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Game of Thrones Season 8

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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8

Post by ImLawBoy » Tue May 14, 2019 11:59 am

Holman wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 11:43 am
ImLawBoy wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 11:18 am
You seem to think she hadn't already gone mad prior to her rampage or that the apparent military victory would have pulled her back from the brink. Regardless, I can't see how you can call the political tensions completely in hand. You're completely minimizing the devastating effect Varys's treason had on her by thinking that she'd be fine once he was dead. You're overlooking that she felt that Tyrion had been borderline treasonous by not telling her about things right away, so he was untrustworthy and a potential threat. You choose to ignore that she doesn't trust Jon anymore since he's already starting blabbing his secrets, knowing that they would likely get out. His willingness to serve is in doubt - in her mind, anyway. And you don't even seem to consider the impact of losing Missandei and Jorah and Dragon 2.
A suspicious and paranoid Dany turning on Jon Snow and Tyrion would have made some sense. A suspicious and paranoid Dany going full-on genocidal Mad King seems unsupported by any of the character-building we've had for seven seasons. It's not even supported by the rushed descent into paranoia they've given us this season.
But it is supported by the rushed descent of this season. She's talked about how she needs to rule by fear and that the people of King's Landings are essentially enemies for failing to support her against Cersei.
Holman wrote:Putting a long- and fully-developed central character through a complete 180 has to be narratively earned, at the very least because circumstances force her into it. My whole point (in the posts you dislike) is that circumstances have done no such thing. This isn't Dany but just a quickie Diaboli ex Machina, and it's a failure of storytelling.
It's defensible and reasonable to not think they've fully earned the heel turn. The crux of our disagreement is the extent to which they've earned it. I give them partial credit and am willing to make the jump the rest of the way because I see what they were trying to do and how they would have gotten there if they hadn't shortened the last two seasons. I'm cool with others not being willing to make that jump. I think, though, that you're underplaying the steps they've taken to establish this. I don't think it's fair to say that there is no set up for this, which is how I'm reading much of your posting on the topic. Maybe that's not what you're saying. I kind of look like similar to the express travel that they've done the last two seasons. They took shortcuts that hurt things narratively, but we know where they were going to travel or how she was going descend into madness. I'm filling in the blanks in my mind.
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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8

Post by noxiousdog » Tue May 14, 2019 12:08 pm

ImLawBoy wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 11:59 am
But it is supported by the rushed descent of this season. She's talked about how she needs to rule by fear and that the people of King's Landings are essentially enemies for failing to support her against Cersei.
Except they didn't. It was pointed out many times that the people were hostages and they rose up and demanded Cersei surrender.
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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8

Post by Holman » Tue May 14, 2019 12:11 pm

ImLawBoy wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 11:59 am
It's defensible and reasonable to not think they've fully earned the heel turn. The crux of our disagreement is the extent to which they've earned it. I give them partial credit and am willing to make the jump the rest of the way because I see what they were trying to do and how they would have gotten there if they hadn't shortened the last two seasons. I'm cool with others not being willing to make that jump. I think, though, that you're underplaying the steps they've taken to establish this. I don't think it's fair to say that there is no set up for this, which is how I'm reading much of your posting on the topic. Maybe that's not what you're saying. I kind of look like similar to the express travel that they've done the last two seasons. They took shortcuts that hurt things narratively, but we know where they were going to travel or how she was going descend into madness.
"Shortcuts" is a good way to see it. I am just out of patience with it.
I'm filling in the blanks in my mind.
If GRRM isn't going to do it, I suppose we're left with that.
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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8

Post by McNutt » Tue May 14, 2019 12:13 pm

So what is going to happen with Bronn?

