Toxic Masculinity

[Kurth]

Context: I generally recoil from this phrase. As a guy, after I hear it, my defenses just kind of get raised almost automatically. I know it exists, but my de facto position is that it’s almost always overused.

So, I’m traveling for work and am not necessarily at my best. Took a red eye cross country last night, got two hours sleep this morning, had a crazy day, now flying back to the west coast this evening.

But two things coincided today to make me think about this.

First, I’ve been listening to an amazing podcast (“Gladiator”) from the Boston Globe Spotlight team on Aaron Hernandez. I always thought he was just some wannabe gangster punk, but I think the real story is so much more complicated. His father seems to have instilled in him a notion of masculinity that was both toxic and also deeply ill-suited to who he was. Hearing about his bisexuality fron his HS QB teammate was eye opening. The contrast between that and the messages his father was delivering day to day, both verbally and physically, are so jarring, I cannot imagine what that did to him as a kid and young adult.

Second, I was at a bar in JFK waiting to board. The bartender was attractive (I noticed) and appropriately friendly. We had talked a bit, she seemed very cool. I admired her. Then, this guy walks up, doesn’t even sit down and asks for a Sam Adams. She gets it for him and asks if he wants to close out. He says yes to her, then leans over to me and says, “Wish I could stay. She’s smoking hot. Right?”

I wish I said something meaningful inredpobse. Like, “Who the fuck are you? And why are you saying this stupid and shitty thing to me?” but I didn’t do that. I pretty much ignored him or, maybe even gave him a slight head nod in response.

I feel shitty about that.

[Blackhawk]

I see it a lot. I think it is more apparent if you don't subscribe to the typical view of 'masculine.' I'm male, 6'1 with facial hair and wide shoulders, and I'm straight, but I'm anything but what this culture defines as 'masculine.' Michelle and I joke that we're such a good couple because she's a good man and I'm a good woman. But the assumptions people make about how you act, and the way people - both men and women - recoil from you in either disgust or contempt when you don't act that way can be staggering. It probably doesn't help that I'm in the midwest, in an area where attitudes are firmly in the 1950s. Michelle was actually told once that she was hurting our kids because I stayed home with them while she worked, because a man could never be nurturing. And this was by a group of adult women.

The cubby hole is only so blatantly obvious when you're outside looking in.

[Default]

"She's smokin' hot!"

"Yeah, she seems to be a nice person."

[dbt1949]

I've never heard of the term "Toxic Masculinity" before. I just considered such people "assholes".

[Isgrimnur]

I've never heard of the term "Toxic Masculinity" before. I just considered such people "assholes".

Much like 'shell shock' has morphed into 'post-traumatic stress disorder'.

[Kurth]

"She's smokin' hot!"

"Yeah, she seems to be a nice person."

Yeah, but not quite. That would have been pretty hypocritical of me.

I don’t really know if she was nice or not. My interactions with her were pretty limited. I had two thoughts while I was sitting there before douchebag showed up with his stupid unsolicited comments: (1) She was, in fact, pretty hot; and (2) she was working really hard at a difficult job and excelling at it

Then, after DB made his comment, my third thought was, how lousy it is that she probably encounters dozens of guys like this every week while she’s just trying to do her job and earn some money.

[DD*]

I’m with debt though - no need for some fancy name when we have jerk or asshole or any number of perfectly fine descriptions already.

[Z-Corn]

I have internal struggles with this subject.

I was raised to respect people and to see people as people first, before seeing them as a gender. My Mother was a strong Women's Libber.

The events of the recent past have made me take a look at myself and ask if I'm doing enough.

I have a co-worker that I don't see too often, maybe a couple times a month. If a women is the subject of his conversation he always feels the need to comment on her physical attributes as an aside to his story. No description of a women is complete without mentioning "How nice her tits are" or "What a nice turd-cutter she has". If a women walks by he will nudge me and point to her. Fuckin' POINT like she's on display.

And I sigh and say nothing. I need this guy's help on projects and I'm afraid I won't get it anymore.

I don't stand up and say anything and I know I should. I'm as much of a problem as he is, maybe more.

[Lorini]

Can you report him to HR? He’s creating a hostile work environment and most companies will dump him in a hot second.

