Octopus Overlords

Pyperkub wrote: ↑Wed Jan 23, 2019 2:13 pm

noxiousdog wrote: ↑Wed Jan 23, 2019 1:14 pm 5 facts about James Harden's scoring.

1. Harden would still lead the league in scoring even if free throws didn’t count.
2. Harden would still lead the league in scoring even if the 3-point line disappeared.
3. Harden is obliterating precedent by scoring so many unassisted buckets.
4. Harden scored 50-plus points four times in his first 41 games. In the 2010s, there is only one other instance of a player scoring 50 in more than one such game in his first half of the season. It was Harden last season, when he tallied three.
5. Harden has remained as efficient as ever despite amplifying his volume to previously unseen levels.

Even if isolation basketball isn't aesthetically pleasing, , Harden is crazy efficient at scoring and really good at it.

and yet, they are just .500 in January during the streak.

That's what happens when 3 of your four best players are injured.

It also makes me wonder what his teammates think of clearly not being so involved in the offense.

They are involved, they just aren't very good.

Yeah, I get that they have a lot of injuries, and it's only January, but I'd like to see him expend more effort on the defensive side, and maybe in getting others involved, making them better.

Especially when he's mouthing off to TJ McConnell of the Sixers that he can't guard him. Who cares when the Sixers win by 30? Scoreboard.

Pyperkub wrote: ↑Wed Jan 23, 2019 4:32 pm Yeah, I get that they have a lot of injuries, and it's only January, but I'd like to see him expend more effort on the defensive side, and maybe in getting others involved, making them better.

For reference, Harden's has 8.3 assists per game this year and that's been over 7 per game since '14-'15 and he led the league (11.2) in '16-'17. He's not the ball hog that Kobe (3 years over 6) and Jordan (two years over 6) were.

His defense isn't as bad as advertised. He's really good in the post, picks up 2 steals a game to go with 6 rebounds. He'll never make an all-NBA team, but he's not a turnstile, nor does he have to be hidden like Curry.

Especially when he's mouthing off to TJ McConnell of the Sixers that he can't guard him. Who cares when the Sixers win by 30? Scoreboard.

That game was really chippy, but I hate that in all sports. If you're getting your ass kicked, you shouldn't smack talk.

Harden's not even the best offensive player and he plays no real defense at all. He stands next to players to get cheap fouls and thinks way more of himself for someone who's never been to an NBA Finals. I don't like him as a player even if he is from SoCal.

Lorini wrote: ↑Fri Jan 25, 2019 11:56 am Harden's not even the best offensive player and he plays no real defense at all. He stands next to players to get cheap fouls and thinks way more of himself for someone who's never been to an NBA Finals. I don't like him as a player even if he is from SoCal.

I see neadnek's uninformed smack talk homer opinions are rubbing off on you.

Which value are you using for best offensive player? He's the leader in scoring (by 7 points!), 5th in assists, only guard in the top 5 of player efficiency rating (ranked 2 overall), 1st in overall win shares, 1st in offensive win shares, 1st in box plus/minus, and 1st in VORP, while leading in minutes per game.

Oh, and he's so terrible on defense he's 3rd in steals... 2 behind Westbrook and 10 ahead of Fox and Holiday.

I'm using the linked to advanced stats. I'm finding OO to be fairly allergic to advanced stats, people seem to be wanting to go along with the stats they are fed instead of looking at more comprehensive stats. I got started with advanced stats through baseball, but now I use them to form my opinions with the NFL and the NBA as well.

noxiousdog wrote: ↑Fri Jan 25, 2019 4:03 pm

Lorini wrote: ↑Fri Jan 25, 2019 11:56 am Harden's not even the best offensive player and he plays no real defense at all. He stands next to players to get cheap fouls and thinks way more of himself for someone who's never been to an NBA Finals. I don't like him as a player even if he is from SoCal.

I see neadnek's uninformed smack talk homer opinions are rubbing off on you.

Which value are you using for best offensive player? He's the leader in scoring (by 7 points!), 5th in assists, only guard in the top 5 of player efficiency rating (ranked 2 overall), 1st in overall win shares, 1st in offensive win shares, 1st in box plus/minus, and 1st in VORP, while leading in minutes per game.

Oh, and he's so terrible on defense he's 3rd in steals... 2 behind Westbrook and 10 ahead of Fox and Holiday.

The problem with all of this is that his usage rate is off the charts. The way he plays, and the way Houston uses him grossly distorts his stats.