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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8

Post by Isgrimnur » Tue May 14, 2019 12:32 pm

McNutt wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 12:13 pm
So what is going to happen with Bronn?
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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8

Post by ImLawBoy » Tue May 14, 2019 12:38 pm

noxiousdog wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 12:08 pm
ImLawBoy wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 11:59 am
But it is supported by the rushed descent of this season. She's talked about how she needs to rule by fear and that the people of King's Landings are essentially enemies for failing to support her against Cersei.
Except they didn't. It was pointed out many times that the people were hostages and they rose up and demanded Cersei surrender.
Except that's not the way Dany saw it. She wasn't listening to reason at that point.
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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8

Post by noxiousdog » Tue May 14, 2019 12:42 pm

ImLawBoy wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 12:38 pm
noxiousdog wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 12:08 pm
ImLawBoy wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 11:59 am
But it is supported by the rushed descent of this season. She's talked about how she needs to rule by fear and that the people of King's Landings are essentially enemies for failing to support her against Cersei.
Except they didn't. It was pointed out many times that the people were hostages and they rose up and demanded Cersei surrender.
Except that's not the way Dany saw it. She wasn't listening to reason at that point.
Is that why she sat waiting and watching?
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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8

Post by Zaxxon » Tue May 14, 2019 12:43 pm

I still don't buy it. Some of you are saying they earned it, because you think they earned it. That's fine. I'm not seeing anything convincing via the show's development of Dany before the middle of this season, tho.

As someone else mentioned, not-so-subtlely editing the audio of the previously-on scenes didn't help sell it to me.

I am fine being the outlier, tho!

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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8

Post by McNutt » Tue May 14, 2019 12:46 pm

You're not the outlier. The majority seem to think they didn't sell it. Those of us who buy it are just louder than the rest.

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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8

Post by ImLawBoy » Tue May 14, 2019 12:47 pm

noxiousdog wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 12:42 pm
ImLawBoy wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 12:38 pm
noxiousdog wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 12:08 pm
ImLawBoy wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 11:59 am
But it is supported by the rushed descent of this season. She's talked about how she needs to rule by fear and that the people of King's Landings are essentially enemies for failing to support her against Cersei.
Except they didn't. It was pointed out many times that the people were hostages and they rose up and demanded Cersei surrender.
Except that's not the way Dany saw it. She wasn't listening to reason at that point.
Is that why she sat waiting and watching?
Are you talking about the bell ringing before she went to torch the city? Because that doesn't necessarily mean the people have embraced her and overthrown Cersei. It means that the city surrendered. That's a big difference. They're still her enemies.
Zaxxon wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 12:43 pm
I still don't buy it. Some of you are saying they earned it, because you think they earned it. That's fine. I'm not seeing anything convincing via the show's development of Dany before the middle of this season, tho.

As someone else mentioned, not-so-subtlely editing the audio of the previously-on scenes didn't help sell it to me.

I am fine being the outlier, tho!
Oh, I think you're clearly in the majority on this. Those of us defending the show at this part are the minority outliers. I just happen to be loud about it.
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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8

Post by Isgrimnur » Tue May 14, 2019 12:53 pm

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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8

Post by noxiousdog » Tue May 14, 2019 1:00 pm

ImLawBoy wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 12:47 pm
Are you talking about the bell ringing before she went to torch the city? Because that doesn't necessarily mean the people have embraced her and overthrown Cersei. It means that the city surrendered. That's a big difference. They're still her enemies.
They were her enemies because they didn't overthrow Cersei. They even had a conversation about it.

FWIW, she sat on the wall for over three minutes of show time. If she "went mad", she would have gone straight to burning after destroying the scorpions.
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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8

Post by hepcat » Tue May 14, 2019 1:07 pm

SOMS can take up to 4 minutes to manifest in a fully grown adult written by a Hollywood screenwriter.
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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8

Post by gameoverman » Tue May 14, 2019 1:09 pm

I don't know what else anyone needs to see to 'earn' Dany's choice of actions. She had one lifelong goal, to reclaim her family's rightful place on the throne. That is the one thing that meant everything to her. She somehow manages to overcome so much and really does put together an army and makes it home. Then it all falls apart the closer she gets to the throne. She's hit with one set back after another and one major loss after another. On top of it all, no one around her can come up with a plan to help her defeat Cersei without Dany having to attack the city with her last dragon. So she does it and all that pent up anger and frustration come out. Everything she's been repressing in her mostly successful attempt to be a good ruler comes out. When all you have is a dragon everything looks like kindling.

