Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS)

[Rumpy]

Yeah, Phasma was a wasted potential. I remember hearing that she'd have more to do in the followup, so I was keenly looking forward to some scenes that would expand on her character, but it was quite sad seeing what they ended up doing with her. The fact that it was supposedly a big character (a stormtrooper commander!) given a unique suit, and given only a few short lines before her end was pretty frustrating to see. Worst of all, it her death served no real purpose. I would have expected someone like her to last through to the 3rd movie.

[pr0ner]

Poe definitely. With Finn, we at least know he's a former stormtrooper who changed sides, but Poe? Who the heck is Poe? It's like he's a mix of Biggs and Luke, though they don't really know what to do with him as a central character. At least by the Empire Strikes Back, Luke had the trench run under his belt to be able to throw his weight around to make a difference. He'd built up some trust within the Rebellion. But Poe doesn't have any of that, which makes Poe's confrontation with Dern all that much more puzzling, because if he'd had more character development giving him some certain weight, that scene would be a lot more understandable, but he comes across as a frustrated lackey. You can tell he wants to make a difference, and he's a likeable character on the surface but all his yelling doesn't change the fact that he's pretty much a nobody.

When it comes down to it, this trilogy draws an awful lot from the past yet isn't creating a history of its own, and I feel it will be less memorable for it.

The funny thing about Rose is that I was constantly feeling like she would have been a better fit in Rogue One.

I dunno, Poe got a fair amount of development in TFA and TLJ. TFA pretty clearly establishes that he's one of the best pilots in the Resistance, and a trusted confidant of Leia (hence getting sent to retrieve the map to Luke just before the start of the film). Since he's clearly connected to the top leadership in the Resistance (at least, to Leia), it makes some sense that he would feel emboldened to stand up to Dern. Also because he doesn't know her, he doesn't trust her.

Phasma's the worst example. They got a great actor to play her, but they just never fit her in anywhere useful to the movies.

I know at least one person who hated TLJ simply because of what happened to Phasma.

[ImLawBoy]

You can't swing a dead cat around without hitting someone who doesn't like TLJ for some reason or another.

[pr0ner]

You can't swing a dead cat around without hitting someone who doesn't like TLJ for some reason or another.

[hentzau]

I thought I read someplace that Poe was actually supposed to die on Jakku in an early draft of the script, but they liked Oscar Isaacs so much they expanded his role.

Of course, internet grain of salt applied here...

[El Guapo]

Poe definitely. With Finn, we at least know he's a former stormtrooper who changed sides, but Poe? Who the heck is Poe? It's like he's a mix of Biggs and Luke, though they don't really know what to do with him as a central character. At least by the Empire Strikes Back, Luke had the trench run under his belt to be able to throw his weight around to make a difference. He'd built up some trust within the Rebellion. But Poe doesn't have any of that, which makes Poe's confrontation with Dern all that much more puzzling, because if he'd had more character development giving him some certain weight, that scene would be a lot more understandable, but he comes across as a frustrated lackey. You can tell he wants to make a difference, and he's a likeable character on the surface but all his yelling doesn't change the fact that he's pretty much a nobody.

When it comes down to it, this trilogy draws an awful lot from the past yet isn't creating a history of its own, and I feel it will be less memorable for it.

The funny thing about Rose is that I was constantly feeling like she would have been a better fit in Rogue One.

I dunno, Poe got a fair amount of development in TFA and TLJ. TFA pretty clearly establishes that he's one of the best pilots in the Resistance, and a trusted confidant of Leia (hence getting sent to retrieve the map to Luke just before the start of the film). Since he's clearly connected to the top leadership in the Resistance (at least, to Leia), it makes some sense that he would feel emboldened to stand up to Dern. Also because he doesn't know her, he doesn't trust her.

Phasma's the worst example. They got a great actor to play her, but they just never fit her in anywhere useful to the movies.

I know at least one person who hated TLJ simply because of what happened to Phasma.

Yeah, but...TFA had too many characters, and TLJ is already too long as it is. You start with Phasma and Snoke and whatnot being underdeveloped. But developing them more would, you know, take more screen time. I think offing both of them fairly quickly was probably the best option for TLJ. Though it would be better if TFA had developed them better or not introduced them at all, but TLJ has to work with what it has.

[McNutt]

Phasma was this generation's Ewok. She was there to sell merchandise. As a character, she was lacking. There was absolutely no reason for her to be in this movie.

