Avengers: End Game

[Brian]

Spoiler:

Our Gamora is dead, but the new Gamora is the one that existed right before we first met her in Guardians of the Galaxy. She had already decided to prevent Thanos from getting the stones by that point, and was actively withholding the information on where the soul stone is at that point. It’s entirely within her character to flip on him like she did with a slight push from Nebula.

Spoiler:

I'm totally down for Thor being in the the next Guardians where Quill will need to make new Gamora fall for him again.

The thing about that is...

Spoiler:

What exactly happened to Gamora?

When the Guardians (along with Thor) are back on the ship and Quill/Thor have their little back and forth about who is in charge...Gamora is nowhere to be seen.

Did she survive the new snap? Maybe her decision to side with the Avengers saved her life and she's still around somewhere but when we first see Peter back on his ship he's running a search for Gamora on his screen and it just says.."Searching" with no results.

[msteelers]

Spoiler:

Why do you think Nebula is so stupid? She’s not on par with the Starks and Banners of the MCU, but she did immediately understand the rules of time travel just like Banner did.

[Buatha]

Spoiler:

It must suck to have moved on during those five years... remarried... then all of a sudden your "deceased" spouse reappears. That won't end well for anyone involved.

You should then watch the TV series Manifest which, coincidentally, addresses that very situation

[Punisher]

My personal opinion on the cap thing and other questionable data points is...
I find these moves to be exciting, popcorn, superhero movies...
There is a talking tree and a talking rabbit... I can easily slide by other things...
I DO enjoy the debate/discussion around said data points though.,,, it means people have a vested interest in the movies and presumably are excited about them.

[gameoverman]

Regarding the Captain

Spoiler:

I'd say he never used his return trip, and simply lived out his life in "real-time".

Spoiler:

But he can't! Once he goes back in time he creates a new alternate timeline. He would age to THAT future, not the same one he left.

That's not how I see it:

Spoiler:

When he goes back he's in timeline A. He returns the stones. He's still in timeline A, the timeline where he's returning the stones. What I mean is, the time stone for instance with the sorcerer is in a different timeline as SHE goes forward. He's not part of her timeline nor is he part of the others. So when he elects to not go forward in time he's planting himself in timeline A but at the earlier point in time. Because he knows the spot in the future of timeline A that they used to send him back, he knows where to be at that time in order to see his friends that last time.

My opinion of the movie is that it's good but marred by what I consider to be unnecessary and even redundant material. In particular

Spoiler:

Did we really need to see the snap's effect from Hawkeye's point of view AND Ant Man's point of view? If seeing that was important, shouldn't that stuff have been in Infinity War or even the previous Ant Man movie? And all that stuff about Hawkeye's rampage, what purpose did that serve? And skipping ahead five years, what purpose did that serve? A random rat solved their problem, so it wasn't even a case of them spending five years working out the solution. All I got out of it was they were moping around for five years until random chance saved them.

I liked Thor in this, and Black Widow. I think this was Scarlett Johansson's best work in all these movies. All things considered, it really is a remarkable achievement in film making. Ten years and over twenty movies and it all paid off in a way that I was satisfied with. When I look back on all the high points of the series it amazes me to realize that they were able to out high point the earlier high points with Endgame's high points.

[Punisher]

My opinion of the movie is that it's good but marred by what I consider to be unnecessary and even redundant material. In particular

Spoiler:

Did we really need to see the snap's effect from Hawkeye's point of view AND Ant Man's point of view? If seeing that was important, shouldn't that stuff have been in Infinity War or even the previous Ant Man movie? And all that stuff about Hawkeye's rampage, what purpose did that serve? And skipping ahead five years, what purpose did that serve? A random rat solved their problem, so it wasn't even a case of them spending five years working out the solution. All I got out of it was they were moping around for five years until random chance saved them.

I think

Spoiler:

The randomness of the rat was the point. You have all these powerful people who have not been able to do anything to resolve the issue and it took random chance/luck to get them moving again.
The powerful were powerless and a powerless creature was the key to jump starting them.
The same thing with the time jump. This isn't a "we fixed this right away because we are so awesome story" It's again, to show how powerless they really were.