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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8

Post by ImLawBoy » Tue May 14, 2019 1:12 pm

noxiousdog wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 1:00 pm
ImLawBoy wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 12:47 pm
Are you talking about the bell ringing before she went to torch the city? Because that doesn't necessarily mean the people have embraced her and overthrown Cersei. It means that the city surrendered. That's a big difference. They're still her enemies.
They were her enemies because they didn't overthrow Cersei. They even had a conversation about it.
Right. That was my point. What are you disagreeing with me about?
noxiousdog wrote:FWIW, she sat on the wall for over three minutes of show time. If she "went mad", she would have gone straight to burning after destroying the scorpions.
I didn't know you were board certified in how dragon riding queens express their madness. I find the argument unpersuasive, but you're welcome to it.
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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8

Post by Hyena » Tue May 14, 2019 1:12 pm

msteelers wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 11:31 am
Ralph-Wiggum wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 11:22 am
msteelers wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 9:56 am
Zaxxon wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 1:31 am
If the goal was to have her decide that the cost is worthwhile, then once the walls are breached and she knows she's basically invulnerable (which she knows, given the way she slowly worked through the city) she could have proceeded as cleanly as possible to the Keep and nuked that. The idea that she just snapped and chose to napalm innocents/perceived subjects so much is simply not backed by her prior character development.
I think a rewatch of the series, knowing what we know now, is going to be very illuminating. Hell, even in the last two episodes she showed total disdain for the people of Kings Landing. They weren't innocent to her. They weren't hostages. They were implicit in Cersei's rule. They could have revolted at any time to punish the people that punished her and her family. They allowed all of the bad things that happened to Dany to happen.
As pointed out in a GoT recap I listen to, if the writers felt they had done a good enough job setting up Dany's sudden descent into madness, they wouldn't have felt the need to overlay a bunch of sound bites from previous episodes/seasons on to the "previously on" segment of the show. As far as they (or I) can remember, this is the first time the "previously on" wasn't just clips of past episodes.
As far as I know all of those sound bytes were from previous episodes, and it's not unusual for shows to throw in something on the "previously on" segment from several seasons prior if it will help viewers understand something in the upcoming episode.

I thought the previously on was very well done and set the tone for where Dany and her advisors were when the episode started.
And the fact that they were all overlapping each other while we see her face go from upset to anger to rage to blind fury, almost sounding like voices in the head of a...um...crazy person.
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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8

Post by Zaxxon » Tue May 14, 2019 1:13 pm

I hold that certification and agree with ND, so I'm glad we can put this behind us. ;)

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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8

Post by Combustible Lemur » Tue May 14, 2019 1:14 pm

gameoverman wrote:I don't know what else anyone needs to see to 'earn' Dany's choice of actions. She had one lifelong goal, to reclaim her family's rightful place on the throne. That is the one thing that meant everything to her. She somehow manages to overcome so much and really does put together an army and makes it home. Then it all falls apart the closer she gets to the throne. She's hit with one set back after another and one major loss after another. On top of it all, no one around her can come up with a plan to help her defeat Cersei without Dany having to attack the city with her last dragon. So she does it and all that pent up anger and frustration come out. Everything she's been repressing in her mostly successful attempt to be a good ruler comes out. When all you have is a dragon everything looks like kindling.
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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8

Post by hepcat » Tue May 14, 2019 1:16 pm

gameoverman wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 1:09 pm
I don't know what else anyone needs to see to 'earn' Dany's choice of actions. She had one lifelong goal, to reclaim her family's rightful place on the throne. That is the one thing that meant everything to her. She somehow manages to overcome so much and really does put together an army and makes it home. Then it all falls apart the closer she gets to the throne. She's hit with one set back after another and one major loss after another.
She took Kings Landing in 12 minutes and a total casualty cost of 1 foot soldier who accidentally fell down a flight of stairs. I don't see a bunch of great losses. Sure, she lost out on some sweet, sweet nephew lovin', but she made it to her 8 season goal in one episode.

edit: another thing that bugs me is the complete lack of any real political maneuvering during this final season. They're just throwing people against other people and things and letting it all become a matter of force. We spent almost a decade watching a political dance between all these people...and in the final stretch, it all just comes down to fights. Nuance be damned. Let's give 'em a blockbuster.
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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8