Snoke makes no sense. His command of the force is so powerful that he can transport people across the galaxy? Remember when Kylo Ren had water from Rey's planet still on his face? That's powerful force ability. Plus Snoke went on and on about how he could read Kylo like a book, yet he couldn't sense that Kylo was about to kill him. WTF? At least Palpatine's excuse was that he was busy shocking the shit out of Luke when Vader betrayed him.

[Jaymon]

Few suppositions from me.


Of course Snoke and the first order could have wiped out the rebel fleet at any time. It would be stupid easy to jump ahead of them, or call in another couple of ships to block the path. But thats not the point. Snoke, like his predecessors, liked watching the slow drawn out deaths, he wanted to kill their hope before he killed their bodies. The previous victories were done from light years away with a giant cannon, instantly obliterating. Now its finally at the end, and he wants to savor the victory for as long as he can. Watching them become more and more helpless, no allies, no backup, slowly dwindling until they have nothing left. And then, after they are fully broken, then he grants them death.

Alternate theory about Reys parents. It seems that Han and Leia had a breakup or falling out sometime after Kylo was born. I am not clear on the exact timeline. And it also seems that Rey is younger than Kylo. Han, as we know, is a rogue and scoundrel. It would not be terribly out of character for him, after splitting up with Leia, to end up on a sand covered planet at the ass end of the universe, knocking up some local, losing his ship gambling, and making a hasty exit. He has been on sand covered planets as the ass end of the universe before. And he lost his ship gambling once before, but said it was stolen. These new movies have been consistent about showing repetition from the past. And then, he certainly does take an interest in Rey, even going as far as giving her the ship and transferring the life debt. Those are the kinds of actions that happen between family members, not thieving strangers. Han probably figured it out that Rey was his daughter, but decided not to tell anyone except Chewie. When Kylo described Reys parents as nothing, he knew exactly who they were. A nobody bar wench from a nothing planet, and his own father, whom he previously described as "he is nothing to me"

So, why didn't Chewie spend the entire movie plotting vengeance against Kylo? Well, its a combination of factors. One is that Kylo is family, and second is that Han knew he was going to die. Kylo wasn't always Kylo, first he was Ben, and Chewie would have been constantly around and treated him as family, as the Son of his life debt. But then came the drifting apart, the arguments, the bitterness. When family members fight, how do you choose sides? Does knowing a family member has gone bad give you a license to murder them? This confrontation between father and son was a long time coming, and since Han was so old and worn out, the resolution was never really in doubt. To us, the watchers it seemed sudden and unexpected. But to Han and Chewie and Leia and Kylo, it was probably expected, never a question about IF, it was a question about WHEN. Han went in there on a suicide mission.

[Anonymous Bosch]

You can't swing a dead cat around without hitting someone who doesn't like TLJ for some reason or another.

That's because TLJ is the Disneyfied Star Wars-movie equivalent of Jar Jar Binks (I say that, only because a similar observation could be applied to the negative reception that character received following the release of The Phantom Menace, but that doesn't mean the reactions were unjustified).

Sooner or later the scales will fall from your eyes, and you'll realise the disrobed nature of Darth Sidious.

[Rumpy]

Phasma was this generation's Ewok.

One could argue the Ewoks actually served a purpose. She on the other hand was pure fodder. Two teeny scenes in each movie and cut down. Didn't even get to do anything. Now I hear there's a novel to explain her significance in the universe

[Holman]

Sooner or later the scales will fall from your eyes, and you'll realise the disrobed nature of Darth Sidious.

Not in Disney you won't.

[Holman]

Phasma was this generation's Ewok.

One could argue the Ewoks actually served a purpose. She on the other hand was pure fodder. Two teeny scenes in each movie and cut down. Didn't even get to do anything. Now I hear there's a novel to explain her significance in the universe

I think she was Boba Fett.

Remember the buildup around him? He appeared as an action figure before TESB ever came out, and everyone just *knew* he was the coolest thing coming: a real badass bounty hunter! Look at the helmet! HE HAS A ROCKET!

Then he had six minutes of screen time and precisely four lines of dialogue.

[McNutt]

I think she was Boba Fett.

That's a better example. She captured everyone's imagination and then just fizzled.