[msteelers]

To gameoverman:

Spoiler:

Hawkeye killing random bad guys was there to set up Black Widows sacrifice. It goes back to the original Avengers. We find out she was a bad person, and Hawkeye was sent to kill her. He “made another call” and saved her instead. She’s been working ever since to erase the red out her ledger. When Hawkeye goes down an evil path, it’s her chance to return the favor and redeem her friend.

Did we need it to make her sacrifice meaningful? No. But it brings her story full circle, and was a perfect way to wrap up her character arc.

[JCC]

That's not how I see it:

Spoiler:

When he goes back he's in timeline A. He returns the stones. He's still in timeline A, the timeline where he's returning the stones. What I mean is, the time stone for instance with the sorcerer is in a different timeline as SHE goes forward. He's not part of her timeline nor is he part of the others. So when he elects to not go forward in time he's planting himself in timeline A but at the earlier point in time. Because he knows the spot in the future of timeline A that they used to send him back, he knows where to be at that time in order to see his friends that last time.

My rebuttal (I disagree strongly):

Spoiler:

That's in direct contradiction with the rules (that I didn't understand while watching the movie live). It is IMPOSSIBLE for Captain America to change timeline A. He didn't live with Peggy Carter - he was in a coma. Once he goes back in time to return the stones he is in some sort of alternate timeline. The only way for him to get back to the present from whence he came would be to use the time travel tech to return to the pad. If he can simply age in an alternate timeline and travel to the bench via conventional means and somehow be in the timeline he left, then it breaks all the rules established earlier in the movie.

[Unagi]

JCC is entirely correct.
Just got back from the movie.

Spoiler:

Captain America effectively went back and joined the "Promise-to-Return-the-Stone's World, that would have been without the stones ...." time-line (yellow)

That is, by the rules of the movie, not the timeline that Bruce Banner shot off in when he took the Time Stone (which was the 'black' time-line -- the one that needed fixing and borrowed the stones from the yellow.)

Captain America - By NOT returning via the Time-Heister machine, and instead just 'riding out time and rendezvousing naturally'... was living on the yellow time-line and then leaped back to the black time-line without the help of any machine, gps-device, etc.


And that could have been solved by him returning on the pad ("It will take as long as he needs") but removing his mask and showing that he lived his whole life out......

[YellowKing]

Sorry, but I think gameoverman's got it, and it's what I was trying to explain earlier.

Spoiler:

There's only one timeline that matters. That timeline is the one Doctor Strange saw, and the one that the movie shows us.

That is the timeline that happened. Steve Rogers going back in time doesn't change that. It creates an alternate branching timeline, but that alternate reality doesn't affect Steve or anyone else from the movie timeline so it can be ignored.

The only reason the Ancient One was worried about a branching timeline was because it would affect *her* reality. From the Avengers' perspective, it didn't mean anything. Why? Because there is only one timeline, the movie timeline. All other timelines spun off from their actions are inaccessible so they are meaningless to our heroes and the audience.

There's no reason for Steve to have to use a time machine to get "back" to his timeline because he never left his timeline. It just happens that in his timeline, he lived two lives - once as Captain America who saved the world from Thanos, and then again as a happily married man.

It's actually one of the cleanest set of time rules I've ever seen in a movie, because it does away with paradoxes and doesn't dwell on alternate realities that aren't relevant to the protagonists.

[gameoverman]

I disagree with the others because there are multiple Infinity Stones. This means

Spoiler:

he isn't going back just to one timeline to return one stone, he's going to multiple places. It won't just be a 'yellow' or 'black' timeline, it's far more than that. However, there IS only one timeline of significance to what happened, his own timeline, the one where he went back to return the stones. What I'm saying is those other stops he made were child timelines, with his own timeline as the parent. So he was able to return the stones then move up to the parent timeline and live out his life there. Think of it like folders on a computer. He went into various subfolders to replaces files, then he hit the back arrow to get to the main folder that contains the subfolders. His friends expected him to close Windows Explorer and wind up on the desktop but he chose to stay inside the main folder.

[Punisher]

something that just randomly clicked with me..

