Should I watch Babylon 5?

[JCC]

Spoiler:

I didn't take it that way at all. I thought the Order/Chaos division was really interesting. Given that JMS had the entire arc laid out and used it as part of his sales pitch when trying to get the show made, I don't think he was writing that season and just decided "oops". Anyway, I can see how you feel, but I thought this was a really good summation of what he was trying to do.

I don't think I worded things well. I was tired at the end of a long day.

B5 spoilers

Spoiler:

I didn't like the fact that he made the Vorlons as "evil" as the Shadows when that was not really how they were characterized to that point. Yes, they were very enigmatic, so it's not like we knew they were "good", but there were certainly signs of some benevolence, which I felt were thrown away at the end. Note, that this was just an annoyance that didn't make my blood boil like....

But, the part I hated was Sheridan simply saying (in effect) "Go away!" and then both the Shadows and Vorlons are all "Ok, LATERS!" That felt like such a cop-out ending to me. THIS is the part I suspect JMS didn't plan thoroughly, or he did and just didn't write it in a way that I found believable.

On DS9 and ITS ending. (DS9 and B5 spoilers)

Spoiler:

One of the reasons (by no means the only one) that I like DS9 better, is its ending felt MUCH more like they had planned it long term, even though I know they actually didn't! I thought Sisko becoming a "prophet" at the end was kind of dumb, but it was consistent with the arc of his character and it seemed like they had a consistent plan for him (even though they didn't). Also, DS9 set up an unwinnable war and then had our heroes actually WIN it. And they did it through a logical series of events including our heroes doing some very un-heroic things on the way to victory. Much more satisfying than the lame "GO AWAY" - "OK LOLZ" ending we got to the Shadow War.

Anyway, I don't want to come off as a "DS9 RULEZ, B5 SUCKS, LOL!" because that's not really how I feel. I really like both shows. But, that one plot thread's conclusion in B5 really bugged me then and the 2nd time I watched it.

In fact, this discussion really has made me want to rewatch B5 again, but I just have too many new shows in the queue to stream right now.

[Blackhawk]

As a lifelong D&D player, it made a certain sense.

Spoiler:

It wasn't good vs evil or evil vs evil, it was chaos vs order. The chaotic evil Shadows were obvious and blatantly evil, and we trusted the lawful evil Vorlons instead. In the end, though, they weren't less evil, just more insidiously evil. The cautionary tale was that the real danger can be that the greatest evil isn't always the one with the pointy horns and spikes, it's the beautiful evil that you trust.

Now that I think about it, the show is pretty relevant today.

[Daehawk]

Even though I loved and watched the series I dont think I ever watch the last ep of DS9. Well not all of it anyways. I remember bit parts of it. Either I saw it and forgot or Ive seen clips on YouTube. No idea why Id miss it.

[dbt1949]

I have all the Shadow Wars on Babylon 5 and the last season of DS9 which had all the action in it.
I watch them all on a regular basis.
DS9 episodes are not in order tho.

[Daveman]

Re: Vorlons

Spoiler:

I agree wholeheartedly that they were, on the D&D scale, more order/lawful than "good". For most of the series the only Vorlon we ever see is Kosh and I got the impression he was more lawful good than the rest of his species, although he certainly had his darker moments.

Beyond that, and I might be missing a few things:

1. The Vorlons were willing to blow up B5 in the opening mini-series.
2. They altered Lyta Alexander to turn her into a weapon/liason for Kosh.
3. Early in the series I believe they mentioned that anyone who ventured into Vorlon space was never seen again.
4. The replacement "Kosh" was a real jerk to Lyta, alhtough admittedly that was after the death of the first "Kosh" and the shadow war was in full swing.

Doesn't portray them in a very positive light.

Re: Special effects

Maybe it was because of my PC gaming at the time, but I liked the special effects if only because it felt like I might have been watching Wing Commander/Descent Freespace: The Movie. On the plus side, they were more able to have a variety of ships and designs than they ever showed at one time in Star Trek series at the time. When the fighting really starts you have swarms of fighters and ships of different classes and races battling it out.

I also loved how they how featured beam weapons

[Jeff V]

Even though I loved and watched the series I dont think I ever watch the last ep of DS9. Well not all of it anyways. I remember bit parts of it. Either I saw it and forgot or Ive seen clips on YouTube. No idea why Id miss it.

You didn't miss much. Dax flashes her tits, the end.

[Blackhawk]

Even though I loved and watched the series I dont think I ever watch the last ep of DS9. Well not all of it anyways. I remember bit parts of it. Either I saw it and forgot or Ive seen clips on YouTube. No idea why Id miss it.