[Trent Steel]

First, I’ve been listening to an amazing podcast (“Gladiator”) from the Boston Globe Spotlight team on Aaron Hernandez. I always thought he was just some wannabe gangster punk, but I think the real story is so much more complicated. His father seems to have instilled in him a notion of masculinity that was both toxic and also deeply ill-suited to who he was. Hearing about his bisexuality fron his HS QB teammate was eye opening. The contrast between that and the messages his father was delivering day to day, both verbally and physically, are so jarring, I cannot imagine what that did to him as a kid and young adult.

Unrelated to the original topic, but this reminded me of the docu-series “I Am A Killer” on Netflix. It’s about convicts who are/were on death row and an in-depth look at how they got there. It shows a lot of factors in their lives you normally don’t think of or care about when you hear of a “death row inmate”. If you’re interested in that type of thing, I highly recommend it.

[RunningMn9]

It does seem that many more people are realizing shit like this of late. It's been going on forever, with people just kind of ignoring it. A friend of mine recently showed up for an appointment to meet someone for business reasons, and the guy opened with a rape joke about his female employees. While it would have been awesome to shut this fool down, you can get shocked into silence. People are awful.

[Z-Corn]

Can you report him to HR? He’s creating a hostile work environment and most companies will dump him in a hot second.

Our work situation is kind of convoluted. We are contractors and not directly employed by the bank we service. Our company and the rest of our team is located on the other side of the state. There is no HR Department, the owners of my firm handle everything. The Bank's HR Department wouldn't stand for this behavior but they have no power over him.

I've started letting hints out to our boss but again, she's hundreds of miles away and I only see her every few months. The two of us are an outpost and I really do need his help to do my job. I'm a coward who doesn't want to rock the boat.

[Blackhawk]

Asshole is a nice word. But asshole applies to so many things that it's hard to discuss this as a social issue if don't use something more specific.

[GreenGoo]

As an aside, Google news decided I should see a BBC article about toxic masculinity shortly after I read this thread on my android phone.

While it could be coincidence as I read a lot of BBC articles, it's probably not.

I kind of hate this part of the information age.

[Lorini]

Can you report him to HR? He’s creating a hostile work environment and most companies will dump him in a hot second.

Our work situation is kind of convoluted. We are contractors and not directly employed by the bank we service. Our company and the rest of our team is located on the other side of the state. There is no HR Department, the owners of my firm handle everything. The Bank's HR Department wouldn't stand for this behavior but they have no power over him.

I've started letting hints out to our boss but again, she's hundreds of miles away and I only see her every few months. The two of us are an outpost and I really do need his help to do my job. I'm a coward who doesn't want to rock the boat.

The Bank cannot tolerate a hostile work environment period, personnel or contractors. And the contract will state basically that the contractors have to comply with the law which will include hostile work environments. If a complaint is made to the Bank they will notify the contract manager of your contract (presumably the owner) and your owner will have to discipline the guy.

It's up to you of course, and if you want to be cowardly about it then that's a decision you have to make. I was cowardly once, but it kept happening and I finally stood up to the crap men were saying and they were disciplined and no more crap.

[Skinypupy]

I have internal struggles with this subject.

I was raised to respect people and to see people as people first, before seeing them as a gender. My Mother was a strong Women's Libber.

The events of the recent past have made me take a look at myself and ask if I'm doing enough.

I have a co-worker that I don't see too often, maybe a couple times a month. If a women is the subject of his conversation he always feels the need to comment on her physical attributes as an aside to his story. No description of a women is complete without mentioning "How nice her tits are" or "What a nice turd-cutter she has". If a women walks by he will nudge me and point to her. Fuckin' POINT like she's on display.

And I sigh and say nothing. I need this guy's help on projects and I'm afraid I won't get it anymore.

I don't stand up and say anything and I know I should. I'm as much of a problem as he is, maybe more.

I have a number of colleagues who do the POINT or make comments. I used to not say anything (to avoid rocking the boat), but have started speaking up about it more often. Just a simple "not cool dude" usually puts a quick stop to the behavior.

