The Batman - Robert Pattinson

Rumpy · Post by **Rumpy** » Thu Sep 03, 2020 8:36 pm

hepcat wrote: ↑Thu Sep 03, 2020 7:56 pm
Rumpy wrote: ↑Thu Sep 03, 2020 7:39 pm'. Meanwhile, I much prefer movies like the Sam Raimi/Tobey Maguire Spiderman movies to the newer ones, again because of story development and heart. Newer movies don't seem to be as well done, IMHO.
I want to agree with you 100 percent but Tom Holland is the one thing keeping from doing so. He really is great as Peter Parker.

Maybe, but hooo-boy, do I ever find him annoying. I find him to be a little too hyper. What I liked about Tobey Maguire's take was that he was calm and calculating. I found that the PS4 Spiderman seemed to mostly be inspired by Tobey Maguire's version.

Pyperkub · Post by **Pyperkub** » Thu Sep 03, 2020 8:39 pm

hepcat wrote:
Rumpy wrote: ↑Thu Sep 03, 2020 7:39 pm'. Meanwhile, I much prefer movies like the Sam Raimi/Tobey Maguire Spiderman movies to the newer ones, again because of story development and heart. Newer movies don't seem to be as well done, IMHO.
I want to agree with you 100 percent but Tom Holland is the one thing keeping from doing so. He really is great as Peter Parker.

Yeah, Homecoming was fantastic. And they did it with the Vulture. Probably the worst of the spider man villains. Michael Keaton was fantastic. That scene in the car was chilling.

Sudy · Post by **Sudy** » Thu Sep 03, 2020 9:21 pm

I don't think I've watched any of the DC network/cable series since the first few seasons of Arrow. I can't imagine sitting through a 20+-episode season these days, not when they tend not to have the storytelling punch of the shorter premium and streaming series.

But as much as I know I'm going to have a good time when I go to a Marvel movie (and I think Mrs. Nym and I have seen all of them in theatres except for Ant-Man 2), I rarely have a great one. While some of them have played around with genres in fun ways, few of them take risks or do something truly mind blowing. Off the top of my head, I make exceptions for Guardians 1 & 2, Thor 3, and Endgame. I really liked or came to appreciate those ones. Homecoming was great too, though Spider-Man's never been my favourite.

But post-Nolan DC has just been so weird. I actually liked Man of Steel, but I appreciate that it didn't feel like Superman. I'm just not much of a Superman fan, so I didn't mind. I love Russel Crowe and Michael Shannon in just about anything, and suspect it was actually the non-Superman things I liked most about that film. I took years to see BvS, and I'm not disappointed I waited. It didn't make me want to barf or anything, but it was pretty frustrating. Wonder Woman was quite good, but... kind of felt like a Marvel film. Justice League wasn't as bad as I was expecting. And I actually found Aquaman to be a lot of fun. But storytelling-wise they're all over the place, which given that they didn't have the strict planning of the Marvel universe I suppose is both a curse and a potential blessing.

I presume The Batman will carve out its own place, close but not as far away from the previous DC films as The Joker did. I heard Affleck is actually going to reprise his role in The Flash, if that ever happens. I wonder if they're going to retcon the universe as many suspect and make Pattinson part of the revamped one. I presume that's inevitable unless Affleck wants to stick around, which seems unlikely.

hepcat · Post by **hepcat** » Thu Sep 03, 2020 9:39 pm

I think the unified DC cinematic universe idea is dead at this point. They tried it, they failed. They have succeeded with movies that weren’t tied into that though, so that’s where they’re going to stake their claim from now on.

Daehawk · Post by **Daehawk** » Thu Sep 03, 2020 9:44 pm

Tobey > Tom

Rumpy · Post by **Rumpy** » Thu Sep 03, 2020 9:58 pm

Sudy wrote: ↑Thu Sep 03, 2020 9:21 pm But as much as I know I'm going to have a good time when I go to a Marvel movie (and I think Mrs. Nym and I have seen all of them in theatres except for Ant-Man 2), I rarely have a great one. While some of them have played around with genres in fun ways, few of them take risks or do something truly mind blowing

Yep, that's where I'm at. I just don't really get excited for them anymore. I loved the Ironman movies, but I think the MCU has made them mind-numbing. As such, after those and the first Avengers, I only went out of my way for Black Panther. And Wonder Woman, funnily enough was the one my Mom really wanted to go see and she's normally not into Superhero stuff. So, when I was watching Raimi's Spiderman, I was surprised by how good it was in terms of character moments and development that you just don't see much of anymore.

