Game of Thrones Season 8

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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8

Post by ImLawBoy »

morlac wrote: Wed May 22, 2019 5:57 pm 2. World has Magic which deicentivizes innovation
This doesn't work because no one actually uses magic. There's no disincentive from something that doesn't have any impact at all on society.
morlac wrote:3. World has been a feudal society for basically ever which deicentivizes innovation
We managed to move on from feudalism. Society doesn't generally sit stagnant for 5000 years. (And magic isn't the answer here, either.)
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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8

Post by morlac »

Magic recently became rare. For most of the last 6,000 years it very much effected society just maybe not in a obviously direct way.

Plus just in the tv series we saw (book has even more):

Blood Magic
Pyrokenesis
Necromancy
Shadow Magic
Greensight
Warging
Bran stuff

plus:

Dragons, Giants, Direwolfs


Us: A. I need to invent a way to see what the enemy is doing a few miles away. Invent: camera, plane combine into spy plane. And all the inventions that lead up to those.

Wildlings: B. "Timmy, why don't you warg into that there bird and uhh go fly over those hills."


What's the incentive to get to A if you can just get on with it and do B?


Feudalism has worked for them for over 6,000 years. Id be surprised if we last half of that before self destructing. That being said not sure why you keep comparing them to us, we aren't playing by the same set of rules.
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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8

Post by Holman »

I thought I read a few years ago that GRRM had indicated in interviews that technological stagnation was of a piece with the long winters and various other realized mythic elements. Martin's background stories feel like ASoI&F no matter how far they're set in the past.

There has to be something holding them back. (Realistically, a civilization in which scorpions and green wildfire are physically possible is a society with practiced napalm artillery inside of a generation)
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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8

Post by ImLawBoy »

morlac wrote: Wed May 22, 2019 7:42 pm Magic recently became rare. For most of the last 6,000 years it very much effected society just maybe not in a obviously direct way.
I only know of the main book series and the show. If increased and more readily available magic is in other materials, that might change things.
morlac wrote:Plus just in the tv series we saw (book has even more):

Blood Magic
Pyrokenesis
Necromancy
Shadow Magic
Greensight
Warging
Bran stuff

plus:

Dragons, Giants, Direwolfs


Us: A. I need to invent a way to see what the enemy is doing a few miles away. Invent: camera, plane combine into spy plane. And all the inventions that lead up to those.

Wildlings: B. "Timmy, why don't you warg into that there bird and uhh go fly over those hills."


What's the incentive to get to A if you can just get on with it and do B?
But this doesn't help your argument. All of these forms of magic are exceedingly rare (and I don't know whether you can call direwolves and giants magic) and unavailable to the average person. If magic were to obviate the need for technology, as you propose, then the magic would necessarily need to be more readily available to the populace. Take your warging example. This ability is exceedingly rare (and often hidden, IIRC), so it's not like the ability of a few Starks to warg made the Lannisters or Freys decide to not bother seeking any scouting techniques.

If anything, the rareness of magic might lead to more innovation. We see this the reintroduction of dragons (which may or may not be magic). This led to the extremely rapid development of mysteriously accurate crossbow technology. Those without magic (99.99% of the population) would need technology to keep up.

morlac wrote:Feudalism has worked for them for over 6,000 years. Id be surprised if we last half of that before self destructing. That being said not sure why you keep comparing them to us, we aren't playing by the same set of rules.
It's worked for a few elite families, I guess. It's hardly worked for the farmers who have their children forced into armies to fight the wars of those elite families, or for the hordes of slaves in Essos, or those suffering from diseases that could be eradicated with better science. But maybe we just have different ideas of what is working.

And I'm comparing them to us for the same reasons that people were comparing Dany's mental state to the our real understanding of mental illness. That's what we have as a comparison point. The people in Martin's world are clearly the same human beings we are, so it makes some sense to compare. Sure there are differences in the worlds, but that doesn't mean we can't take those into account when discussing the worlds (as we are doing here).
Holman wrote: Wed May 22, 2019 10:59 pm I thought I read a few years ago that GRRM had indicated in interviews that technological stagnation was of a piece with the long winters and various other realized mythic elements. Martin's background stories feel like ASoI&F no matter how far they're set in the past.

There has to be something holding them back. (Realistically, a civilization in which scorpions and green wildfire are physically possible is a society with practiced napalm artillery inside of a generation)
I'm all for hearing about whatever might be holding them back. I plan on reading the final two books in the series and I may watch some of the spin-offs, but I probably won't read much of the rest of the background materials, so I'll need to rely on you guys to let me know.
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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8

Post by GungHo »

I liked it(wife and I got behind a few weeks and were just able to catch up today). Havent had a chance to read yall's thoughts yet but that's on the agenda for tomorrow. It felt rushed in some ways, but...well I guess no show is ever perfect.

