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Never thought I'd be typing this

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Smoove_B
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Re: Never thought I'd be typing this

Post by Smoove_B »

I understand. I'm just saying, I've had similar conversations (eerily similar) with about half a dozen people over the last 20 years and not a single one - not one has ever said, "Yeah, I definitely spoke to a lawyer too soon - that was a huge mistake." Instead it's always (100% of the time) been, "I really should have spoken to a lawyer when this all started." Every. Time.

It's not about trust, it's not about punishing someone. It's not about "setting a trap". It's about understanding the legal implications of decisions you're making.

I only provide it now as it's been the single recurring thorn that's been reported back to me when the topic comes up (as it apparently does).

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Re: Never thought I'd be typing this

Post by hitbyambulance »

MHS wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 3:43 pm

Or, you know...listen to her and believe her when she says it's about the cleaning. Men say women don't tell them what's wrong, and that's true, we often don't because we're societally conditioned to not verbalize our wants and needs. But when we DO, and then the person we are verbalizing them to thinks that can't be it, it's even worse. Picture the cartoon..."If only she would tell me what she wants!" "I want you to clean and help and not treat me like my time isn't as valuable as yours." "WHY won't she tell me, I guess there's no way to know!" :roll: Maybe it really ISN'T about the cleaning and that's just a symptom, but until something else comes out (and don't assume it will), please take her at her word. Feeling taking advantage of and unappreciated really can be enough to end a marriage, as can feeling patronized. Having to do the bulk of the cleaning, childcare, and social obligations (holiday shopping, wrapping, cards) is hands down the biggest gripe among every single one of my partnered female friends and relatives.

And of course, it's about the cleaning but also SO MUCH more. Every time she's cleaning and you're leaving her to clean, she's wondering why she's not worth the effort to you. She's wondering why someone who promised a partnership isn't being equitable and fair with the division of labor. She's wondering why, when you both work, she's continuing to do more work once the "work day" ends and how you can see all of that and be ok with it if you supposedly love her and want to make her life better, which is something you should do if you love someone. And she's angry now because when you do it, you're acknowledging that you are capable of seeing what you should have been seeing all this time, and doing it, but you didn't, because it wasn't important enough to you to be equitable, which makes her feel like shit AND she's also wondering (and probably assuming, because I doubt this hadn't come up once in the last 20+ years) if you'll fall right back into old habits once you're not scared of her leaving you.

i'm going to +1 this. it's not the 1950's anymore (or 1940's, or 1960's, or 1970's, or 1980s', or 1990's, or 2000's, or)

also want to add that one really needs to eliminate the 'leaving emotional labor to women to handle' thing that has been the thing since forever and ever. read up on this and educate yourself.

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RunningMn9
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Re: Never thought I'd be typing this

Post by RunningMn9 »

MHS wrote:Or, you know...listen to her and believe her when she says it's about the cleaning.
That goes without saying. If someone tells you they want out because of X, Y, and Z - then I think *at a minimum* X, Y, and Z need to be resolved.
MHS wrote:Men say women don't tell them what's wrong, and that's true, we often don't because we're societally conditioned to not verbalize our wants and needs.
This. Women often don’t, because they are conditioned not to. Humans often don’t, because we generally aren’t taught how to do that, or we are sometimes bad at it. Or we lack the language for it (although that’s a male-typical problem, not a female-typical problem).

As a human female, my money was on there being more to the story that hasn’t been verbalized yet.
MHS wrote:But when we DO, and then the person we are verbalizing them to thinks that can't be it, it's even worse.
I cannot stress enough that I was not advising to ignore these clear messages. My advice was just to not assume that cleaning was going to fix this relationship.
MHS wrote:Feeling taking advantage of and unappreciated really can be enough to end a marriage, as can feeling patronized. Having to do the bulk of the cleaning, childcare, and social obligations (holiday shopping, wrapping, cards) is hands down the biggest gripe among every single one of my partnered female friends and relatives.
I can definitely see that. Maybe I see that differently, where the root issue is feeling taken advantage of and feeling unappreciated, and the symptom is having to do the bulk of the cleaning, childcare, etc.?