You didn't miss much. Dax flashes her tits, the end.

This is not the Dax he's looking for.

[gbasden]

Spoiler:

I didn't take it that way at all. I thought the Order/Chaos division was really interesting. Given that JMS had the entire arc laid out and used it as part of his sales pitch when trying to get the show made, I don't think he was writing that season and just decided "oops". Anyway, I can see how you feel, but I thought this was a really good summation of what he was trying to do.

I don't think I worded things well. I was tired at the end of a long day.

B5 spoilers

Spoiler:

I didn't like the fact that he made the Vorlons as "evil" as the Shadows when that was not really how they were characterized to that point. Yes, they were very enigmatic, so it's not like we knew they were "good", but there were certainly signs of some benevolence, which I felt were thrown away at the end. Note, that this was just an annoyance that didn't make my blood boil like....

But, the part I hated was Sheridan simply saying (in effect) "Go away!" and then both the Shadows and Vorlons are all "Ok, LATERS!" That felt like such a cop-out ending to me. THIS is the part I suspect JMS didn't plan thoroughly, or he did and just didn't write it in a way that I found believable.

On DS9 and ITS ending. (DS9 and B5 spoilers)

Spoiler:

One of the reasons (by no means the only one) that I like DS9 better, is its ending felt MUCH more like they had planned it long term, even though I know they actually didn't! I thought Sisko becoming a "prophet" at the end was kind of dumb, but it was consistent with the arc of his character and it seemed like they had a consistent plan for him (even though they didn't). Also, DS9 set up an unwinnable war and then had our heroes actually WIN it. And they did it through a logical series of events including our heroes doing some very un-heroic things on the way to victory. Much more satisfying than the lame "GO AWAY" - "OK LOLZ" ending we got to the Shadow War.

Anyway, I don't want to come off as a "DS9 RULEZ, B5 SUCKS, LOL!" because that's not really how I feel. I really like both shows. But, that one plot thread's conclusion in B5 really bugged me then and the 2nd time I watched it.

In fact, this discussion really has made me want to rewatch B5 again, but I just have too many new shows in the queue to stream right now.

I guess the part I disagree with is

Spoiler:

He didn't just tell them to go away. He built a coalition of all of the younger races as well as the remaining first ones that were left who then killed the Vorlon planet destroyer as well as destroying Shadow and Vorlon ships alike. Lorien himself stepped in and told both sides it was time to leave the younger races to develop on their own. It wasn't any more magic hand waving than any other part of the complicated plot to me, at least.

Anyway, I'm not trying to argue. Your take is equally as valid as mine. That event just obviously felt more organic to me than it does to you.

[Zarathud]

I think both sides had reasons.

Spoiler:

Shadows must have known the schism on Earth while the Vorlons knew Earth just chose a different order. In hindsight, I think each realized it was time to let their existing plots play out and see who won in the long run.

[Jaddison]

If you enjoy B5 the books provide a lot of background/missing pieces. The 3 three book sets, the Bester saga, Technomages and Centauri Prime, all very good. Unfortunately none have been turned into ebooks of any kind that I can tell.

[LordMortis]

I'm about half way through season 4 and it seems to me the entire series is really about how different people cope or don't cope with personal demons. That seems to be the theme behind nearly every show. In the beginning it was all Ivananva demons but then branched out character by character. I wonder if that was the intent of the creator or if it's just a lens with which he sees the world.

And I still dislike psychic this and psychic that and psychic the other. I now have a better understanding of why it's all psychic shows all the time but I still don't care for it.

Aside from that the space opera and the what I would have thought as over the top political parables but now seem like social commentary a decade ago keep me watching.

[Isgrimnur]

At the end of it all, all stories are about the people.

[LordMortis]

At the end of it all, all stories are about the people.

Yeah, but but growth is one thing. What do they usually say? Something like Man vs Man, Man vs nature, Man vs Society, Man vs Self. The vast majority of episodes are tied heavily into Man vs Self. Overcoming who they are from the past. Overcoming who they are becoming. Overcoming their nature. Or not overcoming these things.

The were two characters without constant internal struggle, Vir and Laneer. And then Vir changed. Leaving me just Laneer. It's weird to me that the most one dimensional character is the one I most interested in because OMG, I don't want to sit through another 45 minutes of character X being haunted by the spectre of y.

This might not stick out so much if it weren't for being hit over the head with Ivanava personal demon struggles for no reason whatsoever in the first season. It's made me sensitive to seeing the presentations of "the flawed hero" that don't suit my enjoyment of the series in every character. Or maybe it's my own personal demon and I'm coming to discover I don't care to hear about a freshman psychology book of personal struggles in my fiction.