What's the current O/U on GRRM to finish the books?
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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8

Post by El Guapo »

ImLawBoy wrote: Wed May 22, 2019 6:01 pm
morlac wrote: Wed May 22, 2019 5:57 pm 2. World has Magic which deicentivizes innovation
This doesn't work because no one actually uses magic. There's no disincentive from something that doesn't have any impact at all on society.
morlac wrote:3. World has been a feudal society for basically ever which deicentivizes innovation
We managed to move on from feudalism. Society doesn't generally sit stagnant for 5000 years. (And magic isn't the answer here, either.)
Are we talking about 5,000 years? I could see 1,000 years - I don't think there was *that* much technological change between year 0 and year 1,000, depending on the region of the world - but 5,000 seems like a stretch. But then, we basically have a sample size of one world (Earth), so we could be the outlier cosmically.
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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8

Post by ImLawBoy »

I remember reading somewhere that Martin's world stretches from 5000-10,000 years. I went on the low end for that since that's what was posted earlier for the prequel.
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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8

Post by Jeff V »

GungHo wrote: Thu May 23, 2019 12:31 am What's the current O/U on GRRM to finish the books?
His death, followed by a posthumous book of doodles is the favorite.
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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8

Post by El Guapo »

ImLawBoy wrote: Thu May 23, 2019 9:54 am I remember reading somewhere that Martin's world stretches from 5000-10,000 years. I went on the low end for that since that's what was posted earlier for the prequel.
Yeah, I'm just wondering whether that's precise, or whether that's a more hyperbolic "a long long time ago" type thing.
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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8

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.........has anybody told them nerds that the series is over..........?
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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8

Post by Holman »

El Guapo wrote: Thu May 23, 2019 9:39 am
ImLawBoy wrote: Wed May 22, 2019 6:01 pm
morlac wrote: Wed May 22, 2019 5:57 pm 2. World has Magic which deicentivizes innovation
This doesn't work because no one actually uses magic. There's no disincentive from something that doesn't have any impact at all on society.
morlac wrote:3. World has been a feudal society for basically ever which deicentivizes innovation
We managed to move on from feudalism. Society doesn't generally sit stagnant for 5000 years. (And magic isn't the answer here, either.)
Are we talking about 5,000 years? I could see 1,000 years - I don't think there was *that* much technological change between year 0 and year 1,000, depending on the region of the world - but 5,000 seems like a stretch. But then, we basically have a sample size of one world (Earth), so we could be the outlier cosmically.
In addition to technological change, there is institutional change. Technology didn't change all that much from 1 to 1000 C.E., but society/law/religion/economy certainly did. GRRM's world (judging from the background stuff I've seen) seems to be static in these areas as well.

We're told that the Maesters in Oldtown have generally been opposed to magic and invested in science. If science is indeed possible (and not magically thwarted somehow) in this world as it is in ours, they must not be very good at it.

There's clearly something keeping this world static. Whether there's an in-world explanation or just GRRM's preference here remains to be seen.
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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8

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And while I'm knocking it here as a potential flaw in his world, it doesn't really bother me all that much. I let the show get away with much worse than this.
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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8

Post by Jeff V »

ImLawBoy wrote: Thu May 23, 2019 10:32 am And while I'm knocking it here as a potential flaw in his world, it doesn't really bother me all that much. I let the show get away with much worse than this.
Simple answer: In every kingdom/empire on the planet, every other ruler is Donald Trump, determined to undo the progress made by his predecessor. So nothing ever gets done.

I suggest reading A World of Ice and Fire. I'm not sure history has been quite as stagnant as it might appear. At 5000 years, it's not too much of a stretch to still be in a Feudal society - that is nearly the same time span as predynastic Egyptian civilization (~3000 BCE) to the end of Feudalism in the 19th century. In terms of technological advancement, that is something driven by need more than anything. Why bother inventing the comustion engine, for example, when whole armies can transport thousands of miles in a heartbeat? ;)
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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8

Post by gameoverman »

What might hold a civilization back could be things like lack of certain resources. The other thing might be the lack of need for change. Aren't there still a few isolated, primitive tribes living here on Earth right now who live as they have their entire existence, with no tech advancements?