I simply meant that starting to clean and help isn’t going to make someone feel appreciated. Maybe less taken advantage of, but my experience with people is that emotions strong enough to take action to end a marriage aren’t going to just go away because of a possibly temporary change in behavior.
MHS wrote:And of course, it's about the cleaning but also SO MUCH more.
How come you’re allowed to say that it’s about so much more, and I’m not? ;)

I will say that your insight is almost certainly much more valuable than mine. I don’t have the capacity to view things from a female perspective.
And in banks across the world
Christians, Moslems, Hindus, Jews
And every other race, creed, colour, tint or hue
Get down on their knees and pray
The raccoon and the groundhog neatly
Make up bags of change
But the monkey in the corner
Well he's slowly drifting out of range

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MHS
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Re: Never thought I'd be typing this

Post by MHS »

RunningMn9 wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 4:13 pm
behavior.
MHS wrote:And of course, it's about the cleaning but also SO MUCH more.
How come you’re allowed to say that it’s about so much more, and I’m not? ;)

I will say that your insight is almost certainly much more valuable than mine. I don’t have the capacity to view things from a female perspective.
How come you assume that my comments mean you're not? :) ;)

We're truly not disagreeing with each other. I'm just throwing a big DANGER Will Robinson on anyone making assumptions. You're not wrong. At this point, it's about her resentment at least as much as the cleaning, and that's going to take a lot of time and effort to deal with. But if she's talking about the cleaning, then the cleaning is where that starts.

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em2nought
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Re: Never thought I'd be typing this

Post by em2nought »

MHS wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 4:18 pm
At this point, it's about her resentment at least as much as the cleaning, and that's going to take a lot of time and effort to deal with. But if she's talking about the cleaning, then the cleaning is where that starts.
If he demonstrates that he could have been doing the cleaning all along that might make the resentment even worse. He probably needs to go above and beyond at this point. Do what she's asking for and more.
Waiting for the tide to bring me a sail.

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MHS
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Re: Never thought I'd be typing this

Post by MHS »

em2nought wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 4:30 pm
MHS wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 4:18 pm
At this point, it's about her resentment at least as much as the cleaning, and that's going to take a lot of time and effort to deal with. But if she's talking about the cleaning, then the cleaning is where that starts.
If he demonstrates that he could have been doing the cleaning all along that might make the resentment even worse. He probably needs to go above and beyond at this point. Do what she's asking for and more.
It definitely makes it worse. It's like someone who only does nice things in front of other people. It shows that they absolutely know it should be done, and that they care about impressing those people, but don't care about impressing or taking care of you.

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Re: Never thought I'd be typing this

Post by Pyperkub »

msduncan wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 12:06 pm
Well... We are going to see what the counselor says. I was completely willing (though in grief) about leaving for 30 days. Heck...I even lined up a place. I texted it to her mid afternoon that I had a place. I didn't mope. I didn't seem upset. I just said I'd found a place.

I'm not sure it's a good idea for me to suggest we stick to the 30 days? It certainly wasn't me who called it off. Maybe the counselor will listen to her plan and strongly suggest the 30 days anyway. If she does that - then the wife will likely agree to it.
One small comment about Mrs. Kub's and my experience with one Marriage counselor.

One counselor we went to seemed to make our marriage issues worse. His idea of counseling appeared to be an airing of grievances repeated weekly, with little guidance/counseling/advice. As such, it pretty much seemed like the counselor was encouraging us to find every little thing wrong with each other and turn them into big things, and reinforce any grievance we remembered (even if forgiven) over the entire course of our Marriage, especially any grievance we had moved on about. After each weekly session we felt worse and worse about our future together frequently crying on each other's shoulders in the parking lot outside, until finally we figured out that this was an extremely unhealthy counselor for our Marriage.

YMMV. But I guess I'd say that if you and Mrs. msd don't feel like a particular counselor is working for you (and are in agreement with good communication), then shop around.
There are three ways to not tell the truth: lies, damned lies, and statistics.

