GG's Financial Management Thread

[GreenGoo]

The absolute worst part of this from my perspective is that I now have to inquire as to the status of her last name changes and all the follow up questions. Of course I'm not going to ask "wtf didn't you change your name with the SIN people", but I do need to ask if she recalls doing it (and somehow the new card is missing) or..what? Not sure how to handle this mystery without getting into an argument.

Yes, I realize it seems like a no brainer for those watching at home. It's not. Any implied criticism, especially after 3 night shifts, is gonna be either a) a brawl or b) me placating the entire time.

We already had a b) me placating on another subject tonight.

Maybe I'll just go to bed.

School tomorrow!

[Madmarcus]

This is going to sound preachy, feely, and just plain weird but I'm going to throw out an alternative. It isn't for everyone but it has contributed significantly to my happy marriage. I apologize ahead of time for putting this in the new GG thread as it is probably not directly helpful to GG (although it sounds a lot like your description of having things under control enough that you can go out to eat without thinking about it when you want to).

It sounds obvious, but most financial issues stem from not respecting that and ending up spending the same $1 several times.

Oh, god yes. I've found that there is nothing more disastrous for my finances than having 'enough' rather than a specific number.

At one point I would have said the same thing. Then I embraced the concept of Enough (related to but not directly inspired by Vicki Robbins's YMOYL book). My wife and I are both math/science people with naturally frugal habits and a desire to plan. We're also somewhat lazy (great planners but not always the best at doing) and, at one point, had two kids with all the associated demands on our time and mental energy. Pre-kids we'd been tracking everything well. Not to the level some here have said (and this was way before Mint or YNAB) but tracking things.

After the kids arrived this started to stress us out. Not due to finances per say - we had the money. But it took mental energy and time that we didn't have. So we set up our Enough system. Everything on the CC (money back - yeah!). Then one person looks at all the bills and pays them. As long as they are similar to past history they are paid without any real discussion (this has had to change to include a brief scan for suspicious activity now). Any significant changes in the total amount that aren't related to planned events (vacation for example) starts a discussion. For us this meant no more hassles over keeping receipts or forgetting a transaction. Drastically fewer discussions over one off purchases that didn't fit nicely into budget categories but, over time, tend towards a stable rate of spending. Basically fewer chances to have our inertia ruin a perfect system yet enough oversight that if one of us did start spending too much we'd be forced to confront it within a couple of months.

I like to thing of it as the Pareto Principle in action - 20% of the effort of total budgeting/YNAB yielding 80% of the benefits. Of course it only works in that we are privileged enough to have a cushion of multiple months worth of normal expenses. We also had to trust that neither of us would destroy this cushion in one month. Finally we had to accept that one person would be paying all the bills BUT that person was not a gatekeeper in any real sense.

[Madmarcus]

I've got to ask what is probably a stupid question. You have described your wife as being unable to do financial math. I've been taking that as what it would mean to me. Namely that she has been charging things and paying the minimum balance (or other amounts under the total amount due). But this info on the SIN number makes me question my assumption. Is this latest issue just because she didn't pay the bill and let if fall into collection without even trying to pay it off?

I ask because, to me at least, those are very different issues.

[GreenGoo]

I've got to ask what is probably a stupid question. You have described your wife as being unable to do financial math. I've been taking that as what it would mean to me. Namely that she has been charging things and paying the minimum balance (or other amounts under the total amount due). But this info on the SIN number makes me question my assumption. Is this latest issue just because she didn't pay the bill and let if fall into collection without even trying to pay it off?

I ask because, to me at least, those are very different issues.

I think in some ways I've always operated similar to your "enough" program, in that my default behaviour is not to spent. I don't look at it very often, but when I do I realize I'm living the life of a monk. Sometimes you'll catch me doing shopper's therapy where I buy something just to make myself happy, but most of the time I just do without. Unfortunately the house (literally, the house) has had to do without as well, and that means it's starting to reach a state of disrepair. That needs to change, obviously.

My point is my wife gets a vacation because she needs one (who doesn't?) and deserves it (because she's my wife, and she works very hard for the family). I don't take a vacation because I can't bring myself to spend that money on myself. That is in part my wife's fault. I simply do without so that *we* don't have to do without, like, a house for example. It's not healthy, but most of the time I just don't care. I've trained myself not to want things, so I don't. Video gaming helps with that by keeping me busy and entertained. Well the vacation thing isn't entirely true. I save my paid vacation days and use them as a lot of single days off because I don't know when I'm going to need to take a day off work. Having my pto pool available is important and if I use it on 3 weeks in August, I'm going to be fucked if I need a day in November. I still don't like to spend money on myself and that is in part because of how my wife operates her finances.