Post by Ralph-Wiggum » Tue May 14, 2019 1:21 pm

msteelers wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 11:31 am
Ralph-Wiggum wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 11:22 am
msteelers wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 9:56 am
Zaxxon wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 1:31 am
If the goal was to have her decide that the cost is worthwhile, then once the walls are breached and she knows she's basically invulnerable (which she knows, given the way she slowly worked through the city) she could have proceeded as cleanly as possible to the Keep and nuked that. The idea that she just snapped and chose to napalm innocents/perceived subjects so much is simply not backed by her prior character development.
I think a rewatch of the series, knowing what we know now, is going to be very illuminating. Hell, even in the last two episodes she showed total disdain for the people of Kings Landing. They weren't innocent to her. They weren't hostages. They were implicit in Cersei's rule. They could have revolted at any time to punish the people that punished her and her family. They allowed all of the bad things that happened to Dany to happen.
As pointed out in a GoT recap I listen to, if the writers felt they had done a good enough job setting up Dany's sudden descent into madness, they wouldn't have felt the need to overlay a bunch of sound bites from previous episodes/seasons on to the "previously on" segment of the show. As far as they (or I) can remember, this is the first time the "previously on" wasn't just clips of past episodes.
As far as I know all of those sound bytes were from previous episodes, and it's not unusual for shows to throw in something on the "previously on" segment from several seasons prior if it will help viewers understand something in the upcoming episode.
They were, but I don't think the show has before overlaid sound bytes (bites?) from multiple episodes over a scene from a different episode before. They clearly decided that was necessary to set up the Dany-is-going-crazy story. And if overlaying those sound bytes was necessary, that means they haven't done a good enough job leading the audience to reach that conclusion on our own this season.

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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8

Post by Zaxxon » Tue May 14, 2019 1:23 pm

Ralph-Wiggum wrote:
msteelers wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 11:31 am
Ralph-Wiggum wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 11:22 am
msteelers wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 9:56 am
Zaxxon wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 1:31 am
If the goal was to have her decide that the cost is worthwhile, then once the walls are breached and she knows she's basically invulnerable (which she knows, given the way she slowly worked through the city) she could have proceeded as cleanly as possible to the Keep and nuked that. The idea that she just snapped and chose to napalm innocents/perceived subjects so much is simply not backed by her prior character development.
I think a rewatch of the series, knowing what we know now, is going to be very illuminating. Hell, even in the last two episodes she showed total disdain for the people of Kings Landing. They weren't innocent to her. They weren't hostages. They were implicit in Cersei's rule. They could have revolted at any time to punish the people that punished her and her family. They allowed all of the bad things that happened to Dany to happen.
As pointed out in a GoT recap I listen to, if the writers felt they had done a good enough job setting up Dany's sudden descent into madness, they wouldn't have felt the need to overlay a bunch of sound bites from previous episodes/seasons on to the "previously on" segment of the show. As far as they (or I) can remember, this is the first time the "previously on" wasn't just clips of past episodes.
As far as I know all of those sound bytes were from previous episodes, and it's not unusual for shows to throw in something on the "previously on" segment from several seasons prior if it will help viewers understand something in the upcoming episode.
They were, but I don't think the show has before overlaid sound bytes (bites?) from multiple episodes over a scene from a different episode before. They clearly decided that was necessary to set up the Dany-is-going-crazy story. And if overlaying those sound bytes was necessary, that means they haven't done a good enough job leading the audience to reach that conclusion on our own this season.
This puts it much better than I did. Agree completely.

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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8

Post by msteelers » Tue May 14, 2019 1:29 pm

Ralph-Wiggum wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 1:21 pm
They were, but I don't think the show has before overlaid sound bytes (bites?) from multiple episodes over a scene from a different episode before. They clearly decided that was necessary to set up the Dany-is-going-crazy story. And if overlaying those sound bytes was necessary, that means they haven't done a good enough job leading the audience to reach that conclusion on our own this season.
To each their own I guess. I thought it was clever.

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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8

Post by Rumpy » Tue May 14, 2019 1:38 pm

Ralph-Wiggum wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 12:16 am
The thing that’s perhaps most bothersome to me is that many of the scenes could make so much more sense with just slight, seemingly obvious,changes. For instance, say the bells ring for peace and then Cersei (out of spite, vindictiveness, or any of the similar traits we’ve seen her show) kills Missandei. I could then see that triggering Dany to torch the city.
Yeah, it's not so much that it came out of nowhere, but I think it's more due to the sequence of events themselves. It almost feels as though parts of the episode were written at a different time than the rest and don't completely align. The motivation for her snapping wasn't very well communicated. If like you say, we'd seen Cercei make the first move after the bell, there'd be more justification.
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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8