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Re: Never thought I'd be typing this

Post by msduncan »

MHS wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 4:32 pm
em2nought wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 4:30 pm
MHS wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 4:18 pm
At this point, it's about her resentment at least as much as the cleaning, and that's going to take a lot of time and effort to deal with. But if she's talking about the cleaning, then the cleaning is where that starts.
If he demonstrates that he could have been doing the cleaning all along that might make the resentment even worse. He probably needs to go above and beyond at this point. Do what she's asking for and more.
It definitely makes it worse. It's like someone who only does nice things in front of other people. It shows that they absolutely know it should be done, and that they care about impressing those people, but don't care about impressing or taking care of you.
First of all -- I truly appreciate you responding in this thread MHS. It is invaluable to have a woman's perspective on this. I value it greatly.

You are correct that for the first 2 weeks she was furious that I was cleaning and helping and going to the store and prioritizing her. The third week she started saying that it was 'weird' and 'confusing' and that it made her angry because I could have been doing it all along, but repeated that it was weird. This past week I've noticed the anger rapidly declining.... it's now what she describes as 'the twilight zone'. Today she actually said it was infuriating and wonderful at the same time. Despite all of this hanging over us for the past 4 weeks -- we have been communicating honestly and frankly. She tells me she's mad about it, I tell her that even if it makes her mad I had to make the changes immediately and relentlessly to change my ingrained behaviors, and she acknowledges that as a valid reason. The only time I've seen week 1 anger since weeks 1 and 2 was during that counseling session. Then she dropped the 'no contact for 30 days' bomb and something shifted. I could feel it.

She got home an hour ago to get ready for her overnight trip. I had packed her electronics and her medicine in little bags. I told her that I HEAR her, and that the tether is CUT. I told her that I wasn't going to text or call her and that if she needed me that she can reach out and we can text or talk then. I also told her that I was going to make sure the kids didn't bug her. She said she would just ignore them if needed. I told her "if I call you -- answer it. Because the only reason I'm going to bug you is if there is a big time emergency." She appreciated it. She truly did. She gave me a big hug, thanked me for the help, peck kissed me on the lips, and drove off with a smile.
It's 109 first team All-Americans.
It's a college football record 61 bowl appearances.
It's 34 bowl victories.
It's 24 Southeastern Conference Championships.
It's 15 National Championships.

At some places they play football. At Alabama we live it.

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Re: Never thought I'd be typing this

Post by msduncan »

Also I think it's worth mentioning here -- All of this has shifted me greatly in other ways too. Most of you have interacted with me in R&P over the years. All at once I came to realize how much the world has dimmed my light. I used to be a fun, cheerful, optimistic person. I can still be that person -- but the world has made it less frequent, made me less optimistic, made me less friendly. I'm getting my light back. I can feel it. I've been shutting out news, negative social media stuff, etc.... and just trying to rekindle my light these past weeks. She called me yesterday on the way home saying she was stuck in traffic -- I replied "I'm sure it clears up in a mile or two and you will fly home!" and she responded "you sure are optimistic lately."
It's 109 first team All-Americans.
It's a college football record 61 bowl appearances.
It's 34 bowl victories.
It's 24 Southeastern Conference Championships.
It's 15 National Championships.

At some places they play football. At Alabama we live it.

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Re: Never thought I'd be typing this

Post by Pyperkub »

Fingers crossed msd!
There are three ways to not tell the truth: lies, damned lies, and statistics.

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RunningMn9
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Re: Never thought I'd be typing this

Post by RunningMn9 »

MHS wrote:We're truly not disagreeing with each other. I'm just throwing a big DANGER Will Robinson on anyone making assumptions. You're not wrong. At this point, it's about her resentment at least as much as the cleaning, and that's going to take a lot of time and effort to deal with. But if she's talking about the cleaning, then the cleaning is where that starts.
That sounds wise to me.

My initial goal really was just to try to help MSD focus on her, and what she needs, whether she’s saying it fully or not. I think the trap that many people in his shoes fall into is to try to get back to something, to some moment where at least there was a perception that both of them were happy.

They need to work towards some new moment where they are both happy, even if it means they cannot remain as they are. Right now, that’s going to be very difficult for MSD, because I imagine it’s near impossible to envision being happy without her.

But, if the focus is on the notion that his affection for her truly means that he wants her to be happy - then his focus has to be on that, and what she needs going forward, and hopefully that includes him in some other capacity than the situation he was in 27 days ago.