Spoiler:

Spider-Man now kills... It was a cool moment, but I just realized that he has now killed in canon... The movie seemed to just brushed this off, but I dont think he's ever killed before.(I am referring to "Prime version, Earth 616" Peter Parker. Not other people who use the name Spider-Man or What if? stories or accidents.)

[Victoria Raverna]

Spoiler:

3. Thanos... his powers just seem way OP. To the point of absurdity. Cap's shield is made from vibranium. Which I thought was the hardest metal out there. But Thanos' weapon is apparently stronger? And he's stronger than everyone else and invulnerable? The fight was fun to watch, but it was pretty ridiculous.

Spoiler:

Wanda is stronger than Thanos.

[Victoria Raverna]

Sorry, but I think gameoverman's got it, and it's what I was trying to explain earlier.

Spoiler:

There's only one timeline that matters. That timeline is the one Doctor Strange saw, and the one that the movie shows us.

That is the timeline that happened. Steve Rogers going back in time doesn't change that. It creates an alternate branching timeline, but that alternate reality doesn't affect Steve or anyone else from the movie timeline so it can be ignored.

The only reason the Ancient One was worried about a branching timeline was because it would affect *her* reality. From the Avengers' perspective, it didn't mean anything. Why? Because there is only one timeline, the movie timeline. All other timelines spun off from their actions are inaccessible so they are meaningless to our heroes and the audience.

There's no reason for Steve to have to use a time machine to get "back" to his timeline because he never left his timeline. It just happens that in his timeline, he lived two lives - once as Captain America who saved the world from Thanos, and then again as a happily married man.

It's actually one of the cleanest set of time rules I've ever seen in a movie, because it does away with paradoxes and doesn't dwell on alternate realities that aren't relevant to the protagonists.

Spoiler:

I think that is breaking the rule of Endgame's time travel. It is not possible to return to their own past. Any past that they return to is an alternate reality.

There are only two ways old Steve Roger can be in Endgame's reality. Either he returned to Endgame reality after spending a lifetime in an alternate reality or Endgame's reality is not the original reality.

Since Steve didn't return using the time machine, the old Steve is not the same as the one that left. Kind of like Gamora is still alive because she is not the same Gamora that died. She is from a reality that Thanos and his troops went missing before the snap, because of time travel.

[gameoverman]

Sorry, but I think gameoverman's got it, and it's what I was trying to explain earlier.

Spoiler:

There's only one timeline that matters. That timeline is the one Doctor Strange saw, and the one that the movie shows us.

That is the timeline that happened. Steve Rogers going back in time doesn't change that. It creates an alternate branching timeline, but that alternate reality doesn't affect Steve or anyone else from the movie timeline so it can be ignored.

The only reason the Ancient One was worried about a branching timeline was because it would affect *her* reality. From the Avengers' perspective, it didn't mean anything. Why? Because there is only one timeline, the movie timeline. All other timelines spun off from their actions are inaccessible so they are meaningless to our heroes and the audience.

There's no reason for Steve to have to use a time machine to get "back" to his timeline because he never left his timeline. It just happens that in his timeline, he lived two lives - once as Captain America who saved the world from Thanos, and then again as a happily married man.

It's actually one of the cleanest set of time rules I've ever seen in a movie, because it does away with paradoxes and doesn't dwell on alternate realities that aren't relevant to the protagonists.

Spoiler:

I think that is breaking the rule of Endgame's time travel. It is not possible to return to their own past. Any past that they return to is an alternate reality.

There are only two ways old Steve Roger can be in Endgame's reality. Either he returned to Endgame reality after spending a lifetime in an alternate reality or Endgame's reality is not the original reality.

Since Steve didn't return using the time machine, the old Steve is not the same as the one that left. Kind of like Gamora is still alive because she is not the same Gamora that died. She is from a reality that Thanos and his troops went missing before the snap, because of time travel.

Remember earlier in the movie when

Spoiler:

they did their first experiments with Ant Man? He came back as a kid. He left as an adult and came back, to the same timeline, at a different age. I think the alternate timeline creation thing has to do more with changes they might make to events, and not so much changes they themselves experience. Rogers fixed the timelines by returning the stones, whether he then returns directly home or takes the long way home doesn't change that.

