Should I watch Babylon 5?

[Skinypupy]

TV sci-fi is hit and miss with me. For example, I adore Firefly and Farscape, but really dislike Battlestar Galactica (old and new) and Star Trek. I think the biggest key for me is a show with great characters, interesting stories, and one that doesn't take itself so damn serious all the time (which was the main issue I had with BSG).

I've never actually watched Babylon 5, but have always heard it talked about. Now that the show is streaming on Amazon Prime, I'm tempted to give it a shot. 20+ episodes/season is a pretty major time investment though, and I've been reading wildly different opinions on how it has held up. One site said to simply skip the entire first season because it's pretty much worthless, but I can't imagine a show where that would make a lick of sense. I've also read lots of "it starts slow but the payoff is totally worth it", and I'm a little curious how slow "slow" really is. If it's a few episodes, I'd probably be good with it. If it's 12 hours, not so much.

Figured I'd check with the hivemind before diving in (or not).

[Daehawk]

Yes its a must watch. but dont skip the first season at all.....just stick with it. It is a different beast in the beginning. Stay 6 eps at the least. But after the 1st its much better. It can be a serious show a lot. There are lighter eps and humor in it but its a serious story show a lot. That said it is a show filled with those interesting characters to the brim and more and interesting stories with multi layers. Id say its a true character show. They are amazing.

[pr0ner]

Yes.

[JSHAW]

I can honestly say that I've never seen more than 2-5 minutes of Babylon 5. I don't know why but it just didn't cut it with me.

HELL, I had an entire box set of Stargate SG1, never watched a single episode of it, sold it to a local dvd buy/sell store.

[Zarathud]

Yes.

That site is wrong. The first season seems to be throw away episodes at first but it sets up themes and plot elements that pay off over the next few seasons. Even those that seem irrelevant.

If you binge watch, you'll get to see the character development start paying off. The dynamic of Londo and J'Kharr alone is worth it.

[Kraken]

I also vote Yes. There are half a dozen TV shows* that I consider fundamental to the sf genre, and B5 is one of them. BSG is another, and even though you didn't like that one you at least saw enough to understand what it was about and why it was influential. Even if you ultimately decide that B5 is not for you, it's worth learning as much as you learned about BSG.

The dynamic of Londo and J'Kharr alone is worth it.

I agree that they are the heart of the show, and totally worthwhile. They start out cartoonish but deepen and grow as the series develops.

(*B5, BSG, Firefly, Farscape, and Star Trek DS9, TOS, and TNG. That's half a dozen if you lump the Treks together.)

[pr0ner]

If you binge watch, you'll get to see the character development start paying off. The dynamic of Londo and J'Kharr alone is worth it.

G'Kar.

[NickAragua]

Yes, you should watch it. The first season is a little uh... well, it's kind of um...

Well, I'm pretty sure they had a higher budget for season 2 onwards. I still love the character interactions. Actually, to be honest, I like Sinclair better than Sheridan. So while the storylines got more epic and the production values got better, the sudden departure of Sinclair bugged the hell out of me (yeah, yeah, I know, contract negotiations or whatever).

[dbt1949]

I have it on DVD and still watch it on occasion. Except for season one which I don't care for.

[hepcat]

As mentioned earlier, it's essential viewing for any fan of Sci Fi.

[killbot737]

Yes, but... Also some episodes are butt. But that is true of all shows. Butt. You'll also understand a lot more nerd memes.

[Daehawk]

the sudden departure of Sinclair bugged the hell out of me (yeah, yeah, I know, contract negotiations or whatever).

Sadly I believe it was because of Michael O’Hare's mental issues. RIP

[Ralph-Wiggum]

I also have never watched it. For some reason it just never interested me, despite generally liking as SciFi (loved STNG, Battlestar Galactica, and now The Expanse). I guess Babylon 5 always gave me a Deep Space 9 vibe, which never took to.

[Skinypupy]

Thanks all. I have a 4 hour flight tomorrow, and will load up the first few episodes to check out.

