[NFL] Cheerleaders . . . Just end it.

[Skinypupy]

Most of these “job” are really jobs. People aren’t professional cheerleaders. It’s a weekend gig mostly for funsies. It’s not a reason to not treat them like humans though.

That’s the part that annoys the shit out of me when talking to some people. “They can just quit if they don’t like it.” Yes, that’s true (although that’s harder to do when trapped in Costa Rica). That’s still not an excuse for a company to dehumanize it’s employees.

This. My understanding is that even professional cheerleaders are part time. Professional dancers are all over the place just watch a commercial, musical, music video, amusement park, ballet, or college campus.

NFL cheerleaders, while I'm sure there's a significant venn crossover, are cheerleaders as a side gig. They're committed women following a depth of tradition and skill ingrained in innumerable communities around the country (or at least in the south). It's just part of life, teams need cheerleaders and it's a validating and "respected" :/ position. Sure we can cultural tell them to quit it. But the problem at hand is their exploitation, not their need for a job.

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Mrs. Skinypupy has danced on two professional companies and taught at multiple dance studios over the past 22 years. I can confirm with 100% certainty that there is ZERO money in that profession. The only dancers who actually make money are the top 1% who are good enough to be in a professional touring company, and a few owners of very large dance studios. 99% of them (and I'd likely include professional cheerleaders in that number) are just dancing/cheering because they love it...although probably less so when they're forced to be escorts.

[Combustible Lemur]

Most of these “job” are really jobs. People aren’t professional cheerleaders. It’s a weekend gig mostly for funsies. It’s not a reason to not treat them like humans though.

That’s the part that annoys the shit out of me when talking to some people. “They can just quit if they don’t like it.” Yes, that’s true (although that’s harder to do when trapped in Costa Rica). That’s still not an excuse for a company to dehumanize it’s employees.

This. My understanding is that even professional cheerleaders are part time. Professional dancers are all over the place just watch a commercial, musical, music video, amusement park, ballet, or college campus.

NFL cheerleaders, while I'm sure there's a significant venn crossover, are cheerleaders as a side gig. They're committed women following a depth of tradition and skill ingrained in innumerable communities around the country (or at least in the south). It's just part of life, teams need cheerleaders and it's a validating and "respected" :/ position. Sure we can cultural tell them to quit it. But the problem at hand is their exploitation, not their need for a job.

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Mrs. Skinypupy has danced on two professional companies and taught at multiple dance studios over the past 22 years. I can confirm with 100% certainty that there is ZERO money in that profession. The only dancers who actually make money are the top 1% who are good enough to be in a professional touring company, and a few owners of very large dance studios. 99% of them (and I'd likely include professional cheerleaders in that number) are just dancing/cheering because they love it...although probably less so when they're forced to be escorts.

Side note, does Mrs skinypupy like teenagers? High-school dance teachers in Texas are a full time gig with solid pay and great benefits.

Also, +1 to the 1 percent thing for any Performance art. And 1percent is generous.

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[gameoverman]

Well, if you love to do something so much you're willing to do the work 'for fun' then yeah, that's going to be something the people you're working for will exploit. Some might not exploit it that much, maybe make you wear a skimpy outfit. Others will have you working as an escort. Employers will exploit employees they actually have to pay, there's no reason to think they aren't going to exploit the ones who compete for non paying work.

If it was up to me I'd create some kind of show to run concurrently with the NFL season, and it'd feature the cheerleaders. It would be on as many online streaming services as possible. In that way I could pay them a respectable amount of money and yet still make money off them and the fans get to see cheerleaders 24/7 if they want. Win/win for everyone.

[Fitzy]

I trust an organization called the "Redskins" to do a fully fair internal review

Oh please

[Skinypupy]

Side note, does Mrs skinypupy like teenagers? High-school dance teachers in Texas are a full time gig with solid pay and great benefits.

She can't do that right now because the Wonder Twins 4.11 are still at home, but might look at that option once they're in school. The one year she made any money at all was the year she ran the drill team for a middle school. Even then, it was minimal ($1,500/year, I think), required a ton of crazy hours, and the parents made her life a living hell. We'll see if she wants to dive back into that world again. (seriously, dance moms are fucking insane)

The problem is that the majority of the schools in Utah pay their dance team instructors a minimal stipend as a contract employee with no benefits. And the stipend becomes a ridiculously low per hour rate when you factor in the amount of time they actually spend. There's a few tenured positions who are a full time equivalent, but those are few and far between and require far more experience at that level than she has.