[Victoria Raverna]

Sorry, but I think gameoverman's got it, and it's what I was trying to explain earlier.

Spoiler:

There's only one timeline that matters. That timeline is the one Doctor Strange saw, and the one that the movie shows us.

That is the timeline that happened. Steve Rogers going back in time doesn't change that. It creates an alternate branching timeline, but that alternate reality doesn't affect Steve or anyone else from the movie timeline so it can be ignored.

The only reason the Ancient One was worried about a branching timeline was because it would affect *her* reality. From the Avengers' perspective, it didn't mean anything. Why? Because there is only one timeline, the movie timeline. All other timelines spun off from their actions are inaccessible so they are meaningless to our heroes and the audience.

There's no reason for Steve to have to use a time machine to get "back" to his timeline because he never left his timeline. It just happens that in his timeline, he lived two lives - once as Captain America who saved the world from Thanos, and then again as a happily married man.

It's actually one of the cleanest set of time rules I've ever seen in a movie, because it does away with paradoxes and doesn't dwell on alternate realities that aren't relevant to the protagonists.

Spoiler:

I think that is breaking the rule of Endgame's time travel. It is not possible to return to their own past. Any past that they return to is an alternate reality.

There are only two ways old Steve Roger can be in Endgame's reality. Either he returned to Endgame reality after spending a lifetime in an alternate reality or Endgame's reality is not the original reality.

Since Steve didn't return using the time machine, the old Steve is not the same as the one that left. Kind of like Gamora is still alive because she is not the same Gamora that died. She is from a reality that Thanos and his troops went missing before the snap, because of time travel.

Remember earlier in the movie when

Spoiler:

they did their first experiments with Ant Man? He came back as a kid. He left as an adult and came back, to the same timeline, at a different age. I think the alternate timeline creation thing has to do more with changes they might make to events, and not so much changes they themselves experience. Rogers fixed the timelines by returning the stones, whether he then returns directly home or takes the long way home doesn't change that.

Spoiler:

By not returning home, he changes the timeline and created an alternate timeline. Since Endgame insisted that you can't change the past. You can't go back to baby Thanos and kill him to prevent the snap in Endgame timeline. You can prevent snap in an alternate timeline by doing that but it won't change Endgame's timeline.

So if Steve didn't marry Peggy before they time travel then there is no way that old Steve can take the long way home in that timeline. That'll be changing the past of their own timeline.

For old Steve to be able to spend a lifetime in that timeline means that the old Steve was already in that timeline before the time travel.

If it is possible to change their past, there is no reason to undo the snap using another snap. Just go back and kill baby Thanos.

[AWS260]

Well, I enjoyed that quite a bit. Not as much as Infinity War -- I thought that Endgame had some pacing, tone, and character balance issues that Infinity War somehow sidestepped. But overall it was a blast.

I really appreciate how resolutely "comic book" Endgame is. I could easily imagine its plot unfolding in a big comic book crossover event.

That's pretty much all I can say without delving into spoilers, so I'll leave it there for now.

[YellowKing]

I think one thing that could clear things up is:

Spoiler:

It's possible that there is some quantum-level wave collapsing that is going on that would explain how one seemingly alternate reality could collapse and merge into the MCU reality.

So for instance, in Cap's case, even though he lived out another full life in a copy reality of his own past (with changes), physics forces him to merge back into his own timeline at the point he left to get things back to "normal."

There was a guy on reddit who explained this much better and talked about how various individual Avengers' possible outcomes could be collapsing into what we see on screen.

TLDR; looking at it from a time travel perspective is one thing, but the true "answer" may lie in the way the parallel universes behave. And that's info we're not really privy to from the movie's rules.

[Unagi]

Can we drop the Spoiler Tags soon ?



I wanna talk about Pepper

[AWS260]

Dude, it's only been out for three days!

Here (in spoiler tags) are a few spoilery thoughts.

Spoiler:

Tony's death scene was perfect. Rhodey's sadness, Peter's panic, and especially Pepper's calming presence.