Ok, to your question.

My wife can do basic math, so yes your interpretation is correct. She spends, then throws money at the card. There is no relationship that I can tell between her income, her spending, and her payments. Well, income and payments are probably sorta related. Spending isn't related to either of them. She says it is, but evidence says otherwise.

The SIN card thing is just a bureaucratic miscue. She changed her name provincially (health card (single payer remember) and driver's license). She didn't change it federally, I guess? I believe she files her taxes under her married name, so I don't have a clue wtf is happening at federal government level. Some of her stuff is going to be under her maiden name and some of it under her married name? I honestly don't have a clue what the ramifications are. I'm not particularly stressed about it but I will probably help her work out the paperwork to get it fixed.

Basically she did the name change thing where she knew to do it (or was told by family, friends, co-workers. I don't know, I wasn't involved) but missed a place, and as it turns out, an important place. It's nothing but missed paperwork, really.

[GreenGoo]

Small scale relationship brawl because my wife is insistently and unironically warning me about my brother's nefarious ways, in ways that imply that I'm not aware of the dangers, and that I'm vulnerable to being taken advantage of financially.

You don't say, wife of mine?

Let's just say that I'm not receptive to a lecture on being careful with money from my wife at the moment.

[GreenGoo]

Last Friday I left a message with the lawyer I use for real estate sales to see if she does any debt work or has someone in her office who does. No response yet. I'm not hopeful.

I've called a trustee today to see if they do debt lawyering or can recommend someone who does. My plan is to talk to a professional and see what options we have, if any.

[Anonymous Bosch]

Last Friday I left a message with the lawyer I use for real estate sales to see if she does any debt work or has someone in her office who does. No response yet. I'm not hopeful.

I've called a trustee today to see if they do debt lawyering or can recommend someone who does. My plan is to talk to a professional and see what options we have, if any.

If I understand correctly, the Credit Counselling Society is the Canadian equivalent of the National Foundation for Credit Counseling (and are also listed as being an International affiliate of the NFCC). So I'd definitely start there if I were you. They won't steer you wrong.

[GreenGoo]

Thanks AB, I've been kind of rudderless. When you're out of your element, sometimes easy and simple things like a google search never occur, like it didn't here.

I blame it on my attention being focused on several directions at once, and not giving this my complete attention. My first response was to simply capitulate with the lawyer's demands, it was only an afterthought to wonder if I have any options here.

Again, thank you for doing the legwork for me. Much appreciated.

[GreenGoo]

Last Friday I left a message with the lawyer I use for real estate sales to see if she does any debt work or has someone in her office who does. No response yet. I'm not hopeful.

I've called a trustee today to see if they do debt lawyering or can recommend someone who does. My plan is to talk to a professional and see what options we have, if any.

Still no response from the first.

Second responded but wasn't too sure about how to help or what advice to give me. Apparently they are an accounting firm that does bankruptcies and consumer proposals. How they can be in that business but not have any helpful advice on a cc balance in default confuses me, but it doesn't matter.

Third, I spoke directly with the people AB posted (thanks again AB) and we've arranged for a 45 minute counseling session tonight with my wife and I over the phone. Time is pressing so the phone call was the fastest way for them to help me. Looking forward to it.

The focus will be on the cc, the debt, the court filing, and options for handling those. They offer all sorts of finance advice but this is essentially an emergency session specific to the lawsuit. I hope it's fruitful. I'm looking forward to it, as I fully expect to have a plan that I can action when the call ends, even if that plan is to simply do what I'm told by the lawyers.

[GreenGoo]

Call went well. He disabused me of some notions and made a path forward clear. I need to file some documentation with the court by the end of the week and wait for a court date. After that it will be to meet with the judge and creditor's lawyer, discuss possible options, propose one that is almost certainly going to be accepted by the creditor because it results in them being paid in full, and then live with the fact that I won't own my house for an additional number of years.

In general that was a lot of confirming what I already knew, clarifying what I expected, and learning a few new things that are specific to being sued.

Nothing concrete in that it was all discussion and advice, but it helped solidify a plan of action (with regard to the short term problem of the lawsuit).

[GreenGoo]

Things are getting a bit stickier.

I've had a line of credit for over a decade. I never use it. For some reason, unlike a credit card, my bank makes the loc dormant after a certain period of time and requires me to take steps (mostly just call them) to keep it active. Usually after years of inactivity. It has happened to me once before, and a simple phone call rectified the situation.

