Game of Thrones Season 8

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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8

Post by hepcat »

Listen, you have the ability to instantaneously teleport mass and you're essentially guaranteed a win against anyone who doesn't.

Let's put this in perspective.

Let's say Cersei is the Enterprise and Dany is riding on top of a Star Destroyer.

"Ooooh, here I come with my fire weapons....whee....shit, you teleported a brick inside Drogon's head!"

<dies>

Now let's say Arya is Serenity and Joffrey is the General Lee...
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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8

Post by McNutt »

But you can't teleport through shields.

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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8

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The NERD is strong with this one. Let's send him to Dagobah to train with El Guapo.
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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8

Post by $iljanus »

I think even a small ship like the USS Defiant has a good chance against a Star Destroyer.

Now what's the action on Gandalf vs Yoda?
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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8

Post by hepcat »

Gandalf's got the reach, but Yoda's got the low center of gravity. It would be like trying to knock over a weeble.
$iljanus wrote: Tue May 21, 2019 3:20 pm I think even a small ship like the USS Defiant has a good chance against a Star Destroyer.
"Even"??? Turn in your Star Trek badge. The Defiant was built to fight the Borg, for cryin' out loud.
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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8

Post by $iljanus »

hepcat wrote:Gandalf's got the reach, but Yoda's got the low center of gravity. It would be like trying to knock over a weeble.
$iljanus wrote: Tue May 21, 2019 3:20 pm I think even a small ship like the USS Defiant has a good chance against a Star Destroyer.
"Even"??? Turn in your Star Trek badge. The Defiant was built to fight the Borg, for cryin' out loud.
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Now to get this back on topic....

Dragonriders of Pern vs Dany and her dragons.
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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8

Post by El Guapo »

hepcat wrote: Tue May 21, 2019 3:32 pm Gandalf's got the reach, but Yoda's got the low center of gravity. It would be like trying to knock over a weeble.
$iljanus wrote: Tue May 21, 2019 3:20 pm I think even a small ship like the USS Defiant has a good chance against a Star Destroyer.
"Even"??? Turn in your Star Trek badge. The Defiant was built to fight the Borg, for cryin' out loud.
Well, is Yoda going full dark side in this fight? It seems like Yoda / the Jedi have certain killing techniques (force choke, force lightning) that are off limits even if you're using them to kill someone who has it coming (and who you're trying to kill via other means), whereas there's no indication that Gandalf would hold back on particular methods of killing. If Yoda has all force options available to him (including choking / lightning) I would have him as the heavy favorite. Though even without that I'd probably lean towards Team Yoda, as I'm not sure that Gandalf has any good defense against a laser sword.
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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8

Post by gameoverman »

The way I remember it, Sansa declared the north's independence(didn't ask) after everyone said 'aye' to Bran being king. Yara had already committed. I don't think anyone would speak up demanding independence at that point. They'd need a way to defend it for one thing. If Yara were to go back on her word and demand independence then it's likely all the others would shut her down. They, as a group, did not seem interested in fracturing the kingdom. The difference with Sansa is the north had already decided they were independent and Sansa was merely informing everyone of that fact. Who is going to go north and change that? The king? He's Sansa's brother!
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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8

Post by ImLawBoy »

I don't remember Tyrion declaring "No Backsies!" before starting the process, so I think it would have pretty simple for someone to object or change their minds.
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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8

Post by El Guapo »

I think that to the extent that there's a difference, it's that The North has caused a lot more trouble for everyone else than the other regions and has been pressing their independence more strongly (and more violently). So there's a degree of "fuck it, let them go" supporting their claim to independence.
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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8

Post by ImLawBoy »

I don't remember how much they played it up in the show, but the books have the Iron Islanders as frequent troublemakers. The words of House Martell (of Dorne) are "Unbowed, Unbent, Unbroken", which is supposed to be a reference to their independent streak (although they have bent the knee, so I'm not entirely clear on that).
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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8

Post by Punisher »

El Guapo wrote: Tue May 21, 2019 2:44 pm Have people even sliced together videos showing how an Enterprise vs. Star Destroyer encounter would go? Most definitely.
There are even technical analysis videos
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gx8IqsmHckc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OWmEhfHtofU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9nzgbfJw-po

They also have other Vs like Star Wars Vs Battlestar Galactica and whatnot.

