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[NYT] 2 Navy Airmen and an Object That ‘Accelerated Like Nothing I’ve Ever Seen’

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Re: [NYT] 2 Navy Airmen and an Object That ‘Accelerated Like Nothing I’ve Ever Seen’

Post by RunningMn9 »

Isgrimnur wrote:
Thu Dec 21, 2017 10:44 am
Wiki
An exhaust plume contributes a significant infrared signature. The F-117 reduces IR signature with a non-circular tail pipe (a slit shape) to minimize the exhaust cross-sectional volume and maximize the mixing of hot exhaust with cool ambient air.
Yes. The key element there is "minimize". When you are close enough to be in visual contact with an F-117, the IR signature will most certainly show up on FLIR. You can minimize the fact that you are riding a giant, burning pile of fuel and using the exhaust to generate thrust. You cannot hide it.

In the video we are talking about, there is *no* IR signature relative to the propulsion.
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Re: [NYT] 2 Navy Airmen and an Object That ‘Accelerated Like Nothing I’ve Ever Seen’

Post by Isgrimnur »

I’m sure you’ll be able to provide some footage or specs to back up that assertion, because I can’t find any, and I suspect that the IR detection distance on the F-117 is still classified.

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Re: [NYT] 2 Navy Airmen and an Object That ‘Accelerated Like Nothing I’ve Ever Seen’

Post by Grifman »

Holman wrote:
Thu Dec 21, 2017 11:50 am
The usual UFO encounter description is suspicious to me because it's always "Like our planes but shinier/faster/more maneuverable!"

It reminds me of the ways previous civilizations have always described gods and angels and demons: "Just like us but more powerful/beautiful/horrifying!" It's hard not to see the usual pattern by which we project human-shaped meaning onto our mysteries, only in the UFO case we do it with technology rather than personhood because we've become so technologically oriented in our approach to the world.

I know I'm hitting the skepticism hard here. I'm still rather annoyed at the original NYT's presentation of just the pilots' account with no apparent follow-up reporting. Hopefully that will be rectified.
I don't understand your objection. All people can do is compare something they've seen/heard/experienced to something they already have seen/heard/experienced - that's just common sense. Just think of the questions that people ask - What did it look like? What did it sound like? What did it move like? Etc. That doesn't make an account any less credible. I'm not saying these are aliens by any means, but I don't see this as a reason to discount this account.
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Re: [NYT] 2 Navy Airmen and an Object That ‘Accelerated Like Nothing I’ve Ever Seen’

Post by RunningMn9 »

Holman wrote:
Thu Dec 21, 2017 11:50 am
I know I'm hitting the skepticism hard here. I'm still rather annoyed at the original NYT's presentation of just the pilots' account with no apparent follow-up reporting. Hopefully that will be rectified.
You *should* be hitting the skepticism hard.

I would keep in mind though that we have very little choice when dealing with UFOs but to compare them to our technology. They are flying objects. Necessarily we are going to compare/contrast them with our flying objects. The ones that will stand out will necessarily be the flying objects that are doing flying things that we can't do, or that we don't believe are possible to do.

Of course, the first thing to consider there is that we can do things that the observer doesn't know that we can do. If the F/A-18 pilots aren't aware of a test drone that has significantly superior flight characteristics to what they are flying, then the encounter will stand out to them, and we will all understand why.

If we were testing some new thing, obviously these pilots wouldn't know anything about it.

However - where it gets interesting is when the exhibited behaviors represent real violations of things we thought we knew. The ability to rotate orientation without any chance to your velocity (speed + direction)? Based on literally everything we know about powered flight, that is impossible. *All* of our flying objects move in a direction because of thrust in the opposite direction. To completely change orientation without changing the direction of thrust would require the ability to thrust in any direction, regardless of orientation. That would be like a car that can continue down the highway at 80 mph, while it's spinning in circles. We know that this can only happen to some degree when the method of thrust (friction between tire and ground) stops being applied (i.e. hydroplaning).

The two things that stand out to me from the video (regardless of the articles around it) is the lack of heat signature regarding thrust, and the fact that it seems to radically alter orientation without changing velocity (most notably direction). I don't see how that's possible. Which leaves two possibilities:

1) What I see in the video is not actually what's happening, despite what I see being seen/confirmed by the pilots.
2) What I believe is possible is wrong.

