Game of Thrones Season 8

[McNutt]

Grey Wolf had an equal number to the Northmen outside the gate, but his army wasn't going to get any bigger. The United army could be reinforced before too long and the Ironborn could easily set up a blockade to starve the Unsullied.

[malchior]

Also to be fair, that entire scene made absolutely no logical sense whatsoever.

Exactly. That a meeting to deal with meting justice out to a prisoner ended with him designing the current and future state of the kingdom....was preposterous. This episode and that scene in particular is a decent example of the meta problems that the series got into.

But most of the council had no real issue with Tyrion at that point. He was imprisoned by a now dead quasi-Queen that most of the people there (outside of Yara and *maybe* the new Prince of Dorne) didn't really care for at this point. They needed to placate Grey Worm's concerns (and Grey Worm probably cared more about Jon than Tyrion), but once that's done the council itself wouldn't really have an issue discussing this stuff with Tyrion.

What you just said requires that you accept the *very, very abbreviated* nature of the show in seasons 7-8. That they twiddled their thumbs for a few weeks until Tyrion opened his mouth at his "moment of reckoning" doesn't make a lick of sense...unless you are willing to give a lot of license to it working through whatever you fill that gap in with in your own head. Plenty of stories work that way. This one didn't previously and I'm simply not a fan of the dynamic shift.

[Holman]

Bronn is Lord of Highgarden and Lord Paramount of the Mander (Reach).

But only after Tyrion is free to grant it to him. I don't believe he holds the title at the time of the Bran vote, or he would have been there.

(I was asking about the period when Grey Worm was holding Tyrion and KL was apparently rebuilding at a 20th-century pace.)

[Holman]

For example, wasn't it pointed out a few seasons back that the Reach was the breadbasket of King's Landing and that the city couldn't survive without its food shipments?

Of course this is one of the areas (along with, er, White Walkers and resurrections and everything else) where GRRM kind of forgets his realism. King's Landing is several times said to be a city of "millions," but I don't think medieval-style agriculture could ever feed a city of that size.

In the high middle ages, Paris had 200,000 people. London didn't reach half a million until almost the eighteenth century.

I don't think any pre-industrial city in history is believed to have ever gone much above a million, and I think those include the wider urban area, not just inside-the-walls.

[El Guapo]

Grey Wolf had an equal number to the Northmen outside the gate, but his army wasn't going to get any bigger. The United army could be reinforced before too long and the Ironborn could easily set up a blockade to starve the Unsullied.

We don't really know whether the Northmen had an equal number or not. It's also unclear that the Ironborn would side with the Northerners, especially since Yara seemed 100% on board with Grey Worm's "kill them all" position.

[El Guapo]

Also to be fair, that entire scene made absolutely no logical sense whatsoever.

Exactly. That a meeting to deal with meting justice out to a prisoner ended with him designing the current and future state of the kingdom....was preposterous. This episode and that scene in particular is a decent example of the meta problems that the series got into.

But most of the council had no real issue with Tyrion at that point. He was imprisoned by a now dead quasi-Queen that most of the people there (outside of Yara and *maybe* the new Prince of Dorne) didn't really care for at this point. They needed to placate Grey Worm's concerns (and Grey Worm probably cared more about Jon than Tyrion), but once that's done the council itself wouldn't really have an issue discussing this stuff with Tyrion.

What you just said requires that you accept the *very, very abbreviated* nature of the show in seasons 7-8. That they twiddled their thumbs for a few weeks until Tyrion opened his mouth at his "moment of reckoning" doesn't make a lick of sense...unless you are willing to give a lot of license to it working through whatever you fill that gap in with in your own head. Plenty of stories work that way. This one didn't previously and I'm simply not a fan of the dynamic shift.

I mean, you have to fill in a lot, because the episode doesn't show you anything of the intervening period. I would imagine that a big chunk of that few weeks would involve Sansa and the other lords traveling to King's Landing, and you figure that a huge chunk of the general deliberations would have centered around who is going to rule next. The immediate concern for Sansa especially upon arriving would be Jon's fate in part because she would have a reasonable fear that Jon could be summarily executed at any point, but you figure that they're also discussing the future all throughout everything else.

Anyway, point is I don't really have an issue with the key events in the episode. It would have been nice to have more episodes / screen time in order to fill in a lot of what we're discussing, but it seems like there are reasonable ways to fill in the gaps.

