HVAC Questions/Scam?

[Grifman]

Background first. I’ve used the same HVAC company for several years. Every year they come out and do an inspection of my system and up until now I’ve been pleased. However, after this year’s inspection, I believe they are trying to scam me. And fyi, my system is about 12 years old and will probably need replacing any time now.

After this inspection, the tech said I have the following problems:

1) The starter system on the AC is in bad shape and needs replacing. Fair enough. He’s pricing that at $660.
2) He says that the motor/bearing in the heating/system and going bad and leaking oil. That’s another $1800 to fix. Hmm, that seems a bit high, but maybe.
3) But this is the kicker and where I think the scam is. He claims the problem with the motor bearings is that the air distribution system (fancy term for duct work) is leaking, causing the motor to strain. He also says that it is dirty because of the leaks, putting additional strain on it. He says that they duct work needs cleaning and sealing, and that this would be another $4,000.

Now, that last point seems unlikely to me. First, I’ve gone on online and there are a number of reasons the duct work might need cleaning but this isn’t one of them. Secondly, they come out here every year and now all of a sudden my duct work needs sealing? Does that make any sense?

So I think I am being scammed about the need for duct work cleaning and resealing. Which also makes me wonder about the price on the other items. I’m thinking about getting another HVAC guy out here to look at things and give me a second opinion.

Any expert opinions out there? Thanks.

[Holman]

I know nothing, but definitely get a second opinion.

[Skinypupy]

So I think I am being scammed about the need for duct work cleaning and resealing. Which also makes me wonder about the price on the other items. I’m thinking about getting another HVAC guy out here to look at things and give me a second opinion.

Definitely do this. I'd also let the original company know that you're skeptical about their diagnosis, which is why you're doing it. If it's a scam, they might try to backtrack on it, knowing that someone else wouldn't find the same thing.

[LordMortis]

I know nothing, but definitely get a second opinion.

+1

Also how big is your house? I don't know about relative areas but I had a whole furnace, chimney liner (to bring me up to code), and AC coil, pan, and drainage put in for $1200+tax with a 15 year parts/2 year labor warranty for just shy of 1,000 square foot house about three years ago. No duct work, no actual AC work.

Also, the furnace I had was 25+ years old. The new energy efficient model did exactly nothing to fulfill the promise of reducing the gas I used, but it cut over $20 off my electric bill from before my furnace going FUBAR and over $50 a month as the blower/motor/capacitor were frying out. My new furnace will pay for itself fairly quickly, especially when I factor in add repair costs not incurred.

Good luck.

[Grifman]

My concern is that the second guy will try to scam me with the same song and dance. This whole experience is making me distrustful. I've used these guys for several years and they have a pretty high customer service rating on Google. It's hard when you really know nothing about an issue and have to rely upon others. But I'm still going to do it. Will be interesting to see what they say. I'll probably do it but not tell them what the other HVAC people told me, just to see what they say.

[dbt1949]

You must have a large area to cool.
A few years back I had my compressor replaced for $2K. My ductwork isn't worth a shit but my A/C keeps up with it.
Now a days it would probably cost more than the $2K to replace the compressor but not $6K worth.

[Grifman]

My house is just under 1,800 square feet. Also, from what I've read the cost of a new HVAC system in the US is anywhere from $5,000 to $12,000 with an average of $9,000. I think I paid around $4,000 to $5,000 when I replace mine 12 years ago.

[stimpy]

My concern is that the second guy will try to scam me with the same song and dance. This whole experience is making me distrustful. I've used these guys for several years and they have a pretty high customer service rating on Google. It's hard when you really know nothing about an issue and have to rely upon others. But I'm still going to do it. Will be interesting to see what they say. I'll probably do it but not tell them what the other HVAC people told me, just to see what they say.

Most definitely do not tell a company the price or diagnosis another company gave you.
That info is for your use only. If the second is wildly different than the first, get a third.
Most companies will come out and give free estimates.
Use that to your advantage.

[Octavious]

Don't tell the second company anything about what the first one recommended and certainly get another quote. If you need that much repairs you're probably better off replacing it. HVAC people are notorious for being shady as people don't know much about it.

What was the problem with the starter? Was the ac fan not kicking on? A lot of times it's just a capacitor that costs like 20 bucks. I'm the least handy person in the world and replaced mine myself.

[LordMortis]

My concern is that the second guy will try to scam me with the same song and dance.

