Game of Thrones Season 8

Grifman · Post by **Grifman** » Mon May 13, 2019 10:39 am

Exodor wrote: ↑Mon May 13, 2019 9:45 am I'm not at all surprised by Dany's actions - this is the same person who said she would "take what is hers with fire and blood" back in Qarth.

This is also the person who said that she wanted to “break the wheel” and the endless cycle of violence about ten times for every time she said the above.

Grifman · Post by **Grifman** » Mon May 13, 2019 10:42 am

coopasonic wrote: ↑Mon May 13, 2019 9:51 am
Grifman wrote: ↑Sun May 12, 2019 10:45 pm The burning of King’s Landing was militarily and totally unnecessary.
Not totally. Arya needed motivation. Now she has it. Jon and Tyrion don't have the balls, but Arya does.

A story/writers motivation is not the same as a story motivation.

Post by **ImLawBoy** » Mon May 13, 2019 10:51 am

Really interesting episode, and I'm still sorting out how I feel about it. At this point, I'm probably on the side that it was a good/great episode, with the caveat that it could have been so much better if they hadn't rushed so much.

GoT made its bones by subverting convention. Kids get injured/killed. Heroes die. Stories go in unexpected directions. In that sense, this was really a return to form. We're not getting the happy, Hollywood ending that some people had expected/feared (at least not without some incredible gymnastics next week). Things didn't go the conventional route.

The conventional route for Jaime would have been full redemption. This likely would have involved killing Cersei or at least fully abandoning her. This episode defied convention and subverted expectations by reminding us that Jaime is still deeply flawed.

The conventional route for Cersei would have been dying with a sneer on her lips at the hands of a hero. Instead, she dies whimpering in the arms of her brother/lover.

The conventional route for Arya would have been to succeed in her revenge list. Instead, she has an epiphany about the futility of it all. She goes and tries to help others to safety, but fails there, too.

The conventional route for Tyrion would have been to come up with a last minute brilliant plan to save everyone and atone for his mistakes. Instead, he just signed his death warrant in a futile effort.

The conventional route for The Hound would have been to confront and defeat his brother, likely involving fire. Instead . . . well, yeah. That happened and was pretty boring.

Obviously, the conventional route for Dany would have been to pull back from the brink of madness and not slaughter tens of thousands of innocents. But she didn't. She snapped. She was always someone with violent, vengeful tendencies. She kept them in check (mostly) through willpower and good advisors. Everything that allowed her to be a magnanimous ruler outside of Westeros was gone, though. She lost 2/3 of her dragons. She lost her good counselors in Missandei and Tyrion (who ran out of good ideas about midway through the series, it seems). Those loyal to her betrayed her in Varys and Jon. The people didn't love her as they did in the past, even after she sacrificed much of her army to save the world from the undead.

Now, had the show taken more time this season this could have been fleshed out a bit more, of course. It was still completely within her character, and it's not like the show didn't ham-fistedly tell us all season that she had a significant chance of breaking bad. Again, convention would have had her resisting and staying good. GoT doesn't do convention very well.

Stuff I didn't really like:
- As stated, the Clegane Bowl didn't do much for me.
- The Euron/Jaime battle seemed unnecessary (but I never really cared for how the show used Euron vs. the books). If you're going to do that, at least have Jaime tell him that Jaime's the father before Euron dies.
- The white horse. WTF?
- How much fire can one dragon produce? Doesn't it need to burn a lot of energy to create so much fire? Or is the answer just "dragons are magic"?

I'll also echo a common sentiment, even from those who didn't like the episode. It was really well done visually and in the editing. It made up for the Battle of Winterfell, which I was often lost during.

So what happens next week? I'm thinking of two major possibilities, but they're likely wrong. First is that Jon kills Dany and reluctantly claims the Iron Throne. He rules the six kingdoms (freeing the North to be independent under Queen Sansa Stark). Second is that Jon and Dany die together (killing each other?), definitively ending the line of the Targaryens. King's Landing is a smoking crater, so each of the seven kingdoms goes independent. As long as fucking Gendry isn't on the throne at the end.