I will note that there are degrees of magnitude to bad behavior and inappropriate comments. I might let a simple "she's very pretty" slide (although I probably shouldn't), but will speak up every time I hear a "look at her ass" or a Monty Python-style "wink wink nudge nudge".

[mori]

He just needs to know you are not an audience for those type of comments. No need to be brave or confrontational. Just say, "Please keep those comments to yourself." If he is not clueless he will understand the situation and stop.

[Scuzz]

I have internal struggles with this subject.

I was raised to respect people and to see people as people first, before seeing them as a gender. My Mother was a strong Women's Libber.

The events of the recent past have made me take a look at myself and ask if I'm doing enough.

I have a co-worker that I don't see too often, maybe a couple times a month. If a women is the subject of his conversation he always feels the need to comment on her physical attributes as an aside to his story. No description of a women is complete without mentioning "How nice her tits are" or "What a nice turd-cutter she has". If a women walks by he will nudge me and point to her. Fuckin' POINT like she's on display.

And I sigh and say nothing. I need this guy's help on projects and I'm afraid I won't get it anymore.

I don't stand up and say anything and I know I should. I'm as much of a problem as he is, maybe more.

I have a number of colleagues who do the POINT or make comments. I used to not say anything (to avoid rocking the boat), but have started speaking up about it more often. Just a simple "not cool dude" usually puts a quick stop to the behavior.

I will note that there are degrees of magnitude to bad behavior and inappropriate comments. I might let a simple "she's very pretty" slide (although I probably shouldn't), but will speak up every time I hear a "look at her ass" or a Monty Python-style "wink wink nudge nudge".

I would agree there are degrees of "toxic masculinity" and that when or if you react to it you should react based on the degree of shitty behavior.

Not being a woman I wouldn't know but I would bet there is a feminine version of this as well.

[dbt1949]

Or get belligerent.

[gameoverman]

My understanding of 'toxic masculinity' is that it's used to describe a specific kind of asshole, so it doesn't mean the same thing as asshole. Examples:
1. A guy at work tells me how hot he thinks a female co-worker is, that's not toxic masculinity.
2. A guy at work tells the female co-worker how hot he thinks she is, that's toxic masculinity.

This assumes I'm okay with just letting what he says goes in one ear and out the other. If I have let him know that I consider talk like that unprofessional and I want no part of it, and he still tells me stuff like that, now it's become toxic. The point being you can act 'masculine', as you care to define it, and not be toxic about it. I would equate it to having thoughts and acting on those thoughts. Those are two separate things, the thoughts are one, but acting on them is another. Being masculine is one thing, being masculine in certain ways is toxic.

[Matrix]

My understanding of 'toxic masculinity' is that it's used to describe a specific kind of asshole, so it doesn't mean the same thing as asshole. Examples:
1. A guy at work tells me how hot he thinks a female co-worker is, that's not toxic masculinity.
2. A guy at work tells the female co-worker how hot he thinks she is, that's toxic masculinity.

This assumes I'm okay with just letting what he says goes in one ear and out the other. If I have let him know that I consider talk like that unprofessional and I want no part of it, and he still tells me stuff like that, now it's become toxic. The point being you can act 'masculine', as you care to define it, and not be toxic about it. I would equate it to having thoughts and acting on those thoughts. Those are two separate things, the thoughts are one, but acting on them is another. Being masculine is one thing, being masculine in certain ways is toxic.

Ya, good explanation. There is no exact definition what is "toxic" masculinity, and because there are no boundaries basically anything technically can be "toxic" masculinity. It is very fun hype word, and press loves it. And there will always be extreme examples. Since as somebody have mentioned, there must be something such as female version of that. Yet, none of us know it? For every part there is a counter part. Anything that's not definitely can and will be misinterpreted by some. But the problem is, if you say there is toxic female energy... guess what, you are now officially sexist and how dear you to even suggest that such thing even exists.

Side observations: As somebody who dealt in dating industry, we are in different world now. i would never start a business in dating with current climate. It literally as if guys expect to walk on eggshells, and if anything, it is their fault. I have no idea how guys supposed to approach in this world, since anything he does, can and will be called against him. Want to strike up a conversation? How dear you.