Daehawk · Post by **Daehawk** » Thu Sep 03, 2020 10:25 pm

Need an R rated Wolverine with a new actor. Maybe a Wolverine / Deadpool team up. Wolverine does the dark stuff and Deadpool adds humor.

Post by **ImLawBoy** » Thu Sep 03, 2020 10:50 pm

hepcat wrote: ↑Thu Sep 03, 2020 9:39 pm I think the unified DC cinematic universe idea is dead at this point. They tried it, they failed. They have succeeded with movies that weren’t tied into that though, so that’s where they’re going to stake their claim from now on.

Just about a year ago (last October, back when people could freely travel and gather), the AT&T Legal Conference had a session to familiarize us with the DC world we had recently acquired. We were told at the time that DC was leaning heavily into the multiverse concept, focusing on "Ages and Stages" (meaning vastly different output that would be appropriate for people/kids at various ages and stages in their lives). While that meant there were going to be some series/movies tied together, there would also be plenty of stand-alone stuff. I think the success of the disconnected Batman stuff and things like Aquaman and Shazam really cemented that approach.

Daehawk wrote: ↑Thu Sep 03, 2020 10:25 pm Need an R rated Wolverine with a new actor. Maybe a Wolverine / Deadpool team up. Wolverine does the dark stuff and Deadpool adds humor.

I wonder whether we'll see much R stuff from Marvel going forward. They want to keep Disney+ PG-13 and lower, so I don't know if Disney will greenlight expensive R rated stuff that they can't put on Disney+.

Isgrimnur · Post by **Isgrimnur** » Thu Sep 03, 2020 11:40 pm

Disney has had an outlet for more adult fare. Touchstone Pictures distributed Signs, Armageddon, Good Morning, Vietnam, etc.

Post by **ImLawBoy** » Thu Sep 03, 2020 11:44 pm

Sure. A common thread among those movies is that they were made before Disney+, though.

Disney and it's affiliates will continue to make R rated movies. They can even stream them online - they own Hulu, after all. I just wonder whether they'll sink the money into big superhero movies that they won't put on their big streaming service.

hepcat · Post by **hepcat** » Fri Sep 04, 2020 9:24 am

Daehawk wrote: ↑Thu Sep 03, 2020 9:44 pm Tobey > Tom

For me it's more Toby = Tom or Tom = Toby. I really like both of their Peter Parker portrayals...picked a peck of pickled peppers...or whatever.

Toby was perfect for the films that Raimi did, which were more about loss and tragedy. While Tom was perfect for the new films as he dealt more with Peter struggling to be a teen while also being a superhero.

Rumpy · Post by **Rumpy** » Sat Sep 05, 2020 2:34 pm

Saw the Andrew Garfield version and I still prefer Tobey Maguire in the role. And I don't think making him a teen quite works for me, and some of the origin and character development isn't quite as well done.

But back to Batman. I don't feel the need or want to see Batman beating someone senseless. That's not noble and I'd argue that we seem to be getting further from what makes a hero a hero. And I'd also argue that we need more lighthearted fare during this pandemic, not less.

Blackhawk · Post by **Blackhawk** » Sat Sep 05, 2020 8:49 pm

Rumpy wrote: ↑Sat Sep 05, 2020 2:34 pm
But back to Batman. I don't feel the need or want to see Batman beating someone senseless. That's not noble and I'd argue that we seem to be getting further from what makes a hero a hero.

Batman's been a hero that is teetering on the edge of being an anti-hero for a long time now. In most modern interpretations of the character Batman is basically the Punisher, but holds himself back because of a strong moral code. It's widely considered that Batman isn't entirely right in the head, but manages to channel that in a positive direction. Many stories deal with him going back and forth over that line. He's a danger to others if he lets himself slip, and he know it.

It's what makes the character more interesting than Superman, who is 'noble', in most stories.

Batman and the batplane, 1940:

Rumpy · Post by **Rumpy** » Sat Sep 05, 2020 9:32 pm

Blackhawk wrote: ↑Sat Sep 05, 2020 8:49 pm
Rumpy wrote: ↑Sat Sep 05, 2020 2:34 pm
But back to Batman. I don't feel the need or want to see Batman beating someone senseless. That's not noble and I'd argue that we seem to be getting further from what makes a hero a hero.
It's widely considered that Batman isn't entirely right in the head, but manages to channel that in a positive direction. Many stories deal with him going back and forth over that line.