McNutt · Post by **McNutt** » Mon May 13, 2019 10:53 am

Of course it was unnecessary. It was the act of a Targaryen who had become unhinged. We all wanted her to be the great light of justice, but that doesn't mean that's who she had to be.

Ralph-Wiggum · Post by **Ralph-Wiggum** » Mon May 13, 2019 10:53 am

I agree with most of the voices here that Dany laying waste to the city was pretty stupid and out of character. Yes, she has used her dragons to burn others before, but they've all been enemies and/or people that have done her wrong. Here she goes against everything she's stood for for 7 seasons and kills thousands (tens of thousands?) of innocent and almost certainly some of her own army. And for what? Because she was mad? Because she needed to be feared? None of it makes any sense.

Like most of the last two seasons, this episode was visually spectacular and incredibly shallow.

McNutt · Post by **McNutt** » Mon May 13, 2019 10:55 am

Well said, ImLawBoy. I agree with that post 100%.

McNutt · Post by **McNutt** » Mon May 13, 2019 10:59 am

There are several factors at play here for Dany.
1. She comes from a family known for going mad. The apple might not be falling far from the tree
2. The word that Jon is the true heir is out. She doesn't know how to handle this and she is seeing a real threat to her dream of ruling the kingdom. Remember, her goal was not a just ruler for the kingdom; it was for HER to rule the kindgom. Plus, she loved this guy. That might be too much for her to compute rationally.
3. She has dreamed of burning this city. That was never off the table for her.

Holman · Post by **Holman** » Mon May 13, 2019 11:06 am

ImLawBoy wrote: ↑Mon May 13, 2019 10:51 am Really interesting episode, and I'm still sorting out how I feel about it. At this point, I'm probably on the side that it was a good/great episode, with the caveat that it could have been so much better if they hadn't rushed so much.

GoT made its bones by subverting convention. Kids get injured/killed. Heroes die. Stories go in unexpected directions. In that sense, this was really a return to form. We're not getting the happy, Hollywood ending that some people had expected/feared (at least not without some incredible gymnastics next week). Things didn't go the conventional route.

[...]

Very good points, all!

Everything you say makes sense from 10,000 feet. I think the problem most of us have is with the ham-fisted way the show has tried to make too much happen with too little preparation. This season is easily the weakest run of episodes we've had.

George R.R. Martin would have done all of this subtly and powerfully and across 1,000 pages. The GoT showrunners have tried to yank the beast down to a quick finish, and no one is satisfied.

Holman · Post by **Holman** » Mon May 13, 2019 11:07 am

Tell me this: we've got a Targaryen going mad and literally incinerating King's Landing, and not once did we hear her say "Burn Them All"? Did I miss it?

Also, Cersei's death was about as fitting and satisfying as James T. Kirk's.

Smoove_B · Post by **Smoove_B** » Mon May 13, 2019 11:07 am

I think most (many?) agree that what unfolded was within the spectrum of what we could have expected. Really (I think) the issue is with the pace. I have absolutely no idea how they're going to "put a bow" on the series next week, but I'm guessing it's going to be as heavy and blunt as what we saw last night. I understand they were likely tired of working on the show and probably didn't fully appreciate what they'd been tasked with after running out of source material and then solely relying on GRRM cliff notes, but it's just a real unfortunate way to end it all (rushed) after the incredible run the show experienced. I mean, I'm thankful we're getting an ending (still waiting for Carnivàle, thanks HBO), but this isn't nearly as satisfying as I'd hoped.

Post by **ImLawBoy** » Mon May 13, 2019 11:09 am

No argument from me that this is all too rushed. These last two seasons should have been full length so that we could have come to this point in better shape.

