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Game of Thrones Season 8

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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8

Post by tjg_marantz » Mon May 27, 2019 5:19 pm

Watching it tonight with Chernobyl.
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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8

Post by Drazzil » Wed May 29, 2019 11:34 pm

Annnnd one of the GoT prequels has already been cancelled.
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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8

Post by hepcat » Thu May 30, 2019 11:37 am

tjg_marantz wrote:
Mon May 27, 2019 5:19 pm
Watching it tonight with Chernobyl.
Let us know if he goes nuclear over the ending.
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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8

Post by Zaxxon » Thu May 30, 2019 1:02 pm

Drazzil wrote:
Wed May 29, 2019 11:34 pm
Annnnd one of the GoT prequels has already been cancelled.
I mean, this is expected, right? They clearly aren't going to make five.

That said, link?

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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8

Post by hepcat » Thu May 30, 2019 6:06 pm

I thought they said they planned on only doing one at a time?
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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8

Post by Holman » Thu May 30, 2019 6:33 pm

OK, listen up. Imma gonna change my mind.

(Rushed thoughts while I prepare dinner for six:)

I've read ASoI&F just once all the way through. Recently I finished a careful re-read of the first book. Knowing what we know about GRRM's apparent intentions (assuming the broad outline of the TV series is accurate), it's hard not to see him planting the seeds of a morally damaged and potentially ruthless Dany from the very beginning. Everything she does, especially after Drogo's wounding, is focused on the temptations of Targaryen ruthlessness. ("Don't look back. Don't look back. I am the blood of the dragon.") In TV-series retrospect, it's now hard not to see the dragon-hatching as something ominous rather than inspiring, but GRRM's writing supports this from the beginning.

I'm going to keep re-reading, but what I suspect (remembering my first time through) is that GRRM keeps Dany's ambiguity vital to her character. The problem is that the TV series ignored a lot of this.

Over and over, the show presented Dany as an inspiring liberator without the dark underside except at a few chosen and then apparently-resolved realpolitik crises. They just couldn't keep up with GRRM's complexity because they were too invested in loving the character and making us love her too--it was clear that Emilia Clarke was one of their stars, and (as with Peter Dinklage) they were wary of anything that would tarnish her appeal. Eventually they reached the point in GRRM's plot where that love was meant to collapse, but their presentation hadn't prepared us for it.

A longer final season might have made it easier, but I kind of think the mistakes began early.
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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8

Post by Drazzil » Thu May 30, 2019 7:14 pm

Zaxxon wrote:
Thu May 30, 2019 1:02 pm
Drazzil wrote:
Wed May 29, 2019 11:34 pm
Annnnd one of the GoT prequels has already been cancelled.
I mean, this is expected, right? They clearly aren't going to make five.

That said, link?
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source= ... Rt&ampcf=1
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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8

Post by Rumpy » Thu May 30, 2019 10:36 pm

Holman wrote:
Thu May 30, 2019 6:33 pm
Over and over, the show presented Dany as an inspiring liberator without the dark underside except at a few chosen and then apparently-resolved realpolitik crises. They just couldn't keep up with GRRM's complexity because they were too invested in loving the character and making us love her too--it was clear that Emilia Clarke was one of their stars, and (as with Peter Dinklage) they were wary of anything that would tarnish her appeal. Eventually they reached the point in GRRM's plot where that love was meant to collapse, but their presentation hadn't prepared us for it.
I don't think anyone really disagrees over her change, but the manner in how abrupt it was due to the lack of development this season. I really wish they'd taken HBO's offer of having more episodes to tell the story rather than be forced to compromise and then explain their reasoning in an aftershow. That's just poor, and honestly I really hate the trend of explaining necessary backstory in additional material. The same thing was done with Abram's Star Trek with the Countdown comic. If these things were to be done correctly in the first place, we wouldn't need "additional" explanation.
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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8

Post by Jeff V » Fri May 31, 2019 10:44 am

About two weeks before the last season started, I started watching the whole series again, and that includes re-watching season 8 as well. Knowing how it all turns out then rewatching you pick up on some subtle foreshadowing that went completely unnoticed the first time around, adding a little more context and character development than I gave credit for first time through. The most prophetic, perhaps, was Cersei way back in Season 1. "When you play the Game of Thrones, you win or you die." They certainly kept that in mind when determining the fates of all the characters.

