Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS)

[morlac]

I also felt Luke's departure diminished his final sacrifice of much, if any, heroism. Sure, he sacrifices his life to protect the remaining members of the Resistance, but in so doing there were no stakes involved for him. He sacrifices his life from a safe distance by only sending his illusory Force-projection to stall Kylo Ren, exposing him to absolutely no danger. Even though he did end up sacrificing his life for a good cause, it was not the danger that actually killed him, but just exhaustion. In other words, there's a huge difference between Vice Admiral Evening Gown having to stare death in the face during her final act and Luke Skywalker’s simple overexertion on a ledge overlooking the sea. There's no risk, and without risk, there's no glory. By never facing the enemy, it comes across as a much less heroic act.

There is no difference at all. So because one death ended in an explosion and one ended with a crumbling robe they are somehow not equal? Sacrificing yourself is the ultimate form of heroism, weather it is with a whimper or awesome CGI. The end result is the same. He knew it would kill him but save the others and he did it anyway, just like she did. Seems to be a silly thing to nitpick.

[ImLawBoy]

I find it hard to see why it would be so difficult to accept Luke considering offing Ben Solo for like a couple seconds when he finds he's gone to the dark side.

I think the whole "Luke giving up forever and becoming a hermit" is a tougher thing to sell (basically for the reasons Mark Hamill said), although I get that to some degree (and as others have said, per Obi-Wan and Yoda it seems to be the thing that Jedi Masters do when a student goes to the dark side, for some reason).

For Yoda and Obi Wan, it was at least in part because they were in hiding after Palpatine and Anakin/Vader tried to wipe out all of the Jedi. I think with Luke, it's more because he became disillusioned with Jediism in general.

[morlac]

I find it hard to see why it would be so difficult to accept Luke considering offing Ben Solo for like a couple seconds when he finds he's gone to the dark side.

I think the whole "Luke giving up forever and becoming a hermit" is a tougher thing to sell (basically for the reasons Mark Hamill said), although I get that to some degree (and as others have said, per Obi-Wan and Yoda it seems to be the thing that Jedi Masters do when a student goes to the dark side, for some reason).

Not just a pupil turning to the darkside but also destroying the Jedi order. Both times! I would probably go into hiding for shame as well. I can sympathize with him, his family has been responsible for the slaughter of how many millions of innocents? First Anakin, which he somewhat redeemed. Then it happens all over again but this time Luke is the Teacher/Master. That's a helluva large amount of guilt and blame to deal with, especially the second one which totally negates all the good he did prior. This is exactly why he says "F It, burn it all!" it aint working as is.

[El Guapo]

I find it hard to see why it would be so difficult to accept Luke considering offing Ben Solo for like a couple seconds when he finds he's gone to the dark side.

I think the whole "Luke giving up forever and becoming a hermit" is a tougher thing to sell (basically for the reasons Mark Hamill said), although I get that to some degree (and as others have said, per Obi-Wan and Yoda it seems to be the thing that Jedi Masters do when a student goes to the dark side, for some reason).

For Yoda and Obi Wan, it was at least in part because they were in hiding after Palpatine and Anakin/Vader tried to wipe out all of the Jedi. I think with Luke, it's more because he became disillusioned with Jediism in general.

That's fair. And Obi-Wan at least had a job to do keeping tabs on Luke.

Though with Yoda, as with Luke, he (as far as we can tell) was doing literally nothing while the galaxy fell to darkness. I guess the argument would be that he was waiting around for Luke or Leia to train them later, maybe? But come to think of it, at the start of ANH Luke and Leia were young adults - why hadn't Obi-Wan or Yoda done anything to reach out to either of them? If Leia's flight from Vader hadn't happened to take her through Tatooine (by random chance, it appears), and just happened to connect Luke to Obi-Wan, were they planning on doing nothing?

[El Guapo]

I find it hard to see why it would be so difficult to accept Luke considering offing Ben Solo for like a couple seconds when he finds he's gone to the dark side.