McNutt · Post by **McNutt** » Mon May 13, 2019 11:15 am

I never once thought that even Martin's book would end with everything tied up in a bow. That's not the way world politics works.

noxiousdog · Post by **noxiousdog** » Mon May 13, 2019 11:38 am

Ralph-Wiggum wrote: ↑Mon May 13, 2019 10:53 am I agree with most of the voices here that Dany laying waste to the city was pretty stupid and out of character. Yes, she has used her dragons to burn others before, but they've all been enemies and/or people that have done her wrong. Here she goes against everything she's stood for for 7 seasons and kills thousands (tens of thousands?) of innocent and almost certainly some of her own army. And for what? Because she was mad? Because she needed to be feared? None of it makes any sense.

Not even that. It was because her boyfriend wouldn't kiss her.

Jaymann · Post by **Jaymann** » Mon May 13, 2019 11:40 am

Famous last words: "Do as your Queen commands!"

Exodor · Post by **Exodor** » Mon May 13, 2019 11:49 am

noxiousdog wrote: ↑Mon May 13, 2019 11:38 am Not even that. It was because her boyfriend wouldn't kiss her.

Or because, as she said, her only option is to rule by fear. Burning King's Landing is a pretty good way to make the rest of the seven kingdoms fear you. And also to revolt. I'm not saying it's a GOOD plan but the seeds for this have been planted from the very beginning.

I'm also fine with Cersei being killed by the collapsing symbol of the power she sought and lost.

Post by **ImLawBoy** » Mon May 13, 2019 12:21 pm

One nice touch I forgot to mention. I liked the green bursts of wildfire (or whatever it's called) popping up throughout King's Landing as Dany torched the city. It really drove home that she was fulfilling the legacy of her father the Mad King, as I assume they were hidden caches from when he was planning on blowing up the place before Jaime killed him.

naednek · Post by **naednek** » Mon May 13, 2019 12:24 pm

So I guess next week we'll find out which series had the worst ending Game of Thrones or The Sopranos

McNutt · Post by **McNutt** » Mon May 13, 2019 12:31 pm

I liked seeing those too. I'm guessing you're right about those being there from her father's days. Cersei used it to blow up one particular area, so I doubt she would have had that scattered about.

Exodor · Post by **Exodor** » Mon May 13, 2019 12:32 pm

naednek wrote: ↑Mon May 13, 2019 12:24 pm So I guess next week we'll find out which series had the worst ending Game of Thrones or The Sopranos

I loved The Sopranos ending.

I'm perplexed by the negative reaction to this episode. I think the series lowpoint was S07E06 with the ridiculous expedition north of the wall, the marathon run by Genry back to Eastwatch Castle and the teleporting Dany. Compared to that shite this season has been great. My biggest complaint is the way they filmed the battle sequences in S08E03 - too dark, too shaky, too hard to tell WTF is going on.

McNutt · Post by **McNutt** » Mon May 13, 2019 12:42 pm

I think the vast majority wanted to see:
1. Cersei die in a more traditional villain way
2. Jaime fully redeeming himself
3. Daenerys not being like her father

So basically people hated everything I loved about that episode.

And how about Grey Worm looking pretty happy that his queen gave him the go ahead to slaughter everyone? You know he hated holding back on the people that killed his woman.

Trent Steel · Post by **Trent Steel** » Mon May 13, 2019 12:58 pm

Exodor wrote: ↑Mon May 13, 2019 12:32 pm
naednek wrote: ↑Mon May 13, 2019 12:24 pm So I guess next week we'll find out which series had the worst ending Game of Thrones or The Sopranos
I loved The Sopranos ending.

Those who didn't like The Sopranos ending, didn't truly get The Sopranos.

McNutt · Post by **McNutt** » Mon May 13, 2019 12:58 pm

So what happens if Dany gets killed next episode? What armies are left?
The Unsullied are loyal to Dany and will not defect.
The North might not sign on to Jon as ruler because he served UNDER Dany.
The Greyjoys still have their small army that they held back.

Is there still an army big enough to unite the land? I don't see it. It seems that if Dany dies then the world goes back to being divided.