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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8

Post by El Guapo » Fri May 31, 2019 10:54 am

Jeff V wrote:
Fri May 31, 2019 10:44 am
About two weeks before the last season started, I started watching the whole series again, and that includes re-watching season 8 as well. Knowing how it all turns out then rewatching you pick up on some subtle foreshadowing that went completely unnoticed the first time around, adding a little more context and character development than I gave credit for first time through. The most prophetic, perhaps, was Cersei way back in Season 1. "When you play the Game of Thrones, you win or you die." They certainly kept that in mind when determining the fates of all the characters.
When my wife binge-watched the show for the first time earlier this year I wound up rewatching a lot of the show as well. I was way less sympathetic to Ned this time around and way more sympathetic to Tywin. If Ned had just added one dose of common sense to his pigheadedness a lot fewer people would have died. Whereas Tywin, while he's ruthless, is about a good a rule as one would hope for - works behind the scenes to minimize armed conflict / fighting, and seems like a reasonably good administrator.

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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8

Post by McNutt » Fri May 31, 2019 10:57 am

Tywin is a first class asshole, but that man knows how to run a kingdom and keep its people safe and happy.

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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8

Post by ImLawBoy » Fri May 31, 2019 10:59 am

Between Ned's pigheadedness and Catelyn's ill-considered kidnapping of Tyrion, the Stark parents have a lot of (indirect) blood on their hands.
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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8

Post by Rumpy » Fri May 31, 2019 1:31 pm

Jeff V wrote:
Fri May 31, 2019 10:44 am
"When you play the Game of Thrones, you win or you die." They certainly kept that in mind when determining the fates of all the characters.
That's not so much prophetic as it is expected. We all knew before going in that major characters would eventually die. I saw it more as a statement of fact. It even almost felt like she was breaking the fourth wall by mentioning the show's title. It was also a very corny line.
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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8

Post by Jeff V » Fri May 31, 2019 2:20 pm

Rumpy wrote:
Fri May 31, 2019 1:31 pm
It was also a very corny line.
Yes, but in the end, all players did die. When it was decided Dany would not win, there was no way to keep her alive.

Another foreshadowing incident was when Arya and Brienne were sparring. Arya pulled the knife-drop trick on her...the same move she used against the Night King.

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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8

Post by morlac » Fri May 31, 2019 3:16 pm

McNutt wrote:
Fri May 31, 2019 10:57 am
Tywin is a first class asshole, but that man knows how to run a kingdom and keep its people safe and happy.
I know some Weeding guest who may disagree.

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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8

Post by morlac » Fri May 31, 2019 3:22 pm

ImLawBoy wrote:
Fri May 31, 2019 10:59 am
Between Ned's pigheadedness and Catelyn's ill-considered kidnapping of Tyrion, the Stark parents have a lot of (indirect) blood on their hands.
Ned is who he is. His honor was easily predictable and used against him. He was a pawn for better players to set things in motion. Catelyn was impulsive and stupid. I weigh blame much more towards Cat than Ned. Ned's honor was at least passed down and instrumental to John Snow's character and "success" in the story.

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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8

Post by El Guapo » Fri May 31, 2019 3:35 pm

morlac wrote:
Fri May 31, 2019 3:16 pm
McNutt wrote:
Fri May 31, 2019 10:57 am
Tywin is a first class asshole, but that man knows how to run a kingdom and keep its people safe and happy.
I know some Weeding guest who may disagree.
Hey, that ended a war. Many more people would have died (including a big chunk of the people who died at that wedding) if the army had proceeded as planned to Casterly Rock.

And, you know, maybe if Ned Stark weren't so squeamish about assassinating a young heir to the Targaryan dynasty King's Landing wouldn't have been burned to the damn ground.

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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8

Post by Blackhawk » Fri May 31, 2019 4:11 pm

Jeff V wrote:
Fri May 31, 2019 2:20 pm


Another foreshadowing incident was when Arya and Brienne were sparring. Arya pulled the knife-drop trick on her...the same move she used against the Night King.
I don't think that was so much literary foreshadowing as it was them teaching the audience that this was a skill that she possessed.
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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8

Post by hepcat » Fri May 31, 2019 4:21 pm

Sounds like foreshadowing to me.
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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8

Post by morlac » Fri May 31, 2019 4:22 pm

El Guapo wrote:
Fri May 31, 2019 3:35 pm
morlac wrote:
Fri May 31, 2019 3:16 pm
McNutt wrote:
Fri May 31, 2019 10:57 am
Tywin is a first class asshole, but that man knows how to run a kingdom and keep its people safe and happy.
I know some Weeding guest who may disagree.
Hey, that ended a war. Many more people would have died (including a big chunk of the people who died at that wedding) if the army had proceeded as planned to Casterly Rock.