[Scuzz]

Poe definitely. With Finn, we at least know he's a former stormtrooper who changed sides, but Poe? Who the heck is Poe? It's like he's a mix of Biggs and Luke, though they don't really know what to do with him as a central character. At least by the Empire Strikes Back, Luke had the trench run under his belt to be able to throw his weight around to make a difference. He'd built up some trust within the Rebellion. But Poe doesn't have any of that, which makes Poe's confrontation with Dern all that much more puzzling, because if he'd had more character development giving him some certain weight, that scene would be a lot more understandable, but he comes across as a frustrated lackey. You can tell he wants to make a difference, and he's a likeable character on the surface but all his yelling doesn't change the fact that he's pretty much a nobody.

When it comes down to it, this trilogy draws an awful lot from the past yet isn't creating a history of its own, and I feel it will be less memorable for it.

The funny thing about Rose is that I was constantly feeling like she would have been a better fit in Rogue One.

I dunno, Poe got a fair amount of development in TFA and TLJ. TFA pretty clearly establishes that he's one of the best pilots in the Resistance, and a trusted confidant of Leia (hence getting sent to retrieve the map to Luke just before the start of the film). Since he's clearly connected to the top leadership in the Resistance (at least, to Leia), it makes some sense that he would feel emboldened to stand up to Dern. Also because he doesn't know her, he doesn't trust her.

Phasma's the worst example. They got a great actor to play her, but they just never fit her in anywhere useful to the movies.

Po is pretty much established as the leader of the fighter wing, since he has led every mission we have seen them on. And in TFA at the base he seems to have some gravitas, but in this movie he seems wreckless and and it's as though he has no position of authority. We basically no nothing more about him than we knew 1/2 hour into the first movie.

[msteelers]

Po is pretty much established as the leader of the fighter wing, since he has led every mission we have seen them on. And in TFA at the base he seems to have some gravitas,

This.

but in this movie he seems wreckless and and it's as though he has no position of authority.

He was demoted after he disobeyed a direct order and got what appears to be all of the resistance's bombers destroyed.

[msteelers]

Snoke makes no sense. His command of the force is so powerful that he can transport people across the galaxy? Remember when Kylo Ren had water from Rey's planet still on his face? That's powerful force ability. Plus Snoke went on and on about how he could read Kylo like a book, yet he couldn't sense that Kylo was about to kill him. WTF? At least Palpatine's excuse was that he was busy shocking the shit out of Luke when Vader betrayed him.

Snoke did read his mind, he just misinterpreted it. He talks about Kylo getting ready to strike down his true enemy. Snoke thought it was Rey.

It's like they say, "Pride goeth before a laser sword cuts you in half".

[Rumpy]

Po is pretty much established as the leader of the fighter wing, since he has led every mission we have seen them on. And in TFA at the base he seems to have some gravitas, but in this movie he seems wreckless and and it's as though he has no position of authority. We basically no nothing more about him than we knew 1/2 hour into the first movie.

Exactly. He hasn't really had much development beyond that. A lot of these characters just feel rudderless, which is a shame as I really want to like them and know what they're up to, but if the movie isn't giving me enough to really care much about them as a viewer, it will end up making me feel less invested overall in the new trilogy.

[Zarathud]

You can't swing a dead gungan around without hitting someone who doesn't like TLJ for some reason or another.

Fixed that for you.

[sgoldj]

I watched TLJ for the second time last night. The second viewing cemented my opinion that this trilogy is all about cleaning out the old and handing things to the new generation. Snoke’s back story didn’t matter to the film because he is there for Keylo to clear out of his way (unceremoniously). Luke is gone, Han is gone, Akkbar, the Resistance Leaders, I assume Leia next movie to finish it, Chewie going off, etc etc etc.

Episodes X XI XII will be about the new younger characters

[McNutt]

Yeah, I have a strong feeling Leah isn't going to make it through episode IX. Call it a hunch.

[Rumpy]

Well, that much was obvious, especially to the way it's been done which is similar to the original trilogy in how they handled things. But the new group is not nearly as interesting or as well developed and without the old gang, there's just not all that much to keep interest. Remains to be seen if people will remember this trilogy as well as we've all remembered the OT.

[Anonymous Bosch]

I watched TLJ for the second time last night. The second viewing cemented my opinion that this trilogy is all about cleaning out the old and handing things to the new generation. Snoke’s back story didn’t matter to the film because he is there for Keylo to clear out of his way (unceremoniously). Luke is gone, Han is gone, Akkbar, the Resistance Leaders, I assume Leia next movie to finish it, Chewie going off, etc etc etc.

Episodes X XI XII will be about the new younger characters

Obviously, but therein lies the rub; two movies into the current trilogy, we've learned next to nothing about the new principal cast due to deficiencies of character-development. A good Star Wars tale ought to have well-developed characters that the audience cares about (e.g. Rogue One and the OT movies), but TLJ screwed the pooch in that regard. With most of the OT characters now having been frittered away or diminished in TLJ, I doubt it bodes well going forward.

