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Game of Thrones Season 8

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Toe
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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8

Post by Toe » Tue May 14, 2019 3:25 pm

Combustible Lemur wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 3:19 pm
She didn't want them to surrender, she's been chomping at the bit for blood and fire all season. Tyrion constantly had to beg for a chance at surrender.
Except she explicated says to her council how she wanted to try Tyrion's idea (even though she knew it would fail), because she wanted the people to know she tried to be reasonable, not wanting to rule by fear, etc, etc. That not something someone says that is "chomping at the bit" imo.

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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8

Post by noxiousdog » Tue May 14, 2019 3:32 pm

Toe wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 3:25 pm
Combustible Lemur wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 3:19 pm
She didn't want them to surrender, she's been chomping at the bit for blood and fire all season. Tyrion constantly had to beg for a chance at surrender.
Except she explicated says to her council how she wanted to try Tyrion's idea (even though she knew it would fail), because she wanted the people to know she tried to be reasonable, not wanting to rule by fear, etc, etc. That not something someone says that is "chomping at the bit" imo.
No kidding. If she wanted to kill them all, she didn't have to ask Tyrion's permission.
Second, don't be silly. The Hollow confused feeling after acquiring what you though you wanted and realizing life is much more unforgiving and complicated is a super common way for people to lose their grip. Ask child stars, celebrities, war heroes, business owners, parents etc.
That's called depression. Not a psychopathic rage.
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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8

Post by Blackhawk » Tue May 14, 2019 3:34 pm

rittchard wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 2:26 pm
Since we are watching a show and not reading a book, that was simply not conveyed properly.

That much I absolutely agree with. I felt it was in keeping with her character, and was a good 30 degree turn at most, but the foreshadowing and final buildup just wasn't well done. I had to stop afterward and search for bits and pieces to make sense of it at all. But when I'd done so, I felt like the bits and pieces really were there, and they were there all along. They were just ignored as throwaway, though.
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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8

Post by Combustible Lemur » Tue May 14, 2019 3:43 pm


Toe wrote:
Combustible Lemur wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 3:19 pm
She didn't want them to surrender, she's been chomping at the bit for blood and fire all season. Tyrion constantly had to beg for a chance at surrender.
Except she explicated says to her council how she wanted to try Tyrion's idea (even though she knew it would fail), because she wanted the people to know she tried to be reasonable, not wanting to rule by fear, etc, etc. That not something someone says that is "chomping at the bit" imo.
Despite her increasing rage madness, she has always been an astute figurehead. She more Sparrow than Cersie. Much of her appeal up to this point has been her zeal.

She can both want to raze kings landing and see the drawbacks of doing so. Up to the point that kingslanding aquieces with minimal sacrifice, laying bare everything she has sacrificed. Only to be faced with an unadoring westeros that is likely to turn on her the way all of her westerosi advisors have, how her targearyan lover has, and the way Sansa and the north have already threatened.

So... Burn them all, then see if they believe in my divine right. Fear and Awe is still worshipful.

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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8

Post by hepcat » Tue May 14, 2019 3:44 pm

Then they shouldn't have tried to push the madness narrative.
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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8

Post by Drazzil » Tue May 14, 2019 3:49 pm

One interesting thing I read somwhere was that Varys tried to poison Dany at the beginning of the episode. Thus the little girl said "The queens not eating now"...

Man. I'm glad next sunday is the last ep. The showrunners don't seem to have the ability to effectively and satisfactorily wrap up.
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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8

Post by Combustible Lemur » Tue May 14, 2019 3:49 pm

noxiousdog wrote:
Toe wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 3:25 pm
Combustible Lemur wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 3:19 pm
She didn't want them to surrender, she's been chomping at the bit for blood and fire all season. Tyrion constantly had to beg for a chance at surrender.
Except she explicated says to her council how she wanted to try Tyrion's idea (even though she knew it would fail), because she wanted the people to know she tried to be reasonable, not wanting to rule by fear, etc, etc. That not something someone says that is "chomping at the bit" imo.
No kidding. If she wanted to kill them all, she didn't have to ask Tyrion's permission.
Second, don't be silly. The Hollow confused feeling after acquiring what you though you wanted and realizing life is much more unforgiving and complicated is a super common way for people to lose their grip. Ask child stars, celebrities, war heroes, business owners, parents etc.
That's called depression. Not a psychopathic rage.
People choose not to do things they want all the time. Also it was one more step on her journey to threatening Tyrion with execution.