Despite that, he’s undeniably a total beast *right now* at putting the ball in the hoop. On the other hand, until he breaks through in the playoffs the “right now” caveat is going to stick.

geezer wrote: ↑Sat Jan 26, 2019 11:35 pm The problem with all of this is that his usage rate is off the charts. The way he plays, and the way Houston uses him grossly distorts his stats.

That's what makes it interesting. Even at his usage rate, he's still one of the most efficient scorers. Typically it doesn't scale. Neither Kobe nor Jordan, despite similar free throw attempts, were as efficient. Yes, part of that is modern use of the 3 pointer and Harden taking it to an extreme, but he's not just an outside shooter. He gets to the basket too.

Despite that, he’s undeniably a total beast *right now* at putting the ball in the hoop. On the other hand, until he breaks through in the playoffs the “right now” caveat is going to stick.

These narratives are fun. It's always true until it's not. Still, he might always be stuck behind super teams in the West. It's the nature of the NBA. If Kawai Leonard winds up in LA with Labron, that's clearly a better duo than Harden and Paul. And oh yeah, there's that team up in San Francisco.

Soooooo if the Pelicans trade The Brow to the Lakers will the GM's sue? The Brow doesn't want to be on the Pelicans anymore, he wants to be on a team that could win a championship. Now I'll be the first to agree that the Lakers as constituted probably are not that team but it would be pretty major for The Brow to be with LeBron.

Lorini wrote: ↑Mon Jan 28, 2019 1:56 pm Soooooo if the Pelicans trade The Brow to the Lakers will the GM's sue? The Brow doesn't want to be on the Pelicans anymore, he wants to be on a team that could win a championship. Now I'll be the first to agree that the Lakers as constituted probably are not that team but it would be pretty major for The Brow to be with LeBron.

Unless there are injuries, that would be the basis for a super team. Would you give up Ingram and Ball to get him? I say yes, but please not Kuzma!

geezer wrote: ↑Sat Jan 26, 2019 11:35 pm

noxiousdog wrote: ↑Fri Jan 25, 2019 4:03 pm

Lorini wrote: ↑Fri Jan 25, 2019 11:56 am Harden's not even the best offensive player and he plays no real defense at all. He stands next to players to get cheap fouls and thinks way more of himself for someone who's never been to an NBA Finals. I don't like him as a player even if he is from SoCal.

I see neadnek's uninformed smack talk homer opinions are rubbing off on you.

Which value are you using for best offensive player? He's the leader in scoring (by 7 points!), 5th in assists, only guard in the top 5 of player efficiency rating (ranked 2 overall), 1st in overall win shares, 1st in offensive win shares, 1st in box plus/minus, and 1st in VORP, while leading in minutes per game.

Oh, and he's so terrible on defense he's 3rd in steals... 2 behind Westbrook and 10 ahead of Fox and Holiday.

The problem with all of this is that his usage rate is off the charts. The way he plays, and the way Houston uses him grossly distorts his stats.

Despite that, he’s undeniably a total beast *right now* at putting the ball in the hoop. On the other hand, until he breaks through in the playoffs the “right now” caveat is going to stick.

Yeah, while they have been using the excuse that they would have beaten the Warriors last year in Game 5 if CP3 had been healthy, the same went for the Warriors and the Igoudala injury regarding Game 4 in Oakland.

In other news, it appears as if any thoughts that adding Boogie Cousins to the Warriors could backfire and ruin the way they play and/or their chemistry appear to be completely unfounded. They are rolling...

noxiousdog wrote: ↑Fri Jan 25, 2019 4:03 pm

Lorini wrote: ↑Fri Jan 25, 2019 11:56 am Harden's not even the best offensive player and he plays no real defense at all. He stands next to players to get cheap fouls and thinks way more of himself for someone who's never been to an NBA Finals. I don't like him as a player even if he is from SoCal.

I see neadnek's uninformed smack talk homer opinions are rubbing off on you.

Excuse me? My homer opinions are factual and informational thank you very much. Dodgers can't win a world series no matter who they bring in.

Pyperkub wrote: ↑Mon Jan 28, 2019 2:36 pm In other news, it appears as if any thoughts that adding Boogie Cousins to the Warriors could backfire and ruin the way they play and/or their chemistry appear to be completely unfounded. They are rolling...

Are we jumping to conclusions yet??

Lorini wrote: ↑Mon Jan 28, 2019 5:09 pm

Pyperkub wrote: ↑Mon Jan 28, 2019 2:36 pm In other news, it appears as if any thoughts that adding Boogie Cousins to the Warriors could backfire and ruin the way they play and/or their chemistry appear to be completely unfounded. They are rolling...

Are we jumping to conclusions yet??

