Trump's Full Court Press on Tax Reform

[Carpet_pissr]

It's that old trickle down effect bullshit meme resurfacing.

[malchior]

An interesting piece about how NJ is getting the shaft by the Rs.It is amazing that the GOP plan piles more fiscal punishment on the NE while denying us any sort of relief. Including specifically excluding Sandy relief from tax breaks then and now. As well as trying to cut funding for key projects that are good for the region and the nation. Especially since they are bleeding us dry to keep red state taxes low.

[YellowKing]

Where are his tax returns?
Where are his tax returns?
Where are his tax returns?
Where are his tax returns?
Where are his tax returns?
Where are his tax returns?
Where are his tax returns?
Where are his tax returns?
Where are his tax returns?
Where are his tax returns?
Where are his tax returns?
Where are his tax returns?
Where are his tax returns?

[Max Peck]

Trump Officials Insist Nobody Knows Whether Their Tax Cut Helps Trump

If you’re pitching a tax plan as a yuge gift to the middle class, and not at all helpful to the nation’s top-earners, it’s not great for your case when people who analyze these things for a living conclude that, actually, your plan is hugely beneficial to the top 1 percent and of little help—and possible detriment—to just about everyone else. The Trump administration and the G.O.P., in all of their collective wisdom, apparently did not see this coming when they unveiled the framework of their regressive tax-reform plan last Wednesday. Now, in the wake of deafening criticism that the proposal will be a giant, papaya-colored giveaway to a group of people who most Americans think should be taxed more, Trump officials have been forced to explain why they’ve decided that millionaires and billionaires such as themselves need a much bigger tax break—an effort that has centered on claiming that anyone telling you such things couldn’t possibly have any idea what they’re talking about.

When asked about a new analysis by the nonpartisan Tax Policy Center that the top 1 percent of earners would enjoy almost 80 percent of the benefits of the plan, White House Budget Director Mick Mulvaney claimed, falsely, that Joe Biden’s former economic adviser works for the organization and therefore its analysis cannot be trusted. (The former adviser, Jared Bernstein, worked at the Center on Budget and Policy Priorities.) “It‘s not surprising that, you know a former chief economic for a Democrat vice president doesn’t like a Republican plan,” Mulvaney told Fox News’s Chris Wallace. Elsewhere, Treasury Secretary Steven Mnuchin and National Economic Council director Gary Cohn, who last week couldn’t guarantee middle-class families won’t pay more in taxes, argued along with House Speaker Paul Ryan that because their plan is missing so many key details, it’s not possible to say that it’s the wealthy who will benefit the most.

But the contours of the plan, such as they are, are relatively clear-cut. As New York’s Jonathan Chait points out, while the Tax Policy Center notes that “Many aspects of the plan were unspecified or left to be determined by the tax writing committees in Congress,” the group’s “preliminary analysis” was fleshed out by previous proposals such as “the House Republican leadership’s ‘A Better Way’ blueprint,” elements of which House Republicans will presumably incorporate into the final bill. “If House Republicans change the contours of their proposal,” Chait writes, “then the Tax Policy Center will publish a new analysis reflecting the changes.” It’s not that complicated, unless you have a vested interest in making it so in order to obscure the fact that you’re trying to push through a plan that is almost exclusively beneficial to people like Donald Trump.

[malchior]

The big move this week in tax reform was that the fucking moron sent forth his budget and treasury liars forth suggesting that red states are subsidizing "blue state" local and state tax deductions. No analysis supports that. It is insane. NJ gets something like 50% of its tax dollars back. NY is in the same boat. Delaware too, etc. It clearly is aimed at their idiotic base but I don't get how that is going to get this done. I think it is most likely a dead idea because I've been seeing a strong pattern of Rs in "blue states" saying that they won't be able to survive tax reform in current form. Especially if they kill these deductions to fund killing AMT and lowering the top bracket. That the administration is making their case in such a weak fashion underscores it for me. It reeks of desperation.

[gbasden]

The big move this week in tax reform was that the fucking moron sent forth his budget and treasury liars forth suggesting that red states are subsidizing "blue state" local and state tax deductions.

Yeah, that particular argument is just ridiculous. This whole trying to punish blue states while giving even more to red states move is just infuriating. I was talking to my parents last night - we tend to lean left but always had issues where we sided with the Republicans. Now it feels like every single position they take is directly opposed to every moral and ethical sense I have.