Last month when I made my CC payment and looked around my account online bankking, the LoC was happily sitting there unused. I planned on draining it today and move the funds into my chequing account for use when dealing with the default account. I log in today and the LoC is gone. Like, my chequing account is there, my savings account is there, my CC is there, my investment account is there. LoC? No sign of it. I call them, they say dormant, cancelled. Well turn it back on I say, I only ever have it in case of emergencies, and I'm having an emergency. Sorry, you waited too long to notify us, please REAPPLY for a new LoC.

Jesus Christ. I have to apply for new credit and all the time and bullshit that entails. Sure we did most of it online and sure I was conditionally approved for more than the original LoC until I GO INTO A BRANCH with all my documentation and sign. When will the funds be available? Even if it's 48 or 24 hours, that's a problem because I'm in the middle of being sued and negotiations are underway (more on this later, nothing interesting).

FUCK. YOU. I've used this bank since I was 8 years old and for daily stuff, it's fine. The moment I have something out of the ordinary bam, everything becomes my problem. Just jump through these hoops they say. Every single time.

I need that money. Like, right now, you fuckers. A CC company will let you leave a card unused for years without turning it off. I know, I have one. A LoC? With a bank that I have 3 other accounts with, investments with, RRSP with? We'll just arbitrarily turn it off because you're not using it.

I'm significantly stressed, as other sources of cash are going to take me days to come up with. This was supposed to be an extremely liquid account, cash available fast, lots of it (like ransom money fast). The one day in TEN FUCKING YEARS I want to use a significant portion of it? My bank yanked it out from under me.

The ONLY reason the account exists at all is so that I can use it in situations like this.

God damn it.

[Blackhawk]

I don't know if you want to mess with it, but when you go in, consider asking for a manager. It sounds like you have sizable accounts with them. A decent manager will turn summersaults to keep a customer like you happy.

[Isgrimnur]

Find a credit union.

[Anonymous Bosch]

Find a credit union.

Amen.

It's always amazed me how often people remain stubbornly loyal to megabanks that overcharge for everything, and treat their customers like crap.

[GreenGoo]

First off, crisis averted. I'm not going into details about how, but I've got the cash I need to meet my short term obligations for the deal (it's not a deal, it's a 2/3's lump sum now, the rest in 3 weeks) I've offered the lawyers. They are taking it to their corporate overlords. If the corporate overlords accept, I will give them the cash directly onto the CC, which as with any normal payment, will take time to clear. The amount of time it would take me to get a bank draft and send it certified letter and then get back proof of receipt is about equal to what it would take for me to make a standard (albeit large) payment to the card and have it clear. The first means some running around and pita, the latter is an online bank transaction, or 30 seconds total effort.

The goal here is to
a) pay them back
b) get the lawsuit dropped so I don't have to deal with court. I'm still going to be paying the lawsuit lawyer's fees in any event.

If the bank accepts, I probably won't have to file with the court by the end of next week. We'll see.

As for the megabanks, I'm not a fan. I realize they aren't there to help me and are constantly chipping away at my wealth through a million different routes. That said, this is likely the last straw, and I'm gonna pull all my banking from them. I'm not all that concerned about making it a huge spectacle, I just never want to deal with this particular bank ever again. They aren't like some American banks, but they've caused me pain when I needed pain relief, so I'm going elsewhere. Not sure where just yet.

[GreenGoo]

Can I just vent one last time about the LoC?

My online banking has a messaging system. When I log in, they present me with messages about changes in services, promos, things of that nature. Not once did they provide me with a notification through the messaging system (that appears to be purpose built for EXACTLY this sort of thing) that there was an upcoming issue with my LoC.

When we spoke on the phone they said they had sent me a letter. Like, in the mail. I don't do mail on a regular basis any more. I don't even get mail delivery to my single detached family home any more because single families more than 20 feet apart aren't population dense enough for Canada Post to provide home delivery any more. Apparently. I should have asked if I had traveled back in time and if it was 1978 or something.

The last time I fixed this was with a phone call (don't get me started on why the "problem" is artificially generated in the first place). I didn't send them a letter. Wtf do I have online banking if they are we are going to cut down trees just to talk to me?

[Kraken]

Home equity lines usually have a draw period of 10 years and a payback period of 20-30 years. At least that was true of the two that I've had.

Last time I had to renew mine it was basically automatic, but I still had to sit in a banker's cubicle for an hour while she input all the data that hadn't changed since last time. Banks perpetually lag current tech by 5-10 years.

[GreenGoo]

Home equity lines usually have a draw period of 10 years and a payback period of 20-30 years. At least that was true of the two that I've had.