If you are single guy now, good luck. Unless you over 40, dating world will be rough for you. I been out of dating world for few years now, but friends of mine who are single, are hating it. They are well off, good in social skills and yet seems dating apps pretty much put dating world upside down. (i think apps are much more responsible for the current crap dating climate than metoo, or toxic masculinity, these ones are just side gigs to dating apps)

[Skinypupy]

My understanding of 'toxic masculinity' is that it's used to describe a specific kind of asshole, so it doesn't mean the same thing as asshole. Examples:
1. A guy at work tells me how hot he thinks a female co-worker is, that's not toxic masculinity.
2. A guy at work tells the female co-worker how hot he thinks she is, that's toxic masculinity.

This assumes I'm okay with just letting what he says goes in one ear and out the other. If I have let him know that I consider talk like that unprofessional and I want no part of it, and he still tells me stuff like that, now it's become toxic. The point being you can act 'masculine', as you care to define it, and not be toxic about it. I would equate it to having thoughts and acting on those thoughts. Those are two separate things, the thoughts are one, but acting on them is another. Being masculine is one thing, being masculine in certain ways is toxic.

Ya, good explanation. There is no exact definition what is "toxic" masculinity, and because there are no boundaries basically anything technically can be "toxic" masculinity. It is very fun hype word, and press loves it. And there will always be extreme examples. Since as somebody have mentioned, there must be something such as female version of that. Yet, none of us know it? For every part there is a counter part. Anything that's not definitely can and will be misinterpreted by some. But the problem is, if you say there is toxic female energy... guess what, you are now officially sexist and how dear you to even suggest that such thing even exists.

Side observations: As somebody who dealt in dating industry, we are in different world now. i would never start a business in dating with current climate. It literally as if guys expect to walk on eggshells, and if anything, it is their fault. I have no idea how guys supposed to approach in this world, since anything he does, can and will be called against him. Want to strike up a conversation? How dear you.

If you are single guy now, good luck. Unless you over 40, dating world will be rough for you. I been out of dating world for few years now, but friends of mine who are single, are hating it. They are well off, good in social skills and yet seems dating apps pretty much put dating world upside down. (i think apps are much more responsible for the current crap dating climate than metoo, or toxic masculinity, these ones are just side gigs to dating apps)

I doubt it has changed that much. While it's been a long time since I've dated, the same basic principles still seem to apply:

1. Be cool.
2. Be respectful.
3. Don't be a misogynistic douchebag.

What has changed for the better is women's willingness to put up with men who ignore those last two. And since most of the "dating industry" seemed to lean heavily on those two aspects, then I'm sure that industry (and those men who subscribed to their approaches) are having a particularly difficult time right now.

[Matrix]

My understanding of 'toxic masculinity' is that it's used to describe a specific kind of asshole, so it doesn't mean the same thing as asshole. Examples:
1. A guy at work tells me how hot he thinks a female co-worker is, that's not toxic masculinity.
2. A guy at work tells the female co-worker how hot he thinks she is, that's toxic masculinity.

This assumes I'm okay with just letting what he says goes in one ear and out the other. If I have let him know that I consider talk like that unprofessional and I want no part of it, and he still tells me stuff like that, now it's become toxic. The point being you can act 'masculine', as you care to define it, and not be toxic about it. I would equate it to having thoughts and acting on those thoughts. Those are two separate things, the thoughts are one, but acting on them is another. Being masculine is one thing, being masculine in certain ways is toxic.

Ya, good explanation. There is no exact definition what is "toxic" masculinity, and because there are no boundaries basically anything technically can be "toxic" masculinity. It is very fun hype word, and press loves it. And there will always be extreme examples. Since as somebody have mentioned, there must be something such as female version of that. Yet, none of us know it? For every part there is a counter part. Anything that's not definitely can and will be misinterpreted by some. But the problem is, if you say there is toxic female energy... guess what, you are now officially sexist and how dear you to even suggest that such thing even exists.

Side observations: As somebody who dealt in dating industry, we are in different world now. i would never start a business in dating with current climate. It literally as if guys expect to walk on eggshells, and if anything, it is their fault. I have no idea how guys supposed to approach in this world, since anything he does, can and will be called against him. Want to strike up a conversation? How dear you.