And no one has committed violence in conjunction with the myriad of problems associated with depression? Danger to self and others?

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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8

Post by Blackhawk » Tue May 14, 2019 3:51 pm

While I'm a proponent of the 'crazy was in character' angle, I still don't entirely buy the semi-rational 'make them fear me so they'll follow me' motivation. I still feel like it was vindictive hatred, deep inside, toward Cersei and, as an extension, King's Landing. Every major setback since she crossed the sea, and every loss, could be argued to have happened because of them. She didn't want to see a surrender. She wanted to see them burn, and for once, there was nobody left to cool her down and point out that it was, just maybe, not the way to go.
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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8

Post by Combustible Lemur » Tue May 14, 2019 3:51 pm

For a group of people arguing for more nuance in your show, you all a sure taking a pretty absolutist view of the characters and story.

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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8

Post by hepcat » Tue May 14, 2019 3:52 pm

Combustible Lemur wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 3:49 pm

And no one has committed violence in conjunction with the myriad of problems associated with depression? Danger to self and others?

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Slapping someone, sure. Genocide? Not usually.
Combustible Lemur wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 3:51 pm
For a group of people arguing for more nuance in your show, you all a sure taking a pretty absolutist view of the characters and story.

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You're right, we should accept lazy writing without question or criticism.
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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8

Post by Combustible Lemur » Tue May 14, 2019 3:56 pm

Blackhawk wrote:While I'm a proponent of the 'crazy was in character' angle, I still don't entirely buy the semi-rational 'make them fear me so they'll follow me' motivation. I still feel like it was vindictive hatred, deep inside, toward Cersei and, as an extension, King's Landing. Every major setback since she crossed the sea, and every loss, could be argued to have happened because of them. She didn't want to see a surrender. She wanted to see them burn, and for once, there was nobody left to cool her down and point out that it was, just maybe, not the way to go.
It's all those things.
Dany has mastered the shock and awe since early in the show. Dothraki, dragons, execution by dragon, execution by fire while in the fire in order to announce your annexation of the horde, crucifixion, disdain for diplomacy.
There's not a lot of distance between awe and fear. Look at real world religion. God fearing Christians find the infinitely benevolent God awesome.

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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8

Post by Combustible Lemur » Tue May 14, 2019 3:59 pm

hepcat wrote:
Combustible Lemur wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 3:49 pm

And no one has committed violence in conjunction with the myriad of problems associated with depression? Danger to self and others?

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Slapping someone, sure. Genocide? Not usually.
Combustible Lemur wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 3:51 pm
For a group of people arguing for more nuance in your show, you all a sure taking a pretty absolutist view of the characters and story.

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You're right, we should accept lazy writing without question or criticism.
I wonder if most murder suicides or mass shootings involve some aspect of depression./rage

Don't be obtuse. It's not a black and white conversation.



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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8

Post by Hyena » Tue May 14, 2019 4:03 pm

Toe wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 2:41 pm
Hyena wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 1:12 pm
msteelers wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 11:31 am
Ralph-Wiggum wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 11:22 am
msteelers wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 9:56 am
Zaxxon wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 1:31 am
If the goal was to have her decide that the cost is worthwhile, then once the walls are breached and she knows she's basically invulnerable (which she knows, given the way she slowly worked through the city) she could have proceeded as cleanly as possible to the Keep and nuked that. The idea that she just snapped and chose to napalm innocents/perceived subjects so much is simply not backed by her prior character development.
I think a rewatch of the series, knowing what we know now, is going to be very illuminating. Hell, even in the last two episodes she showed total disdain for the people of Kings Landing. They weren't innocent to her. They weren't hostages. They were implicit in Cersei's rule. They could have revolted at any time to punish the people that punished her and her family. They allowed all of the bad things that happened to Dany to happen.
As pointed out in a GoT recap I listen to, if the writers felt they had done a good enough job setting up Dany's sudden descent into madness, they wouldn't have felt the need to overlay a bunch of sound bites from previous episodes/seasons on to the "previously on" segment of the show. As far as they (or I) can remember, this is the first time the "previously on" wasn't just clips of past episodes.
As far as I know all of those sound bytes were from previous episodes, and it's not unusual for shows to throw in something on the "previously on" segment from several seasons prior if it will help viewers understand something in the upcoming episode.