Odd (to me). My fear would be that I'd call someone else and get the cheap price and find the first guy was right all along and I was too ignorant to tell the difference.

It's hard when you really know nothing about an issue and have to rely upon others

This.

My house is just under 1,800 square feet

1) The starter system on the AC is in bad shape and needs replacing. Fair enough. He’s pricing that at $660.
2) He says that the motor/bearing in the heating/system and going bad and leaking oil. That’s another $1800 to fix. Hmm, that seems a bit high, but maybe.

That doesn't sound unreasonable from my untrained eye, though for $1,800, I'd ask what the difference is between that and replacing the whole unit.

I have no idea who you'd second source duct cleaning repairs to. I'd have a hard time justifying $4000.

First thing I found on furnace needs

https://www.acdirect.com/gas-heat-learn ... calculator

You can kind of google extrapolate from there. I dunno how to judge googling duct repairs. There's a lot there.

[FishPants]

Background first. I’ve used the same HVAC company for several years. Every year they come out and do an inspection of my system and up until now I’ve been pleased. However, after this year’s inspection, I believe they are trying to scam me. And fyi, my system is about 12 years old and will probably need replacing any time now.

After this inspection, the tech said I have the following problems:

1) The starter system on the AC is in bad shape and needs replacing. Fair enough. He’s pricing that at $660.
2) He says that the motor/bearing in the heating/system and going bad and leaking oil. That’s another $1800 to fix. Hmm, that seems a bit high, but maybe.
3) But this is the kicker and where I think the scam is. He claims the problem with the motor bearings is that the air distribution system (fancy term for duct work) is leaking, causing the motor to strain. He also says that it is dirty because of the leaks, putting additional strain on it. He says that they duct work needs cleaning and sealing, and that this would be another $4,000.

Now, that last point seems unlikely to me. First, I’ve gone on online and there are a number of reasons the duct work might need cleaning but this isn’t one of them. Secondly, they come out here every year and now all of a sudden my duct work needs sealing? Does that make any sense?

So I think I am being scammed about the need for duct work cleaning and resealing. Which also makes me wonder about the price on the other items. I’m thinking about getting another HVAC guy out here to look at things and give me a second opinion.

Any expert opinions out there? Thanks.

Ok so first off I am not an expert, but I watched youtube videos - therefore I am almost an HVAC tech

This year on one of the hottest days of the year my wife comments that our central air unit is making a god awful noise. I go look and the fan has stopped turning.

First question: Is your fan not turning on the AC unit? Is it squealing or making unusual sounds?

So I started looking at this, and consulted with some friends that were in the business previously. I was looking at replacing my fan motor ($300 for the part), and looking at youtube videos -- what I found was that 99% of the time (confirmed by friends in HVAC) that the problem is usually the starting capacitor. Think of it as a jump start for the fan blades, it retains charge and when the AC kicks in - the capacitor discharges and starts the fan turning; from there regular voltage can maintain the fan motor.

Ok so let's look up the price for the unit (it's important to buy the exact capacitor you need, so read up on your model and what's required -- Plus make damn sure you understand how to discharge the capacitor in place. It's not hard, but it is 100% necessary). So I called the local Lennox warehouse who showed 250 of them in stock "Sorry Mr Fishpants we don't sell to the public, call your local lennox dealer". Ok... called them, and they estimated $400 for the service call and part!!! Anyways called a friend who had his ticket, and he picked it up for me -- price with tax in $6.32. I then turned off the breaker inside to my AC unit *AND* my furnace, then removed the disconnect outside beside the AC unit (I've had electrical shocks before, and not risking anything). Four screws to remove the panel, and used an insulated screw driver to make a connection between all poles on the capacitor to discharge it (I also validated no voltage remaining with a volt meter). Removed one screw to remove the metal band around the capacitor.

I then moved the three wires from one capacitor to the same spot on the new capacitor, put it back in with the band and closed it up. Put the disconnect back in, turned on the breakers and the AC fired up like a champ. Total cost was $6.32 for the part, $10 in gas to go get it, $20 in beer I drank with the guy that got the part for me, and about 20 minutes max in time spent for replacement.

So that's your "starter system" -- it's one fucking capacitor that costs a few bucks; so before I proceed further - you are being ripped off.

Motor/bearing leaking oil - do you see any oil leaking? Is your furnace making a screaching/grinding noise? Is airflow not moving? If the answer is no -- you are being scammed.

