carpet_pissr]

Meh. Another day, another mass shooting in gun-lovin’ Murica. What are ya gonna do?

Thoughts and prayers.

Oh, and the latest NRA-proposed response since ‘thoughts and prayers’ has been mercilessly mocked as superficial, “I hope this sick individual gets the mental help he needs”.

[LawBeefaroni]

Oh, and the latest NRA-proposed response since ‘thoughts and prayers’ has been mercilessly mocked as superficial, “I hope this sick individual gets the mental help he needs”.

Sounds like he did. Far too late, of course.

[GreenGoo]

Meh. Another day, another mass shooting in gun-lovin’ Murica. What are ya gonna do?

...

Oh, and the latest NRA-proposed response since ‘thoughts and prayers’ has been mercilessly mocked as superficial, “I hope this sick individual gets the mental help he needs”.

Semi-regular occurrence in my household:

Wife: There's been another mass shooting.
Me: Yeah, in a nightclub or something?
Wife: <fuzzy details>
Me: Huh.
...
Wife&Me go about our daily business.

We don't even discuss it any more, or even thoughts and prayers. I have no idea what my wife's thoughts on the matter are, but at this point this is just the sun coming up in America. Not much to talk about.

I realize this is not R&P, but it's a bit hypocritical "hoping dude gets healthcare" when the party you (NRA) support is busy making sure healthcare is available to fewer and fewer Americans.

[Archinerd]

Yep. It's now just Thursday.
I can no longer keep track of which shooting was which.

[Kurth]

12 college kids dead at a bar from a mass shooting you say? Barely moves the needle today. Sad.

[funnygirl]

12 college kids dead at a bar from a mass shooting you say? Barely moves the needle today. Sad.

Because my grandchildren fall into this demographic, it moved my needle. But Ruth Bader Ginsburg falling and breaking three ribs brought actual tears to my eyes. Upside down world.

[Kraken]

Wife: There's been another mass shooting.
Me: Yeah, in a nightclub or something?
Wife: <fuzzy details>
Me: Huh.
...
Wife&Me go about our daily business.

Ours went like this today:

Wife: There's been another mass shooting.
Me: Was it political?
Wife: I don't think so.
Me: Was it around here?
Wife: No, California.
Me: Oh well.

End of subject.

[LawBeefaroni]

Shooter had previous contact with law enforcement. Once as the victim if battery in a bar. Another was domestic disturbance and he was referred for BH issues. A few other incidents.

Now saying he likely killed himself in the shooting.

[Holman]

Per reports, the shooter shot the security guard outside and then went in shooting immediately.

Was the security guard just not a good *enough* guy with a gun, or what?

I await the NRA's explanation.

[LawBeefaroni]

Per reports, the shooter shot the security guard outside and then went in shooting immediately.

Was the security guard just not a good *enough* guy with a gun, or what?

I await the NRA's explanation.

Probably more like a bouncer. Guessing he was unarmed.



Some more info released on the shooter. Ex-Marine, 28 years old.

[naednek]

Sheriff stated he had two incidences with the law, car accident and a traffic violation. Suspect is an ex marine. They don't know the motive

[Pyperkub]

And another nightclub. 13 including shooter dead. First responder sherriff deputy shot. More injured.
White male shooter.

In Thousand Oaks (LA Suburban area). I've been checking with a bunch of friends who live in the area and they and their kids (as it was an 18 & over club last night) are all ok so far.

[gameoverman]

Per reports, the shooter shot the security guard outside and then went in shooting immediately.

Was the security guard just not a good *enough* guy with a gun, or what?

I await the NRA's explanation.

Probably more like a bouncer. Guessing he was unarmed.

I doubt him being armed, if he wasn't, would have helped. If the shooter intends to go in and there's an armed guard outside, guess who gets shot first? Even if the armed guard has his gun in his hand he'll still get shot, since the shooter has the element of surprise on his side. About all an armed guard is good for, at best, is responding after the fact. But of course this can't happen if the guard is one of the first victims.

[GreenGoo]

Preaching to the choir.

Now if they had 2 armed gods, totally different. Because reasons.

edit: I'm leaving it in.

[LawBeefaroni]

I wasn't saying that him being armed would have made a difference or not. Just saying that from reports it sounded like he was a bouncer/ doorman and probably unarmed because Holman was suggesting, albeit sarcastically, that he had a gun.