I think the whole "Luke giving up forever and becoming a hermit" is a tougher thing to sell (basically for the reasons Mark Hamill said), although I get that to some degree (and as others have said, per Obi-Wan and Yoda it seems to be the thing that Jedi Masters do when a student goes to the dark side, for some reason).

Not just a pupil turning to the darkside but also destroying the Jedi order. Both times! I would probably go into hiding for shame as well. I can sympathize with him, his family has been responsible for the slaughter of how many millions of innocents? First Anakin, which he somewhat redeemed. Then it happens all over again but this time Luke is the Teacher/Master. That's a helluva large amount of guilt and blame to deal with, especially the second one which totally negates all the good he did prior. This is exactly why he says "F It, burn it all!" it aint working as is.

I mean, I get it, I just think that's a more understandable and substantive criticism than Luke's moment with Ben Solo. And I can see the problem for people who want to at least have a moment with heroic Jedi Master Luke Skywalker that they never *really* got (even though I personally did like the phantom Luke trick).

[morlac]

I would have liked to seen a full blown Lightsaber fight as well but we have seen Luke do that already in all his Jedi glory. He took out Darth Freaking Vader after all.

[morlac]

One last post for now...


From the quoted article about how this version of Luke Sucks:

Could we imagine a broken and defeated Luke Skywalker giving into his fear and anger and contemplating such a horrific act? Maybe. But we learned that Luke considered this kind of murder before his nephew went dark. Indeed, it ends up being precisely because Luke raises his lightsaber against his own flesh and blood that Ben Solo becomes Kylo Ren.

This sorry episode supposedly occurs only a few years after Luke says, “I can’t kill my own father” in response to Kenobi asking him to stop the Empire by killing Darth Vader. Even in the face of an actual (not just possible) existential threat, Luke can’t imagine killing a family member. Indeed, the lesson Luke learns - and that he taught all of us growing up with him - was that the future is not set, but “always in motion.” It is by pursuing and lifting up the goodness in others that evil is authentically and ultimately defeated.

Johnson’s Luke, a totally foreign character, is light-years away from that lesson. This Luke instead makes a crude utilitarian calculation about what the results might be from his killing an innocent person.

Rubbish. It wasn't a 'few' years after more like 30. Also, the fact that his prized pupil and nephew is becoming Vader all over again would probably have some sort of negative effect on a person's psyche. Of course he is light years away from that lesson. A lot of bad shit happened in between and history is repeating itself basically negating all the sacrifices made by Luke Prior making everything feel like it was for naught. F it im Moving to nowhere sounds like a decent idea to me.

[AWS260]

I think Luke contemplating killing Ben is perfectly in line with his character. He has always dabbled with the dark side throughout his character arc.

I 100% agree with this.

[Nightwish]

But then again they probably aren't tearing empire strikes back apart [...] I mean be critical if you want, but lets not act like Star Wars has ever been a shining light of realism in space.

The only way the OT makes sense is with retcon after retcon after retcon, and most of it was thrown in the trash by Disney and isn't even cannon anymore. It's not science fiction and never was, it's a world of magic and sword fighting.
And Luke certainly contemplated killing Vader for far longer in his 2 hour screen time ( 30 years of Luke's character development? WTFLOL not cannon) in the OT then Ren. And with TFA set in stone, a better reason for exile would be what, exactly? Abject fear to be countered by "you're our only hope"? Much better.

[Sudy]

I saw it for the second time tonight and I'm quite happy with it. There are elements I don't like, sure. As with Han in Awakens, this isn't the evolution of Luke's character that most of us (or even Hamil) imagined. But that doesn't mean it's bad, or wrong. One of the great things about viewing Star Wars as a modern mythology is that you can view the "Legends" expanded universe as equally valid, even if it's not officially canon.