I would say that #1 is the most probably explanation.
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Re: [NYT] 2 Navy Airmen and an Object That ‘Accelerated Like Nothing I’ve Ever Seen’

Post by Holman »

Grifman wrote:
Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:04 pm
Holman wrote:
Thu Dec 21, 2017 11:50 am
The usual UFO encounter description is suspicious to me because it's always "Like our planes but shinier/faster/more maneuverable!"

It reminds me of the ways previous civilizations have always described gods and angels and demons: "Just like us but more powerful/beautiful/horrifying!" It's hard not to see the usual pattern by which we project human-shaped meaning onto our mysteries, only in the UFO case we do it with technology rather than personhood because we've become so technologically oriented in our approach to the world.

I know I'm hitting the skepticism hard here. I'm still rather annoyed at the original NYT's presentation of just the pilots' account with no apparent follow-up reporting. Hopefully that will be rectified.
I don't understand your objection. All people can do is compare something they've seen/heard/experienced to something they already have seen/heard/experienced - that's just common sense. Just think of the questions that people ask - What did it look like? What did it sound like? What did it move like? Etc. That doesn't make an account any less credible. I'm not saying these are aliens by any means, but I don't see this as a reason to discount this account.
Putting it a little differently:

I think we have a propensity to fit unexplained phenomena into patterns based on what we know and what we want to see. This has so often been the case in the past (UFOs, miracles, so-called psychic and supernatural phenomena, etc) that it's smart to guess first that we're doing it again now.

After all, unless they're from this solar system, visiting aliens must possess technology wholly unconstrained not only by acceleration and heat-signatures but by our current understanding of time and space itself. Why would they fly around in vessels better but still analogous to our current jets?

I suppose it's worth noting that almost no one (here but especially on the internet generally) has experienced *anything* of the event we're all talking about. We have what amounts to a human-interest newspaper story apparently corroborated by FLIR footage. How many people discussing this are really informed enough about that kind of equipment to rule out some kind of detection error or bug or what have you?
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Re: [NYT] 2 Navy Airmen and an Object That ‘Accelerated Like Nothing I’ve Ever Seen’

Post by LawBeefaroni »

Did they have visual on this thing? If it was only radar and camera, someone could have just hacked their instruments. Someone being another US branch or department.
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Re: [NYT] 2 Navy Airmen and an Object That ‘Accelerated Like Nothing I’ve Ever Seen’

Post by Anonymous Bosch »

RunningMn9 wrote:
Thu Dec 21, 2017 9:21 am
Isgrimnur wrote:
Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:04 am
I would expect, but I'm not familiar with how, say, the F-117 appears on thermal.
On thermal? It appears like a heat plume. The stealth capability is for radar, it doesn't hide the heat signature from the exhaust. They are designed to hide the source, but if you are propelled by burning shit, you can't hide that IR signature. And clearly this wasn't a stealth craft, since the F/A-18 pilots were directed to the object because it showed up on radar.
FWIW, Aviation Week has a description of how the F-117 limits IR detectability:
F-117 Nighthawk

The F-117A Nighthawk was the first U.S. aircraft to use low-observability as its primary means of survivability. The rear of the aircraft sloped from an apex above the cockpit into a broad, flat feature dubbed the “platypus.” The engine exhaust flattened to thin slots 4-6-in. deep and 5-ft. wide, divided horizontally into about a dozen channels. The lower fuselage terminated in a lip extending 8 in. past the exhaust at a slightly upward angle. This was covered in “heat-reflecting” tiles that were cooled by bypass air from the engines. The platypus shielded the hot metal parts while the flattened plume reduced IR intensity from the side and accelerated mixing with ambient air. The extended lip masked the exhaust slot and first 8 in. of plume from below, while the low-emissivity tiles limited IR absorption and emission.