If you are single guy now, good luck. Unless you over 40, dating world will be rough for you. I been out of dating world for few years now, but friends of mine who are single, are hating it. They are well off, good in social skills and yet seems dating apps pretty much put dating world upside down. (i think apps are much more responsible for the current crap dating climate than metoo, or toxic masculinity, these ones are just side gigs to dating apps)

I doubt it has changed that much. While it's been a long time since I've dated, the same basic principles still seem to apply:

1. Be cool.
2. Be respectful.
3. Don't be a misogynistic douchebag.

What has changed for the better is women's willingness to put up with men who ignore those last two. And since most of the "dating industry" seemed to lean heavily on those two aspects, then I'm sure that industry (and those men who subscribed to their approaches) are having a particularly difficult time right now.

Nope. The guys who skilled in social, are doing fine. I am talking about average guy. Also you are giving way to much credit to women, they actually just got picker overall due to apps since you can filter on height, looks, etc. There are a lot more women now complaining about not getting prince charming than ever before. Since apps give precived value of success (short term, but not long term) , so basically women filter and find mostly players on apps. But because he is tall, maybe hook up with him is fine after all. So it is average guy who is getting short end of the stick, certainly not players.

[Blackhawk]

Toxic masculinity isn't about how men act, it's about how others - both men and women - expect men to act, and the pressure that it puts on them to act that way. It doesn't just relate to how you deal with women. Hell, that's more of a side effect of it. It isn't about being a toxic male, it is about an idea of masculinity that is toxic. You see it:

Anytime somebody tells someone "act like a man", or "man up."

When parents dissuade their boys from activities that "aren't for boys."

When people look down on a man for showing emotions other than anger.

The idea that men can't understand women because they are biologically incapable of "getting it."

That being the victim of abuse is terrible for women, but shameful in men.

When people look down on a man for liking a romantic comedy, or for not liking football.

When the assumption that the only solution for a male is the aggressive, frequently violent one, and those who avoid that are 'pussies.'

That a man who cheats on his wife is a success, while a woman who cheats is trash.

Any time a man chooses to be something like a homemaker instead of a bread winner and is seen as a failure as a result.

The one that I hate - anytime you hear the phrase "Real men ___" So if I don't, I'm what?

It has a real impact. It discourages men from dealing with issues like abuse and trauma, promoting mental illness. It's at the core of why our legal system treats men the way it does when children are involved in a divorce. It forces men to shut down their emotions instead of being compassionate and nurturing. It forces men to pretend to be 'alpha males' whether that is their nature or not, because if they don't they're treated as failures. It creates assholes.

It is the male equivalent of not letting girls play with GI Joe and putting them in dresses when they want jeans, of forcing them into home-ec instead of auto shop. Women started addressing that attitude decades ago (although they have along way to go.) Men are just starting to recognize that it exists for them, too.

[LawBeefaroni]

Second, I was at a bar in JFK waiting to board. The bartender was attractive (I noticed) and appropriately friendly. We had talked a bit, she seemed very cool. I admired her. Then, this guy walks up, doesn’t even sit down and asks for a Sam Adams. She gets it for him and asks if he wants to close out. He says yes to her, then leans over to me and says, “Wish I could stay. She’s smoking hot. Right?”

I wish I said something meaningful inredpobse. Like, “Who the fuck are you? And why are you saying this stupid and shitty thing to me?” but I didn’t do that. I pretty much ignored him or, maybe even gave him a slight head nod in response.

I feel shitty about that.

There's really nothing to do there. You're not going to knock him out or send some verbal zinger his way that will get him to change his ways. The best you can do in a situation like that is act like you don't know what he's talking about. Just nodding or a polite smile is fine. It's a random stranger saying a dumb thing. Let it go or waste valuable time and cycles agonizing over it. Your call.

As for the bartender, she can probably handle it just fine. She probably has a repertoire of responses that can do everything from shame a guy into leaving or get him to spend way more time and money than he planned. It's good to look out for your bartenders, always. But I don't think she needs to be saved.

[Sudy]

While I think I do have meaningful thoughts on this topic, for now I just had to stop by to say the original post had me thinking "inredpobse" was some kind of fancy foreign term like "l'esprit d'escalier".