[Rumpy]

+1 I'm in complete agreement.

That's not to say I didn't enjoy it though. I feel it was still better developed than TFA, but that's not really saying much. I wish I could give the movie more credit, but alas.

[Holman]

I hate to say it, but Star Wars might be played out.

Everything great about it was in the core characters (Luke, Han, Leia, Vader) and the way they shaped the experience. Eps IV and V were the best not just because they were well-made but because they fully realized those characters. Everything else has been derivative even if the best of it has been exciting. The constant call-backs and the repetitive core plotting (how many Death Stars??) points to how little There there is beyond IV and V.

The only post-V sequel that breaks this pattern is Rogue One, and it works because it's (a) a war movie rather than a science fantasy, and (b) a self-contained one-off.

[hentzau]

I hate to say it, but Star Wars might be played out.

Beg to disagree. Look no further than the excellent Star Wars Rebels. It has the leisure of a series to allow characters to be developed but it is a great Star Wars story.

[Holman]

I hate to say it, but Star Wars might be played out.

Beg to disagree. Look no further than the excellent Star Wars Rebels. It has the leisure of a series to allow characters to be developed but it is a great Star Wars story.

I haven't seen any Rebels, so I can't judge it, but I saw a lot of the Clone Wars animated series.

The best episodes were great fun, but they still always had the whiff of fan fiction: an extended story that existed for the sake of callbacks to the dense core experience established in 1977-80.

[Zarathud]

Original Star Wars is similarly weak. 3 movies to find out about Jabba? 2 movies before the reveal about Vader? Chewie's life debt to Han is never discussed onscreen. Lando and Yoda similarly come out of nowhere.

The original trilogy's strength cane from its focus on the core 3 Rebels -- Luke, Leia, and Han -- with the maneuvers of Vader or the Empire as counterpoint.

Last Jedi suffers because Force Awakens never tied Finn and Poe as strongly to Rey or each other. They'll finally do that in IX, but they should have closed earlier.

[Daehawk]

These new movies are fine to watch but they dont seem to be going anywhere fast. I dont feel like the characters are developed at all and yet by the end of Star Wars I felt Luke and Han and the gang were well known and fleshed out. Im still trying to keep Fenn, Ren, and Rey names straight.

Gotta say I loved having Oz as Yoda again. Really nice seeing him as a force ghost.

[Scuzz]

Original Star Wars is similarly weak. 3 movies to find out about Jabba? 2 movies before the reveal about Vader? Chewie's life debt to Han is never discussed onscreen. Lando and Yoda similarly come out of nowhere.

The original trilogy's strength cane from its focus on the core 3 Rebels -- Luke, Leia, and Han -- with the maneuvers of Vader or the Empire as counterpoint.

Last Jedi suffers because Force Awakens never tied Finn and Poe as strongly to Rey or each other. They'll finally do that in IX, but they should have closed earlier.

I agree totally with your first two paragraphs. The Force Awakens actually ties Finn to Rey but they in TLJ he is totally removed from her. It is as though his character isn't really as important as we were led to believe. If Po is just a pilot and really nothing else, fine, but they keep treating him as more than that.

The original movies focused on 3 main characters, the new series doesn't seem to be able to make up it's mind who it wants to focus on. TLJ looked for awhile like maybe the Ren-Rey story was the main line, and if they stay there for movie #3 I think they will be okay.

Finally, I think making something that would have pleased everyone would have been impossible. The bar was just set to high.

[Scuzz]

These new movies are fine to watch but they dont seem to be going anywhere fast. I dont feel like the characters are developed at all and yet by the end of Star Wars I felt Luke and Han and the gang were well known and fleshed out. Im still trying to keep Fenn, Ren, and Rey names straight.

Gotta say I loved having Oz as Yoda again. Really nice seeing him as a force ghost.

See, that appears to be the problem though. It's like they can't give up the old and so they are weak in giving us new.

[Rumpy]

The original movies focused on 3 main characters, the new series doesn't seem to be able to make up it's mind who it wants to focus on. TLJ looked for awhile like maybe the Ren-Rey story was the main line, and if they stay there for movie #3 I think they will be okay.