I thought the previously on was very well done and set the tone for where Dany and her advisors were when the episode started.
And the fact that they were all overlapping each other while we see her face go from upset to anger to rage to blind fury, almost sounding like voices in the head of a...um...crazy person.
Schizophrenic people usually don't go the upset-angry-rage-blind fury rout though (that is actually what more "normal" people would do to be honest). How you would have felt if Dany instead just started grinning, all crazy-eyed, then began torching the "innocent" while cackling? You probalbly might have thought "Wow, she went from 0 to crazy real fast eh?"
Yeah, but she didn't go all crazy-eyed grinning suddenly. We heard all of the people's comments throughout the entire series play through her head, along with what we know of the deaths of dozens of her closest advisers, two of her dragonkids, the beheading of her closest friend, the rejection of her lover/nephew, and possibly worst of all, his worthiness to be on the throne more so than her own, both by blood AND by favor of the people. Couple that with her blind hatred of Cercei and the simple fact that she is the daughter of a madman through centuries of incest, abuse at the hand of her brother (both physical and mental), and the revenge clock hammering away in her mind?

*snap*
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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8

Post by hepcat » Tue May 14, 2019 4:05 pm

Combustible Lemur wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 3:59 pm

Don't be obtuse. It's not a black and white conversation.
Yet you accused those who disagreed with you of just that with your silly claim of absolutism on our part.
Hyena wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 4:03 pm
Yeah, but she didn't go all crazy-eyed grinning suddenly. We heard all of the people's comments throughout the entire series play through her head, along with what we know of the deaths of dozens of her closest advisers, two of her dragonkids, the beheading of her closest friend, the rejection of her lover/nephew, and possibly worst of all, his worthiness to be on the throne more so than her own, both by blood AND by favor of the people. Couple that with her blind hatred of Cercei and the simple fact that she is the daughter of a madman through centuries of incest, abuse at the hand of her brother (both physical and mental), and the revenge clock hammering away in her mind?

*snap*
Too bad they waited until the penultimate episode to focus on all that.
Last edited by hepcat on Tue May 14, 2019 4:08 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8

Post by noxiousdog » Tue May 14, 2019 4:05 pm

Combustible Lemur wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 3:43 pm
Only to be faced with an unadoring westeros that is likely to turn on her the way all of her westerosi advisors have, how her targearyan lover has, and the way Sansa and the north have already threatened.
I'm not buying that either. One of her Westerosi advisors turned on her. She has allies in Dorn, The Iron Islands, Lord Sam Tarley, and Lord Gendry Baratheon. She can grant lands and titles for Highgarden, Casterly Rock (potentially Tyrion), and Dragonstone. Arguably she's had less backstabbing than any Westerosi.

The people of King's Landing would love her because she got rid of Cercei and killed the Night King.