[McNutt]

We don't really know whether the Northmen had an equal number or not. It's also unclear that the Ironborn would side with the Northerners, especially since Yara seemed 100% on board with Grey Worm's "kill them all" position.

I thought it was stated at the conference that there were an equal number of Northmen.
I meant that if the council voted to attack Grey Worm, the Seven Kingdoms would not be evenly matched, as was stated in a post above.

[El Guapo]

We don't really know whether the Northmen had an equal number or not. It's also unclear that the Ironborn would side with the Northerners, especially since Yara seemed 100% on board with Grey Worm's "kill them all" position.

I thought it was stated at the conference that there were an equal number of Northmen.
I meant that if the council voted to attack Grey Worm, the Seven Kingdoms would not be evenly matched, as was stated in a post above.

Sansa says something like "there are thousands of Northmen outside the walls who would object". Which I was also like, how many can there really be after the War of the Five Kings + the Northern Civil War + the white walker war + the battle for King's Landing, but then army sizes seem to fluctuate wildly this season. I also imagine Sansa has every reason to inflate her numbers insofar as she's mainly trying to convince Grey Worm to back down.

[Blackhawk]

Grey Wolf had an equal number to the Northmen outside the gate, but his army wasn't going to get any bigger. The United army could be reinforced before too long and the Ironborn could easily set up a blockade to starve the Unsullied.

Absolutely that. Without resources, the city isn't a stronghold, it is a prison. Cersei had the Iron Fleet to bring in supplies. Grey Worm had... well-done people jerky?

As to the council, I figure that there were a number of off-screen appointments and/or elevations going on. GRRM created a whole tapestry of threads, enough that even he can't seem to figure out how to tie them all together. The last few episodes were rushed, as has been said. Non-central stuff was just sort of assumed to happen in the white spaces between panels. Bronn was there because... whatever would have happened otherwise would have required an episode or two just to sort out. Hell, they would have needed an extra full season, a 7.5, just to handle the side plots one by one.

[ImLawBoy]

10,000 Unsullied would rout 10,000 Northmen easily. The Northmen are good fighters, but as they are described in the books and show the Unsullied are the best there ever was. The North's best bet would be a siege, but I think Grey Worm would be savvy enough to take the fight outside the walls and press his military advantage instead of letting them starve him out.

[McNutt]

The Unsullied can't stop a blockade. They are ground fighters, not sailors. They would either leave the city or starve. He really does not have a tenable position.

[El Guapo]

The Unsullied can't stop a blockade. They are ground fighters, not sailors. They would either leave the city or starve. He really does not have a tenable position.

But again, why do you think the Ironborn / the Iron Fleet would side with the Northmen instead of the Unsullied? Yara seemed to be on the same page as Grey Worm, in a similar pro-Dany pro-kill 'em all mindset. It would get more complicated if Grey Worm were trying to make a broader move than "execute Jon and probably Tyrion", but even in that situation I'm not sure why Yara would support the Northern efforts rather than (say) sailing away.

And that's setting aside the option of attacking the Northmen outside the city.

[Holman]

The Unsullied's main obstacle is that they simply can't rule. Grey Worm is no politician, and he's the only one of them all with even limited experience taking initiative.

Even if they conquered most of the kingdoms, how would they administer anything?

[McNutt]

Yara is not going to side against the six kingdoms to support a band of mercenaries. That would make no sense.

This was all just a hypothetical scenario where the Unsullied tried to exert some force.

[wonderpug]

Oh I keep forgetting to ask -- was that snow or ash falling when Jon walked up the steps and confronted Dany?

[ImLawBoy]

Of course it's all hypothetical, but why wouldn't Yara side with the Unsullied? The Greyjoys have no love for the realm - they tried to rebel more than once. Yara finally got behind Dany, and now those damn Starks, who have always been a thorn in the side of the Greyjoys, have killed her.

Had the political machinations been given their proper room to evolve, I could see a side plot brewing where Yara and Grey Worm joined forces. Yara was pretty clearly on #TeamKillJon&Tyrion during the Kingsmoot. Grey Worm had no desire or ability to govern, but he could pledge his troops to the one remaining ruler who wanted what he did. You'd then have a formidable force between the Iron Fleet (since we know they can build ships rapidly out of thin air) on the sea and the Unsullied on the land.