It’s probably a good time for MSD to evaluate himself as well, to make sure that what he was feeling was happiness, and not just the comfort of a routine. He deserves happiness too.
And in banks across the world
Christians, Moslems, Hindus, Jews
And every other race, creed, colour, tint or hue
Get down on their knees and pray
The raccoon and the groundhog neatly
Make up bags of change
But the monkey in the corner
Well he's slowly drifting out of range

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Zaxxon
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Re: Never thought I'd be typing this

Post by Zaxxon »

Lots of good stuff being posted here. Thanks, all, and best of luck, MSD.

And I'm going to check out Crucial Conversations.

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Re: Never thought I'd be typing this

Post by msduncan »

lol well she's already breaking the tether rule for her trip. She sent me two videos, a picture, and several text messages already. :p
It's 109 first team All-Americans.
It's a college football record 61 bowl appearances.
It's 34 bowl victories.
It's 24 Southeastern Conference Championships.
It's 15 National Championships.

At some places they play football. At Alabama we live it.

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Re: Never thought I'd be typing this

Post by gbasden »

msduncan wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 7:43 pm
lol well she's already breaking the tether rule for her trip. She sent me two videos, a picture, and several text messages already. :p
I would think as long as it's her that is initiating the communication it will be fine. I would guess that she doesn't want to feel like she's always on call.

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msduncan
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Re: Never thought I'd be typing this

Post by msduncan »

gbasden wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 7:47 pm
msduncan wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 7:43 pm
lol well she's already breaking the tether rule for her trip. She sent me two videos, a picture, and several text messages already. :p
I would think as long as it's her that is initiating the communication it will be fine. I would guess that she doesn't want to feel like she's always on call.
Exactly right. I made it clear before she left that any comms will be initiated by her. Her tether is CUT! If she wants to text/call/etc I'm here but there is NO NEED. The kids and I have GOT THIS.
It's 109 first team All-Americans.
It's a college football record 61 bowl appearances.
It's 34 bowl victories.
It's 24 Southeastern Conference Championships.
It's 15 National Championships.

At some places they play football. At Alabama we live it.

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Pyperkub
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Re: Never thought I'd be typing this

Post by Pyperkub »

gbasden wrote:
msduncan wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 7:43 pm
lol well she's already breaking the tether rule for her trip. She sent me two videos, a picture, and several text messages already. Image
I would think as long as it's her that is initiating the communication it will be fine. I would guess that she doesn't want to feel like she's always on call.
It also seems like really hopeful news!
There are three ways to not tell the truth: lies, damned lies, and statistics.

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Re: Never thought I'd be typing this

Post by Blackhawk »

This is an anecdote. It is about me. I'm only bringing it up because there were a few comments that tickled the corner of my mind where it is kept. This isn't advice. My only intention is to give you one more data point as you figure things out.

I was born. I was a kid. I graduated high school, and within months was married with a kid on the way. I was a husband. I was a father. I got divorced, lived with a friend for just a few months, then found Michelle and we were engaged within weeks. I was a husband again, and then a father. Then Michelle filed for divorce (for completely unrelated reasons.) I was absolutely miserable. It took me over a year to get back on my feet. And it was ten years before I got into another relationship. What's relevant is what happened between year one and year ten. It showed in my personality. I was frustrated, I was irritable, and I was unhappy, and I didn't know why. But things got better, and then they got a lot better. The 'why' was only relevant when I looked backward.

I realized that I was a kid, then a husband, then a father, then a husband, then a father. Not once in my (at the time) 34 years had I ever been anything else. When I was suddenly on my own, I had absolutely no idea what that meant. I had no idea who I was except from the perspective of being a kid, a husband, a father. My whole identity and sense of myself was built around other people. After I'd spent some time on my own, I discovered who I was. My own personality, my own purpose, my own sense of self. That sense of dissatisfaction I'd had was because I had no idea who Duane was, and that's a huge hollow in your mind. It took removing all of those other elements for me to discover both the problem and the solution. And looking back, I can absolutely see that I was craving that opportunity while I was still married, but lacked the self awareness to realize it. Had I, I might have craved the kind of space that was instead thrust on me. And I might have been able to find a way to discover it without needing to be completely alone.