Also, I've read that certain uncontrolled and unplanned events shaped our world. The bubonic plague is said to have changed society in Europe due to the sudden loss of a large percentage of the population. If the GOT world lacks key resources, and they don't usually endure the kind of major events that force change, they might not want to change. Dany was an outside force for change, but she had dragons. And even she was only changing things so that she could go back home and put things back the way they were before her father was overthrown.
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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8

Post by Jeff V »

gameoverman wrote: Thu May 23, 2019 2:52 pm What might hold a civilization back could be things like lack of certain resources. The other thing might be the lack of need for change. Aren't there still a few isolated, primitive tribes living here on Earth right now who live as they have their entire existence, with no tech advancements?
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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8

Post by McNutt »

Sure, tech can be restricted by natural resources among other things. I had read that the Mayans had the wheel, but didn't have as much use for it early on because they had no beasts of burden. When you combine a wheel with a horse or ox, it becomes much more useful. Not having those animals could slow down advancement.

However, there doesn't appear to be a shortage of beasts of burden in Westeros.
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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8

Post by ImLawBoy »

One thing that the people of Martin's world are really obsessive about is waging wars and killing people. The invention of guns would have been huge and would have given an immediate advantage to any house with access to guns and gunpowder. Instead they've been essentially using the same weapons of war for millennia (until Qyburn put the crossbow on steroids).
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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8

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Jeff V wrote: Thu May 23, 2019 11:18 am
ImLawBoy wrote: Thu May 23, 2019 10:32 am And while I'm knocking it here as a potential flaw in his world, it doesn't really bother me all that much. I let the show get away with much worse than this.
Simple answer: In every kingdom/empire on the planet, every other ruler is Donald Trump, determined to undo the progress made by his predecessor. So nothing ever gets done.

I suggest reading A World of Ice and Fire. I'm not sure history has been quite as stagnant as it might appear. At 5000 years, it's not too much of a stretch to still be in a Feudal society - that is nearly the same time span as predynastic Egyptian civilization (~3000 BCE) to the end of Feudalism in the 19th century. In terms of technological advancement, that is something driven by need more than anything. Why bother inventing the comustion engine, for example, when whole armies can transport thousands of miles in a heartbeat? ;)
Great civilizations with advanced technologies have risen and fallen. Remember the area where Jorah got greyscale? That was the ruins of a huge metropolis complete with massive statues? [My memory in this is hazy so ymmv]
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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8

Post by McNutt »

Right, but those ruins could only be a hundred years old.
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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8

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ImLawBoy wrote: Thu May 23, 2019 3:11 pm One thing that the people of Martin's world are really obsessive about is waging wars and killing people. The invention of guns would have been huge and would have given an immediate advantage to any house with access to guns and gunpowder. Instead they've been essentially using the same weapons of war for millennia (until Qyburn put the crossbow on steroids).
I now have this vision of a group of Westeros' greatest military minds, assembled all in one place and brainstorming advanced weaponry. Suddenly one of them holds up an arrow and shouts..."WHAT ABOUT MAKING IT BIGGER!". Then everyone bows to their new intellectual leader.

Then we fast forward 2000 years and another gathering, at which point that guy's descendant points to a huge arrow and shouts, "WHAT IF WE ADDED BARBS!"
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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8

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hepcat wrote: Thu May 23, 2019 3:47 pm
ImLawBoy wrote: Thu May 23, 2019 3:11 pm One thing that the people of Martin's world are really obsessive about is waging wars and killing people. The invention of guns would have been huge and would have given an immediate advantage to any house with access to guns and gunpowder. Instead they've been essentially using the same weapons of war for millennia (until Qyburn put the crossbow on steroids).
I now have this vision of a group of Westeros' greatest military minds, assembled all in one place and brainstorming advanced weaponry. Suddenly one of them holds up an arrow and shouts..."WHAT ABOUT MAKING IT BIGGER!". Then everyone bows to their new intellectual leader.

Then we fast forward 2000 years and another gathering, at which point that guy's descendant points to a huge arrow and shouts, "WHAT IF WE ADDED BARBS!"
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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8

Post by Holman »

One of the drivers of change in all areas is contact with cultures where they do things differently. GRRM's is a world a dramatically different cultures, and it really seems like they've been regularly trading and exchanging mercenaries and recipes with each other for millennia.

(This, incidentally, is why Arya's "What's West of Westeros?" is a dopey premise. They're sailing caravels and galleons by the hundreds, and no one has gone to the edge of the map yet?)

Unless magic is involved, you really can't justify dozens of centuries of relative stasis in a global-trade setting. I suspect GRRM just likes it because the whole show is The Middle Ages On Steroids.
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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8

Post by morlac »

ImLawBoy wrote: Thu May 23, 2019 10:32 am And while I'm knocking it here as a potential flaw in his world, it doesn't really bother me all that much. I let the show get away with much worse than this.

