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Should Philip Rivers be in the Hall of Fame?

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Should Philip Rivers be in the Hall of Fame?

Absolutely!
9
32%
No Way Jose!
7
25%
Maybe
7
25%
There is no caring
5
18%
 
Total votes: 28

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LawBeefaroni
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Re: Should Philip Rivers be in the Hall of Fame?

Post by LawBeefaroni »

Scuzz wrote: Tue Dec 29, 2020 4:17 pm
noxiousdog wrote: Mon Dec 28, 2020 4:23 pm I still think Rivers is the 6th best QB of his generation and that shouldn't get you into the hall.

Brady
Peyton Manning
Brees
Rodgers
Rothlesberger
Rivers
So only 5 QB's from each generation should get into the HoF? Same with other position players?

Sounds like he is still better than most QBs. Rivers has played on some pretty crappy teams. I think his GM's have failed him more than he has failed the team. A QB is kinda like a starting pitcher who plays for a bad team but still has great stats, he is worthy.
No! The Hall of Fame is an exact science with sweeping social and cultural implications if someone is let in undeservedly!
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Re: Should Philip Rivers be in the Hall of Fame?

Post by Aliasbuck »

Scuzz wrote: Tue Dec 29, 2020 4:17 pm
noxiousdog wrote: Mon Dec 28, 2020 4:23 pm I still think Rivers is the 6th best QB of his generation and that shouldn't get you into the hall.

Brady
Peyton Manning
Brees
Rodgers
Rothlesberger
Rivers
So only 5 QB's from each generation should get into the HoF? Same with other position players?

Sounds like he is still better than most QBs. Rivers has played on some pretty crappy teams. I think his GM's have failed him more than he has failed the team. A QB is kinda like a starting pitcher who plays for a bad team but still has great stats, he is worthy.
For me, it's not that only X number should get in, but I feel like the sheer numbers make it harder. Consider the logjam at receiver: Steve Smith, Reggie Wayne, Andre Johnson, Anquan Boldin, Henry Ellard, Torry Holt, Irving Fryar, Hines Ward, Calvin Johnson, and more coming with Larry Fitzgerald retiring soon, Julio Jones is on year 9 or 10, Desean Jackson is getting up there, etc. Each of these guys needs at least 80% of the vote to get in. That's at one position and would make an awesome all time fantasy team. QB is going to be logjammed too, though not as badly, which is why I think he gets in.
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Re: Should Philip Rivers be in the Hall of Fame?

Post by Isgrimnur »

Scuzz wrote:A QB is kinda like a starting pitcher who plays for a bad team but still has great stats, he is worthy.
Randy Johnson.
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Re: Should Philip Rivers be in the Hall of Fame?

Post by pr0ner »

Isgrimnur wrote: Tue Dec 29, 2020 5:54 pm
Scuzz wrote:A QB is kinda like a starting pitcher who plays for a bad team but still has great stats, he is worthy.
Randy Johnson.
Who was a World Series MVP....
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Re: Should Philip Rivers be in the Hall of Fame?

Post by noxiousdog »

Scuzz wrote: Tue Dec 29, 2020 4:17 pm
noxiousdog wrote: Mon Dec 28, 2020 4:23 pm I still think Rivers is the 6th best QB of his generation and that shouldn't get you into the hall.

Brady
Peyton Manning
Brees
Rodgers
Rothlesberger
Rivers
So only 5 QB's from each generation should get into the HoF? Same with other position players?

Sounds like he is still better than most QBs. Rivers has played on some pretty crappy teams. I think his GM's have failed him more than he has failed the team. A QB is kinda like a starting pitcher who plays for a bad team but still has great stats, he is worthy.
Maybe. Depends on how many starters there are. Consider that's way less than 30 good QBs as I'm not comparing him to Mahomes or Watson as young guys or Farve and Warner as old guys. I think you're right in the argument that we were a bit spoiled with so many really good QBs so you might err on the side of more.

Rivers had 3 amazing years in 2008-2010. He's been living off that reputation ever since. Most of his career, he's been in the top third of QBs; not the top 5. It's not a travesty if he gets in. I just prefer a hall of fame and not a hall of very good.
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Re: Should Philip Rivers be in the Hall of Fame?

Post by pr0ner »

noxiousdog wrote: Tue Dec 29, 2020 10:28 pm
Scuzz wrote: Tue Dec 29, 2020 4:17 pm
noxiousdog wrote: Mon Dec 28, 2020 4:23 pm I still think Rivers is the 6th best QB of his generation and that shouldn't get you into the hall.