Fat Thor was a delight. While I think they milked him for humor a few too many times, his scenes with Freya (such a pleasant surprise) and at the end with the Guardians were spot-on.

I was surprised to see so little of Captain Marvel, although they did a good job of explaining why (helping all the other planets while the Avengers were dealing with Earth). Her character was mostly a blank -- I read afterwards that Brie Larson had to film her Endgame scenes before there was even a script for Captain Marvel, which would explain a lot. Still, I loved the moment when Thanos headbutted her.

I'm really curious to see where the Marvel movies go next. I kind of hope they focus on self-contained stories for a while. I need a breather before the next big crossover.

[msteelers]

Dude, it's only been out for three days!

I would hate it if anybody is accidentally spoiled on this movie, but frankly if you go into a discussion thread about Endgame at this point that’s on you. Can we just slap a spoiler tag to the thread title and be done with it?

[UsulofDoom]

I was disappointed in the last ten minutes. No clip in the credits! You made me watch the credits for nothing!

[wonderpug]

I was disappointed in the last ten minutes. No clip in the credits! You made me watch the credits for nothing!

Spoiler:

You know there wasn't nothing though, right?

[Unagi]

Dude, it's only been out for three days!

I would hate it if anybody is accidentally spoiled on this movie, but frankly if you go into a discussion thread about Endgame at this point that’s on you. Can we just slap a spoiler tag to the thread title and be done with it?

What does someone think is going to discussed in this forum but the movie? Before it comes out, it's speculation - and if you don't want to read any, you don't read the thread then. When the movie came out - There was no chance I was going to keep reading this thread.

Out of an abundance of caution, I'll continue to use spoiler tags.

Spoiler:

Regarding the fixes that YK describes... I am sure someone could creatively write up some fan fiction to fill in the gaps for it. And I could even get behind that kind of a conversation, but it's not addressing what is being argued: under the rules that were deliberately spelled out to us in the Movie, did the Cap's end not make sense.

First two things needs to be understood/agreed on: The Cap had no other means of Time Travel (and there isn't a reason to suspect he did, as he came back seeming to have naturally aged). And he 'went back in time, 'had a life', and just knew to sit himself down on that bench on that day.

If we can't agree to the above, we aren't talking the same thing.

Moving on. The sorcerer taught us about how giving away the stone would jeopardize her timeline. Bruce argued he could come back again and 'fix it' like a split second after it was jeopardized, likely to leave it entirely OK.
Bruce would have secured HIS (our/endgame) timeline (the one they keep returning to).
critical point: If Bruce BLEW OFF his promise to return the stone, HIS (our/endgame) timeline would still be just fine, it's problem would still be 'solved'. This proves that our timeline and the sorcerer's timeline are not the same.
If Bruce, or the Cap (as happened) returned to that timeline and did not "return via GPS", they would be in the timeline that was the now unjeopardized sorcerer's timeline, not in the Bruce/Endgame/Our timeline.

End yet, they seemed to have totally set us up for letting Cap "have a life", and he did. I really don't understand why they didn't just go with him re-appearing on the Time-Pad... remove the mask for dramatic reveal of him being much older... Bruce had said it would only be 5 seconds for 'them', while the Cap could take 'as long as he wanted'.... (and still come back on the Pad).

I think it's a simple as 'dramatic effect'. They wanted that moment where it seemed like maybe he didn't come back, and then - - Oh hey, who's the old man just sitting over yonder? .

Seriously, what would the difference have been from Cap's life experience, if he had put the suit back on, Back in the generous Sorcerer's Time-Line (so to speak) where he got to live out his life with his love..., flash back and tell everyone that he took a little more time than he first planned to.... Same ending. Same life. Cleaner from the movies rules.... but less dramatic.


While I think people can craft ways with the quantum world to fudge in just about anything, and some can even be pretty good - I don't think movies should be filled in like that, especially when this other ending was sitting there, missed.


Commenting on it is valid. I think JCC (and others) are right to have found that little flaw.

It's not the end of the world or end of the movie. To me, it's almost like a continuity error (bagel turns to donut in the next scene), but of a screenplay variety... and I can get over it. But I can't just pretend it isn't sitting there.