Agree, I just find the conversation/debate around it more interesting than arguing about Mad Queens ;)
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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8

Post by morlac »

McNutt wrote: Thu May 23, 2019 3:28 pm Right, but those ruins could only be a hundred years old.
700ish iirc. That was Valyria where the Targaraen's and Dragons originated from I mentioned earlier in the thread. They were the most advanced of their time, tamed dragons and built a massive city (with Magic!)that hasn't been matched since. All gone in a blink due to a giant volcano or something. Supposedly it was based on Atlantis.
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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8

Post by Jeff V »

Drazzil wrote: Thu May 23, 2019 3:24 pm Great civilizations with advanced technologies have risen and fallen. Remember the area where Jorah got greyscale? That was the ruins of a huge metropolis complete with massive statues? [My memory in this is hazy so ymmv]
Great civilizations, yes. We've also had the likes of the Roman Empire and Alexander the Great's empire long before Feudalism became a thing. Monument building was a huge thing in ancient civilizations. While Westeros was decidedly feudalistic, other kingdoms/societies were certainly not.

The only significant "advanced technology" that seems lost in this world is Valerian Steel. Various dragon-related products were also lost, but that's because they harvested the source to extinction.
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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8

Post by msduncan »

I wonder what Arya will find to the west?
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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8

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msduncan wrote: Fri May 24, 2019 8:31 am I wonder what Arya will find to the west?
Perhaps an ancient civilization where Ilyn Payne is doing executions.
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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8

Post by Exodor »

msduncan wrote: Fri May 24, 2019 8:31 am I wonder what Arya will find to the west?
It seems we'll never know.

Unless George writes a sequel once he finishes with the last two books. :P :lol:

(he's never finishing the last two books)
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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8

Post by Blackhawk »

The real reason they haven't advanced in thousands of years is that HBO isn't going to make a Game of Thrones movie where King's Landing is a series of mud huts, and war is waged by throwing rocks.

Now, whether that is justified by continual wars, conspiracies of a magocracy, continual environmental crashes (winter keeps coming), or the Night King stomping on them all every few centuries is up to HBO and/or Martin, but the real reason is just that they don't want mud huts.
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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8

Post by Jeff V »

msduncan wrote: Fri May 24, 2019 8:31 am I wonder what Arya will find to the west?
Stud muffins that will erase the memory of the Gendry encounter from her mind forever.
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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8

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It always comes back to Hot Pie for you, doesn't it?
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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8

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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8

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Blackhawk wrote: Fri May 24, 2019 12:23 pm
That's great.
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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8

Post by Smoove_B »

Yeah, I have a feeling it's pretty close to what really happened. :D
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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8

Post by Jaymann »

Because who has a better story than Bran?

Arguably any other character.
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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8

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El Guapo wrote: Fri May 24, 2019 1:10 pmThat's great.
If you like that one I can highly recommend all the pitch meeting videos. I've seen them all and I can honestly say it never gets old.
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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8

Post by GungHo »

Yeah that was pretty great
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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8

Post by Drazzil »

Jeff V wrote: Fri May 24, 2019 8:02 am
Drazzil wrote: Thu May 23, 2019 3:24 pm Great civilizations with advanced technologies have risen and fallen. Remember the area where Jorah got greyscale? That was the ruins of a huge metropolis complete with massive statues? [My memory in this is hazy so ymmv]
Great civilizations, yes. We've also had the likes of the Roman Empire and Alexander the Great's empire long before Feudalism became a thing. Monument building was a huge thing in ancient civilizations. While Westeros was decidedly feudalistic, other kingdoms/societies were certainly not.

The only significant "advanced technology" that seems lost in this world is Valerian Steel. Various dragon-related products were also lost, but that's because they harvested the source to extinction.
Why do I remember Jorah getting infected on river sailing past the ashy remains of a city that had large statues, as well as what I read as aqueducts? Gotta rewatch that part.
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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8

Post by Jeff V »

The Isle of the Stone Men is probably akin to the leper colony at Molokai. Those afflicted with the disease were sent there, and since insanity is a late-stage symptom, sailing near these islands was probably not their best course. I wouldn't consider the Stone Men to be a society, it's more of an asylum.
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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8

Post by MonkeyFinger »

Did anyone else catch "The Last Watch" documentary last night? Pretty crazy the amount of work that went into that show, including spending seven months to build some King's Landing streets to blow up. Also, during that abbreviated table read they did for the last episode (which was compared to a much smaller one from the first season) it was quite interesting to see Kitt's reaction (Emilia's as well) to finding out that he would be killing her in the episode. I also have a strange desire to make myself a "wee toastie" now. :wink:
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