Improvements in infrared (IR) detection technology have made it possible for IR search-and-track systems and IR-guided missiles to acquire aircraft at increasingly long distances. The technology poses a growing threat to aircraft that only suppress their radar signatures. Therefore, in State of Stealth, Part 5, Aviation Week takes a deep dive into the IR side of low-observability. Among the most important factors in limiting an aircraft’s IR detectability is addressing the large signatures created by the engines’ hot part, nozzles and exhaust plumes. In this gallery, we examine the approaches to reducing engine and plume IR signatures that have been taken on the F-117, B-2, F-22 and F-35.
Of course, there's a world of difference between reducing engine and plume signatures and eliminating them completely (all the moreso in a wingless Tic Tac -shaped vehicle)
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Re: [NYT] 2 Navy Airmen and an Object That ‘Accelerated Like Nothing I’ve Ever Seen’

Post by RunningMn9 »

Anonymous Bosch wrote:
Thu Dec 21, 2017 1:48 pm
Of course, there's a world of difference between reducing engine and plume signatures and eliminating them completely (all the moreso in a wingless Tic Tac -shaped vehicle)
Yeah, if you've ever seen the ass-end of an F-117 with the engines on, there's no confusion about whether there is a heat signature. :)

What they are trying to do is mask the source of the heat signature, because that's what stands out for heat-seeking things. Look at the back end of an F-14 or F-15. See those giant, glowing engines? That's the target for IR-based weapons. With the F-117, there is no intense heat signature like that. However, there is still a heat signature. Because there has to be - you are igniting a shit ton of fuel and exhausting that hot gas out the back end to make you go forward. The only way to prevent a heat signature would be to exhaust cold air. Which is pretty hard to do when you are igniting a shit ton of fuel.

Anyway, the point I am trying to make as Isg tries to drag me down into a rabbit hole is that stealth aircraft have technologies to limit ground-based radar and infrared tracking capability. Their "stealth capabilities" aren't designed to really be "stealthy" when close enough for visual contact, or close enough for a FLIR camera to lock on and track you.

In the video here, the object itself is producing heat (which is why it shows up and is being tracked by the camera). What's curious is that there is no exhaust heat. None at all.

Which is exactly what I would expect if a bug was trapped in the FLIR camera pod. :)
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Re: [NYT] 2 Navy Airmen and an Object That ‘Accelerated Like Nothing I’ve Ever Seen’

Post by Anonymous Bosch »

LawBeefaroni wrote:
Thu Dec 21, 2017 1:20 pm
Did they have visual on this thing? If it was only radar and camera, someone could have just hacked their instruments. Someone being another US branch or department.
Very much so. This write-up from a fellow fighter pilot provides a more detailed description.
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Re: [NYT] 2 Navy Airmen and an Object That ‘Accelerated Like Nothing I’ve Ever Seen’

Post by msduncan »

RunningMn9 wrote:
Thu Dec 21, 2017 2:22 pm
Anonymous Bosch wrote:
Thu Dec 21, 2017 1:48 pm
Of course, there's a world of difference between reducing engine and plume signatures and eliminating them completely (all the moreso in a wingless Tic Tac -shaped vehicle)
Yeah, if you've ever seen the ass-end of an F-117 with the engines on, there's no confusion about whether there is a heat signature. :)

What they are trying to do is mask the source of the heat signature, because that's what stands out for heat-seeking things. Look at the back end of an F-14 or F-15. See those giant, glowing engines? That's the target for IR-based weapons. With the F-117, there is no intense heat signature like that. However, there is still a heat signature. Because there has to be - you are igniting a shit ton of fuel and exhausting that hot gas out the back end to make you go forward. The only way to prevent a heat signature would be to exhaust cold air. Which is pretty hard to do when you are igniting a shit ton of fuel.

Anyway, the point I am trying to make as Isg tries to drag me down into a rabbit hole is that stealth aircraft have technologies to limit ground-based radar and infrared tracking capability. Their "stealth capabilities" aren't designed to really be "stealthy" when close enough for visual contact, or close enough for a FLIR camera to lock on and track you.

In the video here, the object itself is producing heat (which is why it shows up and is being tracked by the camera). What's curious is that there is no exhaust heat. None at all.

Which is exactly what I would expect if a bug was trapped in the FLIR camera pod. :)
True, but didn't multiple pilots from different aircraft have eyes on it? It was also being corroborated by detection systems on the ground and radar systems in the friendly aircraft?

In other words something(s) was there. Not just a bug in a lens,
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Re: [NYT] 2 Navy Airmen and an Object That ‘Accelerated Like Nothing I’ve Ever Seen’

Post by RunningMn9 »

Yes, that is the hole in my bug theory. 16 pairs of human eyeballs saw the object as well. It clearly wasn’t a bug in the FLIR pod. It would just be amusing if it was all because of a bug trapped in the camera pod.