Post by McNutt » Tue May 14, 2019 1:52 pm

hepcat wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 1:16 pm
another thing that bugs me is the complete lack of any real political maneuvering during this final season. They're just throwing people against other people and things and letting it all become a matter of force. We spent almost a decade watching a political dance between all these people...and in the final stretch, it all just comes down to fights. Nuance be damned. Let's give 'em a blockbuster.
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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8

Post by Blackhawk » Tue May 14, 2019 1:56 pm

They absolutely did not do a good enough job of setting it up, but in retrospect, they did set it up. She didn't go crazy in three minutes. She has been a little crazy all along. She had violent impulses all along that have been warring with her conscience and mind, held in check by the people she trusted. We took that to mean that she had a good heart, but I'm seeing it differently now. We've seen over and over that she's willing to kill anybody who crosses her, and do so in horrible ways, and that her mercy is for those she identifies as innocents. This season has been all about the straws being piled on the camel's back, one by one, in rapid succession. At the beginning of the episode we see her sitting alone, stewing in her own paranoia for days. When Tyrion comes to her, she expects that it was Jon who betrayed her, then threatens Tyrion, then confronts Jon as a betrayer anyway, then he refuses to serve her (in her eyes), and on, and on, and on.

She's made it clear over the last couple of episodes that the thing she really wanted to do was burn the biggest betrayer (King's Landing) to the ground. She went in there fully expecting that she'd do just that. Then, suddenly, she couldn't. They surrendered. They took away what she wanted. And she snapped. Not in three minutes, in about 20 seconds, but that 20 seconds was the breaking point of the madness that had been building, not the whole break.

She's been nucking futs all along. We just didn't think of it that way at the time.
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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8

Post by hepcat » Tue May 14, 2019 2:03 pm

I think some of us who didn't think that at the time felt there was no reason to due to the way she was written. Her violent actions have always been directed at those who crossed her directly, and they were in line with the actions of your standard medieval monarch who sees force as one viable way to ensure loyalty. But she was certainly not Cersei level...and we're not discussing her in terms of insanity.

I agree that the need to announce she might go mad in the "last week on GoT" intro is a good indication that they knew they screwed up and needed to rush this.
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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8

Post by Isgrimnur » Tue May 14, 2019 2:04 pm

I skip the "Last Time on..." nonsense for every show that I can. I don't need Chekov's recap to spoil the surprise returning character, major theme, etc. of the episode.

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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8

Post by hepcat » Tue May 14, 2019 2:09 pm

In this case though, you needed it to explain an almost 180 degree character reversal.
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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8

Post by rittchard » Tue May 14, 2019 2:26 pm

hepcat wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 2:09 pm
In this case though, you needed it to explain an almost 180 degree character reversal.
Totally agree with hep, also with Zaxx's longer post somewhere above.

I keep reading about how this was foreshadowed, etc. - that's all well and good but it just wasn't "earned" as others have said. Even the producers knew it so they felt they had to explain it in the after show. If you didn't see that, he actually says seeing the Red Keep standing there makes something snap in her and blah blah blah. Since we are watching a show and not reading a book, that was simply not conveyed properly. If that was the intent, maybe they should have had Harrison Ford narrate it to us because I didn't see it.

And even if that was the straw that broke the camel's back, she could just as easily skipped the full razing of the city and destroyed the Red Keep with plenty of innocent casualties for the same net effect. But having her turn completely psycho just didn't work for me. Did you notice they never showed her reactions as she was burning the civilians. Was she smiling like a psychopath and foaming at the mouth? Who knows? They were too lazy or scared to show it. Or maybe the actress refused because it was so inane. This was essentially (and a bit ironically) a copycat Dark Phoenix plot, but even Dark Phoenix had better reasons to wipe out civilians (she was hungry!). Pretty much every Dark XXXX plotline that's been done has had better build up and none as far as I remember has ever gone so completely overboard.

- - -

And on a separate note, I've decided to choose my own ending for Jamie and Cersei. Since we didn't see the bodies, I'm going to assume they fell through the ground into the hidden river channel below and got swept right to the escape boat and are now living happily ever after.