Sealing duct work? Get fucked, that's ridiculous -- if you REALLY want your ducts cleaned that shouldn't cost more than $200 - but that industry in and of itself is a scam. Cleaning your ducts is basically blasting air through it and sucking with a vacuum - you might get a bit of dust, but it sure as hell isn't going to "remove oil" - which isn't going to spray through your duct work anyways. The amount of oil in your bearing is probably a tablespoon at most.

This guy is ripping you off - if you don't have problems, don't even bother calling anyone. My furnace is 23 years old, and it is working fine. I've had to replace a control board once in the middle of winter for a crazy amount of money - but I didn't have much options at the time.

Hope that helps.

[Grifman]

Hope that helps.

That was helpful. The more I've read, the more I'm pretty sure the duct cleaning/sealing is just a scam.

I have another company, highly rated, coming out this afternoon. They are giving me a FREE second opinion, which I find pretty amazing, figured I'd get charged at least a service call. They must make enough money by offering this service that they can afford to do this. I am looking forward to this, should be interesting.

[Octavious]

Ya what Fishpants said is what I was alluding to as well. The big red flag was the 4k for the duct work. I would never let them in my house again after trying to pull that kind of BS.

[malchior]

My house is just under 1,800 square feet. Also, from what I've read the cost of a new HVAC system in the US is anywhere from $5,000 to $12,000 with an average of $9,000. I think I paid around $4,000 to $5,000 when I replace mine 12 years ago.

I replaced my entire system (98% high efficiency gas furnace, 4 ton ac, condenser) about 2 years ago in the People's Republic of NJ for about ~11K for a 2750 square foot home. They didn't even bother looking at ducting. That is the part where I agree that you are best throwing a WTF flare up and get a second opinion. In the sense, that you might even just have someone inspect it without any reference about any of the work recommended. If it is a big problem someone else should notice it.

[LordMortis]

The more I've read, the more I'm pretty sure the duct cleaning/sealing is just a scam.

That was my uneducated assessment that I somehow deleted. They say it's almost always a scam but if you trust(ed) your guys you could be the exception. Because it's such a popular opinion that this is a scam I'd be on high alert and dubious. I just don't know how to be right about it.

[malchior]

I hate to say it but bad times change the calculus on scamming. That there was laddered pricing stands out to me. To the effect that 'Well that duct cleaning sounds like it's too expensive but that other stuff is sorta reasonable'...it is part of getting you to buy something top to bottom that is unnecessary.

[Smoove_B]

Do you have a filtration system installed on the HVAC unit? My old one had a single ionic filter, but my new one has a few different fabric filters I need to change. One is every 90 days and the other is once a year. I would *think* checking those filters might give a general idea as to the overall dust levels your system is dealing with.

Gaps/leaks and dust inside the ducts is definitely a thing but I can't think of a single person I know that's ever had their ducts cleaned.

Add me to the group that thinks you should get a second opinion.

[Jeff V]

Is there a reputable company you can get a quote from? Perhaps someone who advertises on TV a lot and won't be inclined to shenanigans? While it's nice to support a local guy, if they are suffering from reduced business they might be tempted to recommend replacing things they otherwise would have let go.

[LawBeefaroni]

It's hard when you really know nothing about an issue and have to rely upon others.

I'm often thankful that our auto mechanic is next door and our HVAC guy is a across the street.



If you get a second opinion, don't even tell the guy it's a second opinion. They often see what needs to be done and then quote half the job knowing you are probably looking for a lower price.


I'm also struggling how to understand how a leaking duct work would put strain on the motor bearings. If anything it would reduce strain. Unless the leaks are in the intake and/or are somehow causing accumulation of crap. But I don't know anything about HVAC systems.

[Jeff V]

My HVAC guy is also across the street and gets lots of recommendations from the neighborhood. He is not the cheapest option available, however, even with the friends and family discount, the AC preventative maintenance was about 30% more than those advertising in coupon mailers.

[Grifman]

I hate to say it but bad times change the calculus on scamming. That there was laddered pricing stands out to me. To the effect that 'Well that duct cleaning sounds like it's too expensive but that other stuff is sorta reasonable'...it is part of getting you to buy something top to bottom that is unnecessary.