I *do* like Laneer though, which is odd. I hope that doesn't change. The last thing I want is for him to wake up one day in season five and discover he no longer has a clarity of purpose and lives a life of awe in service for those who are "the best of us"while his actually acting in better faith and conscience than those he tries to emulate. That he discovers he resents unrequited love and then has a story arch to overcome becoming a park bench dater from having volunteered a life of being in the friend zone and kissing first Sinclair and then Sharidan's asses. Tell me that doesn't happen. I look forward to Laneer centric episodes.

And still, I'm watching. I like the story, the intrigues, the culture. I just don't care for the subplots or side episodes. And of course while I get the psychic stuff drive show now, I'm sad they went that route. I'd rather the universe be powered the dilithium crystals than be the new normal in plot devices in a future vision of humanity.

If I were a drinking man, though, I'd take a drink every time someone seems to have some sort personal psychological hang up that is overtly forcing their action or inaction and slam a full drink every time there a side story is about personal discovery related to a psychological hang up. Two if the discovery leads to a failed attempt at change of a character flaw.

[Skinypupy]

I'm still working my way through Season 1. I typically only watch when I'm travelling, and have (thankfully) been at home for a couple weeks. The show has definitely started to grow on me though, and I'm quite enjoying it.

[LordMortis]

If my impressions feel too spoilerish to you just bitchslap me. I'm trying to discuss what I'm walking away with without actually talking about what is happening and I'm not the best judge of my own actions.

Also, with all my criticism, I am still watching, which ultimately means I approve. I don't care if I spent a ton of money on something (and I didn't. I borrowed this) If a TV show/Video Game/Book/Movie loses me, they lose me and I don't give them more of my time. I move on to something else. The space opera combined with body politic and coexisting with such strong cultural divides keeps me watching usually at least one episode a night before I go to bed and usually two a day on the weekends. Sometimes more.

[Skinypupy]

Midway through season 2 and holy hell did this show ever get dark.

I’m liking it more and more (still not sold on Boxleitner though), but...damn.

Spoiler:

Londo just ordered the attack on the Narn outpost, killed a shitload of civilians in the process, and started a war. And a bunch of earth force marines got slaughtered after a semi-successful raid, including Girabaldi’s potential love interest

[Daehawk]

Not sure when it is but the look Londo has as he watches the mass drivers firing is memorable.

[Skinypupy]

God dammit, Talia.

[Skinypupy]

Midway through Season 3, and shit just hit the fan...big time.

Spoiler:

Earth declared martial law, tried to takeover B5, Nightwatch got exposed for what they really are, G’Kar aligned the Narn with the humans, etc, etc,

The extraordinary pace that everything has gone to hell has been amazing to watch, and adds a fantastic sense of urgency to it all. The fact that they’re all just basically infighting and not even addressing the actual “big bad” is horrifying. I’m really warming to Sinclair, who has been a bad-ass this season. Can’t wait to see where this all goes.

Only character I’m not really feeling is Marcus. He feels entirely superfluous, but they keep making him try and seem important. It’s just not working.

[Isgrimnur]

Marcus is awesome. That is all.

[Skinypupy]

Marcus is awesome. That is all.

Yeah, I'm assuming they actually give him something to do at some point.

[Daehawk]

I’m really warming to Sinclair,

You mean Sheridan?

Also Marcus always reminded me of King Arthur.

[Skinypupy]

I’m really warming to Sinclair,

You mean Sheridan?

Also Marcus always reminded me of King Arthur.

Yes, Sheridan. Whoops.

[NickAragua]

Marcus is awesome. That is all.

"What if life was fair?" has got to be one of the best philosophical shpiels I've heard in a TV show.

[Skinypupy]

Just watched the “War Without End” 2-parter.

That may be the best two hours of sci-fi I’ve ever seen. Truly incredible.

[LordMortis]

I'm somewhere in season 5 and haven't pushed forward in weeks. My attention span and desire to see the next episode dropped to 0 in season 5. I feel like "I'm 80% of the way done I should just read until the end" but it's just not there. We'll see what happens if I ever catch up on some of my TiVo. Man, who has time for streamed on demand TV?

[Isgrimnur]

I never watched Season 5. From what I recall, it was a significant shift in the story and cast, and I had no need to progress past the end of S4.