Ok, that was a little rambling. I hope that there is something in there that has some relevance. Maybe something that will help.
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MHS
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Re: Never thought I'd be typing this

Post by MHS »

msduncan wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 5:48 pm
MHS wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 4:32 pm
em2nought wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 4:30 pm
MHS wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 4:18 pm
At this point, it's about her resentment at least as much as the cleaning, and that's going to take a lot of time and effort to deal with. But if she's talking about the cleaning, then the cleaning is where that starts.
If he demonstrates that he could have been doing the cleaning all along that might make the resentment even worse. He probably needs to go above and beyond at this point. Do what she's asking for and more.
It definitely makes it worse. It's like someone who only does nice things in front of other people. It shows that they absolutely know it should be done, and that they care about impressing those people, but don't care about impressing or taking care of you.
First of all -- I truly appreciate you responding in this thread MHS. It is invaluable to have a woman's perspective on this. I value it greatly.

You are correct that for the first 2 weeks she was furious that I was cleaning and helping and going to the store and prioritizing her. The third week she started saying that it was 'weird' and 'confusing' and that it made her angry because I could have been doing it all along, but repeated that it was weird. This past week I've noticed the anger rapidly declining.... it's now what she describes as 'the twilight zone'. Today she actually said it was infuriating and wonderful at the same time. Despite all of this hanging over us for the past 4 weeks -- we have been communicating honestly and frankly. She tells me she's mad about it, I tell her that even if it makes her mad I had to make the changes immediately and relentlessly to change my ingrained behaviors, and she acknowledges that as a valid reason. The only time I've seen week 1 anger since weeks 1 and 2 was during that counseling session. Then she dropped the 'no contact for 30 days' bomb and something shifted. I could feel it.

She got home an hour ago to get ready for her overnight trip. I had packed her electronics and her medicine in little bags. I told her that I HEAR her, and that the tether is CUT. I told her that I wasn't going to text or call her and that if she needed me that she can reach out and we can text or talk then. I also told her that I was going to make sure the kids didn't bug her. She said she would just ignore them if needed. I told her "if I call you -- answer it. Because the only reason I'm going to bug you is if there is a big time emergency." She appreciated it. She truly did. She gave me a big hug, thanked me for the help, peck kissed me on the lips, and drove off with a smile.
Yeah, please don't think that I'm trying to say that her anger and resentment won't eventually go away. It's just that it's probably been festering for a long, long time for her to make such a drastic decision, so it's not going to go away as quickly as you might hope. The anger and mistrust versus appreciation may ebb and flow as you both find your way into patterns that work. It sounds like you're going into things with eyes wide open and with a genuine intention to work together as partners, so I think that's great, and I'm really rooting for you both.

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Re: Never thought I'd be typing this

Post by Smoove_B »

Blackhawk wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 9:18 pm
stuff
Your anecdote reminds me of one of my favorite Zen stories, which I think also has relevance here:
One day a young Buddhist on his journey home came to the banks of a wide river. Staring hopelessly at the great obstacle in front of him, he pondered for hours on just how to cross such a wide barrier.

Just as he was about to give up his pursuit to continue his journey he saw a great teacher on the other side of the river. The young Buddhist yells over to the teacher, “Oh wise one, can you tell me how to get to the other side of this river”?

The teacher ponders for a moment looks up and down the river and yells back, “My son, you are on the other side”.

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Re: Never thought I'd be typing this

Post by RunningMn9 »

I appreciate reading that Blackhawk. The kind of self-reflection that happens now, to look back with understanding over WHY your past unfolded as it it, and finally understanding what might have been wrong or right.

So many people are in spots like that (and I think it’s possible that your story is relevant to this thread).

My wife and I are on the verge of an empty nest, and it has had dramatically different impacts on us because of the roles we’ve played over the years. Suddenly having to discover who you are again after almost two decades, that’s no joke.

Many people lose themselves in the role they are playing without thinking about it.
And in banks across the world
Christians, Moslems, Hindus, Jews
And every other race, creed, colour, tint or hue
Get down on their knees and pray
The raccoon and the groundhog neatly
Make up bags of change
But the monkey in the corner
Well he's slowly drifting out of range

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Buatha
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Re: Never thought I'd be typing this

Post by Buatha »

RunningMn9 wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 9:56 pm
My wife and I are on the verge of an empty nest, and it has had dramatically different impacts on us because of the roles we’ve played over the years. Suddenly having to discover who you are again after almost two decades, that’s no joke.