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Re: [NYT] 2 Navy Airmen and an Object That ‘Accelerated Like Nothing I’ve Ever Seen’

Post by Holman »

RunningMn9 wrote:
Thu Dec 21, 2017 9:05 pm
Yes, that is the hole in my bug theory. 16 pairs of human eyeballs saw the object as well. It clearly wasn’t a bug in the FLIR pod. It would just be amusing if it was all because of a bug trapped in the camera pod.
If that's the case, I want journalism that interviews all 16 witnesses as well as the radar operators and everyone else involved. I want to hear whether things like this have happened before and whether they've met with plausible explanations other than aliens.

Right now it all feels still too shakily speculative.
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Re: [NYT] 2 Navy Airmen and an Object That ‘Accelerated Like Nothing I’ve Ever Seen’

Post by Kraken »

Remember that at one point a pilot remarks "Whoa, there's a whole fleet of them."

This is all really intriguing stuff. Putting known physics aside for a moment, these objects' behavior (changing orientation without changing trajectory, hovering without energy signatures) could be explained with some kind of antigravity bubbles.

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Re: [NYT] 2 Navy Airmen and an Object That ‘Accelerated Like Nothing I’ve Ever Seen’

Post by RunningMn9 »

Holman - you keep mentioning aliens. I don’t recall the NYT ever mentioning aliens. They mentioned UFO, because that’s what it was and still is.

The incident happened 13 years ago. Interviewing all of the witnesses might not have been practical or possible.


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Re: [NYT] 2 Navy Airmen and an Object That ‘Accelerated Like Nothing I’ve Ever Seen’

Post by Holman »

RunningMn9 wrote:
Thu Dec 21, 2017 9:46 pm
Holman - you keep mentioning aliens. I don’t recall the NYT ever mentioning aliens. They mentioned UFO, because that’s what it was and still is.
The prevailing meme internet-wide is "OMG the Pentagon knows about the aliens and these videos prove it!"

That's what I'm responding to.
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Re: [NYT] 2 Navy Airmen and an Object That ‘Accelerated Like Nothing I’ve Ever Seen’

Post by Grifman »

Holman wrote:
Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:34 pm
I think we have a propensity to fit unexplained phenomena into patterns based on what we know and what we want to see. This has so often been the case in the past (UFOs, miracles, so-called psychic and supernatural phenomena, etc) that it's smart to guess first that we're doing it again now.
Yet, often time when such unexplained items are finally explained, they end up fitting existing patterns. So I'm still not sure what your point is here. The whole point of this is that it does not fit existing patterns which is why it is such a mystery.
After all, unless they're from this solar system, visiting aliens must possess technology wholly unconstrained not only by acceleration and heat-signatures but by our current understanding of time and space itself. Why would they fly around in vessels better but still analogous to our current jets?
That seems to be the point - they DON'T fit existing patterns. The UFO changed moved at extreme speed and changed direction almost instantaneously. This is not analogous to our current jets at all and I quote:
“I have no idea what I saw,” Commander Fravor replied to the pilot. “It had no plumes, wings or rotors and outran our F-18s.”
I suppose it's worth noting that almost no one (here but especially on the internet generally) has experienced *anything* of the event we're all talking about. We have what amounts to a human-interest newspaper story apparently corroborated by FLIR footage. How many people discussing this are really informed enough about that kind of equipment to rule out some kind of detection error or bug or what have you?
None of us have that experience but I would argue that the fighter pilots and radar techs involved have the experience, and there is no hint in the article of any equipment issues on either the jets or the radar station. You'd have to have the exact same failures/glitches, each jet, and the radar station all at the same time. What are the odds of that? And of course this also ignores the eye witness testimony.
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Re: [NYT] 2 Navy Airmen and an Object That ‘Accelerated Like Nothing I’ve Ever Seen’

Post by Holman »

I guess my whole point comes down to:

1) It appears something inexplicable by modern tech has happened, a UFO;
2) Appearances (especially as filtered through layers of witness and partial reporting) don't always tell the whole story;
3) Skepticism is justified even when you have a FLIR video.

Again, I'm responding more to hyperbolic claims that I've seen elsewhere online than to the much more reasonable discussion here.
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Re: [NYT] 2 Navy Airmen and an Object That ‘Accelerated Like Nothing I’ve Ever Seen’

Post by Punisher »

Unagi wrote:
Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:50 am
I suppose the other option is that an alien lifeform from light-years away, has made it's way here to observe 'undetected' and really up-close and personal without any contact at all, because that's likely how that would go down.
It's just some alien lifeform that was not apprehended because they were just too darn fast, and yet they were really wise so didn't want to actually interfere with us by coming down and, like making fly-byes as they obverved us...