I don't want to type out a whole list, but of note I also don't care for the sappy "rebel kids" storyline, even if I do love the underlying message that being a nobody doesn't prevent you from becoming a Jedi, or shaping the rebel cause. "Broom kid" is annoyingly cute (on nearly an Episode One Anakin level), and if I see one more geek completely miss the point and postulate who he really is/will become, I'm going to snap. (Uh, if that's occurred earlier in this thread which I haven't read, I mean you no offense.)

It may make me a geeky sap myself, but Yoda's presence and actions brought tears to my eyes during both viewings. Touching both in-universe, and as a parallel to some of the challenges and philosophies I've toiled with in my own life.

I think Luke contemplating killing Ben is perfectly in line with his character. He has always dabbled with the dark side throughout his character arc.

I 100% agree with this.

Too bad this wasn't overtly explored, either in his story in Last Jedi, nor Rey's arc with Kylo. I was hoping Luke's dismantling of the Jedi order might result in a formal acknowledgment of the notions of "light" and "dark" being misunderstandings, with ardent discipleship in either at the expense of the other often resulting in pain and disaster. But even in this very grey, relativistic entry in the series, this will have to be left to the expanded universe. (Or just my own fantasies, in which Rey does in fact take Kylo's hand on Snoke's ship--and while Kylo doesn't fully "turn", he does eschew the First Order and dismantle it, transforming its forces into something less genocidal and oppressive.)

[Scoop20906]

I have a theory about Rey and forgive me if it has already been posted on here.

The force is always looking for balance. That seems to be a theme in the prequels. For example, during the time of the Republic the Jedi order have hundreds (maybe thousands) of members. To counteract this, the force creates Anakin Skywalker (no father). Skywalker eventually balances the force by becoming one of the most powerful Sith ever but in the process he uses that power to all but destroy the Jedi. Much later, the Emperor and Vader are destroyed in one fell swoop and the dark side is now less powerful then the light which has Luke Skywalker.

20 years later (I am assuming) Luke is busy trying to rebuild the Jedi Order and is training his nephew Ben Solo. Again, Ben is the attempt by the force to balance it. Ben is drawn to the dark side by Snoke and Luke can see it coming. He isn't able to bring himself to kill Ben and now a intense powerful dark side user exists along with Snook. The force has balance for a short time. Then Luke seeing that he has failed travels to the planet where the Jedi order originated looking for answers and comes to the realization that there will always be a battle between the Jedi and Sith and decides he wants nothing to do with it and shuts himself off from the force. The force notes that the balance does not exist and another fatherless child is born, Rey. Since both Snoke and Kylo Ren is exist and are very powerful in the force, this help explains how Rey is so powerful and so quickly learn to use her power. Kylo was probably similar in his assent to power. In the movie, Snoke alludes that he thought the Kylo's enemy was Luke Skywalker and that is why he spent so much time goading Kylo into hunting him down to kill him. He did not anticipate Rey because he did not realize Luke had given up his power which is something Snoke could not comprehend doing.

So, that is my theory. What do you guys think?

[Chrisoc13]

I agree and think it's a pretty good explanation. Snoke basically makes that same argument in the throne room scene. He assumed Luke would be the balance but it was clear Rey was now that balance.

Star wars has never been big on real Jedi training prior to the prequels. This fit.

[wonderpug]

Jenny Nicholson's Top 10 Worst Reasons You Hated The Last Jedi

Just about everything she says is a spot on match for my criticisms of the criticisms. I mainly just disagree with her consistent dislike of Rogue One, which I enjoyed plenty.

[Rumpy]

I finally saw it tonight with my Dad. I went in not knowing anything, ie I did my best staying away from any spoilerific material and went in fresh. I found it to be a very satisfying movie. I had many issues with TFA, a lot of them being down to execution, and I felt that while that movie had Star Wars in its looks, I largely felt it was a very blunt and cold movie without much heart. When Rogue One came around, I enjoyed it much more than one of the main movies. With The Last Jedi, most of my complaints from TFA didn't carry over. I felt it was a much better movie in almost every respect. It seemed more sure of itself, in its place in the world, and I might say even more relaxed. Everything just seemed to gel better, down to the humour, the transitions and everything else. Probably too late now, but given how much I enjoyed it this time around, I'd really wish Johnson would direct the next one. Overall, I found this more emotionally resonant than TFA.