I did say appear

noxiousdog wrote: ↑Mon Jan 28, 2019 11:00 am

geezer wrote: ↑Sat Jan 26, 2019 11:35 pm The problem with all of this is that his usage rate is off the charts. The way he plays, and the way Houston uses him grossly distorts his stats.

That's what makes it interesting. Even at his usage rate, he's still one of the most efficient scorers. Typically it doesn't scale. Neither Kobe nor Jordan, despite similar free throw attempts, were as efficient. Yes, part of that is modern use of the 3 pointer and Harden taking it to an extreme, but he's not just an outside shooter. He gets to the basket too.

For sure. As I said, you'll have no argument from me on that. (And by the way, I think of Kobe as vastly overrated. Someone - ESPN, or Grantland back in the day, or something - looked at his "crunch time" stats and he came out looking pretty damn bad.)

Despite that, he’s undeniably a total beast *right now* at putting the ball in the hoop. On the other hand, until he breaks through in the playoffs the “right now” caveat is going to stick.

These narratives are fun. It's always true until it's not.

Right, but it's not just a narrative that's true until it's not. I'd argue that his high usage rate, even though he remains efficient, becomes an actual hinderance in the playoffs where a) he's already worn down by so much work over the season, and b) the teams that get deep into the playoffs are better at defending, switching, and avoiding giving cheap fouls.

geezer wrote: ↑Tue Jan 29, 2019 7:15 pm Right, but it's not just a narrative that's true until it's not. I'd argue that his high usage rate, even though he remains efficient, becomes an actual hinderance in the playoffs where a) he's already worn down by so much work over the season, and b) the teams that get deep into the playoffs are better at defending, switching, and avoiding giving cheap fouls.

That's why it would have been awesome if Paul hadn't gotten hurt

noxiousdog wrote: ↑Tue Jan 29, 2019 11:04 pm

geezer wrote: ↑Tue Jan 29, 2019 7:15 pm Right, but it's not just a narrative that's true until it's not. I'd argue that his high usage rate, even though he remains efficient, becomes an actual hinderance in the playoffs where a) he's already worn down by so much work over the season, and b) the teams that get deep into the playoffs are better at defending, switching, and avoiding giving cheap fouls.

That's why it would have been awesome if Paul hadn't gotten hurt

Yep. I'm also more than a little curious about what would have happened if Kawhi hadn't gotten hurt the year before when SA was rolling GSW in game one of the WC finals. I think in both cases a stacked SAS or HOU team would have put up more of a fight than say, the Cavs.

geezer wrote: ↑Wed Jan 30, 2019 5:42 pm

noxiousdog wrote: ↑Tue Jan 29, 2019 11:04 pm

geezer wrote: ↑Tue Jan 29, 2019 7:15 pm Right, but it's not just a narrative that's true until it's not. I'd argue that his high usage rate, even though he remains efficient, becomes an actual hinderance in the playoffs where a) he's already worn down by so much work over the season, and b) the teams that get deep into the playoffs are better at defending, switching, and avoiding giving cheap fouls.

That's why it would have been awesome if Paul hadn't gotten hurt

Yep. I'm also more than a little curious about what would have happened if Kawhi hadn't gotten hurt the year before when SA was rolling GSW in game one of the WC finals. I think in both cases a stacked SAS or HOU team would have put up more of a fight than say, the Cavs.

It is nice to see the East finally has some teams other than Lebron.

stessier wrote: ↑Thu Jan 31, 2019 5:29 pm Porzingis was traded to the Mavs.

The NBA has some really weird trades. Why would the Knicks do this?

They should have cap room for 2 max contracts in the offseason. There's been a lot of speculation that Durant would be one.

But I have no idea why anyone would want to play there.

stessier wrote: ↑Thu Jan 31, 2019 5:33 pm They should have cap room for 2 max contracts in the offseason. There's been a lot of speculation that Durant would be one.

But I have no idea why anyone would want to play there.

Trading a legit all-star for cap space seems... unwise.

noxiousdog wrote: ↑Thu Jan 31, 2019 5:31 pm

stessier wrote: ↑Thu Jan 31, 2019 5:29 pm Porzingis was traded to the Mavs.

The NBA has some really weird trades. Why would the Knicks do this?

Because they're the Knicks.

noxiousdog wrote: ↑Thu Jan 31, 2019 5:34 pm

stessier wrote: ↑Thu Jan 31, 2019 5:33 pm They should have cap room for 2 max contracts in the offseason. There's been a lot of speculation that Durant would be one.

But I have no idea why anyone would want to play there.

Trading a legit all-star for cap space seems... unwise.

See pr0ner's response.