That makes a whole lot of sense. I bet that's how we discover life outside of earth... their "I bet I can out-fly you" approach to xeno-communications and relationships between intergalactic species.
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Re: [NYT] 2 Navy Airmen and an Object That ‘Accelerated Like Nothing I’ve Ever Seen’

Post by Punisher »

LawBeefaroni wrote:
Thu Dec 21, 2017 1:20 pm
Did they have visual on this thing? If it was only radar and camera, someone could have just hacked their instruments. Someone being another US branch or department.
I would seriously doubt that there is a way to hijack the equipment on a fighter jet remotely... That would seem to be a HUGE design flaw..
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Re: [NYT] 2 Navy Airmen and an Object That ‘Accelerated Like Nothing I’ve Ever Seen’

Post by Punisher »

RunningMn9 wrote:
Thu Dec 21, 2017 9:05 pm
Yes, that is the hole in my bug theory. 16 pairs of human eyeballs saw the object as well. It clearly wasn’t a bug in the FLIR pod. It would just be amusing if it was all because of a bug trapped in the camera pod.
Maybe it was just a HUGE bug?
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Re: [NYT] 2 Navy Airmen and an Object That ‘Accelerated Like Nothing I’ve Ever Seen’

Post by Rip »

I'll just toss this one on the pile.

http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/18 ... scrambling

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Re: [NYT] 2 Navy Airmen and an Object That ‘Accelerated Like Nothing I’ve Ever Seen’

Post by Carpet_pissr »

I feel like we should be talking about this more for some reason:

We're so distracted by the orange menace that we are failing to notice the big green aliens have landed in our backyard. ZAP!!

GOFAST video that successfully tracks a UFO after a couple of failed attempts:
https://coi.tothestarsacademy.com/2015-go-fast-footage/

and even more disconcerting:

https://www.usatoday.com/videos/news/20 ... 108755554/



Chris Mellon, a TTSA advisor and former deputy assistant secretary of defense for intelligence in the Clinton and George W. Bush administrations, slammed what he said was the lack of research into what could be behind these videos in an op-ed published Friday in the Washington Post.

"We have no idea what’s behind these weird incidents because we’re not investigating," Mellon wrote.

"Nobody wants to be 'the alien guy' in the national security bureaucracy; nobody wants to be ridiculed or sidelined for drawing attention to the issue," he added. "This is true up and down the chain of command, and it is a serious and recurring impediment to progress."

Last December, retired U.S. Navy Cmdr. David Fravor told ABC News that what he believes what he witnessed during a routine training mission on Nov. 14, 2004, "was not from this world."

He continued: "I'm not crazy, haven't been drinking. It was — after 18 years of flying, I've seen pretty much about everything that I can see in that realm, and this was nothing close."

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Re: [NYT] 2 Navy Airmen and an Object That ‘Accelerated Like Nothing I’ve Ever Seen’

Post by Drazzil »

Carpet_pissr wrote:
Mon Mar 12, 2018 2:06 pm
I feel like we should be talking about this more for some reason:

We're so distracted by the orange menace that we are failing to notice the big green aliens have landed in our backyard. ZAP!!

GOFAST video that successfully tracks a UFO after a couple of failed attempts:
https://coi.tothestarsacademy.com/2015-go-fast-footage/

and even more disconcerting:

https://www.usatoday.com/videos/news/20 ... 108755554/



Chris Mellon, a TTSA advisor and former deputy assistant secretary of defense for intelligence in the Clinton and George W. Bush administrations, slammed what he said was the lack of research into what could be behind these videos in an op-ed published Friday in the Washington Post.

"We have no idea what’s behind these weird incidents because we’re not investigating," Mellon wrote.

"Nobody wants to be 'the alien guy' in the national security bureaucracy; nobody wants to be ridiculed or sidelined for drawing attention to the issue," he added. "This is true up and down the chain of command, and it is a serious and recurring impediment to progress."

Last December, retired U.S. Navy Cmdr. David Fravor told ABC News that what he believes what he witnessed during a routine training mission on Nov. 14, 2004, "was not from this world."