I do think the Empire would win over Dany's dragons though...
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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8

Post by Rumpy »

hepcat wrote: Tue May 21, 2019 1:37 pm And you'd think that two very large and very violent armies finding out their beloved mother/god figure was just killed by a man they didn't particularly like to begin with would've resulted in Jon dying approximately 14 seconds after the act was discovered.
Yeah, see that's what I meant about the lack of any reaction to Dany's fate. For such an important figure in the story, they seemed to be completely OK with it, and with no big consequences. Dany dies, and it's on with the show! A much bigger deal should been had. There should have been some crying foul. Jon getting captured, great! It would have been better if one of Dany's followers had tried killing him while he was captured.
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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8

Post by gameoverman »

Euron took the majority of the Iron Islands forces with him. Yara isn't commanding a whole lot of anything. We didn't get any details on Dorne but seeing how they recently lost all their male and female leaders, I think it's likely they are content with being team players right now instead of starting a war for independence.

The Unsullied and Dothraki are conditioned to follow the leader. Yara might score points with Grey Worm by saying he should be allowed to do whatever with Jon but that doesn't make her his leader. I don't see any chance for any of those other houses to get the Unsullied or Dothraki to follow them.

All this fighting over the throne has depleted everyone, so no one can make any big moves at this time. The north can declare independence mainly because the north is physically large and far away. The southerners would need to assemble a large army and then march it north. It's not like the old days when families like the Lannisters were fielding large armies all by themselves.

Westeros has more practical leadership now. What I can see happening is everyone getting more autonomy if not outright independence in the future. I don't think Bran and Tyrion would care so much about the wording if Westeros as a whole was doing well.
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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8

Post by Bakhtosh »

Pern over Dany - The dragons aren't as spikey, but have their telepathic links and the ability to go between.
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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8

Post by rittchard »

So George RR Martin on his blog when asked if the books' ending(s) would be the same as the show or different gives a tease of 4 yes's and 3 no's. Perhaps that was just some cheeky random teasing, or maybe he had specific things in his head as he wrote each yes and no. I tend to think it's the latter. If so, what do you think are the "big 7" items he thought of as "the ending" and which do you think will be the same/different? Here's mine:

1 - Jamie/Cersei die by rubble

A big NO. Two of the most important characters with such complex storylines dying from rubble can't be his intent. I'd guess Cersei may die by Zombie Catelyn's hands, which would explain why the writers had to come up with their own lame ending since they chose to write her out

2 - Bran takes the Throne

I'll guess yes. It's too big of a plot point to be just given to someone else. Since Bran is much more prominent in the books as well, it's not as much a stretch to have him take the throne, and I expect he will have additional major plot points as well, as opposed to just being a weird creeper

3 - Tyrion survives everything and becomes the Hand

Yes. It's pretty clear Tyrion is GRRM's favorite character so I can't imagine him not getting the kind of suitable ending he did.

4 - Dany goes crazy

Have to guess yes on this too. GRRM seems like the type that likes to torture his female characters, so turning the best one "dark" seems up his alley

5- Jon kills Dany

This is just a hunch but I'm going to go with No. I almost feel like the Jon/Dany romance won't even happen, it felt more like a TV construct at times. But then again it is a pretty big change to make so who knows. But if you factor in #6, perhaps Arya is the one who is finally able to stop her using her assassin skills?

6 - Arya kills the Night King and then rides off to join the cast of The Walking Dead (jk, I saw a picture of Maisie with Daryl)

I'm gonna say no-ish on this one. Since the Night King isn't really even in the books yet, it's hard to say what the plan is with him. But I can't imagine having spent so much time in training and going blind and being tortured to become an assassin she doesn't get a better use of her skills.

7 - Sansa becomes Queen of the North

It doesn't seem like that's the direction she's heading in the books, but I need one more yes (I went back and forth on this one and #5) and it was one of the few story arcs I felt was more fully developed, so having it in the books as well makes sense.
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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8

Post by Holman »

Yeah, GRRM has to have larger plans than what we've seen.

If nothing else, he has invested a large amount of pages in plotlines that never even made it into the series.

I suppose there are book spoiler risks in even bringing these up. Is that a problem?
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1) Lady Stoneheart -- Surely this plotline isn't just going to come to nothing. Catelyn has always seemed more important to GRRM than she was to the showrunners.

2) The supposed Aegon Targaryen (not Jon) and Jon Connington -- The existence of these characters complicates things far beyond TV Jon sleeping with his aunt.

3) Euron and Victarion Greyjoy -- Euron's magical discoveries go way beyond anything TV Euron could possibly manage. Victarion's conversion to the Red God seems like a significant incoming plotline.
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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8

Post by Jeff V »

Holman wrote: Tue May 21, 2019 8:46 pm Yeah, GRRM has to have larger plans than what we've seen.
You'd think, and maybe 20 years ago you'd be right. While the minor characters and story lines not covered in the series will create some work for him, I have no reason to expect he won't take the expedient route and direct all significant outcomes to match the series. I wouldn't be surprised if his contract with HBO even specified this be the case.