Grifman · Post by **Grifman** » Mon May 13, 2019 12:59 pm

Exodor wrote: ↑Mon May 13, 2019 12:32 pm I'm perplexed by the negative reaction to this episode.

Well, I can't help you there as most of us have gone into fair detail as to why we feel the way we do

Exodor · Post by **Exodor** » Mon May 13, 2019 1:03 pm

Grifman wrote: ↑Mon May 13, 2019 12:59 pm
Exodor wrote: ↑Mon May 13, 2019 12:32 pm I'm perplexed by the negative reaction to this episode.
Well, I can't help you there as most of us have gone into fair detail as to why we feel the way we do

The complaints seem to center around Dany's heel turn (which has been foreshadowed since S1) and Jamie's return to Cersei (even though he has always proclaimed that she's the only thing in the world that matters to him).

McNutt · Post by **McNutt** » Mon May 13, 2019 1:07 pm

Dany's and Jaime's actions were certainly on par with what we've seen of them. People were just hoping that wouldn't be the case. Tropes show up in movies a lot, not just because the writers are lazy, but because it's what a lot of people demand.

Holman · Post by **Holman** » Mon May 13, 2019 1:12 pm

Exodor wrote: ↑Mon May 13, 2019 11:49 am
noxiousdog wrote: ↑Mon May 13, 2019 11:38 am Not even that. It was because her boyfriend wouldn't kiss her.
Or because, as she said, her only option is to rule by fear. Burning King's Landing is a pretty good way to make the rest of the seven kingdoms fear you. And also to revolt. I'm not saying it's a GOOD plan but the seeds for this have been planted from the very beginning.

That's what felt so undermotivated.

Wandering thoughts...

"Ruling by Fear" was *never* Dany's only option. That choice (and the script really made us see it as a choice rather than as something forced upon her) came when Jon refused her kiss and implicitly refused... what, co-rulership? Abdication? We've never been given any sense of Jon was a danger to Dany's claim. He never did anything but insist she was his queen.

So she picked Fear over Mercy in direct response to Jon, but Fear was certainly never her only option in attacking King's Landing. It was quite the opposite: she had the same army as yesterday, and they even were at the point of victory when she went into her rage. Am I right in remembering that some local bells were ringing and that the Lannisters had thrown down their arms *before* Dany began her rampage?

It seems like we were asked to believe that Dany went into her rage because Cersei was still over in the Red Keep, taunting her by existing. It would have made sense if she had made a beeline for the Red Keep and done a glorious dragon attack there, but instead she just started murdering innocents and kept it up for an hour. There's no explanation for this other than sudden madness, and sudden madness (every storyteller knows this) is a weak narrative crutch.

coopasonic · Post by **coopasonic** » Mon May 13, 2019 1:16 pm

Holman wrote: ↑Mon May 13, 2019 1:12 pm Am I right in remembering that some local bells were ringing and that the Lannisters had thrown down their arms *before* Dany began her rampage?

Yes.

In fact the scene basically felt like ringing bells were pushing her over the edge. Loud noises set me off too.

noxiousdog · Post by **noxiousdog** » Mon May 13, 2019 1:19 pm

Holman wrote: ↑Mon May 13, 2019 1:12 pm
Exodor wrote: ↑Mon May 13, 2019 11:49 am
noxiousdog wrote: ↑Mon May 13, 2019 11:38 am Not even that. It was because her boyfriend wouldn't kiss her.
Or because, as she said, her only option is to rule by fear. Burning King's Landing is a pretty good way to make the rest of the seven kingdoms fear you. And also to revolt. I'm not saying it's a GOOD plan but the seeds for this have been planted from the very beginning.
That's what felt so undermotivated.

Wandering thoughts...

"Ruling by Fear" was *never* Dany's only option. That choice (and the script really made us see it as a choice rather than as something forced upon her) came when Jon refused her kiss and implicitly refused... what, co-rulership? Abdication? We've never been given any sense of Jon was a danger to Dany's claim. He never did anything but insist she was his queen.