Utah education $$ vs. Texas education $$, I suppose.

[RunningMn9]

Maybe he meant actual teacher? Not just dance team instructor. High schools here in NJ have dance teachers sometimes too.

[em2nought]

Thread's definitely making Mike Rowe's point for him regarding skilled trades vs college for some.
http://profoundlydisconnected.com/foundation/

[LordMortis]

A union would be the end of cheerleaders. Unlike most unionized workers, the company doesn't need their talent. A union would make them more trouble than they would be worth.

If that is the case then maybe it is time to re-evaluate the whole thing. (not for or against, but the suggestion is that having the cheerleaders act as a group to look out for the cheerleaders is that bad (or PITA) for ownership, then it feels like something is off)

My daughter is friends with a cheerleader on the Eagles. It’s just something she does while in college (at some philly dance academy or something).


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Your daughter is old enough to be friends with professional cheerleaders making their way through college? Aren't you kids just a little bit older than babies, somewhere a couple years, maybe a few, just past learning to find their "there is no one right way to learn" by now?

[RunningMn9]

RunningBoy1 will turn 17 in a few weeks. RunningGirl1 turns 15 on Saturday. We are old AF.

Edit to add: my daughter dances at the same studio as the girl, who graduated high school last year. They aren’t besties, but they know each other and all the younger girls looked up to her (she’s an amazing dancer).

[Jeff V]

At least some of them spend a lot of time working various charitable events and corporate functions -- perhaps these sort of activities does make it a more viable full-time job?

[El Guapo]

A union would be the end of cheerleaders. Unlike most unionized workers, the company doesn't need their talent. A union would make them more trouble than they would be worth.

If that is the case then maybe it is time to re-evaluate the whole thing. (not for or against, but the suggestion is that having the cheerleaders act as a group to look out for the cheerleaders is that bad (or PITA) for ownership, then it feels like something is off)

My daughter is friends with a cheerleader on the Eagles. It’s just something she does while in college (at some philly dance academy or something).


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Your daughter is old enough to be friends with professional cheerleaders making their way through college? Aren't you kids just a little bit older than babies, somewhere a couple years, maybe a few, just past learning to find their "there is no one right way to learn" by now?

I just find it hard to believe that cheerleaders aren't worth substantially more to the NFL teams than they are paying them. NFL teams don't 'need' them by any means (as demonstrated by the significant minority of teams with no cheerleaders), but for those teams that do - it's not like the NFL is short on cash these days.

[McNutt]

You don't pay for things you don't have to. Right now cheerleaders make very little money and there are still a ton of ladies lining up to take the job. You could pay them more just to be nice, but that's not good business.

Of course that doesn't mean you can mistreat them.

[El Guapo]

You don't pay for things you don't have to. Right now cheerleaders make very little money and there are still a ton of ladies lining up to take the job. You could pay them more just to be nice, but that's not good business.

Of course that doesn't mean you can mistreat them.

Right, my point is about whether NFL teams would just disband their cheerleading squads if they unionized (or if they were otherwise compelled to pay them more). Not that I would rule that out (I assume a couple owners at least would do that just out of spite), but at the end of the day I assume that if they had to pay them more, they would choose to do that over disbanding them on average (at least, that that would be in their self-interest).

[McNutt]

I don't think the decision to get rid of them if they unionize would be done out of spite. It would just be a business decision. What are they asking for vs what are they worth? For the most part they aren't worth that much to the team, which is why teams have been able to get them for such a pittance. If they unionize they become a headache and I don't imagine many owners think cheerleaders are worth the headache.

[Scuzz]

Well, if you love to do something so much you're willing to do the work 'for fun' then yeah, that's going to be something the people you're working for will exploit. Some might not exploit it that much, maybe make you wear a skimpy outfit. Others will have you working as an escort. Employers will exploit employees they actually have to pay, there's no reason to think they aren't going to exploit the ones who compete for non paying work.

If it was up to me I'd create some kind of show to run concurrently with the NFL season, and it'd feature the cheerleaders. It would be on as many online streaming services as possible. In that way I could pay them a respectable amount of money and yet still make money off them and the fans get to see cheerleaders 24/7 if they want. Win/win for everyone.