Many people lose themselves in the role they are playing without thinking about it.
This is gold right here. At that point (which is where we were), it's a joint effort to get back to each other. The hope is that both parties feel the effort is worth it.

And, here is some Chris Rock wisdom for some levity {strong language...duh]:
Roles
"Some people say never...I just say no"

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RunningMn9
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Re: Never thought I'd be typing this

Post by RunningMn9 »

Yeah, it’s been very different for us. For me, my role as my kids grew up was working full time, coaching my son in baseball, basketball and football, and carting my daughter all over creation for dance. When me son got to high school, he dropped everything but travel soccer, so I drove him to all practices and games.

As he got older, that ended and I suddenly had a lot of free time. I made the mistake of using that extra time for work. That opened the door to the nightmare that was coming.

My wife though had stayed at home to raise them. They needed her for everything and she was their world and they were hers. As they’ve gotten older, and more independent, that has left quite the vacuum. I still went to work every day, it was easy for me to have friends that had nothing to do with the kids. I had friends from coaching but as those activities died down and we drifted apart, I still had my regular friends and work friends.

As the kids have gotten older and play dates go away, if most of your friends are tied to the kids, that causes another vacuum as that starts to go away.

Being an adult is goddamn hard.

I don’t know where MSD and his wife are at in terms of this stage, but if they’re approaching it, it’s just another thing to consider that maybe they need to take stock in. But it always comes back to the same thing. Both partners deserve to be happy. Just keep focusing on that goal - what do I need to be happy? What does she need to be happy. Eyes always on the prize.
And in banks across the world
Christians, Moslems, Hindus, Jews
And every other race, creed, colour, tint or hue
Get down on their knees and pray
The raccoon and the groundhog neatly
Make up bags of change
But the monkey in the corner
Well he's slowly drifting out of range

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Re: Never thought I'd be typing this

Post by Blackhawk »

My kids are 16 and 18, so it's right around the corner for us, too. Luckily, until a couple of years ago when we got back together, Michelle and I did one week on, one week off (we'd alternate weeks with the kids.) That gave us each time to discover something about ourselves beyond being "a parent."
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Re: Never thought I'd be typing this

Post by Smoove_B »

RunningMn9 wrote:
Sat Jun 27, 2020 4:12 pm
Being an adult is goddamn hard.
Move along just to make it through.

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Re: Never thought I'd be typing this

Post by RunningMn9 »

Smoove_B wrote:
Sat Jun 27, 2020 5:43 pm
RunningMn9 wrote:
Sat Jun 27, 2020 4:12 pm
Being an adult is goddamn hard.
Move along just to make it through.
Had no idea that's what that song is about. :)
And in banks across the world
Christians, Moslems, Hindus, Jews
And every other race, creed, colour, tint or hue
Get down on their knees and pray
The raccoon and the groundhog neatly
Make up bags of change
But the monkey in the corner
Well he's slowly drifting out of range

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Jaymon
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Re: Never thought I'd be typing this

Post by Jaymon »

Perhaps I have some insight here. I see discussion about helping out around the house, and possibly, "thats not what she really means".

It sounds like in your family, she has been stay at home mother for many years, taking care of children, housework, cooking and such. Thats not a bad thing. but its work, and its hard work, and it never changes. (laundry truly is the neverending story) And after however many years, she is tired. Thats not unusual.

But there is stuff you can do. its more than just the cleaning you are doing now, thats just a symptom. its a behavior change thats needed. its changing habits on the household to prevent housework from piling up. Its other members of the household taking on housework, without being asked. if she has to ask "somebody please wash the dishes" then thats still work for her, other folks need to step up and do without being asked. And, its showing appreciation for the things she does. And not just mothers day and birthday. Remember to thank her for cleaning the house, or cooking dinner, or doing laundry, or any of the other thousands of things.