[El Guapo]

Season 5 is optional. The showrunner (Strazynczki) was expecting the show to get canceled after season 4, so he wrapped up (and unfortunately rushed) the main storylines of the show at the end of season 4. When the show wound up not getting canceled, he threw together a final season. But because all the main storylines had ended, the content is pretty separate, there's a new station captain, and it's basically just sort of like an unnecessary expansion. Plus IIRC the season 5 storyline for Londo is pretty dumb.

[Daehawk]

My favorite or at least one of my favorite eps is from early in season 5...A View from the Gallery.

[LordMortis]

My favorite or at least one of my favorite eps is from early in season 5...A View from the Gallery.

I'm past that. I liked the concept, the execution, not so much. I'm a big fan of narration from, what do they call it,"Petite histoire"? but the episode was just too Forest Gump or perhaps Munchhausen for me and compressed in to the narration of a single day in the life of. I like what they wanted to accomplish. *shrug*

[gbasden]

Season 5 is optional. The showrunner (Strazynczki) was expecting the show to get canceled after season 4, so he wrapped up (and unfortunately rushed) the main storylines of the show at the end of season 4. When the show wound up not getting canceled, he threw together a final season. But because all the main storylines had ended, the content is pretty separate, there's a new station captain, and it's basically just sort of like an unnecessary expansion. Plus IIRC the season 5 storyline for Londo is pretty dumb.

If nothing else, watch the last episode. Sleeping in Light is so good.

[Zaxxon]

A new remastered version of Babylon 5 is now available. . (To buy, or included with HBO Max.)

[pr0ner]

A new remastered version of Babylon 5 is now available. . (To buy, or included with HBO Max.)

ZOMG.

ETA: It's weird seeing the show in 4:3 again, but the remaster job is very well done. It's about as good as this show can possibly look.

[$iljanus]

A new remastered version of Babylon 5 is now available. . (To buy, or included with HBO Max.)

A few months ago I finished rewatching DS9. I think this is next on my nostalgia tour of old shows. We live for the One...

[Max Peck]

Hopefully the remastered version will find its way to Canada. Some HBO content is carried here on Crave, so there is hopefully some chance we'll get it.

[JCC]

Checked out a few seconds of the first - well 2nd episode. The actual live action scenes look MUCH better in ep 2 as opposed to the not remastered pilot movie (ep 1). The CGI looks mostly the same to me. Not really up for a rewatch of B5 right now (I love the best parts of B5 but think there are also many very bad episodes in between and most of the last season was pointless. I am definielty in the DS9 > B5 camp but yes the best parts of B5 are absolutely awesome... Speaking of which, fuck Paramount (or whoever) for not doing a DS9 remaster, but I digress...) [Back to B5].... but I am sure I will rewatch it again some day and look forward to it looking better than ever before.

[gbasden]

Checked out a few seconds of the first - well 2nd episode. The actual live action scenes look MUCH better in ep 2 as opposed to the not remastered pilot movie (ep 1). The CGI looks mostly the same to me. Not really up for a rewatch of B5 right now (I love the best parts of B5 but think there are also many very bad episodes in between and most of the last season was pointless. I am definielty in the DS9 > B5 camp but yes the best parts of B5 are absolutely awesome... Speaking of which, fuck Paramount (or whoever) for not doing a DS9 remaster, but I digress...) [Back to B5].... but I am sure I will rewatch it again some day and look forward to it looking better than ever before.

DS9 doesn't have any characters nearly as fantastic and Londo and G'Kar. I'm definitely in the B5>DS9 camp, and I'm really looking forward to another watch!

[Daehawk]

Still waiting on my Damnation Alley cgi remaster ...and Airwolf.

[Daveman]

Wow, that's great news... I've been itching to watch this again and missed whatever last brief window of streaming was available.

I've been binging Stargate SG1 (about halfway done, always liked what I saw but missed big chunks of it) but this might push it to the back burner.

[Zaxxon]

Checked out a few seconds of the first - well 2nd episode. The actual live action scenes look MUCH better in ep 2 as opposed to the not remastered pilot movie (ep 1). The CGI looks mostly the same to me. Not really up for a rewatch of B5 right now (I love the best parts of B5 but think there are also many very bad episodes in between and most of the last season was pointless. I am definielty in the DS9 > B5 camp but yes the best parts of B5 are absolutely awesome... Speaking of which, fuck Paramount (or whoever) for not doing a DS9 remaster, but I digress...) [Back to B5].... but I am sure I will rewatch it again some day and look forward to it looking better than ever before.

DS9 doesn't have any characters nearly as fantastic and Londo and G'Kar. I'm definitely in the B5>DS9 camp, and I'm really looking forward to another watch!

While I don't have a horse in which show is ultimately better (I think they excel at different things), Garak would like a word with you.