I'd love to be proved wrong.
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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8

Post by Ralph-Wiggum »

Maybe GRRM gave one response (yes/no) for each of the seven kingdoms?
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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8

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So you're saying that unlike the TV show, the final book in GRRM's series won't be a 9 page pamphlet?
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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8

Post by El Guapo »

rittchard wrote: Tue May 21, 2019 8:15 pm So George RR Martin on his blog when asked if the books' ending(s) would be the same as the show or different gives a tease of 4 yes's and 3 no's. Perhaps that was just some cheeky random teasing, or maybe he had specific things in his head as he wrote each yes and no. I tend to think it's the latter. If so, what do you think are the "big 7" items he thought of as "the ending" and which do you think will be the same/different? Here's mine:

1 - Jamie/Cersei die by rubble

A big NO. Two of the most important characters with such complex storylines dying from rubble can't be his intent. I'd guess Cersei may die by Zombie Catelyn's hands, which would explain why the writers had to come up with their own lame ending since they chose to write her out

2 - Bran takes the Throne

I'll guess yes. It's too big of a plot point to be just given to someone else. Since Bran is much more prominent in the books as well, it's not as much a stretch to have him take the throne, and I expect he will have additional major plot points as well, as opposed to just being a weird creeper

3 - Tyrion survives everything and becomes the Hand

Yes. It's pretty clear Tyrion is GRRM's favorite character so I can't imagine him not getting the kind of suitable ending he did.

4 - Dany goes crazy

Have to guess yes on this too. GRRM seems like the type that likes to torture his female characters, so turning the best one "dark" seems up his alley

5- Jon kills Dany

This is just a hunch but I'm going to go with No. I almost feel like the Jon/Dany romance won't even happen, it felt more like a TV construct at times. But then again it is a pretty big change to make so who knows. But if you factor in #6, perhaps Arya is the one who is finally able to stop her using her assassin skills?

6 - Arya kills the Night King and then rides off to join the cast of The Walking Dead (jk, I saw a picture of Maisie with Daryl)

I'm gonna say no-ish on this one. Since the Night King isn't really even in the books yet, it's hard to say what the plan is with him. But I can't imagine having spent so much time in training and going blind and being tortured to become an assassin she doesn't get a better use of her skills.

7 - Sansa becomes Queen of the North

It doesn't seem like that's the direction she's heading in the books, but I need one more yes (I went back and forth on this one and #5) and it was one of the few story arcs I felt was more fully developed, so having it in the books as well makes sense.
I think most of these will be the same in the books. I think #1 will almost certainly be different (in part because the book has the Valunqar prophesy and the show didn't), and *how* each of these happens will be wildly different (Dany's pathway to tyranny is likely to be pretty different).

If I had to pick three nos from the list above it would be #1, #6, and #5, in that order.
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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8

Post by Jeff V »

hepcat wrote: Wed May 22, 2019 8:29 am So you're saying that unlike the TV show, the final book in GRRM's series won't be a 9 page pamphlet?
It'll totally be that. Just a list of characters, their fates on the show, followed by a single comment: Likey/No Likey.
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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8

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Jeff V wrote: Wed May 22, 2019 9:59 am
hepcat wrote: Wed May 22, 2019 8:29 am So you're saying that unlike the TV show, the final book in GRRM's series won't be a 9 page pamphlet?
It'll totally be that. Just a list of characters, their fates on the show, followed by a single comment: Likey/No Likey.
The last book will be entirely composed of POV chapters by Hodor.
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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8

Post by msteelers »

That would be great. What if his inner monologue is the most verbose and well thought out of all the main characters, but all he can say is Hodor?

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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8

Post by Zaxxon »

Man, this topic went... weird. To get us back on point, here's the Hound roasting people for five minutes straight.
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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8

Post by gameoverman »