Look, I get the idea they need her to go mad so they can get Jon on the throne. I'm ok with that (sort of), but I'm not buying the rationale they're they're short cutting.
And no one has committed violence in conjunction with the myriad of problems associated with depression? Danger to self and others?
The typical profile of a mass murderer isn't someone who has gotten what they wanted. I'm not even sure I could come up with an example. Serial killers?
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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8

Post by Rumpy » Tue May 14, 2019 4:09 pm

hepcat wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 2:03 pm
I think some of us who didn't think that at the time felt there was no reason to due to the way she was written. Her violent actions have always been directed at those who crossed her directly, and they were in line with the actions of your standard medieval monarch who sees force as one viable way to ensure loyalty. But she was certainly not Cersei level...and we're not discussing her in terms of insanity.
Exactly this, Hep. And we've properly understood her motivations in the past. It's all been within reason, until this point. And the thing is, at this point, with her razing the city, how exactly does she think she'll get the throne? I don't think there will be much left for her. Maybe that's part of the intent from the writers, to show that
there will be nothing left for anyone to take over.
Toe wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 3:25 pm
Except she explicated says to her council how she wanted to try Tyrion's idea (even though she knew it would fail), because she wanted the people to know she tried to be reasonable, not wanting to rule by fear, etc, etc. That not something someone says that is "chomping at the bit" imo.
Exactly. Doesn't sound like the kind of person who would suddenly snap and raze a city after they've surrendered. Could well be that her emotions got the better of her at that point, but the actions earlier in the episode certainly don't warrant her going full-tilt.
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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8

Post by hepcat » Tue May 14, 2019 4:10 pm

Listen, this is all getting too heated. Can we get back to what this thread should really be about?

Hot Pie fan fiction.
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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8

Post by Smoove_B » Tue May 14, 2019 4:13 pm

Enlarge Image

After spending the last day or so processing it, I'm still of the mind everything is rushed, but I'm more convinced she's been a monster all along and we all were "tricked" into thinking she wasn't.

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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8

Post by Combustible Lemur » Tue May 14, 2019 4:15 pm

hepcat wrote:
Combustible Lemur wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 3:59 pm

Don't be obtuse. It's not a black and white conversation.
Yet you accused those who disagreed with you of just that with your silly claim of absolutism on our part.
Hyena wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 4:03 pm
Yeah, but she didn't go all crazy-eyed grinning suddenly. We heard all of the people's comments throughout the entire series play through her head, along with what we know of the deaths of dozens of her closest advisers, two of her dragonkids, the beheading of her closest friend, the rejection of her lover/nephew, and possibly worst of all, his worthiness to be on the throne more so than her own, both by blood AND by favor of the people. Couple that with her blind hatred of Cercei and the simple fact that she is the daughter of a madman through centuries of incest, abuse at the hand of her brother (both physical and mental), and the revenge clock hammering away in her mind?

*snap*
Too bad they waited until the penultimate episode to focus on all that.
What?

I'm arguing that while the Dany turn was over the top, her willingness to kill lots of people out of rage and a sense of divine entitlement after being pushed to the edge isn't unfounded or out of the blue.
Your suggesting that the writers (paid professionals) got bored and abandoned their own biggest life's work betraying even the hint of these characters because Dany was a good soul and mental illness isn't some Grey area that leads some people grotesque violence. As best I can tell.
And yet I'm somehow demanding you not criticize a show that a few posts up, I criticized.

Obtuse.

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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8

Post by hepcat » Tue May 14, 2019 4:15 pm

If we're attributing insanity to anyone who kills an enemy, the whole cast is Joker level.
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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8

Post by hepcat » Tue May 14, 2019 4:18 pm

Combustible Lemur wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 4:15 pm
hepcat wrote:
Combustible Lemur wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 3:59 pm

Don't be obtuse. It's not a black and white conversation.
Yet you accused those who disagreed with you of just that with your silly claim of absolutism on our part.
Hyena wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 4:03 pm
Yeah, but she didn't go all crazy-eyed grinning suddenly. We heard all of the people's comments throughout the entire series play through her head, along with what we know of the deaths of dozens of her closest advisers, two of her dragonkids, the beheading of her closest friend, the rejection of her lover/nephew, and possibly worst of all, his worthiness to be on the throne more so than her own, both by blood AND by favor of the people. Couple that with her blind hatred of Cercei and the simple fact that she is the daughter of a madman through centuries of incest, abuse at the hand of her brother (both physical and mental), and the revenge clock hammering away in her mind?

*snap*
Too bad they waited until the penultimate episode to focus on all that.
What?