I agree. She didn't rule the Dothraki, the Unsullied, Maureen, Jon, Tyrion, Dorn, or the Iron Islands by fear.

I think this review is pretty good.

The show has taken its most powerful female character, whose arc was framed by questions about whether or not women can lead, and turned her into a war criminal placed in opposition with a boring white dude who is positioned as the savior of Westeros. It took the remnants of her foreign armies, the only representation of people of color in the series, and turned them into the savages that Westeros imagined them to be. Regardless of the thematic value of these stories, or how much they were or were not justified by the story, I would argue the episode barrels forward without fully reckoning with how the choices being made echo the series’ longstanding issues in these areas.

...

I expected going into the episode that this was leading up to a moment when Jaime would have to stop Cersei from doing something even worse, or where he would see that the cause was lost and play some role in stopping her. And so as the story kept moving, and it became about Jaime being there to comfort Cersei in her emotionally vulnerable moment of reckoning when faced by her imminent demise, I was more than a bit confused... I’m open to the argument that their characters’ fates should be tied together, but to see this ending play out without Cersei being forced to reckon with her own actions, and with Jaime never stopping to take stock of this decision, is hard to swallow. Are we supposed to be moved by Cersei’s vulnerability after we’ve seen her so steadfast at committing the same kind of atrocities that just turned Daenerys into a villain?

...

this final season has expedited this process, pushing aside characters who are no longer central to the endgame that will ultimately, for better or worse, define the show’s legacy. But two weeks after the Night King was revealed to be something of an empty antagonist, and a week after Cersei was reframed as the ultimate evil, to have the focus shift again to Daenerys feels like whiplash, not poetry

...

It’s that the final season is failing to live up to what I believe a final season should do: enriching the show that came before it. And while the notion that power corrupts has always been at the heart of this story, the way it manifests here feels like a simplification of the show and its ideas, as opposed to a culmination of its larger journey.

MHS · Post by **MHS** » Mon May 13, 2019 1:21 pm

I think it’s just hard because we feel that we deserve the story the way we think Martin would have made it. But the reality is, he hasn’t been able to write that story either. He’s been trying for eight+ years and failing. So maybe there just were no good answers. Maybe he created a wonderful premise that painted him into a corner and his endings would have been just as bad. God knows I read some of the theories on how people think it should play out in social media (including here) and it reminds me how hard creating a satisfying and logical story is. There’s a reason I tell people to read the first three books and pretend that’s the end of the series.

Ralph-Wiggum · Post by **Ralph-Wiggum** » Mon May 13, 2019 1:24 pm

Exodor wrote: ↑Mon May 13, 2019 1:03 pm
Grifman wrote: ↑Mon May 13, 2019 12:59 pm
Exodor wrote: ↑Mon May 13, 2019 12:32 pm I'm perplexed by the negative reaction to this episode.
Well, I can't help you there as most of us have gone into fair detail as to why we feel the way we do
The complaints seem to center around Dany's heel turn (which has been foreshadowed since S1)

Please point out to me previous times where Dany has killed innocents for no reason whatsoever. Since Season 1 she has always been the champion of the downtrodden. Now all of a sudden she decides to kill thousands of people for no apparent reason at all? It's not that we didn't expect Dany to go all fire-crazy this episode - the writers couldn't have been more obvious the last few episodes that it was going to happen - but the sudden turn of Dany from a leader for the people to the greatest mass murderer in Westeros was ridiculously abrupt. And it accomplished absolutely nothing.

Other comments on this episode:

1) That's the fate of the famed Golden Compass? They stand in front the the gate and all get wiped out by one burst of flame? Also, I thought they were supposed to be 20,000 strong. A big let-down clearly done for time constraint reasons.

2) What happened to the scorpions? Last episode they were magical heat seeking missile firers and this episode they were beyond useless.