And, you know, maybe if Ned Stark weren't so squeamish about assassinating a young heir to the Targaryan dynasty King's Landing wouldn't have been burned to the damn ground.
So everyone was safe and Happy after that were they? I bet the Northerner's slept so much better with the Bolton's in power in the north than the Starks did. Ditto the Riverlands, nothing but sunshine and lollipops! It didn't end the war, it took out one Faction and guaranteed a violent rebuttal. It brought zero safety and happiness for the people.

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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8

Post by Zaxxon » Mon Jun 03, 2019 9:32 am

Great discussion: "The Day Game of Thrones Died"


Key quote that sums up my issues far more succinctly than I did: "Foreshadowing is not character development."

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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8

Post by ImLawBoy » Mon Jun 03, 2019 10:25 am

I feel like we're at a point where most people are in agreement Dany's breaking bad was foreshadowed, but still rushed and handled clumsily (i.e., poor character development). The rift is how forgiving of the show we're willing to be.

I don't get to watch a lot of TV, and I haven't been to a theater since The Last Jedi. I invested over 70 hours into GoT, which constitutes a large part of my non-sports TV time. While I would have loved to have the eventual downfall of Dany handled better, I'm not going to let that blemish ruin the show for me. It was still good and fun and entertaining to me, even if the last two seasons weren't as great as the initial run.

I don't have an issue with others taking a differing view of this, as everyone values different things differently. I just feel like we're kind of at the point where we're repeating the same arguments, no one really disputes the facts, and we're spinning our wheels.
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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8

Post by hepcat » Mon Jun 03, 2019 11:43 am

I still believe that what most folks considered acts of foreshadowing for Dany's break with reality were perfectly reasonable within the context of a young ruler trying to establish control of an empire. None of it struck me as indicative of a future act of madness driven genocide against innocent people. :wink:
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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8

Post by Zaxxon » Mon Jun 03, 2019 11:46 am

ImLawBoy wrote:
Mon Jun 03, 2019 10:25 am
While I would have loved to have the eventual downfall of Dany handled better, I'm not going to let that blemish ruin the show for me. It was still good and fun and entertaining to me, even if the last two seasons weren't as great as the initial run.
Absolutely. The show is a masterpiece. That the ending was (or may have been) disappointing doesn't ruin the show. For me, it's just all the more maddening because I really believe it was an own-goal. They were capable of doing better (and just needed a few more eps to do so). They chose not to. #hulksmash
I don't have an issue with others taking a differing view of this, as everyone values different things differently. I just feel like we're kind of at the point where we're repeating the same arguments, no one really disputes the facts, and we're spinning our wheels.
Definitely. I just thought that video did a particularly good job of making the argument. Certainly better than I did even though I was shooting for the same two main points.

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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8

Post by Exodor » Mon Jun 03, 2019 1:13 pm

ImLawBoy wrote:
Mon Jun 03, 2019 10:25 am
It was still good and fun and entertaining to me, even if the last two seasons weren't as great as the initial run.
This is how I feel about the books, too - the first three were great and the last two are mediocre at best.

Perhaps B&W were trying to pay tribute to the books by having the quality slide the last two seasons? :mrgreen:

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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8

Post by Rumpy » Mon Jun 03, 2019 1:49 pm

hepcat wrote:
Mon Jun 03, 2019 11:43 am
I still believe that what most folks considered acts of foreshadowing for Dany's break with reality were perfectly reasonable within the context of a young ruler trying to establish control of an empire. None of it struck me as indicative of a future act of madness driven genocide against innocent people. :wink:
Yep, that's what I feel too. She herself was harshly treated before she was able to break free and set her own path. For the most part, she had vowed not to be the kind of ruler her father had been and not treat others the way she had been. Of course, one has to assert authority, and there were times where she had to have a firm hand in order to show that she could rule. But for the most part, all throughout her journey, she had been a liberator. It was only in the last season where she starts to take a turn. Beyond that, there's not enough evidence that she's been sliding into madness.
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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8

Post by McNutt » Mon Jun 03, 2019 2:17 pm

Exodor wrote:
Mon Jun 03, 2019 1:13 pm
This is how I feel about the books, too - the first three were great and the last two are mediocre at best.
Yes, there was a considerable dropoff in the fun factor after book three. Finishing the last two was work.