Then maybe it's up to the writers to find that more positive direction? I don't buy that because he's a dark brooding figure that it necessarily always has to be dark this dark that. The last few iterations have leaned heavily in that direction.

Daehawk · Post by **Daehawk** » Sat Sep 05, 2020 9:38 pm

I lean to think in this movie he is young and new'ish and is finding his way.

Smoove_B · Post by **Smoove_B** » Sat Sep 05, 2020 10:00 pm

Rumpy wrote: ↑Sat Sep 05, 2020 9:32 pm I don't buy that because he's a dark brooding figure that it necessarily always has to be dark this dark that.

So...you want Batman the Moody Knight? Batman the Slightly Irritated Knight?

Dude is messed up. The better (i.e. newer) version(s) of him that acknowledge it make him a better character, imho. The fact that he's able to walk that line and deliver justice (as Blackhawk notes) is what makes him such a great character. And it's also why I typically don't like the golden age heroes. They're devoid of character and exist largely to fight "evil". The Batman is nuanced. He's a complicated dude living in a messed up world.

Rumpy · Post by **Rumpy** » Sat Sep 05, 2020 10:09 pm

Smoove_B wrote: ↑Sat Sep 05, 2020 10:00 pm
Rumpy wrote: ↑Sat Sep 05, 2020 9:32 pm I don't buy that because he's a dark brooding figure that it necessarily always has to be dark this dark that.
So...you want Batman the Moody Knight? Batman the Slightly Irritated Knight?

No, I'm just saying that there are better ways. From seeing that trailer he's already quite moody anyways. I just don't want him to senselessly beat them up because even for Batman, that doesn't seem right.

Blackhawk · Post by **Blackhawk** » Sat Sep 05, 2020 10:13 pm

There are characters that are noble, light, optimistic, and positive. Superman (the "big blue boy scout"), Wonder Woman, Flash, Nightwing (there's your positive Batman), Shazam, Green Lantern John Stewart, Martian Manhunter. Some of those are getting movies. But Batman is not that character, and turning him into that is as off as making the others brooding and violent. And when you look at something like the Justice League (not the film), it is that conflict that makes it so interesting. Batman's line-bending violence contrasted by Superman's nobility, Flash's humor contrasting Wonder Woman's seriousness, etc.

Giving them all Superman's personality would drain the life from the setting.

Rumpy · Post by **Rumpy** » Sat Sep 05, 2020 10:44 pm

I'm not asking him to have Superman's personality. I'm just wishing it wasn't so damned dark. Batman can still be Batman and still offer a glimmer of hope. Beating someone to a bloody pulp is pushing it even for Batman.

Smoove_B · Post by **Smoove_B** » Sat Sep 05, 2020 11:03 pm

Rumpy wrote: ↑Sat Sep 05, 2020 10:44 pm Beating someone to a bloody pulp is pushing it even for Batman.

Which is weird to me - because it's exactly how I think of him. What's your experience with the character? Were you raised on Adam West Batman? Superfriends cartoon Batman? Kevin Conroy Batman the Animated Series? I'm not trying to be snarky, just trying to understand how you came to think of him a certain way. For me I started (as a kid) watching re-runs of the Adam West version then the Superfriends. But as a teenager and young adult I re-discovered him through Frank Miller's eyes (though it had been out long before I'd read it). That version (Frank Miller's) is where everything changed for me. Yes, he's older cranky Batman in that run but just the overall change in tone and change in his character at that point. Moving from that into The Killing Joke just continued that change (for me). Add that to Christian Bale's portrayal (and that entire movie run) and I have really come to enjoy the character. Even the Arkham video games are fantastic and incorporate so much of this "Dark Knight" philosophy.

Daehawk · Post by **Daehawk** » Sat Sep 05, 2020 11:04 pm

Rumpy · Post by **Rumpy** » Sat Sep 05, 2020 11:21 pm

Smoove_B wrote: ↑Sat Sep 05, 2020 11:03 pm
Rumpy wrote: ↑Sat Sep 05, 2020 10:44 pm Beating someone to a bloody pulp is pushing it even for Batman.
Which is weird to me - because it's exactly how I think of him. What's your experience with the character? Were you raised on Adam West Batman? Superfriends cartoon Batman? Kevin Conroy Batman the Animated Series? I'm not trying to be snarky, just trying to understand how you came to think of him a certain way. For me I started (as a kid) watching re-runs of the Adam West version then the Superfriends.