[LordMortis]

Funny you should ask. I just started watching it a couple of weeks ago. I've never seen it before. I'm only on the second DVD of the second season and I'm really liking it.

When I started watching, I was warned by several people to sit through the first season because it gets better but the first season is important.

The puzzled me because I thought the first season was fantastic and actually enjoyed it more than the first DVD of the second season.

It's really over the top in it's moral parallels (parables?) much like ST:TOS was but the over the top social commentary is soooo appropriate for a lens of the US of today.

If you watch faster than I do, we can compare notes.

[Sudy]

Oh my goodness, yes. Though I myself have been thinking of re-watching it and am concerned about how well it might hold up, I'm pretty sure it would just take several episodes to settle into it. I remember thinking back in the early 2000s when I began watching it how jarring the early-gen CGI was in contrast with the models used by the Trek series of the 90s, but suspension of disbelief quickly took hold and I just accepted it was the show's style.

Its storytelling trumps everything. Season 2 was when it really got its hooks in me, too. I wouldn't recommend skipping season 1 though, there are just too many things you'll be able to look back on. Just power through the weaker, more standalone sci-fi episodes like they were episodes of TOS or something.

By the time you get to seasons 3 and 4, you'll feel ashamed for ever considering not watching it.

[dbt1949]

To me the show starts and ends with the war of "the Others". Before and after that was just another space opera.

[NickAragua]

To me the show starts and ends with the war of "the Others". Before and after that was just another space opera.

I dunno, my favorite part was always the

Spoiler:

Earth civil war

. The other major conflict of the series, I never really felt as much of a personal stake in. Heh, unless that's what you're talking about in which case I agree.

[Isgrimnur]

Mr. Morden: "What do you want?"

Stephen Furst was a national treasure.

[Daehawk]

That show has a lot of dead actors from it now and some died young. Its kinda freaky.

Richard Biggs 44 - Dr Franklin - Stroke / descending aortic aneurysm
Michael O'Hare 60 Commander Sinclair - heart attack
Jeff Conaway 60 - security Zack - pneumonia
Andreas Katsulas 59 - G'Kar - lung cancer
Tim Choate 49 - Zathras -motorcycle accident
Jerry Doyle 60 - security chief Michael Garibaldi - natural causes / chronic alcoholism ....my favorite character
Robin Sachs 61 - Na'Tok - heart failure
Stephen Furst 63 - Vir Cotto - diabetes .......another great character

[dbt1949]

To me the show starts and ends with the war of "the Others". Before and after that was just another space opera.

I dunno, my favorite part was always the

Spoiler:

Earth civil war

. The other major conflict of the series, I never really felt as much of a personal stake in. Heh, unless that's what you're talking about in which case I agree.

That kind of went along side by side with the Others.

[Shinjin]

Yes, the first season is very much 'monster of the week', but there are episodes that are involved in the main story arc, which really gets on the move with season 2. If that bothers you, feel free to consult online guides that call out the 'must view' episodes from season 1. You may miss a few minor details and references later on, but the seasons 2-4 are some of the best story and character driven sci-fi that has been written.

[gbasden]

The last episode is one of the best I have ever seen, as well. It just rips me up.

[Skinypupy]

Watched the first episode last night, and that was certainly...something.

The CGI was tough to watch, but more in a funny "oh yeah, that's what the 90's looked like" sort of way. I'm really hoping the acting improves though. Outside of Londo, most of that was just flat out bad.

[Sudy]

It does. (I think I remember the second, aired pilot being pretty rough around the edges.)

And if the slow episodes are given you second thoughts, be sure to consult a guide as Shinjin mentioned for season one's skippable episodes.

[Jeff V]

I also have never watched it. For some reason it just never interested me, despite generally liking as SciFi (loved STNG, Battlestar Galactica, and now The Expanse). I guess Babylon 5 always gave me a Deep Space 9 vibe, which never took to.

There are parallels, among them though is that both got much more interesting when war created a multi-season story arc (B5, the Shadow Wars, DS9, Dominion Wars).