There was at one time a reality show based on the Dallas Cowboy cheerleaders, but I am sure they didn't get much of the money from it.

[El Guapo]

I don't think the decision to get rid of them if they unionize would be done out of spite. It would just be a business decision. What are they asking for vs what are they worth? For the most part they aren't worth that much to the team, which is why teams have been able to get them for such a pittance. If they unionize they become a headache and I don't imagine many owners think cheerleaders are worth the headache.

I don't think that the fact that they're paid virtually nothing is evidence that they're not worth much to the team. I think it's evidence that the cheerleaders each have virtually no bargaining power. Also, because they're compensated with virtually nothing (as I understand it) there seems like there must be room to increase their compensation before you hit the point at which you are exceeding their benefit to the team.

Like, the Dallas Cowboys couldn't afford to paid their cheerleaders a couple thousand more a year? That's really beyond the means and the worth of the cheerleaders to the team?

[McNutt]

I never said they're worth nothing to the team. Right now they're worth enough to be paid what they're making. They might be worth more, but probably not the amount a union would demand. This isn't the 1950s where cheerleaders brought entertainment to pretty modest stadiums. Now the insane stadiums are their own entertainment and the cheerleaders aren't as important in a world of 160' Jumbotrons.

Teams could afford to pay cheerleaders more. They won't want to though and convincing them that they need the cheerleaders will be a tough sell.

[El Guapo]

I never said they're worth nothing to the team. Right now they're worth enough to be paid what they're making. They might be worth more, but probably not the amount a union would demand. This isn't the 1950s where cheerleaders brought entertainment to pretty modest stadiums. Now the insane stadiums are their own entertainment and the cheerleaders aren't as important in a world of 160' Jumbotrons.

Teams could afford to pay cheerleaders more. They won't want to though and convincing them that they need the cheerleaders will be a tough sell.

Presumably a union would demand an amount that's more than what they're currently paid but less than the total value of the cheerleaders to the team. That's kind of what unions do. And I don't think that total value number would be *that* hard to determine - add up the direct revenue (cheerleader calendars, public appearance money, etc.) and add in a number that's some tiny percentage of more general revenues, and there you go. I don't think that amount would be lifechanging to the cheerleaders, but it would help.

Teams wouldn't happily come along, but if the alternative is ditching the cheerleaders altogether, they would lose more revenue that way than they would gain (because they would lose the entirety of the direct revenue from the cheerleaders). So, I expect that at least a couple pigheaded owners would can the cheerleading teams, but it would be in the self-interest of teams to cut some sort of deal.

[noxiousdog]

They would just open it to non-unionized cheerleaders. For the Texans, 400 tried out this year for 35 spots.

Redskins abuse aside (the perpetrators should be prosecuted and the Redskins should be held accountable by the league as well), these are adults. They can make their own decisions. Trying to save them from themselves seems awful paternalistic to me.

[El Guapo]

They would just open it to non-unionized cheerleaders. For the Texans, 400 tried out this year for 35 spots.

Redskins abuse aside (the perpetrators should be prosecuted and the Redskins should be held accountable by the league as well), these are adults. They can make their own decisions. Trying to save them from themselves seems awful paternalistic to me.

Well, if the solution was unionization, that wouldn't be saving the cheerleaders from themselves. It would be cheerleaders saving themselves, via unionization.

[LawBeefaroni]

Do women make much money being professional dancers anyplace else? Unless they are on Dancing With the Stars, or a stripper, I don't think you can make a living being a professional dancer. Being a NFL cheerleader is just a part time job doing something they enjoy.

They don't make a living doing the actual cheerleading, they make money at non-game activities. All kinds of promotional activities like auto dealership appearances, corporate events, etc. It's not a ton but it's far more than the teams pay and more than they'd be able to make if they didn't have the NFL Cheerleader tag.

[Jeff V]

Do women make much money being professional dancers anyplace else? Unless they are on Dancing With the Stars, or a stripper, I don't think you can make a living being a professional dancer. Being a NFL cheerleader is just a part time job doing something they enjoy.