rittchard wrote: Tue May 21, 2019 8:15 pm So George RR Martin on his blog when asked if the books' ending(s) would be the same as the show or different gives a tease of 4 yes's and 3 no's. Perhaps that was just some cheeky random teasing, or maybe he had specific things in his head as he wrote each yes and no. I tend to think it's the latter. If so, what do you think are the "big 7" items he thought of as "the ending" and which do you think will be the same/different?
I started reading the books after season 3 of the show and the one thing that jumped out at me the most is the detail level is much, much higher in the books. That fact alone would mean the book ending will be vastly different than the show ending.
1. Jaime/Cersei dying in rubble is tv shorthand. It's a way of getting a lot done, reunited/attempted escape/coming to terms with the end, without using up too much screen time. In the books he will be able to portray all these elements in their own scenes and have them play out as long as needed. It won't just be BOOM/done!
2. I expect there will be a large amount of detail showing Bran arranging for this ending. In the book it will be clearer that this was the endgame he wanted. So yeah, I think Bran winds up king in the books too.
3. Tyrion was named temporary hand by his father. Then he winds up hand at the end. That can't be a coincidence. I think that was his fate in the books too.
4. I would expect more detail on her downward spiral. There might even be more infighting among her people. What we saw between Varys and Tyrion might just be a hint of what is really going on.
5. I think the Jon/Dany relationship will be a bigger part of the books. So I think he does kill her. The books will allow for more insight into what each one is thinking, which is something live action just doesn't do well at all.
6. In the show, Arya gives up revenge before getting everyone on her list. I think it'll be the same in the books. Outside of that, anything goes. That whole battle with the Night King might not even happen in the books. It allowed the show to assemble many characters in one spot so that various interactions could happen. That stuff can be spread out in books.
7. I think she will be queen of the north in the books. Sansa serves as the flipside to Dany. A girl no one expected anything from who goes on to be queen. Except Sansa was always about the people while Dany was always about the throne.
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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8

Post by McNutt »

I would doubt there is any battle with The Others, as shown in the TV show.

I would be surprised if Sansa becomes Queen of the North. She's still a young girl in the books and has not shown any leadership qualities.
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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8

Post by hepcat »

Side note: one of the sequels/prequels is supposedly set "thousands of years" before GoT. I really hope it isn't still a medieval Europe style culture. I mean, that would be stagnation at an amazing level. I hope they create a civilization that reflects a different time period in this world's history.
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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8

Post by McNutt »

Thousands of years? Ugh, that's not what I'm interested in at all.
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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8

Post by hepcat »

I wouldn't mind seeing the First Men and the war with the Children of the Forest. I think it could be fun. I just hope they're not creatively bankrupt to the point that they just recreate the same setting as GoT with new characters in a show that's supposed to be that far in the past.
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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8

Post by ImLawBoy »

That's one of the weird things about Martin's world that has been previously pointed out - they've been stuck in the same level of society/technology for a very, very long time. I would expect things to be largely the same. There will be some different houses and the seven kingdoms won't have been united yet, but it'll still be a feudal society.
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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8

Post by morlac »

I believe the Valyrians were more technologically/Magic advanced than modern times in GOT. All their knowledge was lost when Valyria exploded in fire. That ushered in a dark ages that lasted a long time and still reverberates to "modern times" Valyrian steel as an example but also their secrets in architecture, magic, etc. were all lost. How much advancement was made during our Dark Age's? Not a whole lot in 1,000 years. Id imagine that transferring from a magicked based society to a technology based society would not be very quick. They might not have computers but we saw advances in war machines (giant ballast), an impressive understanding of holistic medicine (undead Mountain!), some sort of fast traveling system that was implied...;). Seriously though when there is magic in the world it would stunt the growth of technology imo.

Edit to add more:

Hell even their seasons make no scientific sense it based on.....MAGIC!
Last edited by morlac on Wed May 22, 2019 5:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8

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Magic is kind of the default answer, but it's hard to believe that they wouldn't have uncovered electricity or internal combustion or something in thousands of years of having society. After all, magic may be present in that world, but it's hardly common. I'd be more willing to buy some kind of Citadel conspiracy to keep technology down, but I don't know how long they've been in place. I mean, just compare society today to society even 500 years ago.
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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8

Post by Jaymann »

Here is one way the books can diverge:

When the Night King has Jon Snow and Bran in dire straits, Lady Stoneheart can get close to the Night King and stab him in the back to save her children.
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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8

Post by morlac »

ImLawBoy wrote: Wed May 22, 2019 5:08 pm Magic is kind of the default answer, but it's hard to believe that they wouldn't have uncovered electricity or internal combustion or something in thousands of years of having society. After all, magic may be present in that world, but it's hardly common. I'd be more willing to buy some kind of Citadel conspiracy to keep technology down, but I don't know how long they've been in place. I mean, just compare society today to society even 500 years ago.
No conspiracy needed. That is most likely exactly how it played out (not unlike the Catholic church during the dark ages) Knowledge is a wonderful tool for control. The valyrians hoarding their tech/knowledge is how it was lost for all times.