[Daehawk]

Just got back. Found it to be a strange feeling movie. One giant long chase scene with some stuff sprinkled in. Found myself muttering to Rey a few time.."you're stupid!"

Was happy and not happy about Luke. I wanted more than 2 moves and done. Seriously?? Liked the way he went out though. Felt like the beginning on Tatooine.

Sad all around really. It felt like the end of a series and yet theres another to go Im thinking. Really felt over with Luke and Snoke gone and the Rebels decimated. Not sure where the hell it will go from here. Weird movie all around.

EDIT: That chase scene makes me scratch my head. I can understand them not jumping ahead of them but not sending in fighters and bomber? "We cant support them"..SO? You never cared before and its whats they always did..send in the fighters and keep the capital ships back. Could have won right there. had at least 4 SDs full of fighters. BLAH! I say BLAH! It was like Fury Road only much slower and much less interesting.

And Phasma?? WTH. Again she was a throw away. She fights a little then lays there and dies instead of getting up. ARGH. I have nothing against the actress but they didn't give her anything to work with.

And Im still wondering who Snoke was and what happened to him. The entire time he is blatantly using reverse psychology on Ren Im saying "Ya and who was it kicked your ass?"

[Daehawk]

I got to say it...there were some funny bits in this movie. I laughed out loud when Snoke smacked Rey upside the head with the lightsaber. She deserved that so much.

I have a terrible itch to reinstall SWTOR.

And when Admiral Dern lightspeeded into the ship I whispered BOOM very quietly but it was deathly quiet at that moment and I felt like I had shouted it

I thought Snoke really had potential to be a great bad guy and they ruined it.

[Daehawk]

I tried to watch that girls video but she is wrong in so many ways and I also just cant stand to listen to her whine her words out. She seems a little slow. Not sure thats intentional...if so she should stop it.

[Daehawk]

Is there some stated reason as to why the AT-ATs went from walking and looking kool to be being knuckle draggin apes?

[Daehawk]

Was just considering what a wonderful story it might have been if Rey had taken Ren's hand there at the throne room scene and went from there.

Also.....

Force Awakens has huge planet killing moon that gets destroyed

Last Jedi has huge giant killer starship that gets destroyed

Any guesses at to what big giant huge tech thing that gets destroyed in the 3rd movie?

[Holman]

Is there some stated reason as to why the AT-ATs went from walking and looking kool to be being knuckle draggin apes?

They went from mules to gorillas. Gorillas are tougher.

[Daehawk]

Is a child writing designing the movie now?...edit...bigger child.

[Kelric]

Is there some stated reason as to why the AT-ATs went from walking and looking kool to be being knuckle draggin apes?

They aren't AT-ATs, that's why. The First Order has slightly altered Empire-era technology over the last 30 years.

[wonderpug]

Is there some stated reason as to why the AT-ATs went from walking and looking kool to be being knuckle draggin apes?

They aren't AT-ATs, that's why. The First Order has slightly altered Empire-era technology over the last 30 years.

They had AT-ATs as well in the battle. The new ones are 2-3 times bigger than the Empire Strikes Back style AT-ATs:


FWIW I thought the new ones looked great. I didn't like the leg style pre-movie when I saw it in pics of the Lego Heavy Walker version, but when I saw how massive the walkers were in the movie I thought the knuckle dragging style fit really well.

[Kelric]

I don't like the knuckle dragging at all, but I'm fine with the rest of the changes.

[Punisher]

EDIT: That chase scene makes me scratch my head. I can understand them not jumping ahead of them but not sending in fighters and bomber? "We cant support them"..SO? You never cared before and its whats they always did..send in the fighters and keep the capital ships back. Could have won right there. had at least 4 SDs full of fighters. BLAH! I say BLAH! It was like Fury Road only much slower and much less interesting.