[Skinypupy]

Oh I keep forgetting to ask -- was that snow or ash falling when Jon walked up the steps and confronted Dany?

Judging by how much Drogon had to unbury himself, I'm thinking it would have to be snow.

Which also indicates there was a pretty long stretch between Jon killing Dany and the kingsmoot (and even longer before he leaves Kings Landing).

[hepcat]

Did the Dothraki just kind of...meander off after Dany got shived?

And you'd think that two very large and very violent armies finding out their beloved mother/god figure was just killed by a man they didn't particularly like to begin with would've resulted in Jon dying approximately 14 seconds after the act was discovered.

And why the hell does the North get to just say, "Oh, that's cool but we want to be a sovereign nation. Thanks anyway". Even Dorne, arguably a more independent nation, has to bend the knee to the creepy staring guy.

The more I think about this last episode, the more I realize it was just lazy writing from a group of writers who obviously wanted to move on as early as last year.

[El Guapo]

Oh I keep forgetting to ask -- was that snow or ash falling when Jon walked up the steps and confronted Dany?

Judging by how much Drogon had to unbury himself, I'm thinking it would have to be snow.

Which also indicates there was a pretty long stretch between Jon killing Dany and the kingsmoot (and even longer before he leaves Kings Landing).

I'm pretty sure that it was ash.

[El Guapo]

Of course it's all hypothetical, but why wouldn't Yara side with the Unsullied? The Greyjoys have no love for the realm - they tried to rebel more than once. Yara finally got behind Dany, and now those damn Starks, who have always been a thorn in the side of the Greyjoys, have killed her.

Had the political machinations been given their proper room to evolve, I could see a side plot brewing where Yara and Grey Worm joined forces. Yara was pretty clearly on #TeamKillJon&Tyrion during the Kingsmoot. Grey Worm had no desire or ability to govern, but he could pledge his troops to the one remaining ruler who wanted what he did. You'd then have a formidable force between the Iron Fleet (since we know they can build ships rapidly out of thin air) on the sea and the Unsullied on the land.

See? ILB gets it.

[hepcat]

I'm pretty sure that it was ash.

I wish, it would've been infinitely more entertaining.

[El Guapo]

I'm pretty sure that it was ash.

I wish, it would've been infinitely more entertaining.

Hail to the King, baby.

[Ralph-Wiggum]

Didn't Dany promise Yara that the Iron Islands would remain (generally) independent as payment for Yara helping Dany out? If so, seems pretty ridiculous that Yara wouldn't immediately also ask for independence after Sansa. After all, it seems all you had to do was ask.

[pr0ner]

[McNutt]

IF the other kingdoms decide they've had enough of the Unsullied demands, do you really think Yara is going to go against them? She's really going to side with a small band of mercenaries who have no land, no trade, no prospects? Why in the world would she do that? Because she's pissed at Jon? If she had to make a choice of which side to not piss off, the Six Kingdoms is the smart bet. She's not a fool.

[El Guapo]

Didn't Dany promise Yara that the Iron Islands would remain (generally) independent as payment for Yara helping Dany out? If so, seems pretty ridiculous that Yara wouldn't immediately also ask for independence after Sansa. After all, it seems all you had to do was ask.

Yeah, my understanding was that they were essentially promised autonomy but not actual independence. And yeah, you'd think she would raise independence if they're handing that out. Who knows, maybe they struck a deal afterwards (autonomy + other goods for House Greyjoy in exchange for not pushing independence).

[El Guapo]

IF the other kingdoms decide they've had enough of the Unsullied demands, do you really think Yara is going to go against them? She's really going to side with a small band of mercenaries who have no land, no trade, no prospects? Why in the world would she do that? Because she's pissed at Jon? If she had to make a choice of which side to not piss off, the Six Kingdoms is the smart bet. She's not a fool.

I could definitely see her sailing away if things go south. I could see her joining some kind of coalition involving the Unsullied, though it depends on the coalition. I can't really see her actively intervening to help the North in that fight.

Though this does get pretty hypothetical. In related news, the Enterprise would defeat a Star Destroyer in a fight.

[McNutt]

If it were a case of just fighting against the North, then sure. I'm talking about openly siding against the other kingdoms.

[El Guapo]

If it were a case of just fighting against the North, then sure. I'm talking about openly siding against the other kingdoms.