I don't know the details of your household like do any children still live at home etc. But everybody who lives there needs to step up and take some of the load off her, and not just temp. It needs to be a behavior change to keep it that way. So tell her you appreciate her with words, and then demonstrate you appreciate her with your actions, and then show her you mean it with permanent behavior changes.
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Re: Never thought I'd be typing this

Post by Default »

I have nothing to offer but whatever type emotional/virtual hugs I can give.
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msduncan
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Re: Never thought I'd be typing this

Post by msduncan »

Update:

After a few really good days, we had a bad round-about rehashing the same anger and issues on Sunday when we were trying to get a plan together for the counseling session on Monday. The day (Sunday) ended with her just saying 'everything is going to be ok. We will figure this out. etc'. She even ordered me one of those replacement wedding bands (rubberized) that she bought on our beach trip that evening.

On Monday, our counseling session went really well. Though she reiterates where she's at (wants to leave), she suggested that she move to the separate in-law/pool house for the 30 day separation rather than me leave completely. The counselor agreed to this, and said we need to limit contact. Any contact is scheduled (like Church on Sundays) and we don't discuss anything -- just keep it light. Mainly though is the goal to limit communication. The counselor says she is in a 'fight or flight' mode. This separation will hopefully break that, allow us to do some self-work, and then come back in a healthy way. It will allow me to work on my ability to listen, ability to hear her, and ability to allow her to flourish without me. It will allow her to deal with her anger, improve her communication skills, and find a separate identity.

After this session, we went to lunch and had another of those extremely productive and positive conversations like we had last Wednesday. She got on Amazon on her phone and ordered us both a bunch of books to read during this time. 5 Love Languages, Crucial Conversations, Crucial Accountability, Anger management, and some planners and journals so we can journal our month apart. We've helped each other get ready for this thing that starts tomorrow.

So starting tomorrow morning I will kiss her goodbye except for one or two scheduled times for a month. When this is over we will be going right into a Disney vacation assuming COVID doesn't cancel it. She is where she is -- but she's putting in the good faith effort for this. In that respect she is light years from where she was when she walked in May 30th and wanted to immediately leave and NOT go to counseling. We are also going to schedule individual counseling for each of us immediately.
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It's 15 National Championships.

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Unagi
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Re: Never thought I'd be typing this

Post by Unagi »

msduncan wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 12:26 pm

So starting tomorrow morning I will kiss her goodbye except for one or two scheduled times for a month. When this is over we will be going right into a Disney vacation assuming COVID doesn't cancel it.
That sounds like a very rapid 'back to normal' plan... the trip to Disney on the very heals of the Time-Out ? I'd think the therapist would advise to clear that now... so that there isn't a looming 'deadline' / family / financial commitment sitting at the end of the Time-Out, but maybe that's just my thinking.

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Re: Never thought I'd be typing this

Post by El Guapo »

msduncan wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 12:26 pm
The day (Sunday) ended with her just saying 'everything is going to be ok. We will figure this out. etc'.

Though she reiterates where she's at (wants to leave)
I guess I don't totally understand what your wife's objectives are right now. She still wants to leave, so what exactly is it that you're figuring out? Does she see this as working out terms of separation? Or is her view "As of now I want to leave, but I haven't totally ruled out that we can fix things to the point where I'll decide to stay"?

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Re: Never thought I'd be typing this

Post by Blackhawk »

Or maybe she's not entirely sure herself. Sometimes you know something is wrong and needs to change, but the end goal isn't clear.
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Re: Never thought I'd be typing this

Post by dbt1949 »

I used to think I understood women.
Now I know better.
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msduncan
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Re: Never thought I'd be typing this

Post by msduncan »

Unagi wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 1:49 pm
msduncan wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 12:26 pm

So starting tomorrow morning I will kiss her goodbye except for one or two scheduled times for a month. When this is over we will be going right into a Disney vacation assuming COVID doesn't cancel it.
That sounds like a very rapid 'back to normal' plan... the trip to Disney on the very heals of the Time-Out ? I'd think the therapist would advise to clear that now... so that there isn't a looming 'deadline' / family / financial commitment sitting at the end of the Time-Out, but maybe that's just my thinking.
This is a trip rescheduled three times and she was very firmly in the 'let's go' opinion. In fact we paid more just a week and a half ago to maintain the trip because we were required to upgrade to a deluxe resort in order to go.
It's 109 first team All-Americans.
It's a college football record 61 bowl appearances.
It's 34 bowl victories.
It's 24 Southeastern Conference Championships.
It's 15 National Championships.