3) As pointed out, Euron swimming to shore right when Jaime arrives was pretty dumb. But I guess they just needed him dead and couldn't figure out a better way to do it.

4) I didn't hate-hate the way Cersei and Jaime ended. Something more dramatic would have been nice, but I didn't feel it was too out of character of Jaime to go back to Cersei with the hopes of getting her out of the city.

Post by **ImLawBoy** » Mon May 13, 2019 1:27 pm

Holman wrote: ↑Mon May 13, 2019 1:12 pm "Ruling by Fear" was *never* Dany's only option. That choice (and the script really made us see it as a choice rather than as something forced upon her) came when Jon refused her kiss and implicitly refused... what, co-rulership? Abdication? We've never been given any sense of Jon was a danger to Dany's claim. He never did anything but insist she was his queen.

So she picked Fear over Mercy in direct response to Jon, but Fear was certainly never her only option in attacking King's Landing.

I think that's an oversimplification that makes it seem like everything was hunky-dory until Jon want to swap spit. There was plenty of other stuff leading up to that, including what she saw as Jon's betrayal by disclosing his lineage to his family. She may well have been ready to go on the rampage regardless, with the lack of affection coming into play next week when they try to figure out loyalties and governance.

noxiousdog wrote: ↑Mon May 13, 2019 1:19 pm She didn't rule the Dothraki, the Unsullied, Maureen, Jon, Tyrion, Dorn, or the Iron Islands by fear.

No, but those people loved her (or at least tolerated her in the last couple of instances). Plus, let's not forget, she'd fallen into madness by this point. The show has been clear that madness runs the Targaryen blood (although they certainly could have emphasized this more). She's not necessarily thinking logically here.

Post by **ImLawBoy** » Mon May 13, 2019 1:34 pm

Ralph-Wiggum wrote: ↑Mon May 13, 2019 1:24 pm Please point out to me previous times where Dany has killed innocents for no reason whatsoever. Since Season 1 she has always been the champion of the downtrodden. Now all of a sudden she decides to kill thousands of people for no apparent reason at all? It's not that we didn't expect Dany to go all fire-crazy this episode - the writers couldn't have been more obvious the last few episodes that it was going to happen - but the sudden turn of Dany from a leader for the people to the greatest mass murderer in Westeros was ridiculously abrupt. And it accomplished absolutely nothing.

She hadn't gone insane in Season 1.

Ralph-Wiggum wrote:1) That's the fate of the famed Golden Compass? They stand in front the the gate and all get wiped out by one burst of flame? Also, I thought they were supposed to be 20,000 strong. A big let-down clearly done for time constraint reasons.

I liked it. Another example of misdirection and subversion of convention. Built up to all that, and they couldn't stand to one dragon.

Ralph-Wiggum wrote:2) What happened to the scorpions? Last episode they were magical heat seeking missile firers and this episode they were beyond useless.

In the last episode they were waiting in ambush and knew where the dragons were coming from, so they we're already aiming in the general area. Still, they only managed 3 dragon hits, I think. This time Dany had the advantage and used the cumbersome nature of the scorpions to move around and take them out.

Ralph-Wiggum wrote:3) As pointed out, Euron swimming to shore right when Jaime arrives was pretty dumb. But I guess they just needed him dead and couldn't figure out a better way to do it.

I would have been happy if they had just had him burn on his boat trying to get off a scorpion shot. He wasn't interesting enough in the show to deserve a death duel with Jaime.

msteelers · Post by **msteelers** » Mon May 13, 2019 1:36 pm

Going back to Sopranos, there was a lot of grief over the ending initially because it wasn’t anything like the ending we were hoping to see. But over time, I think people have started looking back fondly on the ending. I’ve seen in multiple places where it’s ranked up with some of the best tv endings of all time. I certainly hated it live, but have grown to appreciate what it was trying to do.

I’m not saying GOT is going to go down as the greatest ending ever, but I do think that part of what is getting people upset is that the show isn’t ending at all the way they thought/hoped it would. I think that over time, when we look back and watch the show for what it is, and not what we want it to be, there will be a fonder memory of how it ends.