I'm arguing that while the Dany turn was over the top, her willingness to kill lots of people out of rage and a sense of divine entitlement after being pushed to the edge isn't unfounded or out of the blue.
Your suggesting that the writers (paid professionals) got bored and abandoned their own biggest life's work betraying even the hint of these characters because Dany was a good soul and mental illness isn't some Grey area that leads some people grotesque violence. As best I can tell.
And yet I'm somehow demanding you not criticize a show that a few posts up, I criticized.

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I responded to you saying anyone who disagreed with you was showing a failure of absolutism. It was a petty little jab that I responded to in kind.
Combustible Lemur wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 4:15 pm
Obtuse.
Kind of like that.

Relax Francis. Your getting all worked up over this discussion. Next thing you know you're gonna burn down your city in a rage because of it.
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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8

Post by Isgrimnur » Tue May 14, 2019 4:19 pm

Smoove_B wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 4:13 pm
Enlarge Image

After spending the last day or so processing it, I'm still of the mind everything is rushed, but I'm more convinced she's been a monster all along and we all were "tricked" into thinking she wasn't.
It's amazing what people will do for a cute blonde.

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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8

Post by Isgrimnur » Tue May 14, 2019 4:21 pm


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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8

Post by noxiousdog » Tue May 14, 2019 4:21 pm

Combustible Lemur wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 4:15 pm
I'm arguing that while the Dany turn was over the top, her willingness to kill lots of people out of rage and a sense of divine entitlement after being pushed to the edge isn't unfounded or out of the blue.
I still don't get the pushed to the edge. She WON. She wasn't desperate.
Your suggesting that the writers (paid professionals) got bored and abandoned their own biggest life's work betraying even the hint of these characters because Dany was a good soul and mental illness isn't some Grey area that leads some people grotesque violence. As best I can tell.
And yet I'm somehow demanding you not criticize a show that a few posts up, I criticized.
I thought it was well established the writers were bored and wanted to move on to other projects. Hence, the low episode count the last two years.

Regardless, I think there's something to be taken from the actors' responses.
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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8

Post by Combustible Lemur » Tue May 14, 2019 4:31 pm


noxiousdog wrote:
Combustible Lemur wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 3:43 pm
Only to be faced with an unadoring westeros that is likely to turn on her the way all of her westerosi advisors have, how her targearyan lover has, and the way Sansa and the north have already threatened.
I'm not buying that either. One of her Westerosi advisors turned on her. She has allies in Dorn, The Iron Islands, Lord Sam Tarley, and Lord Gendry Baratheon. She can grant lands and titles for Highgarden, Casterly Rock (potentially Tyrion), and Dragonstone. Arguably she's had less backstabbing than any Westerosi.

The people of King's Landing would love her because she got rid of Cercei and killed the Night King.

Look, I get the idea they need her to go mad so they can get Jon on the throne. I'm ok with that (sort of), but I'm not buying the rationale they're they're short cutting.
And no one has committed violence in conjunction with the myriad of problems associated with depression? Danger to self and others?
The typical profile of a mass murderer isn't someone who has gotten what they wanted. I'm not even sure I could come up with an example. Serial killers?
The allies that were murdered? The ones that retreated to the iron isles? The one whose whole family she executed? Or has as good a claim to the throne as she does? The high garden that Cersie sacked, casterly rock that cost her high garden and sits abandoned.
As to Less backstabbing, probably. That doesn't mean she's equipped to handle it. She's always disliked duplicity in general.
They are shortcutting, I don't think the arc is unfounded though, just poorly handled.

A short research look suggest that just over half 59% of mass murderers are diagnosed with mental illness including depression. Her "snapping" is really just a trope.

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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8

Post by noxiousdog » Tue May 14, 2019 4:36 pm

Combustible Lemur wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 4:31 pm
They are shortcutting, I don't think the arc is unfounded though, just poorly handled.
I'm fine with that. I thought you were suggesting they were doing it just fine.

A short research look suggest that just over half 59% of mass murderers are diagnosed with mental illness including depression. Her "snapping" is really just a trope.