Remember, this is the new and improved Empire. I don't think they throw away their fighters as much.. Plus as soon as the Rebels outdistanced the SD's they were able to focus on the fighters and started picking them off.

[Punisher]

Is there some stated reason as to why the AT-ATs went from walking and looking kool to be being knuckle draggin apes?

They aren't AT-ATs, that's why. The First Order has slightly altered Empire-era technology over the last 30 years.

They had AT-ATs as well in the battle. The new ones are 2-3 times bigger than the Empire Strikes Back style AT-ATs:


FWIW I thought the new ones looked great. I didn't like the leg style pre-movie when I saw it in pics of the Lego Heavy Walker version, but when I saw how massive the walkers were in the movie I thought the knuckle dragging style fit really well.

Cant remember where, but I read 2 reasons for the changes
1) Is was a direct response to Hoth. The legs would resist the cable maneuver.
2) The new ones had heavier firepower/artillery (I think that extra cannon above their head.. Which I don't recall seeing them fire..) and the legs helped stabilize them.. When I read this I thought there would be a scene where they kneel down on them to stabilize.. I really thought they would do that with the giant door.

[Holman]

This thread has me thinking about the Hoth AT-AT scenes and how it's a callback to ancient war elephants.

[Punisher]

This thread has me thinking about the Hoth AT-AT scenes and how it's a callback to ancient war elephants.

Really? Were they taken down by someone running around them with a rope?

[Holman]

This thread has me thinking about the Hoth AT-AT scenes and how it's a callback to ancient war elephants.

Really? Were they taken down by someone running around them with a rope?

Do flaming pigs count?

[YellowKing]

Really? Were they taken down by someone running around them with a rope?

Nope. Swap between hunter and predator bow. Dodge until you build up your critical attack then close and slice them in the rear.

This history lesson brought to you by Assassin's Creed: Origins.

[Kurth]

Finally saw this yesterday. Really disappointed. I loved the last one in this series, and I enjoyed Rogue Squadron (more on subsequent viewings), but this one seemed . . . Really stupid. Right from the outset.

I’m sure most if not all of this has been voiced but, what the hell was up with:

1) the stupid slow motion space chase? This mechanic set up the whole movie, and it was impossibly dumb.
2) the completely unnecessary Poe mutiny? Was there some reason Admiral Dern couldn’t tell Poe she actually had a plan and wasn’t just leading them to annihilation?
3) Finn and Rose and their relationship? Not well done and very ambiguous.
4) the sheer amount of recycling with small twists? Ooh, let’s do a Mos Eisly cantina, but let’s make it nice like Monte Carlo. Ooh, let’s do a Hoth battle, but let’s do it on salt over red velvet cake instead of snow. Ohh, let’s have some Ewoks, but we’ll give them wings and make them birds. Ohh, let’s have Luke get cut down by Kyle REN just like Vader took out Obi Wan, but let’s have it all actually be an illusion with Luke actually sitting safely Indian style light years away. But then let’s have him die from exhaustion . . just because. Etc. etc. etc.

Bummer. I think this one really had the hands of Disney all over it, and not for the good. Bad story, bad execution.

On the bright side, I continue to enjoy Rey and Kyle Ren and Poe and Finn. So there’s hope. But this movie was a C+ at best for me.

[Fitzy]

It occurs to me that the casino was the perfect place to bring back Lando. I suppose that would have been borrowing too much from Empire.

[Rumpy]

Yeah, I actually turned to my Dad when Maz was listing the credentials, and told my Dad it could be Lando and was disappointed that it wasn't and turned out to be a rather throwaway character. The whole business of him selling them out was not very well written and felt on the whole pretty cheap. Definitely not something Lando would have done.

[McNutt]

Saw it last night for the first time. It wasn't as bad as The Force Awakens, but it had a lot of stuff that was hard for me to get over:

Rebel ships slow down and maybe stop when they run out of fuel. In space.