Yeah, it was interesting, definitely laddered. Started off with just fixing the AC starter system (their pre-printed pricing sheet even called it the "Band-Aid" option), then fixing motor/bearings (the "Economy" option), then the duct work, with different pricing depending upon the amount of warranty I wanted ("Standard" to "Premium Plus" options). He tried to get me into making a decision and then defending my choice, rather than him convincing me, which is a classic sales trap. I felt like I was in a car dealership, at which point my spidey sense starting setting off alarm bells (which was already on alert due to the pricing).

[hitbyambulance]

(their pre-printed pricing sheet even called it the "Band-Aid" option), then fixing motor/bearings (the "Economy" option), then the duct work, with different pricing depending upon the amount of warranty I wanted ("Standard" to "Premium Plus" options)

this right here is shady in several ways.

[malchior]

(their pre-printed pricing sheet even called it the "Band-Aid" option), then fixing motor/bearings (the "Economy" option), then the duct work, with different pricing depending upon the amount of warranty I wanted ("Standard" to "Premium Plus" options)

this right here is shady in several ways.

Wait...there was material addressing the *exact problems* he says he found in your system? Or were these in those categories (along with other problems)? Yeah...that isn't great. And it was tied to warranties? Getting worse. A car dealer is a good comparison. Probably the slimiest used car dealer. I'm sure they would have moved on to 'favorable credit terms' next. Ugh.

[Scuzz]

My house is 27 years old and we are still on the original HVAC unit. Seems to me 12 years is pretty short.

Duct work/cleaning is rarely worth the money and what they quoted is a joke.

Never tell another company what your previous quoted were, unless you are buying new.

[pr0ner]

My house is 27 years old and we are still on the original HVAC unit. Seems to me 12 years is pretty short.

Duct work/cleaning is rarely worth the money and what they quoted is a joke.

Never tell another company what your previous quoted were, unless you are buying new.

The internet will tell you a new HVAC will only last 10-20 years. Feels like, in some ways, anything over 10 is living on borrowed time.

The place I bought last year still has its original HVAC. York AC and gas furnace. 20 years and kicking for now, though I am sure a new system would be far more efficient.

[Daehawk]

Sorry cant help. I only have a pair of $150 window AC units. One on each end of the house. If I run them 24 a day then my power bill goes up maybe $70. Im guessing here. I usually use both in the day if its 85+ and turn the far end one off at night. Only run the bedroom one this PC is in a lot more. And it not all the time. The other day I had it off a lot too.

[Scuzz]

My house is 27 years old and we are still on the original HVAC unit. Seems to me 12 years is pretty short.

Duct work/cleaning is rarely worth the money and what they quoted is a joke.

Never tell another company what your previous quoted were, unless you are buying new.

The internet will tell you a new HVAC will only last 10-20 years. Feels like, in some ways, anything over 10 is living on borrowed time.

The place I bought last year still has its original HVAC. York AC and gas furnace. 20 years and kicking for now, though I am sure a new system would be far more efficient.

I do think we bought some extra years thru the way we use it. We keep the AC at 81, we have ceiling fans in every room and a whole house fan for cooler evenings. And a fireplace insert for the winter.

[Grifman]

(their pre-printed pricing sheet even called it the "Band-Aid" option), then fixing motor/bearings (the "Economy" option), then the duct work, with different pricing depending upon the amount of warranty I wanted ("Standard" to "Premium Plus" options)

this right here is shady in several ways.

Wait...there was material addressing the *exact problems* he says he found in your system? Or were these in those categories (along with other problems)? Yeah...that isn't great. And it was tied to warranties? Getting worse. A car dealer is a good comparison. Probably the slimiest used car dealer. I'm sure they would have moved on to 'favorable credit terms' next. Ugh.

These were categories, not the exact problem.

[Grifman]

So the second guy just finished - and found absolutely nothing. I then showed him the proposed work ticket from the other guys and he just shook his head. Didn’t know what they meant by the AC “starting system” but said other than the compressor and motor in the AC unit, there was the capacitor, so he was guessing that was what they meant by “starter unit”. It was a little rusty but it was working fine and it was within the correct parameters. Said he saw nothing wrong with the blower motor, no signs of oil. Even went back and looked at everything based upon their description, rechecking and didn’t see anything. I was being scammed. And now I am promptly changing HVAC companies.

[LordMortis]

[Zaxxon]

Your description of how the sales pitch went down sure sounds shady to me.

My house is just under 1,800 square feet. Also, from what I've read the cost of a new HVAC system in the US is anywhere from $5,000 to $12,000 with an average of $9,000. I think I paid around $4,000 to $5,000 when I replace mine 12 years ago.