"Inredpobse, I always come up with amazing things to say and am frustrated they didn't occur to me in the moment."

[Jeff V]

First, I’ve been listening to an amazing podcast (“Gladiator”) from the Boston Globe Spotlight team on Aaron Hernandez. I always thought he was just some wannabe gangster punk, but I think the real story is so much more complicated. His father seems to have instilled in him a notion of masculinity that was both toxic and also deeply ill-suited to who he was. Hearing about his bisexuality fron his HS QB teammate was eye opening. The contrast between that and the messages his father was delivering day to day, both verbally and physically, are so jarring, I cannot imagine what that did to him as a kid and young adult.

Unrelated to the original topic, but this reminded me of the docu-series “I Am A Killer” on Netflix. It’s about convicts who are/were on death row and an in-depth look at how they got there. It shows a lot of factors in their lives you normally don’t think of or care about when you hear of a “death row inmate”. If you’re interested in that type of thing, I highly recommend it.

James Patterson (and I assume someone else) wrote quite an interesting book on Hernandez. I too thought of him as a "I'm king of the world" kind of punk but he really wasn't all that.

[Holman]

Toxic masculinity isn't about how men act, it's about how others - both men and women - expect men to act, and the pressure that it puts on them to act that way. It doesn't just relate to how you deal with women. Hell, that's more of a side effect of it. It isn't about being a toxic male, it is about an idea of masculinity that is toxic. You see it:

Anytime somebody tells someone "act like a man", or "man up."

When parents dissuade their boys from activities that "aren't for boys."

When people look down on a man for showing emotions other than anger.

The idea that men can't understand women because they are biologically incapable of "getting it."

That being the victim of abuse is terrible for women, but shameful in men.

When people look down on a man for liking a romantic comedy, or for not liking football.

When the assumption that the only solution for a male is the aggressive, frequently violent one, and those who avoid that are 'pussies.'

That a man who cheats on his wife is a success, while a woman who cheats is trash.

Any time a man chooses to be something like a homemaker instead of a bread winner and is seen as a failure as a result.

The one that I hate - anytime you hear the phrase "Real men ___" So if I don't, I'm what?

It has a real impact. It discourages men from dealing with issues like abuse and trauma, promoting mental illness. It's at the core of why our legal system treats men the way it does when children are involved in a divorce. It forces men to shut down their emotions instead of being compassionate and nurturing. It forces men to pretend to be 'alpha males' whether that is their nature or not, because if they don't they're treated as failures. It creates assholes.

It is the male equivalent of not letting girls play with GI Joe and putting them in dresses when they want jeans, of forcing them into home-ec instead of auto shop. Women started addressing that attitude decades ago (although they have along way to go.) Men are just starting to recognize that it exists for them, too.

Good points all.

And the reason there's not a "male feminism" (i.e one aimed at demolishing this ideology) is that the toxic masculine world has rewarded rather than punished toxic masculinity, offloading the social and psychological costs onto women, children, and men unwilling or unable to play the game.

Toxic masculinity has an interest in preserving toxic masculinity, and it has the power to do so.

[Jeff V]

Toxic masculinity has an interest in preserving toxic masculinity, and it has the power to do so.

Not to mention the smoking hot women that appear to be drawn to this sort of person like moths to a light. A friend of mine once told me "the secret to getting women is to be a total asshole." This is from someone who is not, by nature, assholish. I've had numerous (good-looking) women tell me basically the same thing, that I was "too nice." Fortunately, I don't have to swim with the sharks anymore -- it took a damn long time, but holding out on my principles prevailed in the end.

[em2nought]

Smart @sses might unfortunately catch some misdirected fire in this new parallel universe. Oh and comedy, comedy will be dead.
We really will end up with all fart jokes a la Idiocracy LMAO

[Matrix]

Toxic masculinity has an interest in preserving toxic masculinity, and it has the power to do so.

Not to mention the smoking hot women that appear to be drawn to this sort of person like moths to a light. A friend of mine once told me "the secret to getting women is to be a total asshole." This is from someone who is not, by nature, assholish. I've had numerous (good-looking) women tell me basically the same thing, that I was "too nice." Fortunately, I don't have to swim with the sharks anymore -- it took a damn long time, but holding out on my principles prevailed in the end.