He continued: "I'm not crazy, haven't been drinking. It was — after 18 years of flying, I've seen pretty much about everything that I can see in that realm, and this was nothing close."
https://www.armytimes.com/off-duty/mili ... echnology/

I think the increased contact with UFO's is just aliens measuring the drapes for when we kill ourselves. If the aliens have enough technology to travel here, the chances are that planets that can support life are extremely rare. The aliens can probabally reverse whatever damage we do to the biosphere and move right in after we go extinct.
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Re: [NYT] 2 Navy Airmen and an Object That ‘Accelerated Like Nothing I’ve Ever Seen’

Post by Kraken »

Except astronomers tell us that habitable planets are probably not so rare. We've already found 2-3 rocky worlds in their Goldilocks zones within a few hundred light years of the sun, and we've barely started looking; there are most likely billions in the Milky Way. Earthlike worlds might still prove to be rare, but alien lifeforms that evolved there would consider their homes to be as comfy as we find our little planet.

Habitable worlds aside, we still don't know if life is unique to Earth, common throughout the galaxy, or somewhere in between. Finding life within our own solar system would shed some light on that question and could happen within the next couple of decades. Personally, I think the universe is infested with life.

Whether that life ever evolves self-aware intelligence, and whether such intelligence necessarily leads to technology, are other questions. But now we're getting close to the Fermi Paradox, which is more interesting to me. Here's a decent primer if you're unfamiliar.

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Re: [NYT] 2 Navy Airmen and an Object That ‘Accelerated Like Nothing I’ve Ever Seen’

Post by Daehawk »

Anyone who finds us and can get to us will probably just kick our ass anyways.
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Re: [NYT] 2 Navy Airmen and an Object That ‘Accelerated Like Nothing I’ve Ever Seen’

Post by Holman »

Drazzil wrote:
Thu Oct 31, 2019 7:36 pm
I think the increased contact with UFO's is just aliens measuring the drapes for when we kill ourselves. If the aliens have enough technology to travel here, the chances are that planets that can support life are extremely rare. The aliens can probabally reverse whatever damage we do to the biosphere and move right in after we go extinct.
Just to piggyback on this comment for something I always wonder about intelligent alien life: why do they need planets at all?

Likewise, why would/will we?

Hear me out. If we (or some other species) achieve the technology and power to travel to distant suns on a useful time-scale, we've probably also achieved the technology and power to build anything we want out of anything we want. If that's the case, why bother finding fairly-decent habitable planets at all? Why not just bust up asteroids and moons and whatever we like to create space habitats to our exacting specifications?

Where would you rather live:

1) a "habitable" Earth-like world that works because it's about 85% right (but still has a dim red sun and too much radiation and atmosphere that smells like gasoline and temperatures within the normal range for Arctic tundra),

or

2) a space habitat that's basically the Garden of Eden?

I think the model of "finding habitable planets" may be a relic of the previous age of discovery. ("What's on the other side of the ocean?") Rather than sailing out to find new continents, we're probably going to wind up building them ourselves.
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Re: [NYT] 2 Navy Airmen and an Object That ‘Accelerated Like Nothing I’ve Ever Seen’

Post by LawBeefaroni »

Vacation property.
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Re: [NYT] 2 Navy Airmen and an Object That ‘Accelerated Like Nothing I’ve Ever Seen’

Post by Drazzil »

Holman wrote:
Fri Nov 01, 2019 11:05 am
Drazzil wrote:
Thu Oct 31, 2019 7:36 pm
I think the increased contact with UFO's is just aliens measuring the drapes for when we kill ourselves. If the aliens have enough technology to travel here, the chances are that planets that can support life are extremely rare. The aliens can probabally reverse whatever damage we do to the biosphere and move right in after we go extinct.
Just to piggyback on this comment for something I always wonder about intelligent alien life: why do they need planets at all?

Likewise, why would/will we?

Hear me out. If we (or some other species) achieve the technology and power to travel to distant suns on a useful time-scale, we've probably also achieved the technology and power to build anything we want out of anything we want. If that's the case, why bother finding fairly-decent habitable planets at all? Why not just bust up asteroids and moons and whatever we like to create space habitats to our exacting specifications?

Where would you rather live:

1) a "habitable" Earth-like world that works because it's about 85% right (but still has a dim red sun and too much radiation and atmosphere that smells like gasoline and temperatures within the normal range for Arctic tundra),

or

2) a space habitat that's basically the Garden of Eden?