[JCC]

Babylon 5 is plenty of fun. There is some true gold in there, though it takes some patience. I also think the actor who plays Sinclair is just awful in season one. (He's markedly better later on.) I also have some problems with how some of the plot threads are tied up (or in some cases NOT tied up).

The most interesting plot line (to me) in the show has an absolutely TERRIBLE resolution. Like, throw your beer at the TV bad. Insultingly, stupidly bad. But, even with that frustration, the journey was a lot of fun and worth the crappy ending (for that particular story thread).

The lack of resolution particularly makes the final season very frustrating. But, the final episode of the show is simply magnificent.

I fall into the camp that thinks DS9 was (significantly) better than B5, but they are both fun space operas with strengths and weaknesses. You should really watch both. But you need some patience with both.

[Blackhawk]

The divide on season 1 is because it isn't season 1 that is good or bad. Season 1 splits. It had something to do with a change in staff, or the creator stepping in when he wasn't happy with how things were going, or something like that. The first few episodes are pretty bad. Then you get to an episode where the doctor is trying to save an alien child and the parents won't allow it. With that episode the whole show turns around.

It ends up being an absolutely amazing show.

[gbasden]

The most interesting plot line (to me) in the show has an absolutely TERRIBLE resolution. Like, throw your beer at the TV bad. Insultingly, stupidly bad. But, even with that frustration, the journey was a lot of fun and worth the crappy ending (for that particular story thread).

Can you put in spoilers which one you mean? I'm honestly not certain what you are referring to.

[sgoldj]

I loved B5, even more than DS9.

If anyone was around on GEnie at the time, you may remember Ron Thorton and JMS stopping by along with some of the fighting that went on between those two shows, the pitches, etc.

Having an Amiga at the time, I loved that the CGI was produced with a Video Toaster IIRC.

[JCC]

The most interesting plot line (to me) in the show has an absolutely TERRIBLE resolution. Like, throw your beer at the TV bad. Insultingly, stupidly bad. But, even with that frustration, the journey was a lot of fun and worth the crappy ending (for that particular story thread).

Can you put in spoilers which one you mean? I'm honestly not certain what you are referring to.

Spoiler:

The Shadows vs. the Vorlons vs. (everyone else). Years of build up, leading to an unwinnable fight and then Sheridan just says "Go away. We don't need you or want you." and the Shadows and the Vorlons are like "All right... off we go then..." One of the biggest WTF?! moments for me. For that matter, I didn't like the Vorlons ending up being "just as bad" as the Shadows in the end either. Not that I ever thought they were "good", more enigmatic... but ... anyway, don't want to rant all day. It just didn't work for me and felt like a cop out. I have no idea if that was JMS' plan all along, but I highly doubt it (even if he were to swear to me that it was). It felt to me that he wrote himself into a corner and came up with a shit resolution... Sorry, I guess I did rant too much.

Anyway, the journey to the part I don't like remains wonderful. So I still have largely warm feelings about the show. And I still unreservedly recommend it to fans of space operas.

Oh and just to throw it out there - any fan of EITHER DS9 or B5 owes it to themselves to watch Blake's 7 (if they haven't already). Another show with an incredible final episode.

[gbasden]

Spoiler:

The Shadows vs. the Vorlons vs. (everyone else). Years of build up, leading to an unwinnable fight and then Sheridan just says "Go away. We don't need you or want you." and the Shadows and the Vorlons are like "All right... off we go then..." One of the biggest WTF?! moments for me. For that matter, I didn't like the Vorlons ending up being "just as bad" as the Shadows in the end either. Not that I ever thought they were "good", more enigmatic... but ... anyway, don't want to rant all day. It just didn't work for me and felt like a cop out. I have no idea if that was JMS' plan all along, but I highly doubt it (even if he were to swear to me that it was). It felt to me that he wrote himself into a corner and came up with a shit resolution... Sorry, I guess I did rant too much.

Anyway, the journey to the part I don't like remains wonderful. So I still have largely warm feelings about the show. And I still unreservedly recommend it to fans of space operas.