Holman · Post by **Holman** » Mon May 13, 2019 1:37 pm

ImLawBoy wrote: ↑Mon May 13, 2019 1:27 pm
Holman wrote: ↑Mon May 13, 2019 1:12 pm "Ruling by Fear" was *never* Dany's only option. That choice (and the script really made us see it as a choice rather than as something forced upon her) came when Jon refused her kiss and implicitly refused... what, co-rulership? Abdication? We've never been given any sense of Jon was a danger to Dany's claim. He never did anything but insist she was his queen.

So she picked Fear over Mercy in direct response to Jon, but Fear was certainly never her only option in attacking King's Landing.
I think that's an oversimplification that makes it seem like everything was hunky-dory until Jon want to swap spit. There was plenty of other stuff leading up to that, including what she saw as Jon's betrayal by disclosing his lineage to his family. She may well have been ready to go on the rampage regardless, with the lack of affection coming into play next week when they try to figure out loyalties and governance.

Of course things have been rough for a long time, but we can't overlook that Dany went full fiery Fear over Mercy only *after* they had won the battle without that kind of Fear.

She was probably about 30 minutes from sitting on the Iron Throne. No one was in a position to stop her. Yes, Jon's spoiler was a betrayal, but hardly the biggest she had ever faced before, and we've had no indication that he would ever unbend the knee. Jon and the army were as loyal as ever. The moment right before Dany's Big Scowl was the closest to certain triumph she has ever been.

It just felt like a move that was good for the screenwriters, not good for the story.

Rumpy · Post by **Rumpy** » Mon May 13, 2019 1:37 pm

Come to think of it, this episode seemed to be opposites day. Most if not all character oriented things seemed to have taken a 180 from their original course. That's why I feel it comes across feeling unsatisfying.

Post by **ImLawBoy** » Mon May 13, 2019 1:37 pm

msteelers wrote: ↑Mon May 13, 2019 1:36 pm Going back to Sopranos, there was a lot of grief over the ending initially because it wasn’t anything like the ending we were hoping to see. But over time, I think people have started looking back fondly on the ending. I’ve seen in multiple places where it’s ranked up with some of the best tv endings of all time. I certainly hated it live, but have grown to appreciate what it was trying to do.

I’m not saying GOT is going to go down as the greatest ending ever, but I do think that part of what is getting people upset is that the show isn’t ending at all the way they thought/hoped it would. I think that over time, when we look back and watch the show for what it is, and not what we want it to be, there will be a fonder memory of how it ends.

Unless it ends with fucking Gendry on the throne.

msteelers · Post by **msteelers** » Mon May 13, 2019 1:40 pm

ImLawBoy wrote:
msteelers wrote: ↑Mon May 13, 2019 1:36 pm Going back to Sopranos, there was a lot of grief over the ending initially because it wasn’t anything like the ending we were hoping to see. But over time, I think people have started looking back fondly on the ending. I’ve seen in multiple places where it’s ranked up with some of the best tv endings of all time. I certainly hated it live, but have grown to appreciate what it was trying to do.

I’m not saying GOT is going to go down as the greatest ending ever, but I do think that part of what is getting people upset is that the show isn’t ending at all the way they thought/hoped it would. I think that over time, when we look back and watch the show for what it is, and not what we want it to be, there will be a fonder memory of how it ends.
Unless it ends with fucking Gendry on the throne.

His dad reigned over one of the greatest eras in peace the kingdom has ever known. So, at this point there are worse options.

#TeamGendry

Post by **ImLawBoy** » Mon May 13, 2019 1:43 pm

Holman wrote: ↑Mon May 13, 2019 1:37 pm
ImLawBoy wrote: ↑Mon May 13, 2019 1:27 pm
Holman wrote: ↑Mon May 13, 2019 1:12 pm "Ruling by Fear" was *never* Dany's only option. That choice (and the script really made us see it as a choice rather than as something forced upon her) came when Jon refused her kiss and implicitly refused... what, co-rulership? Abdication? We've never been given any sense of Jon was a danger to Dany's claim. He never did anything but insist she was his queen.