No, I understand the reasoning. I've watched a lot of Adam West, and even the earlier movies, and I even liked Nolan's trilogy to some extent. But It's the more modern interpretrations that have taken a sharp turn into being darker. I feel there should be some positivity to it even while he's who he is, if that makes any sense. I kind of don't want it to be unfeeling. I guess what I'm trying to say is that while I appreciate dark, I don't like it grimdark.

Blackhawk · Post by **Blackhawk** » Sun Sep 06, 2020 10:45 am

I was also introduced to the character via Superfriends in the late 70s. FWIW, it's been close to 35 years since Batman made the turn for the darker (the aforementioned Frank Miller run.)

Batman in the comics does have that positivity, that ray of hope. But it is always obscured by the fact that Batman fights to give it to others, and never gets that bit of light himself. A recent storyline had the core premise that the world needs Batman to make it, and Batman can't be happy and still be Batman.

Comics spoiler:

Spoiler:

I think the modern Batman is a lot like the Michael Douglas's character from Falling Down. He had one bad day, and has been right on the edge of snapping ever since. Every once in a while he loses control and steps over the line. FWIW, keeping Batman firmly on the 'hero' side of that line and injecting that ray positivity is Robin's role in the comics. That's never translated well into film. In fact, in both the Miller Batman and the recent DCEU films it was Robin being killed that sent Batman over the edge. Batfleck needs him some Tim Drake!

Rumpy · Post by **Rumpy** » Sun Sep 06, 2020 2:15 pm

Yeah, don't get me wrong, I understand the point of Batman and his character, which is in fact a perfect counterpoint to Superman. He's just a different kind of hero who happens to get more physical. But somewhere along the line, it seems that with each iteration, they've had to try one-upping each other in terms of how dark they get. And what does it say when someone who's played the Joker had it affecting him so deeply that he eventually took his own life? I'm not saying Batman needs to become a ray of sunshine, as that would be untrue to the character, I'm just asking for the degree of darkness in these iterations to be scaled back a bit, particularly in a time when we could all use a bit of lightness. There's nothing inherently wrong with darkness, but I do think there needs to be checks and balances.

I do think that Batman can both be dark and noble, as the two needn't be exclusive. There were touches of this in the Tim Burton Batmans.

Blackhawk wrote: ↑Sun Sep 06, 2020 10:45 am
Batman in the comics does have that positivity, that ray of hope. But it is always obscured by the fact that Batman fights to give it to others, and never gets that bit of light himself. A recent storyline had the core premise that the world needs Batman to make it, and Batman can't be happy and still be Batman.

See, I wouldn't mind this at all as a storyline in a movie as it would at least balance things out a bit, but the movies seem only interested of showing everything as dark.

Daehawk · Post by **Daehawk** » Sun Sep 06, 2020 3:09 pm

I was also introduced to the character via Superfriends in the late 70s.

I used to love Saturday mornings in the 70s! Superfriends was one I watched too.

hepcat · Post by **hepcat** » Mon Sep 07, 2020 7:24 pm

Rumpy wrote: ↑Sat Sep 05, 2020 10:44 pm I'm not asking him to have Superman's personality. I'm just wishing it wasn't so damned dark. Batman can still be Batman and still offer a glimmer of hope. Beating someone to a bloody pulp is pushing it even for Batman.

Silver age Batman used to carry a gun...and wasn’t afraid to use it.

Side note: A local news station plays classic radio programs on some weeknights late. A few weeks ago, they played an old Superman radio show. I realized about 15 minutes into it that THAT Superman was...well...a huge dick. In the space of one episode, he terrified an innocent Filipino houseboy whose only crime was unwittingly working for a crime lord (threatening to come back and “hurt him bad” if he told his boss he’s been there) and then scared a kid by telling him that evil men could get him at any time. I mean, this was Superman the bully. What the hell was wrong with people back then?

Rumpy · Post by **Rumpy** » Mon Sep 07, 2020 8:19 pm

hepcat wrote: ↑Mon Sep 07, 2020 7:24 pm
Silver age Batman used to carry a gun...and wasn’t afraid to use it.