Edit: Think about it though. Technology is how we can shape the world to our liking. In order to invent there has to be a guideline or rules that the world abides by. Physics for example or predictable seasons. When the world has no set defined rules because Magic! I would imagine it would deincentivize inventors to even bother trying. It would at min. stunt said growth.
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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8

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morlac wrote: Wed May 22, 2019 5:20 pm
ImLawBoy wrote: Wed May 22, 2019 5:08 pm Magic is kind of the default answer, but it's hard to believe that they wouldn't have uncovered electricity or internal combustion or something in thousands of years of having society. After all, magic may be present in that world, but it's hardly common. I'd be more willing to buy some kind of Citadel conspiracy to keep technology down, but I don't know how long they've been in place. I mean, just compare society today to society even 500 years ago.
No conspiracy needed. That is most likely exactly how it played out (not unlike the Catholic church during the dark ages) Knowledge is a wonderful tool for control. The valyrians hoarding their tech/knowledge is how it was lost for all times.
Well, that's kind of the definition of conspiracy, but whatever. It's still not believable that technology would be essentially stagnant for 5000+ years.
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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8

Post by morlac »

ImLawBoy wrote: Wed May 22, 2019 5:23 pm
morlac wrote: Wed May 22, 2019 5:20 pm
ImLawBoy wrote: Wed May 22, 2019 5:08 pm Magic is kind of the default answer, but it's hard to believe that they wouldn't have uncovered electricity or internal combustion or something in thousands of years of having society. After all, magic may be present in that world, but it's hardly common. I'd be more willing to buy some kind of Citadel conspiracy to keep technology down, but I don't know how long they've been in place. I mean, just compare society today to society even 500 years ago.
No conspiracy needed. That is most likely exactly how it played out (not unlike the Catholic church during the dark ages) Knowledge is a wonderful tool for control. The valyrians hoarding their tech/knowledge is how it was lost for all times.
Well, that's kind of the definition of conspiracy, but whatever. It's still not believable that technology would be essentially stagnant for 5000+ years.

Your thinking in our terms, which is unbelievable because we have never had Magic. That is a game changer. What they really need is a cultural/societal revolution getting away from Feudelism which would then help drive innovation.
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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8

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Zaxxon wrote: Wed May 22, 2019 10:47 am Man, this topic went... weird. To get us back on point, here's the Hound roasting people for five minutes straight.
Hilarious!
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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8

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morlac wrote: Wed May 22, 2019 5:29 pm
ImLawBoy wrote: Wed May 22, 2019 5:23 pm
morlac wrote: Wed May 22, 2019 5:20 pm
ImLawBoy wrote: Wed May 22, 2019 5:08 pm Magic is kind of the default answer, but it's hard to believe that they wouldn't have uncovered electricity or internal combustion or something in thousands of years of having society. After all, magic may be present in that world, but it's hardly common. I'd be more willing to buy some kind of Citadel conspiracy to keep technology down, but I don't know how long they've been in place. I mean, just compare society today to society even 500 years ago.
No conspiracy needed. That is most likely exactly how it played out (not unlike the Catholic church during the dark ages) Knowledge is a wonderful tool for control. The valyrians hoarding their tech/knowledge is how it was lost for all times.
Well, that's kind of the definition of conspiracy, but whatever. It's still not believable that technology would be essentially stagnant for 5000+ years.

Your thinking in our terms, which is unbelievable because we have never had Magic. That is a game changer. What they really need is a cultural/societal revolution getting away from Feudelism which would then help drive innovation.
No, I'm quite aware of the terms in which I'm thinking. As it's shown in the books and TV show, magic has very little impact on day-to-day life. The two biggest magic elements in that world are dragons and the undead, and until the events of the book start, neither has been seen in generations. This isn't a world where every major house keeps a House Wizard, and it isn't a completely rural/agrarian society, as evidenced by cities like King's Landing and some of the slaver cities being massive and densely populated. Someone there is bound to accidentally discover gunpowder or electricity or something like that. Magic is a cop out answer, IMO.
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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8

Post by morlac »

It's only a cop out because we can't relate. You have no idea what effect magic would have on innovation. Magic defies OUR known laws of physics. How could we have ever even come up with those in a world with magic. Add feudalism and a "dark age" full of non stop Wars amongst the prominent houses and you get stunted Tech growth. Now if our world of no Magic had a 1000 year Dark Age that set us back is it really that big a stretch to say in world where Magic is the highest form of knowledge and you can get a 5,000 year stretch. Feudalism is holding them back more than anything.

So in summary:

1. The most advanced Society kept their knowledge to themselves and suddenly were evaporated overnight 700 years ago. All their advanced knowledge lost.
2. World has Magic which deicentivizes innovation
3. World has been a feudal society for basically ever which deicentivizes innovation
4. Current most knowledgeable group keeps it a secret and shares only with a select few (Maesters).


Add all that up and 5,000 of minimal technology growth.
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