Yeah, and that's where things get pretty complicated and hypothetical - what is Grey Worm trying to do, what are the other houses trying to do, etc. If Grey Worm tried to put himself on the throne, that would be super complicated and likely to fail. If he were to support some other House's claim on the throne, that would be much more likely to succeed (in part because he then wouldn't be fighting against all the other kingdoms). It's just that in the short term Grey Worm has a significant amount of leverage by virtue of being in command of what's probably the strongest fighting force left in Westeros as well as being in control of the traditional seat of power. Actually using that leverage is a little tricky, to be sure.

Actually thinking about it it's kind of bonkers that Sansa and the other leaders went inside the dragonpits with the Northern armies outside. Sure seems like Grey Worm could have killed everyone there were he so inclined.

[ImLawBoy]

You make the grab for power in the immediate, and then you work on winning over other houses. Westeros is war weary, and if they think the only way to find peace is to follow Yara, they might do it.

Look, I'm not saying any of this is any more plausible than what went down or that it would be the smartest move for Yara/House Greyjoy. I'm just saying that it would have been at least somewhat plausible and would have made for potentially good political machinations if there were, say, seven or so more episodes of the show.

And the Enterprise would be a speed bump to a Super Star Destroyer.

[Jaymann]

And the Enterprise would be a speed bump to a Super Star Destroyer.

Unless they teleported into the engine room.

And since Yara was the only leader loyal to Dany, Grey Worm could have easily executed everyone else and made Yara Queen of all 7 Kingdoms, First of her Name.

[El Guapo]

You make the grab for power in the immediate, and then you work on winning over other houses. Westeros is war weary, and if they think the only way to find peace is to follow Yara, they might do it.

Look, I'm not saying any of this is any more plausible than what went down or that it would be the smartest move for Yara/House Greyjoy. I'm just saying that it would have been at least somewhat plausible and would have made for potentially good political machinations if there were, say, seven or so more episodes of the show.

And the Enterprise would be a speed bump to a Super Star Destroyer.

Ridiculous. They specifically established that lasers can't even penetrate the Enterprise D's navigational shields, let alone the main shields. Super Star Destroyers are armed with lasers. There's no way for it even to threaten the Enterprise.

[ImLawBoy]

You make the grab for power in the immediate, and then you work on winning over other houses. Westeros is war weary, and if they think the only way to find peace is to follow Yara, they might do it.

Look, I'm not saying any of this is any more plausible than what went down or that it would be the smartest move for Yara/House Greyjoy. I'm just saying that it would have been at least somewhat plausible and would have made for potentially good political machinations if there were, say, seven or so more episodes of the show.

And the Enterprise would be a speed bump to a Super Star Destroyer.

Ridiculous. They specifically established that lasers can't even penetrate the Enterprise D's navigational shields, let alone the main shields. Super Star Destroyers are armed with lasers. There's no way for it even to threaten the Enterprise.

What if, say, the Super Star Destroyer housed thousands of fighters, including bombers (and we know from the movies that bombs somehow work in deep space combat)? That's one blowed up Enterprise.

[McNutt]

Could the Unsullied be effective outside of King's Landing? In order to march and wage any kind of war they need a supply chain and I don't see them having it. Where will they get their food? Do they have armorers? Ferriers? Cooks? I think they only know how to fight and everything else is a mystery to them. Now having them bolster the Ironborn in a short-term fight would work. But we're going beyond short-term here. There aren't a ton of Unsullied left and Yara isn't going to risk that against kingdoms that are likely to be training troops at that moment. They Unsullied numbers will never grow.

As to the other point, is there an actual debate between the Enterprise vs. a Star Destroyer? I haven't heard that before and am intrigued.

[Jaymann]

Could the Unsullied be effective outside of King's Landing? In order to march and wage any kind of war they need a supply chain and I don't see them having it. Where will they get their food? Do they have armorers? Ferriers? Cooks? I think they only know how to fight and everything else is a mystery to them. Now having them bolster the Ironborn in a short-term fight would work. But we're going beyond short-term here. There aren't a ton of Unsullied left and Yara isn't going to risk that against kingdoms that are likely to be training troops at that moment. They Unsullied numbers will never grow.

But they also have the Dothraki. That equals ground troops plus cavalry plus navy.