Brady
Peyton Manning
Brees
Rodgers
Rothlesberger
Rivers
So only 5 QB's from each generation should get into the HoF? Same with other position players?

Sounds like he is still better than most QBs. Rivers has played on some pretty crappy teams. I think his GM's have failed him more than he has failed the team. A QB is kinda like a starting pitcher who plays for a bad team but still has great stats, he is worthy.
Maybe. Depends on how many starters there are. Consider that's way less than 30 good QBs as I'm not comparing him to Mahomes or Watson as young guys or Farve and Warner as old guys. I think you're right in the argument that we were a bit spoiled with so many really good QBs so you might err on the side of more.

Rivers had 3 amazing years in 2008-2010. He's been living off that reputation ever since. Most of his career, he's been in the top third of QBs; not the top 5. It's not a travesty if he gets in. I just prefer a hall of fame and not a hall of very good.
Rivers may very well be a top 10 all time player in approximate value when he hangs them up. He's not a hall of very good level player. He's Hall of Fame level.
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Re: Should Philip Rivers be in the Hall of Fame?

Post by LawBeefaroni »

pr0ner wrote: Tue Dec 29, 2020 6:47 pm
Isgrimnur wrote: Tue Dec 29, 2020 5:54 pm
Scuzz wrote:A QB is kinda like a starting pitcher who plays for a bad team but still has great stats, he is worthy.
Randy Johnson.
Who was a World Series MVP....
Sure but those years in Seattle stuck with Griffey Jr., Martinez, Arod...
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Re: Should Philip Rivers be in the Hall of Fame?

Post by Ralph-Wiggum »

pr0ner wrote: Tue Dec 29, 2020 10:49 pm Rivers may very well be a top 10 all time player in approximate value when he hangs them up. He's not a hall of very good level player. He's Hall of Fame level.
I've only briefly looked into how approximate value is calculated, but isn't is somewhat biased to 1) QBs in general and 2) longevity (since I think it's total approximate value rather than yearly average)? Also, it doesn't account for negative plays which rewards gunslinger type QBs. For example, Jameis Winston's AV for 2019 (when he had 30 INTs and 12 fumbles) was a pretty damn good 15 (for reference, in 2018 Mahomes lead the league in AV with a score of 22). I don't know that anyone would say that Winston had a good year last year.
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Re: Should Philip Rivers be in the Hall of Fame?

Post by noxiousdog »

pr0ner wrote: Tue Dec 29, 2020 10:49 pm Rivers may very well be a top 10 all time player in approximate value when he hangs them up. He's not a hall of very good level player. He's Hall of Fame level.
Look. I'm a stat geek. But 1) football doesn't lend itself to being single stat measured; 2) why that one in particular?
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Re: Should Philip Rivers be in the Hall of Fame?

Post by pr0ner »

noxiousdog wrote: Wed Dec 30, 2020 10:04 am
pr0ner wrote: Tue Dec 29, 2020 10:49 pm Rivers may very well be a top 10 all time player in approximate value when he hangs them up. He's not a hall of very good level player. He's Hall of Fame level.
Look. I'm a stat geek. But 1) football doesn't lend itself to being single stat measured; 2) why that one in particular?
Because it's a way to compare players across positions and eras. Like WAR for baseball.
Ralph-Wiggum wrote: Wed Dec 30, 2020 10:01 am
pr0ner wrote: Tue Dec 29, 2020 10:49 pm Rivers may very well be a top 10 all time player in approximate value when he hangs them up. He's not a hall of very good level player. He's Hall of Fame level.
I've only briefly looked into how approximate value is calculated, but isn't is somewhat biased to 1) QBs in general and 2) longevity (since I think it's total approximate value rather than yearly average)? Also, it doesn't account for negative plays which rewards gunslinger type QBs. For example, Jameis Winston's AV for 2019 (when he had 30 INTs and 12 fumbles) was a pretty damn good 15 (for reference, in 2018 Mahomes lead the league in AV with a score of 22). I don't know that anyone would say that Winston had a good year last year.
AV isn't all that biased to QBs - in the raw and average category, less than half the top 20 players are QBs. Also for Jameis, in a year where he had all those turnovers, he also led the league in passing yards and was 2nd in TDs. That's a lot of positive to overcome with the negative stats.
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Re: Should Philip Rivers be in the Hall of Fame?