Sure. But it's the difference between knowing how to use it and when to use it

Just because he has one doesn't mean he's going to shoot someone's face off. And it would be more out of self-defense anyway.

Blackhawk · Post by **Blackhawk** » Mon Sep 07, 2020 9:28 pm

That'd be golden age Batman.

The Silver Age didn't have any of that pesky violence, but it sure did have a swell Comics Code Authority stamp of approval!

Smoove_B · Post by **Smoove_B** » Mon Sep 07, 2020 10:26 pm

Golden Age Batman comics had lots of boners. You can almost understand how the Comic Authority came into existence.

Daehawk · Post by **Daehawk** » Sat Oct 16, 2021 5:33 pm

Love it.

Blackhawk · Post by **Blackhawk** » Sat Oct 16, 2021 6:46 pm

I don't hate it, but I really wish we could stay away from 'grounded' comic book films. There is a happy medium between Nolan and Schumacher. The MCU found that. I wish DC would.

hepcat · Post by **hepcat** » Sun Oct 17, 2021 8:06 am

I think a grounded Batman is fine. His enemies are usually mentally disturbed criminals, not gods or aliens. The DCU goes for the fantastical with their other franchises though.

In that clip, I’m guessing they show almost the entirety of The Penguin’s appearances as I’ve read he’s only in it for a couple of scenes.

Combustible Lemur · Post by **Combustible Lemur** » Sun Oct 17, 2021 11:21 am

hepcat wrote:

In that clip, I’m guessing they show almost the entirety of The Penguin’s appearances as I’ve read he’s only in it for a couple of scenes.

It kinda feels like this isn't even established penguin. He doesn't read particularly penguiny. This is early career batman so this might just be Oswald Cobblepot's gang getting busted up, and him sent to arkham in act one. Potentially banking Farrel for future installments, while slowly revealing riddler.

Or as you say, grounded.

Where are my whimsical rocket wearing arctic birds? I will be disappointed if this penguin doesn't eat chum from a bucket

Sent from my SM-N975U using Tapatalk

YellowKing · Post by **YellowKing** » Sun Oct 17, 2021 2:57 pm

Love the new trailer. While I'm in general agreement that DC needs to lighten things up a bit, Batman is the one hero I'm fine with the darker the better. Because that's true to the comics. Darkness is fine if that's what the comic is - it's when the comic is a bit lighter (like Superman) and you try to make it dark that it doesn't feel right.

We had decades of campy Batman, I don't even want to attempt to go anywhere near that again.

hepcat · Post by **hepcat** » Sun Oct 17, 2021 3:00 pm

Nipples....nipples on the suit...THAT'S what Blackhawk wants.

Blackhawk · Post by **Blackhawk** » Sun Oct 17, 2021 3:11 pm

hepcat wrote: ↑Sun Oct 17, 2021 3:00 pm Nipples....nipples on the suit...THAT'S what Blackhawk wants.

No, Blackhawk wants the happy medium. Grounded enough to be believable, but not so grounded that some comic book elements can't exist (Mr Freeze, Killer Croc, Clayface, Man-Bat, Poison Ivy, Ra's Al-Ghul, Bane, a lot of others.) Those elements either can't exist, or have to be substantially altered to fit into a fully grounded Batman film.

Again, the MCU pulled it off. Films like Iron Man and Captain America were all grounded enough to be believable, but still had their comic book elements intact without falling victim to camp.

hepcat · Post by **hepcat** » Sun Oct 17, 2021 3:14 pm

Come on, admit it. Even one nipple on a suit would make you happier, wouldn't it?

Blackhawk · Post by **Blackhawk** » Sun Oct 17, 2021 3:17 pm

hepcat wrote: ↑Sun Oct 17, 2021 3:14 pm Come on, admit it. Even one nipple on a suit would make you happier, wouldn't it?

...

Ok, one nipple, carefully placed.

hepcat · Post by **hepcat** » Sun Oct 17, 2021 3:24 pm

Too bad, you get two!

YellowKing · Post by **YellowKing** » Sun Oct 17, 2021 6:27 pm

Ah yeah, grounded is definitely different from dark, I get what you're saying. There's really no room in a Pattinson Batman for some of Gotham's more colorful characters.

I do like the darker take this time around on The Riddler though, just because he hasn't yet been presented that way yet in movies or on the screen. Even the "darker" take in the Gotham TV series was still full of camp.