I think the model of "finding habitable planets" may be a relic of the previous age of discovery. ("What's on the other side of the ocean?") Rather than sailing out to find new continents, we're probably going to wind up building them ourselves.
I was thinking about that too. The conclusion I came to is that there must be something planets can provide that superstructures can't. Mineral extraction. Atmosphere or the like. Also I don't believe stable inhabitable planets are common. Maybe other planets while "M class" have other things going against them. Prone to colliding with other hazards or some extraterrestrial stuff going on thats toxic to life.

Thus I believe the aliens are measuring the drapes as it were.
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Re: [NYT] 2 Navy Airmen and an Object That ‘Accelerated Like Nothing I’ve Ever Seen’

Post by Formix »

Drazzil wrote:
Fri Nov 01, 2019 2:25 pm
Holman wrote:
Fri Nov 01, 2019 11:05 am
Drazzil wrote:
Thu Oct 31, 2019 7:36 pm
I think the increased contact with UFO's is just aliens measuring the drapes for when we kill ourselves. If the aliens have enough technology to travel here, the chances are that planets that can support life are extremely rare. The aliens can probabally reverse whatever damage we do to the biosphere and move right in after we go extinct.
Just to piggyback on this comment for something I always wonder about intelligent alien life: why do they need planets at all?

Likewise, why would/will we?

Hear me out. If we (or some other species) achieve the technology and power to travel to distant suns on a useful time-scale, we've probably also achieved the technology and power to build anything we want out of anything we want. If that's the case, why bother finding fairly-decent habitable planets at all? Why not just bust up asteroids and moons and whatever we like to create space habitats to our exacting specifications?

Where would you rather live:

1) a "habitable" Earth-like world that works because it's about 85% right (but still has a dim red sun and too much radiation and atmosphere that smells like gasoline and temperatures within the normal range for Arctic tundra),

or

2) a space habitat that's basically the Garden of Eden?

I think the model of "finding habitable planets" may be a relic of the previous age of discovery. ("What's on the other side of the ocean?") Rather than sailing out to find new continents, we're probably going to wind up building them ourselves.
I was thinking about that too. The conclusion I came to is that there must be something planets can provide that superstructures can't. Mineral extraction. Atmosphere or the like. Also I don't believe stable inhabitable planets are common. Maybe other planets while "M class" have other things going against them. Prone to colliding with other hazards or some extraterrestrial stuff going on thats toxic to life.

Thus I believe the aliens are measuring the drapes as it were.
Well, if they can build vehicles and structures capable of surviving underwater, there's a lot of available real estate. Anyone else curious about what might be released by the Pentagon? https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/23/us/p ... -navy.html

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Re: [NYT] 2 Navy Airmen and an Object That ‘Accelerated Like Nothing I’ve Ever Seen’

Post by Daehawk »

At this time just the known galaxies in our universe is 200 billion. Theres plenty of nice places out there. Getting there is the problem.
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Re: [NYT] 2 Navy Airmen and an Object That ‘Accelerated Like Nothing I’ve Ever Seen’

Post by Anonymous Bosch »

Daehawk wrote:
Mon Jul 27, 2020 9:13 am
At this time just the known galaxies in our universe is 200 billion. Theres plenty of nice places out there. Getting there is the problem.
Apparently not, if the reported retrievals of “off-world vehicles not made on this earth” are accurate.
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Re: [NYT] 2 Navy Airmen and an Object That ‘Accelerated Like Nothing I’ve Ever Seen’

Post by Holman »

Formix wrote:
Mon Jul 27, 2020 5:34 am
Anyone else curious about what might be released by the Pentagon? https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/23/us/p ... -navy.html
That story erupted and then seemed to just fizzle. Apparently 2020 is such a disaster that news of alien technology just doesn't make a dent.

I remain skeptical, although the NYT's reporting here raises questions:
Mr. Davis, who now works for Aerospace Corporation, a defense contractor, said he gave a classified briefing to a Defense Department agency as recently as March about retrievals from “off-world vehicles not made on this earth.”

Mr. Davis said he also gave classified briefings on retrievals of unexplained objects to staff members of the Senate Armed Services Committee on Oct. 21, 2019, and to staff members of the Senate Intelligence Committee two days later.
That's awfully specifically sourced reporting. Presumably the schedule of the Senate Armed Services Committee is independently verifiable, and presumably Aerospace Corporation cares enough about its reputation to push back if they think this is misquoted.
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