[Unagi]

Oh, and Pepper

Spoiler:

So... I just really think she did not belong on the battle field like that. Just seemed out of place/character/sound tactics/child-rearing, etc.

And if anyone's listening..... I'm NOT wanting a Gwyneth Paltrow follow-up movie. please no.


That being said, I'd be perfectly happy if they turned Morgan into Ironheart.

[Unagi]

My favorite line in the movie:

Spoiler:

this line just made me beam...

Captain Marvel: "Well, hello, Peter Parker." /smile


It was all in how she said it, the feeling at the moment in the movie, perhaps even the music...
Peter (laying with the glove) had just met her on the battle field and introduced himself.
And she just seemed like a vision. The way in which she said the words: "Peter Parker" just made stupid happy.

[Pyperkub]

It's definitely a bittersweet experience. I guess endings always are.

I saw it yesterday and I still feel emotionally drained from it as I work it around in my head and think of all the great moments throughout the MCU up to now.

Been listening to Awesome Mix, Vol 1 as well, and was periodically flipping over to the various MCU movies over the weekend. Saw bits of Iron Man (1), GoG 1, Thor, Captain America, Captain America the winter soldier, Avengers 1, Avengers 2 Iron Man 3, and I watched the entirety of GoG, V2 as well. Re-watched Infinity War last weekend as well.

It has been an epic journey.

[Suitably Ironic Moniker]

My favorite line:

Spoiler:

That IS America's Ass!!

[El Guapo]

I kind of liked when Captain America was fighting Captain America - "I can do this all day" "Yeah, I know."

[El Guapo]

By the way - if you're dividing the Avengers into three teams, and all of them have to succeed for it to be worthwhile, how can you possibly wind up putting the only two Avengers with no superpowers (Hawkeye and Black Widow) on the *same team*?? If Thanos had gone after them they would've been completely boned.

[msteelers]

They did go to the one place that Thanos didn’t know about. So that was probably the safest place to be.

[msteelers]

If we aren’t using spoiler tags in the Game of Thrones thread, then we definitely don’t need them here.

To Unagi, I think the difference between Cap returning to the time pad and him sitting on the bench is simple. Him showing up on the bench is more dramatic and better story telling than him showing up on the pad. I’ll take a bending of the rules in order to get Falcons slow walk over, Bucky knowingly hanging back and his approving nod, and the entire conversation between Falcon and Cap. That was all perfect, and I’m ok with a slight break in the rules if that’s what the story needs.

I agree with you on Pepper though. That was one of my few nitpicks in the movie.

[Pyperkub]

One moment I loved - Dr. Strange giving Iron Man the finger - no, not that finger.

[Unagi]

I agree with you on Pepper though. That was one of my few nitpicks in the movie.

Sounds like we basically agree on the Cap thing too:

snippet:

Spoiler:

I think it's a simple as 'dramatic effect'. They wanted that moment where it seemed like maybe he didn't come back, and then - - Oh hey, who's the old man just sitting over yonder? .

[gameoverman]

My favorite line was the 'him or a tree' bit.

[YellowKing]

Here's a great article explaining in far better terms what I was trying to say re: individual timelines. Though I missed the part about only infinity stones being able to creating branch realities.

I think it does a great job reconciling everything:

https://www.polygon.com/2019/4/26/18518 ... merica-old

[El Guapo]

They did go to the one place that Thanos didn’t know about. So that was probably the safest place to be.

Still, they don't know what's there, right? And generally these infinity stones are well protected? Seems like you want to have one uber-powered hero in there in case of a big fight.

[Unagi]

It would have been awkward too, if the people assigned the Soul Stone had no love for one another at all. Like Rocket and Nebula or something...

[El Guapo]

Honestly, kind of surprised that Hawkeye / Black Widow qualified. I bet Thanos is pissed that he evidently could've just sacrificed his work buddy instead of his daughter.

[stimpy]

There is some bogus meme going around about when it's safe to take a bathroom break.
Number 1 (npi) is when Hulk is having lunch.
That was one of the best parts of the movie to me and I would have been pissed (npi) had I left during it.