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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8

Post by noxiousdog » Tue May 14, 2019 2:38 pm

ImLawBoy wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 1:12 pm
noxiousdog wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 1:00 pm
ImLawBoy wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 12:47 pm
Are you talking about the bell ringing before she went to torch the city? Because that doesn't necessarily mean the people have embraced her and overthrown Cersei. It means that the city surrendered. That's a big difference. They're still her enemies.
They were her enemies because they didn't overthrow Cersei. They even had a conversation about it.
Right. That was my point. What are you disagreeing with me about?
Because once they surrendered they were no longer enemies. If she burns them prior to surrender? Fine. If she had gone straight from the scorpions to the people? Fine. If she had burned Cercei and the Red Keep? Fine.

But to burn the fleet, then rest and hang out. Watch the people DO WHAT YOU WANT THEM TO DO, and then burn them? bah. People don't snap after getting what they want.

I was discussing this at lunch... if this is the route you're taking, don't kill the 2nd dragon last week. Have it this week as she's attacking the fleet. Then have her snap when her child dies.
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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8

Post by Toe » Tue May 14, 2019 2:41 pm

Hyena wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 1:12 pm
msteelers wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 11:31 am
Ralph-Wiggum wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 11:22 am
msteelers wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 9:56 am
Zaxxon wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 1:31 am
If the goal was to have her decide that the cost is worthwhile, then once the walls are breached and she knows she's basically invulnerable (which she knows, given the way she slowly worked through the city) she could have proceeded as cleanly as possible to the Keep and nuked that. The idea that she just snapped and chose to napalm innocents/perceived subjects so much is simply not backed by her prior character development.
I think a rewatch of the series, knowing what we know now, is going to be very illuminating. Hell, even in the last two episodes she showed total disdain for the people of Kings Landing. They weren't innocent to her. They weren't hostages. They were implicit in Cersei's rule. They could have revolted at any time to punish the people that punished her and her family. They allowed all of the bad things that happened to Dany to happen.
As pointed out in a GoT recap I listen to, if the writers felt they had done a good enough job setting up Dany's sudden descent into madness, they wouldn't have felt the need to overlay a bunch of sound bites from previous episodes/seasons on to the "previously on" segment of the show. As far as they (or I) can remember, this is the first time the "previously on" wasn't just clips of past episodes.
As far as I know all of those sound bytes were from previous episodes, and it's not unusual for shows to throw in something on the "previously on" segment from several seasons prior if it will help viewers understand something in the upcoming episode.

I thought the previously on was very well done and set the tone for where Dany and her advisors were when the episode started.
And the fact that they were all overlapping each other while we see her face go from upset to anger to rage to blind fury, almost sounding like voices in the head of a...um...crazy person.
Schizophrenic people usually don't go the upset-angry-rage-blind fury rout though (that is actually what more "normal" people would do to be honest). How you would have felt if Dany instead just started grinning, all crazy-eyed, then began torching the "innocent" while cackling? You probalbly might have thought "Wow, she went from 0 to crazy real fast eh?"

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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8

Post by McNutt » Tue May 14, 2019 2:42 pm

noxiousdog wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 2:38 pm

But to burn the fleet, then rest and hang out. Watch the people DO WHAT YOU WANT THEM TO DO, and then burn them? bah. People don't snap after getting what they want.
She's not getting what she wants. She wants complete rule and she doesn't know if she's going to get it with a clean victory. For all she knows Jon is going to gain support for the crown. Yes, I know he said he doesn't want it, but he is now a threat to her rule. The one thing she can do is make everyone fear the consequences of her not getting that crown.

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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8

Post by noxiousdog » Tue May 14, 2019 2:46 pm

McNutt wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 2:42 pm
noxiousdog wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 2:38 pm

But to burn the fleet, then rest and hang out. Watch the people DO WHAT YOU WANT THEM TO DO, and then burn them? bah. People don't snap after getting what they want.
She's not getting what she wants. She wants complete rule and she doesn't know if she's going to get it with a clean victory. For all she knows Jon is going to gain support for the crown. Yes, I know he said he doesn't want it, but he is now a threat to her rule. The one thing she can do is make everyone fear the consequences of her not getting that crown.
Can't have it both ways. Either she's cold and calculating (completely out of character) or she's in a mad rage. The latter is what they want us to believe, but I don't find it consistent with her actions.
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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8

Post by McNutt » Tue May 14, 2019 2:53 pm

It's possible that her madness is letting her believe that it's okay to kill all these people for her dream. The line between mad and evil is getting blurred here.