This is a biggie, since before we start throwing recently made up phrases like ( toxic musculinity) we have to think on what is it exactly. I like Blackhawk definition, but it addresses only current climate. Yet, we are dealing with what subconsciously drives our attracion, reaction, perception, biology, etc. Jeff hits really well on the layer of motivation. Procreation is a biological function, we are driven by it every day. If there certain traits that makes us more sucsesfull at it, than caution be damned for many. I think the new terms are still ill defined or not at all defined. And how do they tie in with each other? And do they at all? And why? Conceptually we are in a new Era brought in and allowed by technology, new way to communicate, reach and react.

[Moat_Man]

I remember when I was a kid my older brother told me an expression, "Treat 'em mean, keep 'em keen."

I could never do it.

[Blackhawk]

I'd rather be a lonely human than an oversexed asshole.

[McNutt]

I don't get it. What's the big deal that some guy at a bar commented that the bartender is hot?

[Holman]

I don't get it. What's the big deal that some guy at a bar commented that the bartender is hot?

It helps to think of this discussion as a sequel to the Harvey Weinstein thread.

[hepcat]

Smart @sses might unfortunately catch some misdirected fire in this new parallel universe. Oh and comedy, comedy will be dead.
We really will end up with all fart jokes a la Idiocracy LMAO

It's only those who would honestly miss the ability to denigrate, objectify and/or humiliate others based on their sex that will truly lament a post sexist (or at least dangerously unbalanced in that regard) world. Most comics can still make jokes about things that we should know are wrong, but just as they've done throughout history, there's normally an understanding that they're not praising such bad behavior, but rather pointing a spotlight at it and saying it's wrong through sarcasm. The victims aren't the butt of the joke, the victimizer is. And even those who do go to such topics without any apparent social message behind them usually include a level of exaggeration (according to late comic scientist George Carlin) that tells the audience these aren't real life situations that should/could occur.

If none of that fits, you're at an Andrew Dice Clay show.

I also worry about collateral damage as this ship we call society tries to right itself (the recent James Gunn twitter crap being one of them....he was stupid, a fact he even admitted to himself), but I blame the inherent toxicity of social media more than I do a movement that's trying to erase a culture of rape from our world.

After the rise of the Civil Rights movement, there were a lot of white folks who resented black people for a perceived loss of liberty in their ability to have their racism accepted as the societal norm. That's how I see this playing out. We'll always have men that are pissed they can't treat women like crap without fear of being called out for their behavior. But the alternative is far more damaging to our daughters, wives and sisters.

[Paingod]

Not being a woman I wouldn't know but I would bet there is a feminine version of this as well.

Would it be the Feminazi?

I wouldn't use the term the way Rush Limbaugh does (which I discovered in checking to make sure I was using the right word), but instead as a descriptor for women who simply hate men and everything male, and see male agenda even where there isn't any. A feminist theme pushed so hard it's become toxic in itself. If I had a scale and put the concept of Toxic Masculinity at one end, I think the other end would be what I consider a Feminazi.

I sometimes think my wife may be just a couple more bad Toxic Masculinity-driven headlines from fully embracing the dark side of Feminism.

[GreenGoo]

I don't get it. What's the big deal that some guy at a bar commented that the bartender is hot?

It helps to think of this discussion as a sequel to the Harvey Weinstein thread.

At what point is it ok to comment on the physical attractiveness of a woman? If the answer is "never", that's unreasonable, counter to genetics, and quite frankly, insane.

Clearly, not as a fellow employee in a professional work environment, where the work is unrelated to physical appearance.

I don't know about the US, but it is legal for an employer to discriminate based on appearance in Canada. Strip clubs, Hooters, hospitality industry employers in general, make their bread and butter based at least partially on the appearance of their employees. This is fact.

If employers can legally pick and choose who they hire based on looks, and sometimes the job they're hiring for has specific requirements in appearance, then when is it ok for customers to comment on those looks amongst themselves?