Post by pr0ner »

LawBeefaroni wrote: Tue Dec 29, 2020 11:52 pm
pr0ner wrote: Tue Dec 29, 2020 6:47 pm
Isgrimnur wrote: Tue Dec 29, 2020 5:54 pm
Scuzz wrote:A QB is kinda like a starting pitcher who plays for a bad team but still has great stats, he is worthy.
Randy Johnson.
Who was a World Series MVP....
Sure but those years in Seattle stuck with Griffey Jr., Martinez, Arod...
It was such a hard career for him.
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Re: Should Philip Rivers be in the Hall of Fame?

Post by Ralph-Wiggum »

pr0ner wrote: Wed Dec 30, 2020 12:06 pm
AV isn't all that biased to QBs - in the raw and average category, less than half the top 20 players are QBs.
Eight of the top 20 are QBs (and the first four are all QBs). Considering that the AV metric was made in order to compare the values of players across all positions, I would say that's pretty QB biased.
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Re: Should Philip Rivers be in the Hall of Fame?

Post by Lorini »

Ralph-Wiggum wrote: Wed Dec 30, 2020 12:28 pm
pr0ner wrote: Wed Dec 30, 2020 12:06 pm
AV isn't all that biased to QBs - in the raw and average category, less than half the top 20 players are QBs.
Eight of the top 20 are QBs (and the first four are all QBs). Considering that the AV metric was made in order to compare the values of players across all positions, I would say that's pretty QB biased.
Except that QB's control a lot of the game? If it were biased toward offensive lineman that'd be a problem :)
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Re: Should Philip Rivers be in the Hall of Fame?

Post by Jaymann »

Uh, Ray Guy is in the Hall of Fame...
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Re: Should Philip Rivers be in the Hall of Fame?

Post by noxiousdog »

pr0ner wrote: Wed Dec 30, 2020 12:06 pm Because it's a way to compare players across positions and eras. Like WAR for baseball.
That doesn't answer the question. There have been multiple books written about why and how WAR is calculated and useful.

Approximate value is one guy's theory and it's a finger in the air attempting to find out where the wind comes from.

From his explanation:
A reminder that this method is for the purpose of establishing approximate value.
...
Does it make this whole exercise useless? That's for you to decide. But if you think it does, there's not much point in reading on. So if you're still here, remember: I will liberally and sometimes arbitrarily play the "we're keeping it simple" card.
Anything that ranks Dan Marino 20% worse than Favre is a flawed metric.
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Re: Should Philip Rivers be in the Hall of Fame?

Post by pr0ner »

By your own argument, WAR is a flawed metric because it Andy Pettitte's career WAR is more than 20% higher than Sandy Koufax.

Longevity plays a huge role in HoF careers. It's why Brett Favre's AV is so much higher than Marino's. It's also part of why Rivers' numbers are higher than Roethlisberger's.

Rivers is a HoF QB. I would not be surprised if he makes it first ballot.
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Re: Should Philip Rivers be in the Hall of Fame?

Post by gameoverman »

noxiousdog wrote: Wed Dec 30, 2020 2:35 pmAnything that ranks Dan Marino 20% worse than Favre is a flawed metric.
This kind of thing is why I think it's worthwhile to count stats in the regular season separately from championship game performance.

If you count SB wins, then Trent Dilfer ranks above many other top quarterbacks because he has a win there and they don't. Game performance though is a whole other thing. Dilfer had 153 yards and 1 TD in that SB. Marino had amazing stats in the regular season and even in some playoff games, that's enough for me to consider him one of the all time greats. He had the bad luck of facing off against Montana's 49ers in that one SB and he couldn't wield his mojo the way Eli did against Brady. He was still an all time great though. Favre's stats aren't as good but he did have an awesome SB performance. It's not just that his team won, he personally performed at a high level in that game. That's what elevates his status in my opinion.
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Re: Should Philip Rivers be in the Hall of Fame?

Post by noxiousdog »

pr0ner wrote: Wed Dec 30, 2020 4:25 pm By your own argument, WAR is a flawed metric because it Andy Pettitte's career WAR is more than 20% higher than Sandy Koufax.

Longevity plays a huge role in HoF careers. It's why Brett Favre's AV is so much higher than Marino's. It's also part of why Rivers' numbers are higher than Roethlisberger's.

Rivers is a HoF QB. I would not be surprised if he makes it first ballot.
I wouldn't be surprised either. Borderline popular guys tend to get in.

Also note, Andy Petitte isn't anywhere close to the Hall of Fame ;)
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Re: Should Philip Rivers be in the Hall of Fame?

Post by Jaymann »

Old Man Rivers stages another ferocious 4th quarter comeback only to come up short, cementing his legacy.
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