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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8

Post by Scuzz » Mon Jun 03, 2019 2:26 pm

McNutt wrote:
Mon Jun 03, 2019 2:17 pm
Exodor wrote:
Mon Jun 03, 2019 1:13 pm
This is how I feel about the books, too - the first three were great and the last two are mediocre at best.
Yes, there was a considerable dropoff in the fun factor after book three. Finishing the last two was work.
I would agree. The 4th and 5th books were no where near as entertaining and interesting as the first three. I know there are people who defend them but I really do think they show GRRM starting to have trouble wrapping the whole thing up.

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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8

Post by gameoverman » Mon Jun 03, 2019 4:10 pm

Rumpy wrote:
Mon Jun 03, 2019 1:49 pm
hepcat wrote:
Mon Jun 03, 2019 11:43 am
I still believe that what most folks considered acts of foreshadowing for Dany's break with reality were perfectly reasonable within the context of a young ruler trying to establish control of an empire. None of it struck me as indicative of a future act of madness driven genocide against innocent people. :wink:
Yep, that's what I feel too. She herself was harshly treated before she was able to break free and set her own path. For the most part, she had vowed not to be the kind of ruler her father had been and not treat others the way she had been. Of course, one has to assert authority, and there were times where she had to have a firm hand in order to show that she could rule. But for the most part, all throughout her journey, she had been a liberator. It was only in the last season where she starts to take a turn. Beyond that, there's not enough evidence that she's been sliding into madness.
I have rewatched some early Dany scenes and she did have a penchant for burning people to death from the start. She was showing signs of being cold blooded too, like when she watched her brother die. Taken in that light, her attempts to not be a ruler like her father seem more like her stating that she will keep that part of herself under control, not that she doesn't have that kind of craziness in her. Plus there are those times she told people that she had ultimate faith in herself, she told Jon Snow that when she met him. She didn't slide into madness, she was mad all along. She kept it in check, partly because she had strong people around to help her do that. Partly because she was able to do definitively positive things for the people, ie free them from slavery. So that earned her love and devotion. She was in a mental happy place so her inner demons are kept at bay.

Then she gets to Westeros with mostly a different entourage in charge than when she started her march. In Westeros there is nothing she can do for the people, only offer abstracts like "I'll be a better ruler". She can't do anything to immediately grab anyone's love, loyalty, or even friendship. The people who come to her only do so because they want something. The north won't even accept being part of her realm anymore. Helping to fight off the Night King cost her a lot but didn't gain the north's willingness to accept her as queen. The queen of thorns told her she needed to ignore the advice and be the dragon queen. In essence I think that's why she burnt the city. She saw she was getting nowhere with the nice guy approach and did it her way. The tragic irony is that if she did it her way from the start it's likely fewer people would have died. She might not have burned the city, just the keep. She would have had all her forces and three dragons. Cersei would have had no scorpions. It would have been a quicker, easier fight and she wouldn't have had the anger of suffering all those losses that sparked her fury.

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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8

Post by hepcat » Mon Jun 03, 2019 4:15 pm

I was responding to Lawboy's assertion that "I feel like we're at a point where most people are in agreement Dany's breaking bad was foreshadowed". Instead of recreating the last 87 pages of this thread rehashing all this yet again, I'll just say that as mentioned earlier, I've heard all these arguments before and I'm still not buying it. :wink:
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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8

Post by msteelers » Mon Jun 03, 2019 5:14 pm

Lightsabers make everything better.

https://youtu.be/odEK_aLglUU

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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8

Post by Toe » Mon Jun 03, 2019 5:39 pm

gameoverman wrote:
Mon Jun 03, 2019 4:10 pm
She didn't slide into madness, she was mad all along. She kept it in check, partly because she had strong people around to help her do that. Partly because she was able to do definitively positive things for the people, ie free them from slavery. So that earned her love and devotion. She was in a mental happy place so her inner demons are kept at bay.
I will still contend that Westeros's Targaryan madness is just straight up real world schizophrenia disorder. Everything points to that when looking at it from a real-world perspective as well as a westeros world perspective. So really its both, she always was "mad" because she has the disorder and also she "slide into madness" because schizophrenia symptoms usually do not start manifesting themselves until the person is in their mid/late 20's.