So she picked Fear over Mercy in direct response to Jon, but Fear was certainly never her only option in attacking King's Landing.
I think that's an oversimplification that makes it seem like everything was hunky-dory until Jon want to swap spit. There was plenty of other stuff leading up to that, including what she saw as Jon's betrayal by disclosing his lineage to his family. She may well have been ready to go on the rampage regardless, with the lack of affection coming into play next week when they try to figure out loyalties and governance.
Of course things have been rough for a long time, but we can't overlook that Dany went full fiery Fear over Mercy only *after* they had won the battle without that kind of Fear.

She was probably about 30 minutes from sitting on the Iron Throne. No one was in a position to stop her. Yes, Jon's spoiler was a betrayal, but hardly the biggest she had ever faced before, and we've had no indication that he would ever unbend the knee. Jon and the army were as loyal as ever. The moment right before Dany's Big Scowl was the closest to certain triumph she has ever been.

It just felt like a move that was good for the screenwriters, not good for the story.

Again, had this season been full length, this all could have been handled better. It certainly does feel compressed. Still, if you accept that Dany had gone over into madness by this point, her actions make more sense (in an insane sort of way). Since Missandei's and dragon #2's deaths, she had locked herself up in her room and wasn't eating. Varys had his spies trying to suss her out because of his concerns for her sanity. The show was pretty plainly trying to set up the insanity defense, but they didn't want to go too far and ruin the suspense of the actual moment.

Ralph-Wiggum · Post by **Ralph-Wiggum** » Mon May 13, 2019 1:43 pm

ImLawBoy wrote: ↑Mon May 13, 2019 1:34 pm
Ralph-Wiggum wrote: ↑Mon May 13, 2019 1:24 pm Please point out to me previous times where Dany has killed innocents for no reason whatsoever. Since Season 1 she has always been the champion of the downtrodden. Now all of a sudden she decides to kill thousands of people for no apparent reason at all? It's not that we didn't expect Dany to go all fire-crazy this episode - the writers couldn't have been more obvious the last few episodes that it was going to happen - but the sudden turn of Dany from a leader for the people to the greatest mass murderer in Westeros was ridiculously abrupt. And it accomplished absolutely nothing.
She hadn't gone insane in Season 1.

Or in Seasons 2 - 7, apparently.

But now she goes insane in one episode. If I remember correctly, her father slowly went insane over years (decades?) and it wasn't until near the end of his rule that he started burning people. Even then, he burned people he thought were conspiring against him. Did Dany think all the people she torched were threats? It was just way too much, way too fast.

Post by **ImLawBoy** » Mon May 13, 2019 1:45 pm

msteelers wrote: ↑Mon May 13, 2019 1:40 pm
ImLawBoy wrote:
msteelers wrote: ↑Mon May 13, 2019 1:36 pm Going back to Sopranos, there was a lot of grief over the ending initially because it wasn’t anything like the ending we were hoping to see. But over time, I think people have started looking back fondly on the ending. I’ve seen in multiple places where it’s ranked up with some of the best tv endings of all time. I certainly hated it live, but have grown to appreciate what it was trying to do.

I’m not saying GOT is going to go down as the greatest ending ever, but I do think that part of what is getting people upset is that the show isn’t ending at all the way they thought/hoped it would. I think that over time, when we look back and watch the show for what it is, and not what we want it to be, there will be a fonder memory of how it ends.
Unless it ends with fucking Gendry on the throne.
His dad reigned over one of the greatest eras in peace the kingdom has ever known. So, at this point there are worse options.

#TeamGendry

He's a blacksmith who's dad (who he never even knew) started a massive war to take over a kingdom because he was horny. He then proposed to Arya because she gave him some.

#TeamNotFuckingGendry