It's more than that though. It's something about the pacing and how much time is given for them to develop, and everyone got equal time. I mean, look at how much we've learned about Han over the course of 3 movies. A large chunk of time was spent on him being frozen in carbonite and then the 3rd movie had his rescue. All of them were equally important though, and important to the core storyline. This new trilogy in comparison is breathless. There's practically no downtime. They're always chasing after the next threat. About the only downtime is had with Rey allowing for some introspection, and I have to say, the most satisfying thing about this movie is the closure we've had with Luke, and again, that's an OT character. And yet, we learn very little about the new crew.

This trilogy has the Abrams box of storytelling; posing questions after questions where there are no answers in sight. Which we'll likely never get as these characters are not as well developed or have many distinctions of their own. Remember, TFA had R2 shut down because it was in a funk over Luke, paraphrasing from Abram's own words, and leaving the reveal to the end of the movie. I remember feeling very awkward and disappointed about what they had done by treating him as a mere plot device. I felt very sad about that.

See, that appears to be the problem though. It's like they can't give up the old and so they are weak in giving us new.

Hole in one. And when all of those classic characters are gone? They won't have anything strong enough to hold it together. Oh, no doubt they'll try by having a crazy convoluted plot, again at the expense of character.

Lucas got a lot of hate, sure, but at least he had a vision. And all throughout the prequels, he tried to tie it to the OT aesthetically speaking into a sort of visual unity. I'm not seeing a whole lot of that in the new. Heck, the very specific scene swipes seemed to mostly be absent in TLJ. Again, I know he gets a lot of hate, but I think it would have been nice to see his vision of 7-8-9 even if done by different directors, even if just for the sake of visual continuity. The new movies are OK, but they feel off, as if they're thrumming at a different frequency.

[Scuzz]

Well, in the first movies there was the passage of time between movies. In the new movies it is basically one event directly after the other. We are not given time to allow events off camera to develop.

[McNutt]

It's like they can't give up the old and so they are weak in giving us new.

Are we talking about Star Trek?

[pr0ner]

I agree totally with your first two paragraphs. The Force Awakens actually ties Finn to Rey but they in TLJ he is totally removed from her. It is as though his character isn't really as important as we were led to believe. If Po is just a pilot and really nothing else, fine, but they keep treating him as more than that.

I would disagree with this. At the end of TFA, Rey is on Luke's Island, and Finn is under medical supervision. During TLJ, once Finn awakes, his primary goal is to find Rey. Yes, they're physically kept apart, but Finn is still worried about her and driven to find her, even if it means running away.

[Rumpy]

That's not really character development though. That's all through plot-convenience, which there is a lot of in these movies.

[pr0ner]

That's not really character development though. That's all through plot-convenience, which there is a lot of in these movies.

I'd disagree there, too. There's character development, it's just not handed to you (or others here) in the way you want it to be handed to you.

[Brian]

The new movies are OK, but they feel off, as if they're thrumming at a different frequency.

If there's one theme I've seen hammered over and over in the reviews of TLJ it's been this, "Let the past die. Kill it if you have to." Which is what they seem to be doing. Killing off all the OT characters, vision, and perhaps most importantly, the expectations of long-time fans.

I would say they have succeeded in exactly that. This movie, with the help of TFA, has effectively killed off pretty much all of the enthusiasm I once held for this franchise.

[Scuzz]

Finn wakes up just as the movie starts. He then ends up in a plot of Po's and runs off to grab a guy with a person who should have stopped him.

Finn ends up in a side plot that really serves no purpose except to bring the guy who is going to expose them to the New Order.

The movie separates them and, because of the foolishness of the plot, pretty much reduces Finn to a side bar.

[Isgrimnur]

We need a Star Wars: Farscape.

[Scuzz]

The new movies are OK, but they feel off, as if they're thrumming at a different frequency.

If there's one theme I've seen hammered over and over in the reviews of TLJ it's been this, "Let the past die. Kill it if you have to." Which is what they seem to be doing. Killing off all the OT characters, vision, and perhaps most importantly, the expectations of long-time fans.

I would say they have succeeded in exactly that. This movie, with the help of TFA, has effectively killed off pretty much all of the enthusiasm I once held for this franchise.

Well, I loved the first movie. It gave me everything I needed. New characters to love and a chance to meet old friends. I do think they kind of abused that in the second movie. Having Leia fly in space was a little much. The plot bogged down while they tried to more or less stop time so they could make other call backs.

I didn't hate TLJ, if it pops up on Starz or netflix I will watch it. Maybe seeing it a second time will change something, I don't know. I just thought that for everything good in the second movie there was something questionable, if not bad.