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Well sure. But that's going the wrong direction. Roughly 40 million people in the US have depression. Very few of them become mass murderers.
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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8

Post by Combustible Lemur » Tue May 14, 2019 4:42 pm


noxiousdog wrote:
Combustible Lemur wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 4:31 pm
They are shortcutting, I don't think the arc is unfounded though, just poorly handled.
I'm fine with that. I thought you were suggesting they were doing it just fine.

A short research look suggest that just over half 59% of mass murderers are diagnosed with mental illness including depression. Her "snapping" is really just a trope.

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Well sure. But that's going the wrong direction. Roughly 40 million people in the US have depression. Very few of them become mass murderers.
As smoove linked, I'm just saying it wasn't unfounded.

Danerys Targeryan Breaker of chains Last of her seasons, Sautee'er of children, smasher of towers, Banger of nephews, supporter of Rockets is not 40 million people.

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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8

Post by Combustible Lemur » Tue May 14, 2019 4:49 pm

noxiousdog wrote:
Combustible Lemur wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 4:15 pm
I'm arguing that while the Dany turn was over the top, her willingness to kill lots of people out of rage and a sense of divine entitlement after being pushed to the edge isn't unfounded or out of the blue.
I still don't get the pushed to the edge. She WON. She wasn't desperate.
Your suggesting that the writers (paid professionals) got bored and abandoned their own biggest life's work betraying even the hint of these characters because Dany was a good soul and mental illness isn't some Grey area that leads some people grotesque violence. As best I can tell.
And yet I'm somehow demanding you not criticize a show that a few posts up, I criticized.
I thought it was well established the writers were bored and wanted to move on to other projects. Hence, the low episode count the last two years.

Regardless, I think there's something to be taken from the actors' responses.
Maybe they are hacks.
There's also quite a distance between let's end this multi million dollar international career boosting massive ensemble project project across two additional years in a cohesive if flawed way, to fuck this I'm done give the script to the monkeys with typewriters.

Though that's how I felt about last Jedi, so what do I know.

Check out @DSilvermint’s Tweet: https://twitter.com/DSilvermint/status ... 36896?s=09

Interesting comparison in the writing styles.

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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8

Post by Jaymann » Tue May 14, 2019 4:50 pm

Drazzil wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 3:49 pm
One interesting thing I read somwhere was that Varys tried to poison Dany at the beginning of the episode. Thus the little girl said "The queens not eating now"...
So next week the kitchen urchin poisons Dany in revenge for Varys. Problem solved.
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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8

Post by Ralph-Wiggum » Tue May 14, 2019 4:56 pm

Smoove_B wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 4:13 pm
Enlarge Image

After spending the last day or so processing it, I'm still of the mind everything is rushed, but I'm more convinced she's been a monster all along and we all were "tricked" into thinking she wasn't.
And only one of these deals with burning people that aren't 1) enemy combatants, 2) people that did Dany dirty, or 3) oppressors of the downtrodden.

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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8

Post by rittchard » Tue May 14, 2019 4:58 pm

It seems like it's probably not even debatable that there are enough hints etc dropped throughout that this is the direction GRRM intended for the character to go. I think (at least for me) it's just the way it was presented (or not presented) that was the problem. Because of the extreme nature of callously frying innocent people OVER and OVER again, almost to the point it looked like she was deliberately chasing them for sport, I think most fans would have preferred a more clear build up or maybe just a clearer representation of true *madness*. If indeed that was the point, since it sounds like some people are implying she was always just kind of evil (which I certainly never saw). Again, all they had to do was give us a few more reaction shots, make her laugh maniacally or turn her eyes bright red or something I don't know. The way it was presented, I just didn't buy it. It was gratuitous in a way that was completely non-sensical and inconsistent. Having the showrunner then after the fact tell me it was seeing the Red Keep that made her "snap" - even that was a fail if you ask me.

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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8

Post by Toe » Tue May 14, 2019 5:04 pm

Some more thoughts and analysis:

I think most people would agree that the "madness" being reffered to in GoT is schizophrenia? It is something that can be genetically passed on and also occurs more frequently in incestual offspring, so seems a given.