If you're not contending, the only reason to keep a huge salary star is if the fans demand it to put butts in the seats. If attendance is not an issue, save the cash, maybe gain a draft pick or two, and pine for the day you can land at least 3 bonafide stars...the minimum it seems to field a legitimate contender these days.

noxiousdog wrote: ↑Thu Jan 31, 2019 5:31 pm

stessier wrote: ↑Thu Jan 31, 2019 5:29 pm Porzingis was traded to the Mavs.

The NBA has some really weird trades. Why would the Knicks do this?

The Knicks would have traded away Michael Jordan if they had him.

Jeff V wrote: ↑Thu Jan 31, 2019 8:02 pm If you're not contending, the only reason to keep a huge salary star is if the fans demand it to put butts in the seats. If attendance is not an issue, save the cash, maybe gain a draft pick or two, and pine for the day you can land at least 3 bonafide stars...the minimum it seems to field a legitimate contender these days.

Porzingas isn't a huge salary star. He's still on his first contract.

Kobe is right. The Rockets will not win the championship with Harden playing like that. They'll just shut you down in the playoffs. The games are reffed differently in the playoffs. Noting that I dislike Harden, I don't think he cares. It's all about him.

I probably wouldn't even mind Harden if he would shave off that beard.

Lorini wrote: ↑Tue Feb 05, 2019 10:14 am Kobe is right. The Rockets will not win the championship with Harden playing like that. They'll just shut you down in the playoffs. The games are reffed differently in the playoffs. Noting that I dislike Harden, I don't think he cares. It's all about him.

Of course they won't win playing like that. Lebron is the only guy that's been able to carry a team to that degree and he lost every time when nobody else stepped up in the finals.

Saying it's all about him is ridiculous though. Notable selfish guy Dwight Howard is the only guy that has complained about Harden.

lol @ Kobe pontificating on the selfish star player, and gentle questioning of a fellow forum member who’s a fan of Kobe but thinks Harden plays hero ball.

On second thought he can keep the beard. It's like an oath out of a fantasy novel: "By Harden's beard!"

geezer wrote: ↑Tue Feb 05, 2019 11:36 am lol @ Kobe pontificating on the selfish star player, and gentle questioning of a fellow forum member who’s a fan of Kobe but thinks Harden plays hero ball.

Wait, Lorini likes Kobe?

I don't have a rolly eyes big enough then.

Hmmm, third highest (or maybe fourth now) scorer ever in the NBA? Five rings? Won with two different Big X's (as in Big Three but Kobe only had himself and one other for his rings)? Scored 81 points in a game where the Lakers were trailing until he scored his 77th point?? Five hour a day workout wonk? Yep I like him, I like him a lot. Even Harden admitted the Rockets can't win a championship with the way he's playing. Again not sure if Harden cares? Harden gets in the way of guys to get his fouls, I think that's cheap. He doesn't actually PLAY defense, I've already posted the advanced stats that show that. Just because players don't call out other players on stuff doesn't mean it doesn't happen. I mean come on, scoring as much as Harden scores means he's keeping the ball yes? Now whether or not that's selfish is a matter of opinion I'm sure. The only time I would call a player selfish is if he kept the ball when better scorers were on the floor and that's not the case with the Rockets. Kobe always knew that he couldn't do it alone, he must have cried tears of joy when they signed Gasol, the perfect pairing and they went to the Finals three times together.

Harden's beard is ugly but there's worse out there, I'm fine with it.

5 rings on the back of Shaquille O'Neal (which highlights Kobe's selfishness on a massive scale... running off one of the greatest players of all time) and a Jerry West gift trade.

A effect shooting percentage of .482.
Less than 5 assists per game.

Oh yeah, and a rapist.


Just because you don't think he plays defense doesn't make it true. How can you "not play defense" with 4 seasons in the top 10 in steals and 4th amongst guards in rebounding? Or just use your advanced stats.

Damn y’all. Let’s not get personal.

How ‘bout you both just bag on Tim Duncan or David Robinson.

geezer wrote: ↑Tue Feb 05, 2019 5:56 pm Damn y’all. Let’s not get personal.

How ‘bout you both just bag on Tim Duncan or David Robinson.

Proof that tanking pays

noxiousdog wrote: ↑Tue Feb 05, 2019 5:45 pm 5 rings on the back of Shaquille O'Neal <snip>

Made me think for a second that maybe him and Marv Albert had a fling.

noxiousdog wrote: ↑Tue Feb 05, 2019 6:00 pm

geezer wrote: ↑Tue Feb 05, 2019 5:56 pm Damn y’all. Let’s not get personal.

How ‘bout you both just bag on Tim Duncan or David Robinson.

Proof that tanking pays