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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8

Post by hepcat » Tue May 14, 2019 2:59 pm

You're thinking of cartoon evil.
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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8

Post by gameoverman » Tue May 14, 2019 3:04 pm

hepcat wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 1:16 pm
gameoverman wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 1:09 pm
I don't know what else anyone needs to see to 'earn' Dany's choice of actions. She had one lifelong goal, to reclaim her family's rightful place on the throne. That is the one thing that meant everything to her. She somehow manages to overcome so much and really does put together an army and makes it home. Then it all falls apart the closer she gets to the throne. She's hit with one set back after another and one major loss after another.
She took Kings Landing in 12 minutes and a total casualty cost of 1 foot soldier who accidentally fell down a flight of stairs. I don't see a bunch of great losses. Sure, she lost out on some sweet, sweet nephew lovin', but she made it to her 8 season goal in one episode.

edit: another thing that bugs me is the complete lack of any real political maneuvering during this final season. They're just throwing people against other people and things and letting it all become a matter of force. We spent almost a decade watching a political dance between all these people...and in the final stretch, it all just comes down to fights. Nuance be damned. Let's give 'em a blockbuster.
I think it's important to remember that her army is made up of Dothraki and Unsullied. These are not diplomats or peace seeking types. The Dothraki will rape and pillage after their victory if they win in battle. The Unsullied are trained to kill, a pure fighting force. Dany was never going to be the political maneuvering type of leader. That's why with her it was always "bend the knee or else". With her you get one chance to do it her way or you face her wrath. Look at what happened with the Tarlys, that's her in a nutshell and that was always her. It's just that in those other lands her opposition was usually so unsympathetic(slave owners) that she seemed much nicer in comparison. In Westeros there were no people for her to free, just people to rule. Even the people she did help, in the north, wanted no part of her. Cersei, haha. There was no chance any negotiation was going to work with her.

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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8

Post by noxiousdog » Tue May 14, 2019 3:09 pm

Again, she's always done it with cause. She should have burned the Tarleys just like Rob had to do executions and Jon had to execute the Night's Watch traitors

However, we've been told for seven seasons she helps the downtrodden.
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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8

Post by hepcat » Tue May 14, 2019 3:10 pm

gameoverman wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 3:04 pm

I think it's important to remember that her army is made up of Dothraki and Unsullied. These are not diplomats or peace seeking types. The Dothraki will rape and pillage after their victory if they win in battle. The Unsullied are trained to kill, a pure fighting force. Dany was never going to be the political maneuvering type of leader.\
It's equally important to remember that Dany isn't the only character on the show.
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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8

Post by Combustible Lemur » Tue May 14, 2019 3:19 pm


noxiousdog wrote:
ImLawBoy wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 1:12 pm
noxiousdog wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 1:00 pm
ImLawBoy wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 12:47 pm
Are you talking about the bell ringing before she went to torch the city? Because that doesn't necessarily mean the people have embraced her and overthrown Cersei. It means that the city surrendered. That's a big difference. They're still her enemies.
They were her enemies because they didn't overthrow Cersei. They even had a conversation about it.
Right. That was my point. What are you disagreeing with me about?
.

But to burn the fleet, then rest and hang out. Watch the people DO WHAT YOU WANT THEM TO DO, and then burn them? bah. People don't snap after getting what they want.

I was discussing this at lunch... if this is the route you're taking, don't kill the 2nd dragon last week. Have it this week as she's attacking the fleet. Then have her snap when her child dies.
She didn't want them to surrender, she's been chomping at the bit for blood and fire all season. Tyrion constantly had to beg for a chance at surrender.

Second, don't be silly. The Hollow confused feeling after acquiring what you though you wanted and realizing life is much more unforgiving and complicated is a super common way for people to lose their grip. Ask child stars, celebrities, war heroes, business owners, parents etc.

Third, sure that would have been helpful and made the stupid ambush last week and the nerfing of the dragon this week less egregious.


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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8

Post by hepcat » Tue May 14, 2019 3:21 pm

Combustible Lemur wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 3:19 pm

She didn't want them to surrender, she's been chomping at the bit for blood and fire all season.
Right. 4 episodes. 1 of which was an 80 minute battle scene with the undead. Another 2 was just planning that battle.
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