Last time I had to renew mine it was basically automatic, but I still had to sit in a banker's cubicle for an hour while she input all the data that hadn't changed since last time. Banks perpetually lag current tech by 5-10 years.

This was an unsecured line of credit not much different than a credit card, or a loan. It's kind of a mix of the two products. It's there to allow for unrestricted borrowing up to the limit. CC are for goods and services, LoC are for cash.

A home equity loan or refinancing your mortgage or a home backed LoC are entirely different products. The most obvious is that they are backed by your house/real estate, whereas cc and LoC are revolving, unsecured credit (backed by goodwill/good faith).

[Zarathud]

Perhaps the bank found out about your legal troubles via credit report and cancelled the LoC.

[GreenGoo]

Perhaps the bank found out about your legal troubles via credit report and cancelled the LoC.

I don't have any legal troubles. Without my wife's written authorization I'm not even allowed to speak to the bank's lawyers. My credit rating is 828 out of 900. They just agreed to give me a new LoC for almost double what the old one was, at a lower interest rate.

Good guess, but no.

[stessier]

First off, crisis averted. I'm not going into details about how, but I've got the cash I need to meet my short term obligations for the deal

I hope Drazzil isn't gouging you too bad on the interest.

[GreenGoo]

My hope is I can pay him back before the vig gets too big.

[GreenGoo]

Couple of comments this morning.

Clarifying something so there is no confusion.

When I say that I am in no legal trouble it's because I am not. I'm not nitpicking or being pedantic. I couldn't even speak to the lawyers on the phone because they were like "you have no standing in this issue, who are you again?". The cc is in my wife's name and does not show up on my credit report. I've spoken to several establishments regarding borrowing options and everyone is eager to lend me as much as I want.

So when I say I am in no legal trouble, it's because quite literally, I am not.

With that said, OF COURSE I'm responsible for the financial situation as discussed previously in the other thread. I am working diligently towards solving this issue so that court proceedings stop and the debt is removed.

[GreenGoo]

Next up, has anyone heard of a bank putting a hold on the funds when depositing a bank draft? The entire purpose of a bank draft is that the originating bank GUARANTEES the funds. So I took a bank draft to myself from one account of mine (that has no online banking access. Not going into details. It's not nefarious. I know it sounds suspicious, it's not. My wife is aware of it for example) and deposited into my regular account because it was the fastest way to get the funds available without waiting on any bank transfer delays or holds.

The bank I deposited the bank draft with put a hold on the funds until they can contact the originating bank and verify the validity of the bank draft.

That's...insane, right? Like, I'm not being unreasonable by being seriously pissed, am I? I didn't express my displeasure to anyone and my bank is doing everything in it's power to get it validated quickly so I can have access to the funds today. Everything except taking the hold off the funds, I guess.

Does that make sense? Putting a hold on the funds from a deposited bank draft? How is that reasonable? What sort of policy is in place that a bank draft is not immediately treated like depositing cash. You PAY for the privilege of having the originating bank guarantee the funds. The funds are GUARANTEED by the full power of the megabank in question.

So that leaves one thing, from my perspective. They need to verify that the bank draft is not counterfeit and that the deposit is not fraud. I'm not insulted, I don't give a crap. What I do care about is that they either have a policy (or because I'm a suspicious character) that means that bank drafts need to be verified. At which point all the benefits of doing a bank draft and not a simple account transfer between banks is lost, but it still costs me the bank draft fee.

I'm not insane, right? This is bogus?

[Isgrimnur]

You're insane. Bank holds are a regular thing. In the US, it's national law to disclose and the maximums.

Regulation CC states when deposits of various types must be made available to your customers, measured in business days following the banking day on which the deposit is made.

I had my credit union put a 7-day hold on my car insurance settlement check.

[GreenGoo]

It's a bank draft.

AKA a certified cheque.

If they are going to put a hold on a certified cheque, why bother certifying it? Just use a regular cheque.

edit: I skimmed your link. Apparently in America (and possibly Canada, I don't know) you can hand a teller cash, then immediately ask for it back and the bank isn't required (or possibly even required NOT to give it to you) to give it to you until the next day.

That's fucked up.

I guess I'm an ignorant hick.