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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8

Post by Holman » Mon Jun 03, 2019 6:30 pm

Toe wrote:
Mon Jun 03, 2019 5:39 pm
gameoverman wrote:
Mon Jun 03, 2019 4:10 pm
She didn't slide into madness, she was mad all along. She kept it in check, partly because she had strong people around to help her do that. Partly because she was able to do definitively positive things for the people, ie free them from slavery. So that earned her love and devotion. She was in a mental happy place so her inner demons are kept at bay.
I will still contend that Westeros's Targaryan madness is just straight up real world schizophrenia disorder. Everything points to that when looking at it from a real-world perspective as well as a westeros world perspective. So really its both, she always was "mad" because she has the disorder and also she "slide into madness" because schizophrenia symptoms usually do not start manifesting themselves until the person is in their mid/late 20's.
You gotta read it through the GRRM lens. He's doing a fantasy/cartoon version of all the European/Near-Eastern historical themes and wringing fun/heavy changes on them (without regard for historical timelines).

Stark vs Lannister is the War of the Roses (York vs Lancaster).
Tyrion is Richard III.
Robert is Henry VIII.
Ned and Caitlin are Macbeths who unexpectedly resist temptation.
Cersei/Jaime are Guinevere/Lancelot.
The Children of the Forest are Celtic fairies.
The Wall is Hadrian's.
All the Houses are Euro cultural types: Tyrell is France, Martell is Spain, Baratheon is Germany, Ironborn are Vikings etc.
The free cities are the Italian states (Braavos is Venice, etc).
The eastern slaving city-states reach back into history as Babylon and Egypt.

And of course the Targaryens are an amalgam of Greece and Rome and Byzantium. Don't look at their patterns of madness clinically; look at it as the legacies of Caligula, Nero, and numerous Byzantine intrigues. It's story, not medicine.
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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8

Post by Rumpy » Mon Jun 03, 2019 7:28 pm

gameoverman wrote:
Mon Jun 03, 2019 4:10 pm
I have rewatched some early Dany scenes and she did have a penchant for burning people to death from the start. She was showing signs of being cold blooded too, like when she watched her brother die. Taken in that light, her attempts to not be a ruler like her father seem more like her stating that she will keep that part of herself under control, not that she doesn't have that kind of craziness in her. Plus there are those times she told people that she had ultimate faith in herself, she told Jon Snow that when she met him. She didn't slide into madness, she was mad all along. She kept it in check, partly because she had strong people around to help her do that. Partly because she was able to do definitively positive things for the people, ie free them from slavery. So that earned her love and devotion. She was in a mental happy place so her inner demons are kept at bay.
OK, see, I think the key here is that many of us don't believe she was ever mad all along, and the explanations don't work for us. And that's what makes the development such a 180. If it truly is the case, then the show didn't properly lay down that development. I think you can start to see why some of us simply don't buy it as it wasn't made very believable. Fact is, like Hepcat says, we can keep going over this over and over, but it doesn't change things. We just see things differently. And as has been stated many times, it's not the fact that she was mad that we take issue with, but the manner in which it was done. That's my piece.
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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8

Post by Zaxxon » Tue Jun 04, 2019 10:54 am


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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8

Post by hepcat » Tue Jun 04, 2019 12:16 pm

I can create a supercut of Hot Pie getting "triggered" if you give me enough time and access to all the shows.
I beat a camel to death with a monkey. Can I do that?
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You have to whack a few rabbits before you are ready to punch a camel.
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El Guapo
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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8

Post by El Guapo » Tue Jun 04, 2019 1:23 pm

hepcat wrote:
Tue Jun 04, 2019 12:16 pm
I can create a supercut of Hot Pie getting "triggered" if you give me enough time and access to all the shows.
C'mon...we all know that you have already done this. Just upload it.

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hepcat
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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8

Post by hepcat » Tue Jun 04, 2019 1:31 pm

I need to remove the photoshopped images of myself dressed as Professor X from the background of every scene first. Without context it just looks weird otherwise.
I beat a camel to death with a monkey. Can I do that?
-Mr Bismarck

You have to whack a few rabbits before you are ready to punch a camel.
-Coopasonic

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Jaymann
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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8

Post by Jaymann » Tue Jun 04, 2019 4:18 pm

But I don't they fully developed Dany's descent into madness.
Jaymann
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Zaxxon
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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8

Post by Zaxxon » Tue Jun 04, 2019 4:20 pm

Jaymann wrote:
Tue Jun 04, 2019 4:18 pm
But I don't they fully developed Dany's descent into madness.
Clearly they did. The season was fantastic start to finish.

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