Way too many examples of people saving the day:
1. On the casino planet Finn and Rose are saved after Benecio Del Toro's character somehow shows up at the cliff with a ship.
2. Finn and Rose are again saved when the Rebel cruiser hyperspaces into Snoke's ship and incapacitates or kills everyone that was around them while leaving them unharmed.
3. Rey and Kylo Ren are in a Mexican standoff until Luke's lightsaber blows up and incapacitates Kylo Ren, allowing Rey to somehow escape.
4. Kylo Ren thinks Luke is going to kill him, so he brings the building down on both of them, incapacitating Luke long enough for Kylo Ren to round up his followers and kill everyone else.
5. The Rebel speeders are about to be destroyed by TIE fighters. Chewbacca and Rey show up just in time to save the day.
6. Finn is about to do something that might help by sacrificing himself to blow up the battering ram. Rose flies in at the last second to save him. I'm not sure why their ships crashing were survivable while everybody else dies when their ships crash. That also applies to them in their shuttle that crashed into the base wall and slid into the hanger unharmed. Those two just have a knack for safely crashing ships.

People shouldn't come in to save the day that many times in a movie. In Star Wars it happened once when Han flew in on the trench run. In Empire Strikes Back it happened once when Han saved Luke in the snow. Han even commented that it was twice. Here, six times in one movie.

The Rebel cruisers have great shields. The First Order's dreadnought has none. A small fighter was able to disable every defensive gun emplacement. Step your game up, First Order.

The Rebel fleet just happened to come out of hyperspace within a few days journey at sublight speed to an abandoned Rebel base? If they were planning on regrouping at that base anyway, why not just come out of hyperspace in orbit? They didn't know they were being chased as that was thought to be impossible. This was a really bad "as fate would have it" moment.

Why did the main cruiser that was left behind have to be piloted by an admiral? The Rebels are critically low on people, so why sacrifice the second-highest officer? This is probably my smallest complaint in this list, but damn.

The Jedi have a long tradition of taking force sensitive kids and training them non-stop for over a decade before they are ready. Rey was ready after a couple of days of short lessons (seriously, did any lesson last over ten minutes?). Her training was shorter than Luke's, which was ridiculously short to begin with. Now she's on her way as the lone practitioner of the Jedi way?

There is a lot of backstory that is left untold which should have been told. Who is Snoke and how did he come to power? Why does he just sit in an empty room doing nothing? At least Palpatine gave himself a view. How big is the First order? What happened to the Jedi students that joined Kylo Ren? I'm sure these will be explained in novels. I shouldn't have to read additional books to get an understanding of some important details.

Why is the First Order's second in command allowed to be the second in command? He's almost comedic in his ineptness and does not show any qualities whatsoever that are required for leading a major army.

Captain Phasma previously gave up the shield codes that led to the destruction of the Starkiller base. Everything would have been fine for the First Order had she not done that. Yet she's still around with seemingly no punishment? She was given lots of attention via commercials and toys, but she was a throwaway character who never did anything but fail.

What was the purpose of flying those useless speeders at the walkers? Brand new Snowspeeders only had a chance if they tangled up their legs. I don't think these could do that. Rose talked about not wanting to waste lives, but that's exactly what those things did and they never had a chance to be any more effective than the guns by the base. Seemed like it was designed to satisfy a battle quota.

Everything that happened on the casino planet was just terrible. I mean really awful.

I did like everything about Kylo Ren and Rey. That was good and kept me intrigued. I didn't hate the movie. I just wish it had less dumb shit.

[Daehawk]

All completely valid points.

I felt it was Mad Max Fury Road but stuck in 1st gear.

[Rumpy]

One major thing: I guess it's the way current movies are being made, but I feel there was way more character development in the OT, whereas here characters don't really have time to shine and be themselves. In the OT, you had the group of friends who'd follow each other through thick and thin, spend large amounts of time in the Falcon. With the new group, we're into the 2nd movie and still have no real idea about them or what kind of trajectory they're having. I found the scene where Rey and Poe meet for the first time to be rather odd because of this as there's no real precedent. It feels less like the characters know what they're fighting for, and more like they're pawns drawn into a rebellion.