I replaced my entire system (98% high efficiency gas furnace, 4 ton ac, condenser) about 2 years ago in the People's Republic of NJ for about ~11K for a 2750 square foot home. They didn't even bother looking at ducting. That is the part where I agree that you are best throwing a WTF flare up and get a second opinion. In the sense, that you might even just have someone inspect it without any reference about any of the work recommended. If it is a big problem someone else should notice it.

A lot of this, too. If I'm reading your post right, Grif, they are suggesting that you pay them $4k + $1800 + $660 = $6460 for maintenance work on a 12-year old AC unit (and the associated duct work).

That's bananas. Granted most of that is duct work, but there's no way I'd be spending more than a few hundred bucks on a 12-year old AC unit. I quoted malchior because I also replaced my system fairly recently for about $11k. That was for a new super-efficient AC/heat pump and HE furnace. If I owned an older system and had maintenance bills anywhere approaching 4 digits, I'd be thinking long and hard about biting the bullet and replacing.

At the very least, I agree that a solid 2nd opinion is needed.

[Skinypupy]

Glad you were able to find that out before paying anything.

I was being scammed. And now I am promptly changing HVAC companies.

That first company really swung for the fences on that one, didn't they? I assume you're going to let them know?

[Zaxxon]

So the second guy just finished - and found absolutely nothing. I then showed him the proposed work ticket from the other guys and he just shook his head. Didn’t know what they meant by the AC “starting system” but said other than the compressor and motor in the AC unit, there was the capacitor, so he was guessing that was what they meant by “starter unit”. It was a little rusty but it was working fine and it was within the correct parameters. Said he saw nothing wrong with the blower motor, no signs of oil. Even went back and looked at everything based upon their description, rechecking and didn’t see anything. I was being scammed. And now I am promptly changing HVAC companies.

I see this was posted while I worked on my reply. Glad to hear you're not getting scammed anymore!

[Grifman]

The “new guy” even took me to the AC unit and opened it up and showed me the capacitor and retested it right in front of me, then took me to the motor and showed that to me. I should have had the first guy do this but I just wasn’t prepared at the time, was sort of stunned by what he told me.

[Grifman]

Glad you were able to find that out before paying anything.

I was being scammed. And now I am promptly changing HVAC companies.

That first company really swung for the fences on that one, didn't they? I assume you're going to let them know?

I’m not sure what I am going to do other than cancel my maintenance contract with them. I really don’t want to have a conversation with them. I may send a letter to them just letting them know what happened.

[Skinypupy]

I may send a letter to them just letting them know what happened.

That's typically the route I go. A general "just want to let you know you lost an established client due to your shady business practices", and avoids any confrontation and/or frantic backtracking on their end.

[dbt1949]

Whenever I've done business with a scammer (unbeknown to me at the time) and I say I don't want to do business with them and they ask me why ,I say "Because you're a scammer." I get right into their face.

[LordMortis]

Glad you were able to find that out before paying anything.

I was being scammed. And now I am promptly changing HVAC companies.

That first company really swung for the fences on that one, didn't they? I assume you're going to let them know?

I’m not sure what I am going to do other than cancel my maintenance contract with them. I really don’t want to have a conversation with them. I may send a letter to them just letting them know what happened.

I wouldn't, but that's me. I would make the effort to tell other people why they lost my business but I have no obligation to them. It's not like they'd get me back because it was a misunderstanding. So it's one part I'm lazy and one part I'm passive aggressive.

[stimpy]

Is there any chance it was just this particular guy trying to upsell you?
Maybe if you notify the company that they have someone out there that represents them doing this, they'll appreciate it and take action.
It seems up to this point you've been happy with them.
Might be a new guy trying to score points or something.

[Grifman]

Is there any chance it was just this particular guy trying to upsell you?
Maybe if you notify the company that they have someone out there that represents them doing this, they'll appreciate it and take action.
It seems up to this point you've been happy with them.
Might be a new guy trying to score points or something.

Could be, but IMO, most of the stuff like this that occurs comes from the top down, either explicitly or implicitly and is winked at by management. And besides, they should know better than using the duct cleaning thing. That should rarely ever be needed and the reason he gave for it isn't even one of the reasons for which you normally get ducts cleaned. And even if there were leaks, from all I have read that doesn't really stress the motor and cause as he claimed.

I'll probably send a letter and then see what they say.