An interesting stat on schizophrenia is that it's symptoms typically begin in the late 20s (for females, a little sooner in males). From a timing perspective, does make more sense that she "broke" now and had not being showing those same signs earlier.

She strikes out on quite a few of the typical symptoms of schizophrenia, but some are broad enough to fit her actions in.

Positive symptoms are disturbances that are “added” to the person’s personality.

Delusions
–false ideas--individuals may believe that someone is spying on him or her, or that they are someone famous (or a religious figure).

Hallucinations
–seeing, feeling, tasting, hearing or smelling something that doesn’t really exist. The most common experience is hearing imaginary voices that give commands or comments to the individual.

Disordered thinking and speech
–moving from one topic to another, in a nonsensical fashion. Individuals may also make up their own words or sounds, rhyme in a way that doesn't make sense, or repeat words and ideas.

Disorganized behavior
–this can range from having problems with routine behaviors like hygiene or chosing appropriate clothing for the weather, to unprovoked outbursts, to impulsive and uninhibited actions. A person may also have movements that seem anxious, agitated, tense or constant without any apparent reason.

Negative symptoms are capabilities that are “lost” from the person’s personality.

Social withdrawal
Extreme apathy (lack of interest or enthusiasm)
Lack of drive or initiative
Emotional flatness

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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8

Post by Holman » Tue May 14, 2019 5:13 pm

If we're down to explaining the show via the DSM rather on the merits of its storytelling, something has gone very wrong.
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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8

Post by Zaxxon » Tue May 14, 2019 5:19 pm


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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8

Post by McNutt » Tue May 14, 2019 5:33 pm


noxiousdog wrote:
I still don't get the pushed to the edge. She WON. She wasn't desperate.
She doesn't think SHE won. The good guys won, but it might be Jon that wins in the end. She's seeing her life's dream taken from her as she's reaching for it.

Her response? F that noise. I'm the queen and don't you forget it. I'll make sure you don't.

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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8

Post by ImLawBoy » Tue May 14, 2019 5:58 pm

noxiousdog wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 2:38 pm
ImLawBoy wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 1:12 pm
noxiousdog wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 1:00 pm
ImLawBoy wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 12:47 pm
Are you talking about the bell ringing before she went to torch the city? Because that doesn't necessarily mean the people have embraced her and overthrown Cersei. It means that the city surrendered. That's a big difference. They're still her enemies.
They were her enemies because they didn't overthrow Cersei. They even had a conversation about it.
Right. That was my point. What are you disagreeing with me about?
Because once they surrendered they were no longer enemies. If she burns them prior to surrender? Fine. If she had gone straight from the scorpions to the people? Fine. If she had burned Cercei and the Red Keep? Fine.
That's not how it works. The Germans were still the enemies of the US even after surrendering in WWII, at least at first. They surrendered, but they were still surrendered (non-combatant) enemies.
noxiousdog wrote:But to burn the fleet, then rest and hang out. Watch the people DO WHAT YOU WANT THEM TO DO, and then burn them? bah. People don't snap after getting what they want.
She didn't get all of what she wanted. She wanted their love. Laying down their arms is not the same thing. She sat there on the wall thinking about how she had finally obtained the throne, but she was still in peril. Her closest advisors were dead or traitors or were going to claim her throne. Her great "alliances" with the other houses were fickle, and would convert over to Jon the Usurper. The people she freed wouldn't appreciate her. It's not necessarily rational, but the point is that she was not rational. She then went to her "fear" plan. Let the people know what happens if you don't support her. Let the other houses know what's in store if they try to switch allegiances to Jon. Had she been rational (i.e., not the Mad Queen), she almost certainly would not have lit everyone up. She wasn't rational, though. Trying to ascribe rationality to her actions is not going to work.
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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8

Post by D.A.Lewis » Tue May 14, 2019 6:14 pm

hepcat wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 2:03 pm
I think some of us who didn't think that at the time felt there was no reason to due to the way she was written. Her violent actions have always been directed at those who crossed her directly, and they were in line with the actions of your standard medieval monarch who sees force as one viable way to ensure loyalty. But she was certainly not Cersei level...and we're not discussing her in terms of insanity.