There is a lot of backstory that is left untold which should have been told. Who is Snoke and how did he come to power? Why does he just sit in an empty room doing nothing? At least Palpatine gave himself a view. How big is the First order? What happened to the Jedi students that joined Kylo Ren? I'm sure these will be explained in novels. I shouldn't have to read additional books to get an understanding of some important details.

There really is. I feel like a lot of it just isn't well thought out. But unfortunately this new trilogy came from the camp that gave us Trek 2009, which in turn had a countdown comic book giving us a lot of backstory for Nero which should have been in the movie in the first place. It's small things like that that turn out to have huge downsides and it all adds up. The thing that gets me is that the star crawl assumes we know who he is. There are a number of theories I've seen, one of them being Tarkin, but I'm not sure if that matches up with anything from the OT.

[Scuzz]

The new movies do seem to encompass a larger world with more characters playing a role. And I would agree, the movies don't do a real good job in developing all of them. I though TLJ did a good job with Kylo Ren and Rey but it was done at the expense maybe of Finn and Po. And did we really need Rose?

[El Guapo]

Yeah, episodes VII and VIII collectively have too many characters. One of the reasons it's a shame that Rose stopped Finn's sacrifice. That whole thing was: (1) stupid; (2) the payoff of a 'romance' that they hadn't really built up in the movie; (3) stopped a stirring moment (the cowardly Finn building up the courage to give his life for a cause; and (4) kept us from trimming the character list.

[Rumpy]

Poe definitely. With Finn, we at least know he's a former stormtrooper who changed sides, but Poe? Who the heck is Poe? It's like he's a mix of Biggs and Luke, though they don't really know what to do with him as a central character. At least by the Empire Strikes Back, Luke had the trench run under his belt to be able to throw his weight around to make a difference. He'd built up some trust within the Rebellion. But Poe doesn't have any of that, which makes Poe's confrontation with Dern all that much more puzzling, because if he'd had more character development giving him some certain weight, that scene would be a lot more understandable, but he comes across as a frustrated lackey. You can tell he wants to make a difference, and he's a likeable character on the surface but all his yelling doesn't change the fact that he's pretty much a nobody.

When it comes down to it, this trilogy draws an awful lot from the past yet isn't creating a history of its own, and I feel it will be less memorable for it.

The funny thing about Rose is that I was constantly feeling like she would have been a better fit in Rogue One.

[El Guapo]

Poe definitely. With Finn, we at least know he's a former stormtrooper who changed sides, but Poe? Who the heck is Poe? It's like he's a mix of Biggs and Luke, though they don't really know what to do with him as a central character. At least by the Empire Strikes Back, Luke had the trench run under his belt to be able to throw his weight around to make a difference. He'd built up some trust within the Rebellion. But Poe doesn't have any of that, which makes Poe's confrontation with Dern all that much more puzzling, because if he'd had more character development giving him some certain weight, that scene would be a lot more understandable, but he comes across as a frustrated lackey. You can tell he wants to make a difference, and he's a likeable character on the surface but all his yelling doesn't change the fact that he's pretty much a nobody.

When it comes down to it, this trilogy draws an awful lot from the past yet isn't creating a history of its own, and I feel it will be less memorable for it.

The funny thing about Rose is that I was constantly feeling like she would have been a better fit in Rogue One.

I dunno, Poe got a fair amount of development in TFA and TLJ. TFA pretty clearly establishes that he's one of the best pilots in the Resistance, and a trusted confidant of Leia (hence getting sent to retrieve the map to Luke just before the start of the film). Since he's clearly connected to the top leadership in the Resistance (at least, to Leia), it makes some sense that he would feel emboldened to stand up to Dern. Also because he doesn't know her, he doesn't trust her.

Phasma's the worst example. They got a great actor to play her, but they just never fit her in anywhere useful to the movies.