They don't make a living doing the actual cheerleading, they make money at non-game activities. All kinds of promotional activities like auto dealership appearances, corporate events, etc. It's not a ton but it's far more than the teams pay and more than they'd be able to make if they didn't have the NFL Cheerleader tag.

A few seconds of research indicated that a principle ballet dancer can make $150,000 per year, hardly chump change. There is a probably a lot of low-wage suffering to get to that point, though.

I have no idea what kind of income professional dance troupes bring in, but some of them have expensive-looking stage shows and costuming (and are pretty damn good). The choreography is such that it has to take a lot of time and effort.

[noxiousdog]

They would just open it to non-unionized cheerleaders. For the Texans, 400 tried out this year for 35 spots.

Redskins abuse aside (the perpetrators should be prosecuted and the Redskins should be held accountable by the league as well), these are adults. They can make their own decisions. Trying to save them from themselves seems awful paternalistic to me.

Well, if the solution was unionization, that wouldn't be saving the cheerleaders from themselves. It would be cheerleaders saving themselves, via unionization.

Agreed on unionization.

I was referring to both the thread title and many of the comments previously.

[McNutt]

Are you really comparing hot chick's with some dance experience to top-level ballet dancers? That's like telling a JV basketball player that he can fall back on the NBA.

[GreenGoo]

Lose your job as foreman on the assembly line? I hear NASA is hiring, and the pay is decent too, but you can always negotiate for more during the hiring process if you don't think it's enough.

[Matrix]

https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/bri ... 36675.html

Brittney and Federline (former dancer).

The legal docs paint Federline — who is seeking $60,000 a month, according to his attorney — as financially inferior to the pop superstar, saying he makes less than 1 percent of her annual earnings — “approximately $3,000 per month” without her additional $20K. Federline, who splits custody with 36-year-old Spears, wrote: “My income has changed significantly since the child support was last modified in approximately 2008 because I no longer earn a six-figure income like I did in 2008. I am no longer able to perform as a dancer due to my age, and I have not been as successful in putting out new music as I was in 2008. I am simply less of a ‘name’ and less in demand than I was in 2008, which has negatively affected my income.”

--

Irony ofcrouse that he would never made even close to six figures if it wasnt for Britteny, and he was never much of a name , once again if it wasnt for brittney.

[Isgrimnur]

Is he going to try out as an NFL cheerleader?

[Scuzz]

Cheerleaders don't need to unionize, they just need to be treated as regular employees and not some voluntary bimbos.

[gilraen]

A few seconds of research indicated that a principle ballet dancer can make $150,000 per year, hardly chump change. There is a probably a lot of low-wage suffering to get to that point, though.

There are fewer than 150 ballet dancers in the U.S. that bring in 6-figure salaries (and most of them live in NYC, which pretty much negates most of their pay raises). Average ballerina salary in the U.S.: about $35K.

[Kurth]

So, Uh, Why Does the NFL Have Cheerleaders Again? It’s outdated and sexist at best. We can do better.

[noxiousdog]

So, Uh, Why Does the NFL Have Cheerleaders Again? It’s outdated and sexist at best. We can do better.

I agree with her conclusion: "It’s especially frustrating because the solutions—better protections and pay by teams awash in resources; a less obtusely gendered, and more respectful, rethinking of the way in-game shows can be done—are there," but the headline is click-baity. She's not saying cheerleading is outdated. She's saying the way we treat them is outdated.

[LawBeefaroni]

New Orleans Saintsations

"Saintsations?"


Ban them. Ban them all.

[RunningMn9]

I agree with her conclusion: "It’s especially frustrating because the solutions—better protections and pay by teams awash in resources; a less obtusely gendered, and more respectful, rethinking of the way in-game shows can be done—are there,”

Does she mention the more obvious solution? Stop having cheerleaders.

[GreenGoo]

I agree with her conclusion: "It’s especially frustrating because the solutions—better protections and pay by teams awash in resources; a less obtusely gendered, and more respectful, rethinking of the way in-game shows can be done—are there,”

Does she mention the more obvious solution? Stop having cheerleaders.

It hurts when I do this, so stop doing it?

[RunningMn9]

I agree with her conclusion: "It’s especially frustrating because the solutions—better protections and pay by teams awash in resources; a less obtusely gendered, and more respectful, rethinking of the way in-game shows can be done—are there,”

Does she mention the more obvious solution? Stop having cheerleaders.