[ImLawBoy]

Could the Unsullied be effective outside of King's Landing? In order to march and wage any kind of war they need a supply chain and I don't see them having it. Where will they get their food? Do they have armorers? Ferriers? Cooks? I think they only know how to fight and everything else is a mystery to them. Now having them bolster the Ironborn in a short-term fight would work. But we're going beyond short-term here. There aren't a ton of Unsullied left and Yara isn't going to risk that against kingdoms that are likely to be training troops at that moment. They Unsullied numbers will never grow.

That's all stuff that would probably lead to the Yara/Grey Worm alliance ultimately failing. It doesn't mean that they wouldn't give it a shot. You miss all the shots you don't take, and whatnot.

As to the other point, is there an actual debate between the Enterprise vs. a Star Destroyer? I haven't heard that before and am intrigued.

I don't know, but it sounds like the kind of thing nerds would argue about. After all, we're talking about hypothetical matchups that would never occur in fake universes. How nerdy.

NERDS!

[El Guapo]

Could the Unsullied be effective outside of King's Landing? In order to march and wage any kind of war they need a supply chain and I don't see them having it. Where will they get their food? Do they have armorers? Ferriers? Cooks? I think they only know how to fight and everything else is a mystery to them. Now having them bolster the Ironborn in a short-term fight would work. But we're going beyond short-term here. There aren't a ton of Unsullied left and Yara isn't going to risk that against kingdoms that are likely to be training troops at that moment. They Unsullied numbers will never grow.

That's all stuff that would probably lead to the Yara/Grey Worm alliance ultimately failing. It doesn't mean that they wouldn't give it a shot. You miss all the shots you don't take, and whatnot.

As to the other point, is there an actual debate between the Enterprise vs. a Star Destroyer? I haven't heard that before and am intrigued.

I don't know, but it sounds like the kind of thing nerds would argue about. After all, we're talking about hypothetical matchups that would never occur in fake universes. How nerdy.

NERDS!

You bet it is.

Have people even sliced together videos showing how an Enterprise vs. Star Destroyer encounter would go? Most definitely.

[El Guapo]

You make the grab for power in the immediate, and then you work on winning over other houses. Westeros is war weary, and if they think the only way to find peace is to follow Yara, they might do it.

Look, I'm not saying any of this is any more plausible than what went down or that it would be the smartest move for Yara/House Greyjoy. I'm just saying that it would have been at least somewhat plausible and would have made for potentially good political machinations if there were, say, seven or so more episodes of the show.

And the Enterprise would be a speed bump to a Super Star Destroyer.

Ridiculous. They specifically established that lasers can't even penetrate the Enterprise D's navigational shields, let alone the main shields. Super Star Destroyers are armed with lasers. There's no way for it even to threaten the Enterprise.

What if, say, the Super Star Destroyer housed thousands of fighters, including bombers (and we know from the movies that bombs somehow work in deep space combat)? That's one blowed up Enterprise.

Look, they even had an episode of TNG where Enterprise was attacked by fighters. The point was that the fighters were laughably inadequate to threaten the Enterprise (especially since they can hit them with pinpoint shots).

[ImLawBoy]

You make the grab for power in the immediate, and then you work on winning over other houses. Westeros is war weary, and if they think the only way to find peace is to follow Yara, they might do it.

Look, I'm not saying any of this is any more plausible than what went down or that it would be the smartest move for Yara/House Greyjoy. I'm just saying that it would have been at least somewhat plausible and would have made for potentially good political machinations if there were, say, seven or so more episodes of the show.

And the Enterprise would be a speed bump to a Super Star Destroyer.

Ridiculous. They specifically established that lasers can't even penetrate the Enterprise D's navigational shields, let alone the main shields. Super Star Destroyers are armed with lasers. There's no way for it even to threaten the Enterprise.

What if, say, the Super Star Destroyer housed thousands of fighters, including bombers (and we know from the movies that bombs somehow work in deep space combat)? That's one blowed up Enterprise.

Look, they even had an episode of TNG where Enterprise was attacked by fighters. The point was that the fighters were laughably inadequate to threaten the Enterprise (especially since they can hit them with pinpoint shots).

NERD!!!!!

[McNutt]

That episode had fighters that were from a less advanced civilization.

What if the Star Destroyer launches a shuttle that jumps to hyperspace through the Enterprise? What then, Mr. Smarty Pants?