Oh and just to throw it out there - any fan of EITHER DS9 or B5 owes it to themselves to watch Blake's 7 (if they haven't already). Another show with an incredible final episode.

Spoiler:

I didn't take it that way at all. I thought the Order/Chaos division was really interesting. Given that JMS had the entire arc laid out and used it as part of his sales pitch when trying to get the show made, I don't think he was writing that season and just decided "oops". Anyway, I can see how you feel, but I thought this was a really good summation of what he was trying to do.

[stessier]

I appreciate this thread as I have never seen the show and was wondering the same thing. I stayed home from work yesterday because I'm sick and tried watching the first episode. I fell asleep 12 minutes in. I'm pretty sick, though, so I'm not really blaming the show (yet). The graphics, though - oh boy - they have not aged well.

[LordMortis]

I also have some problems with how some of the plot threads are tied up (or in some cases NOT tied up).

Just finished Season 2 and I think I can say this without spoilers. I hate the Psycore plot threads and I can only assume there omnipresence is going to leave a lot loose threads. I'm guessing they will be necessary for an excuse for some small earthcore thing that they make out to be a huge thing and they simply can't wrap up any other way. As far as espionage goes they already have how many other groups fulfilling the same purpose? But enough about that...

Aside from that the only thing I dislike it incessant need to bring up Ivanava(?)'s backstories and there seem to be a lot of them. So now ever week i have to hear she's russian, she's jewish, she has daddy issues, her mom was messed up telepath, and spoiler, and spoiler. I fear by season five, I am going to have the first five minutes of Ivanava summary every week.

So psycore and Ivanava weekly backstory summary aside with possible new detail to be revealed and summarized repeatedly, I really enjoy the show.

[Isgrimnur]

[LordMortis]

Trust only in Ivanava, first of her name, last of her family, first officer of Babylon 5, Sufferer of Russian cultural duress, daughter of political and distant father, daughter of disgraced but valiant psychic mother, non observing jew, sworn hater of psycore, spoiler, spoiler....

[Skinypupy]

I got through the first 6 episodes on my trip this week. After a really rough start, I'm starting to warm to it a bit. Getting past the laughable CGI (even for the 90's), the utterly wooden acting, and the crappy dialog of the first three episodes was kind of a challenge, to be honest.

I can't really put my finger on it, but there seemed to be a distinct tonal shift in the entire show after the first few episodes. It felt like they stopped filming it like a "sitcom in space", and made it more of a dramatic event. The acting is starting to feel far more natural, the roles seem to be more nuanced and less one note ("Oh look, it's the brave captain! the disciplined soldier! the comic relief!"), they actually cracked a few jokes, the camera angles were better, the CGI was less prominent, and even the overall "look" of filming was different. Just from a production perspective, it felt like switching from an episode of Big Bang Theory to CSI, if that makes any sense.

While I'm still not entirely sold on it, I'm interested enough to keep watching. The only character that I have zero interest in is Ivanava. She's a terrible actress, and (as mentioned above), every bit of her character development seems entirely random. In episode 3, there's this completely out of the blue subplot about her about making secret calls to her father who was in poor health that just left me scratching my head. It - along with the other revelations about her character (she's Russian, she's apparently an alcoholic, etc.) - all just seem tacked-on or forced.

[Daehawk]

I recall it having some great cgi effects. maybe it was post season one.

Babylon 5 is produced on a per-episode budget of roughly $800,000, quite low for a science-fiction series; "Star Trek: Deep Space Nine," by comparison, has a budget of roughly $1.6 million per episode, and Fox's "Space: Above and Beyond" is rumored to cost $2 million.

As you can see they had less cash but then look at what Space Above and Beyond had and looked crappy. SAaB was my favorite show at the time but B5 blew it away.

[Blackhawk]

As I recall, it was a pioneer in using CGI at all. It was made in the era when television effects were made with models and camera tricks.

[Moliere]

Grinding my way through Season 1. The graphics are 90s quaint like old video games.

The final scene of S1E5 The Parliament of Dreams has made the first season worth watching. I hope there are more.