[Isgrimnur]

The following types of deposits must be made available on the first business day following the banking day of deposit ("next-day availability"):
...
2. Electronic payments received by your institution for deposit in an account--An electronic payment (a wire transfer or an ACH credit) is considered received (deposited) when your institution has received both payment in collected funds and information on the account and the amount to be credited. (Under other rules, funds for most electronic deposits are made available on the day of deposit.)
...
7. Cashier's, certified, or teller's checks deposited in person to one of your employees and into an account held by a payee of the check. (Note: If the customer desires next-day availability of funds from these checks, you may require use of a special deposit slip.)
...
Exceptions: When deposits of types 1, 4, 5, 6, and 7 are not made in person (for example, when they are made at one of your ATMs), the funds must be made available by the second business day. Deposits, cash or check, made at an ATM that you do not own (a "nonproprietary" ATM) must be made available by the fifth business day.
...
Deposits of cash and electronic payments are not eligible for exception holds. The six types of deposits that are eligible are

Large deposits (greater than $5,000)--Any amount exceeding $5,000 may be held. Your institution must make the first $5,000 of the deposit available for withdrawal according to your availability policy and the remainder within the "reasonable" time frames discussed above.

[coopasonic]

Fraud happens. It's a piece of paper. It needs to be verified. Banks are archaic, slow institutions and (even sensible) rules and regulations don't make them faster.

On the cash comment, AML. We have to make money laundering take at least a little effort.

[Isgrimnur]

Ignorant, sure. Hick is not in evidence. It's not your area of expertise. As someone that works for a financial institution, I have had to implement software rules around mobile deposit checks, so I work with the people that have to know all the rules.

[GreenGoo]

Fraud happens. It's a piece of paper. It needs to be verified. Banks are archaic, slow institutions and (even sensible) rules and regulations don't make them faster.

Yawn. So is cash. They don't call the treasury every time. If you're implying they are examining every bill that comes in before releasing the funds, that's also obviously not true.

For the record I've received large cheques from the federal government at multiple times in my life and the funds have always been released immediately, and those cheques aren't even "certified" in the traditional sense. I get that governments are different. But not *that* different from a mega-corporation in this context.

[Isgrimnur]

They do when it's out of the ordinary. Suspicious Activity Report

[GreenGoo]

Ignorant, sure. Hick is not in evidence. It's not your area of expertise. As someone that works for a financial institution, I have had to implement software rules around mobile deposit checks, so I work with the people that have to know all the rules.

I was hoping someone here worked with/at/for banks and could shed some light. Now I just have to re-arrange some synapses to find this acceptable, instead of old man yelling at clouds anger inducing.

As it turns out, I received more leeway than I was expecting with the lawyers, so waiting a day or 3 for the funds to clear is no longer a problem.

[GreenGoo]

They do when it's out of the ordinary. Suspicious Activity Report

Well duh. Not as a default policy though, and that was my point.

[coopasonic]

As it turns out, I received more leeway than I was expecting with the lawyers, so waiting a day or 3 for the funds to clear is no longer a problem.

Conveniently, lawyers for banks know how banks work.

I've worked IT in various areas of finance (auto, mortgage, commercial bank, atm, credit card) for a little over 20 years now. I've never actually worked in retail banking (banking for private individuals), but I've picked up an awful lot along the way... and have had to take hundreds (yeah, literally hundreds) of hours of training around compliance and regulation.

[Isgrimnur]

Always good to know what to do in a bank robbery, right? And how about those dual control restrictions? How many days after an adverse action do they get to request their credit report for free?

[GreenGoo]

Yeah, and I'm just some dude, you know?

Seriously though, if I'm going to have to wait 24 hours for funds from a certified cheque, and 48-72 hours for a regular cheque, I'm not going to bother with a certified cheque. The situations where 24 hours is acceptable but 48-72 is not are so few in my experience that it's not worth the bank draft fee, imo.

I've been operating under the delusion that bank drafts are as good as cash, that's why everyone wants certified payment (note: this is not in reference to my financial situation. I'm going to be making an online transaction, no certification required) when it matters.

I guess I owe you guys thanks for disabusing (my new favourite word, been working it into a lot of posts lately. Don't write any anon op-eds with it, please!) of my misconceptions.

[Isgrimnur]

No worries. Most of us don't have the good old boy network that our parents had to guide us through these types of things. If we don't share our knowledge with our friends and acquaintances, how else are we ever going to be tricked into social interaction?

[GreenGoo]

Unforeseen hiccup. I am unable to make the payment to the CC that I agreed to when speaking with the lawyer due to the size of the payment being restricted by my bank.

i.e. It's over my online daily payment limit.

As I need to produce a confirmation number to pass along to the lawyer as soon as the payment completes, with the assumption being that it would be made asap, I am somewhat stressed. Middling stressed.

Presumably I can go into a branch and make the payment there, which I will now attempt. If there are other roadblocks when I get there, stress levels will rise into chest pains zone.

[Paingod]

Lawyers dealing with people that have money troubles should be patient with money troubles.

[Isgrimnur]

You may be able to request a temporary limit increase by phone.