I agree that the need to announce she might go mad in the "last week on GoT" intro is a good indication that they knew they screwed up and needed to rush this.
This. Ned beheads some sympathetic character in the first few minutes of the show. I think this type of justice was established very early in the series. Danys form of justice never seemed to be a foreshadow of madness, she just had a better execution tool. And it's not that I am against a character arc that has her go mad, but it's not the type of thing you spring on an audience/reader, if you want your story to feel real. I mean we're talking Martin here not Christy.
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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8

Post by Hyena » Tue May 14, 2019 7:29 pm

Toe wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 5:04 pm
Some more thoughts and analysis:

I think most people would agree that the "madness" being reffered to in GoT is schizophrenia? It is something that can be genetically passed on and also occurs more frequently in incestual offspring, so seems a given.

An interesting stat on schizophrenia is that it's symptoms typically begin in the late 20s (for females, a little sooner in males). From a timing perspective, does make more sense that she "broke" now and had not being showing those same signs earlier.

She strikes out on quite a few of the typical symptoms of schizophrenia, but some are broad enough to fit her actions in.

Positive symptoms are disturbances that are “added” to the person’s personality.

Delusions
–false ideas--individuals may believe that someone is spying on him or her, or that they are someone famous (or a religious figure).

Hallucinations
–seeing, feeling, tasting, hearing or smelling something that doesn’t really exist. The most common experience is hearing imaginary voices that give commands or comments to the individual.

Disordered thinking and speech
–moving from one topic to another, in a nonsensical fashion. Individuals may also make up their own words or sounds, rhyme in a way that doesn't make sense, or repeat words and ideas.

Disorganized behavior
–this can range from having problems with routine behaviors like hygiene or chosing appropriate clothing for the weather, to unprovoked outbursts, to impulsive and uninhibited actions. A person may also have movements that seem anxious, agitated, tense or constant without any apparent reason.

Negative symptoms are capabilities that are “lost” from the person’s personality.

Social withdrawal
Extreme apathy (lack of interest or enthusiasm)
Lack of drive or initiative
Emotional flatness
I feel this is putting too specific a label on it. You can't break down her symptoms, or lack there of, and say, "Clearly we're dealing with a case of schizophrenia." The "madness" I see is one borne of an entire life of seeking revenge, living under the stigma of having an insane father for a king that was murdered for trying to burn the kingdom down around his own head, and paranoia that all her closest allies are dead and gone. When she is finally and quite literally on the doorstep of achieving her life-long goal of revenge and reclaiming what she views as her birthright, she sees it all taken from her. She's not some clinically diagnosed case of schizophrenia, she's a barren, incest-produced, pissed-off, twenty-something girl, spurned by her lover/nephew who (in her mind) will take everything from her she's worked for and fought for and endured absolute HELL for. She is obviously not in a right frame of mind, and when you put steam under pressure for too long, it *will* explode.

And oh yeah, she's also sitting on a dragon.
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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8

Post by McNutt » Tue May 14, 2019 7:43 pm

Her chosen forms of execution send a different message.


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Re: Game of Thrones Season 8

Post by Rumpy » Tue May 14, 2019 7:59 pm

McNutt wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 5:33 pm
noxiousdog wrote:
I still don't get the pushed to the edge. She WON. She wasn't desperate.
She doesn't think SHE won. The good guys won, but it might be Jon that wins in the end. She's seeing her life's dream taken from her as she's reaching for it.

Her response? F that noise. I'm the queen and don't you forget it. I'll make sure you don't.

Arguably, nothing's been taken from her. She all but had it at the point Cersei's soldiers shit their breeches out of fear of seeing her dragon get so close, laying down their arms in the process. At that point, she could have landed Drogon, walked in and had a personal confrontation with Cersei. But no, they had to have her snap, apparently.

And honestly, I was hoping for a Dany/Cersei confrontation.
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