At some places they play football. At Alabama we live it.

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Re: Never thought I'd be typing this

Post by hepcat »

dbt1949 wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 8:22 pm
I used to think I understood women.
Now I know better.
I once spent 4 years with a woman I thought I was going to marry decades ago...and she dumped my ass for wearing a baseball cap in a grocery store one day. I kid you not.
I beat a camel to death with a monkey. Can I do that?
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Re: Never thought I'd be typing this

Post by pr0ner »

hepcat wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 9:12 am
dbt1949 wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 8:22 pm
I used to think I understood women.
Now I know better.
I once spent 4 years with a woman I thought I was going to marry decades ago...and she dumped my ass for wearing a baseball cap in a grocery store one day. I kid you not.
Wat?
Hodor.

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Re: Never thought I'd be typing this

Post by hepcat »

It was an upscale grocery store in Akron, Ohio. We had gone there to get some staples for the evening and when we got back to the apartment she lived in, she turned to me and told me that she didn't think she could be with someone who thought it was okay to wear a hat indoors.

Now, I'm sure there was more to the issue than just that. And she did have a history of depression (having had to drop out of Penn State for a year at one point due to a breakdown), but to this day I still get razzed by friends back home over it. The most annoying line was from my friend Rizzo who always would tell people that she had dumped me because "Susan made eye contact with another guy in a parking lot".

cue sad trombone
I beat a camel to death with a monkey. Can I do that?
-Mr Bismarck

You have to whack a few rabbits before you are ready to punch a camel.
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Re: Never thought I'd be typing this

Post by Jeff V »

You expect us to believe you intentionally concealed your glorious mane with a hat?

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Re: Never thought I'd be typing this

Post by Zarathud »

It is a crime against humanity to cover that hair. Sucks.

My wife almost didn’t admit to dating me because of my conservative views at the time. We joke I won her over while playing chess with her old kinda boyfriend at a coffee shop by exposing him as dumber than a sack of wet mice. And having a compatible broader world view.

We’ve made sure we have time for our own interests. We don’t pretend to like the same things, and try to leave space for the other without getting upset. It’s easier for me to get away, but she usually goes to visit friends during the summer. Usually with the kids. Not being able to travel this summer has been stressing her as that was her family relaxation growing up.
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Re: Never thought I'd be typing this

Post by msduncan »

Day 1 of 30 day separation. We said goodbye this morning and she drove off to work.

I've spent the morning in abject grief and wrought with anxiety. However, I did have a very constructive conversation with a friend who understands her personality type. Her love language is acts of service, and part of this personality is being suspicious of motivations behind behavior changes. I can tell her all day long that I'm making these changes 1. to make me a better person/husband and 2. because not doing these things were causing her pain. However, she's going to be suspicious of my motives and think that I'm just trying to keep her by doing them selfishly. There is NOTHING I can say to her to change this. All I can do is continue to do these things every single day, hour by hour, and hope that at the end of this she comes back to the table and sees that the changes are real and because I care enough -- and then be willing to walk this path together.
It's 109 first team All-Americans.
It's a college football record 61 bowl appearances.
It's 34 bowl victories.
It's 24 Southeastern Conference Championships.
It's 15 National Championships.

At some places they play football. At Alabama we live it.

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Re: Never thought I'd be typing this

Post by Freyland »

hepcat wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 9:23 am
It was an upscale grocery store in Akron, Ohio. We had gone there to get some staples for the evening and when we got back to the apartment she lived in, she turned to me and told me that she didn't think she could be with someone who thought it was okay to wear a hat indoors.

Now, I'm sure there was more to the issue than just that. And she did have a history of depression (having had to drop out of Penn State for a year at one point due to a breakdown), but to this day I still get razzed by friends back home over it. The most annoying line was from my friend Rizzo who always would tell people that she had dumped me because "Susan made eye contact with another guy in a parking lot".

cue sad trombone
As he subtly neglects to mention the lack of pants.
I don't remember where I read this, Cort, maybe it was in the last patch notes, but they said the UAZ really handles the best when... the wheels are actually touching the ground.
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