It hurts when I do this, so stop doing it?

More or less. The Cheerleaders for the Bills sure them over this sort of stuff and so the Bills told them to go scratch, no more cheerleaders. No one noticed or cared.

[noxiousdog]

I agree with her conclusion: "It’s especially frustrating because the solutions—better protections and pay by teams awash in resources; a less obtusely gendered, and more respectful, rethinking of the way in-game shows can be done—are there,”

Does she mention the more obvious solution? Stop having cheerleaders.

That's only a solution for those that like their moral crusades.

There's no shortage of people who want to be cheerleaders nor a shortage of people who enjoy the entertainment.

[GreenGoo]

More or less. The Cheerleaders for the Bills sure them over this sort of stuff and so the Bills told them to go scratch, no more cheerleaders. No one noticed or cared.

I'm sure that's not true, but it makes a good story if you have some particular issue with cheerleaders.

I don't really care one way or another, although I'm not a big fan of employers treating their employees poorly because they can, or yanking the rug out from under them when they raise a stink about it. It's not like treating their cheerleaders like human beings was going to bankrupt the Bills.

At the same time, I'd prefer that all cheerleaders stand up for themselves. If the league decides to do away with the jobs, fine. Somewhere less than 3,000 exploitative jobs disappear. Great. If they decide that dancing girls aren't things, even better. I'm not a fan of cheerleaders (or anyone, really) taking it on the chin because an employer has them over a barrel. Labor laws exist to prevent exactly that from happening in other fields. It's a pretty amoral approach.

You have to be pretty apathetic to believe that they got what they deserved when exploited employees sued their way out of their jobs. Particularly when the lawsuit had merit presumably, because they won it.

I don't care about the concept of cheerleaders. Have them. Don't have them. Whatever. As Nox says however, there is a market for them and people willing to do the job. It's frustrating from an ethical standpoint to watch owners decide that the women involved aren't worth treating like people, if they can't have their eye candy for cheap.

[RunningMn9]

More or less. The Cheerleaders for the Bills sure them over this sort of stuff and so the Bills told them to go scratch, no more cheerleaders. No one noticed or cared.

I'm sure that's not true, but it makes a good story if you have some particular issue with cheerleaders.

You're sure it's not true, despite having no knowledge at all of the team or situation?

I have no issue at all with cheerleaders. But it's been a few years now since they dismissed them all, and it's been perfectly fine without them. Of the 70k+ fans in the stadium, how many do you imagine are sitting there wishing there were still cheerleaders. Who cares? No one spent $200 a ticket to see cheerleaders for 3 minutes.

Edit: I would have been perfectly fine if the Bills had instead decided to treat them like humans (or at least treated them well as employees). But if they want to join the teams that don't have cheerleaders, I'm fine with that too.

[GreenGoo]

More or less. The Cheerleaders for the Bills sure them over this sort of stuff and so the Bills told them to go scratch, no more cheerleaders. No one noticed or cared.

I'm sure that's not true, but it makes a good story if you have some particular issue with cheerleaders.

You're sure it's not true, despite having no knowledge at all of the team or situation?

Of course. Just like you're sure it's true, despite not having anything but anecdotes and maybe if we're lucky, a couple of news articles.

If no one cared, they wouldn't have existed in the first place.

People don't buy a $200 ticket just so they can buy $8 beers, but they enjoy them while they're there anyway.

I don't know how many care about their missing cheerleaders, but I would expect a lot of men, while watching the bills play away games, see the home team's cheerleaders and remember fondly when the Bills had them too.

[Matrix]

Interesting article,it asked why women want to be chearleaders. Made me think, if it is such a horrible job... Why is it in demand from some of the most attractive women. After some thinking I think I have part of the answer. There is financial value and than there is social value. Let's sag she is cheerleader on team for 2 years, but now she can say I was/is chearleader on so and so team.

If you are a guy, what effect will have on you knowing girl you are going out with is official cheerleader, how you can tell your friends, etc, so in a way you get a prize on your hands. Not only is she pretty, she was also cheer leader. This potentially makes her more attractive in marriage /relationship market and allows her to get higher quality mate. If we look from thus angle, than getting crappy pay for a year or two (not unlike internship) doesn't look so bad , and unlike law or medical school you are getting social benefit and you are not paying for it.