I get where Kurth is coming from. He's there just to get a drink, maybe some pleasant conversation (being social is another work requirement in this case) and doesn't want a meathead leching on an employee who is forced to be there and has no freedom to leave, and (potentially) no freedom to tell the guy to take a hike if she doesn't like the way he's looking at her. Kurth is not that dude's friend, and there is no way to know how a stranger is going to react to a random comment. But it's part of her job. You may not like it, and that's fine. Leches are kind of gross in general. But we're talking about a bar here. If it were Hooters would Kurth feel the same way? Clearly, Hooters hires based on physical attractiveness (but not solely based on that). Taking note of that fact is toxic masculinity?

It's totally fine to find leches unpleasant. That's your prerogative. Expecting them to keep their lecherousness to themselves in a bar? Well, good luck with that. Not to mention as McNutt points out, what was the harm in commenting on how hot the employee is to a stranger? Physical attractiveness is one of the reasons she's employed in that job, potentially. It's not like the dude was grossly talking about bending her over the bar and giving her a good rodgering. Is "she's hot, right?" much different from "she's attractive, right?"?

But as said, you are free to feel anyway you want about anyone's behaviour, so have at it. I find leches particularly gross. That said, if you take issue with it, take issue with it for your own sake. Dealing with leches is part of the job, and specifically part of the skill set needed for the job. Being chivalrous is an option, but not being chivalrous is certainly not cowardice.

I'm not confident that trying to tone down how people express their attraction in an environment that is often specifically there for men and women to find each other based almost solely on how physically attractive they are to each other, at least on initial contact, is going to work, or even a worthy or noble endeavour.

Shrug. Men and women find each other hot. That's basic biology. How we express that attraction is certainly worthy of discussion and potentially worthy of changing. However, we need to allow that how that attraction is expressed is going to vary widely. We're not robots, and how we personally feel about someone's attractiveness is going to be different from person to person. If we *never* feel comfortable expressing how we feel, well, I don't think that's a worthwhile goal.

"She's hot, right?" is no different than "She is physically attractive, wouldn't you agree?". If that's a problem for you, then...good luck with that.

At this point I feel it's the old chestnut "anyone who doesn't like what I like is a prude, and anyone who likes what I don't like is a pervert". We each have our own ideas about what is appropriate or not, but we need to allow that not everyone feels the same as we do. Are there lines that shouldn't be crossed? Probably. What those lines are is still being worked on.

[gameoverman]

I don't get it. What's the big deal that some guy at a bar commented that the bartender is hot?

It helps to think of this discussion as a sequel to the Harvey Weinstein thread.

At what point is it ok to comment on the physical attractiveness of a woman? If the answer is "never", that's unreasonable, counter to genetics, and quite frankly, insane.

I don't think there is an absolute rule on that, I think the context of the remark makes all the difference.

If I'm sitting at an airport bar, minding my own business, then that's an entirely different context compared to me hanging out with my friends having drinks. There are legitimate reasons why a stranger might make a comment to me at that bar, such as to ask for help with something, but to comment on how hot the bartender is seems unnecessary and therefore not 'okay'.

Take the sexual element out and see if it's still not okay. A stranger says to me "Have you found Jesus?". You just don't bother random people with certain things.

There's a line between innocuous comments like "Nice weather we're having" and presumptuous comments. The stranger doesn't know me, so why make a comment to me that implies they know something about me or are entitled to know something about me? I might be gay and have no interest in discussing 'hot' women, I might be her brother, I might simply wish to have my drink without being bothered. If the stranger feels empowered to say that to me due to his concept of masculinity and what masculine men say to each other, that would put it in the realm of toxic.

[Kurth]

I think there's a lot to what GreenGoo is saying here: Context matters. Upon further reflection, it wasn't so much that this guy was commenting on the bartender's physical appearance that bothered me, it was the way he was doing it and the setting he was doing it in. This wasn't Hooters. It wasn't even a real bar. It was one of those open-air bar kiosk in the airport on the way to the gate. People weren't there to socialize or to meet people. Definitely not a pick-up scene. Just business travelers trying to kill time before a flight. But this guy - a total stranger - was acting like we were in some kind of fraternity where it was perfectly acceptable to start rating the bartender. Like he and I were on some kind of team, a team that definitely didn't include the bartender he was commenting on.

Edited to add, +1 to what gameoverman just posted. That sums it up nicely.