[El Guapo]

The big move this week in tax reform was that the fucking moron sent forth his budget and treasury liars forth suggesting that red states are subsidizing "blue state" local and state tax deductions. No analysis supports that. It is insane. NJ gets something like 50% of its tax dollars back. NY is in the same boat. Delaware too, etc. It clearly is aimed at their idiotic base but I don't get how that is going to get this done. I think it is most likely a dead idea because I've been seeing a strong pattern of Rs in "blue states" saying that they won't be able to survive tax reform in current form. Especially if they kill these deductions to fund killing AMT and lowering the top bracket. That the administration is making their case in such a weak fashion underscores it for me. It reeks of desperation.

Yeah, eliminating the tax deduction is probably dead at this point (though with this Congress, who knows). There's no point in GOP representatives in blue states running for reelection if they do this, at any rate.

Most likely they're going to wind up with Bush Tax redux - just a general slashing of upper income rates (and some middle rates as well) for 10 years.

[Octavious]

And then a massive recession.

[Isgrimnur]

Which will do wonders for keeping consumer debt rates low.

[Kraken]

And then a massive recession.

Which will be Obama's fault.

[LordMortis]

We *were* warned we are experiencing the calm before the storm.

[Smoove_B]

Oh hey look, Turmp's tax plan doesn't add up:

The proposal, negotiated by the White House and congressional leaders, is intended to simplify and lower tax rates, especially for corporations and for pass-through businesses, the type of individually owned company President Donald Trump relies on to organize his own finances.

The catch is that the money to lower those rates has to come from somewhere — from cutting spending, raising tax revenues in other ways, or borrowing. Republicans passed a budget that would allow them to borrow $1.5 trillion by piling it onto the deficit over the next decade, and a bookkeeping trick might give them $500 billion more to play with.

On some deduction details:

The state and local deduction isn't the only issue that could affect the middle class.

The GOP tax framework would double the standard deduction, to $12,000 per individual, but it would also get rid of a $4,050 personal exemption for each household member. As a result, taxpayers with two or more children could see more income taxed under the new plan, and at a higher starting rate of 12 percent rather than the current 10 percent.

To help avoid this problem, the framework calls for a larger child tax credit. But it offers few details, and the gains would depend a lot on the credit's overall size, how much of it would be refundable and what income levels could take advantage of it.

[Smoove_B]

It's on mother f-ers:

Senate Republicans just voted in favor of killing your property tax deduction, New Jersey.

The GOP senators, whose states received $223 billion more from the federal government than their residents send to Washington, voted Thursday in favor of eliminating the state and local tax deduction.

The deduction helps mostly helps residents in states like New Jersey that pay more in federal taxes than they get back from D.C.

"It's outrageous and patently unfair." U.S. Sen. Cory Booker, D-N.J., said in an interview after the vote. "There has to be a fundamental principle of tax fairness, not just between low-income wage earners and high-income wage earners, but the tax fairness really has to be between the states as well."

N.J. subsidizes other states

The amendment was approved primarily along party lines, 52-47, with U.S. Sen. Robert Menendez, D-N.J., absent because of his ongoing trial on federal corruption charges.

More details:

The effort to end the deduction was led by U.S. Sen. Shelley Moore Capito, R-West Virginia, whose state in 2015 received $2.07 from Washington for every $1 in federal taxes paid, more than 47 other states, according to the Rockefeller Institute.

New Jersey, on the other hand, got just 74 cents back for each $1, lowest among the 50 states.

[malchior]

This is beyond ridiculous but I still think it won't happen. If it does it will cause major problems down the road and they have to know that.

Edit: I just found out that the talk was that CORPORATIONS would not be affected and would keep the tax cut. I'm trying to find out if this is the case. I am boiling mad right now. These guys are beyond the pale crooked and mendacious.

[tjg_marantz]

MAGA bitches

[Zarathud]

It's not just political warfare on Blue States, but also bad tax policy.

The deduction for state and local taxes intends to avoid the federal government taxing the taxes that already came out of your wallet. Since the states had the first power to tax, Uncle Sam shouldn't be taxing assets you have already paid. A party that allegedly believes in States' Rights and stopping Unfair Taxation shouldn't be taking away the deduction for state and local taxes paid.

But they are anyway because it doesn't hurt their deplorable support, except in States the Republicans have written off.

[Kraken]

This was a procedural vote, right? They haven't voted on that provision for realsies yet...right?

I don't object to paying taxes if I feel that they're levied fairly and mostly put to good use. Taxes are the price of civilization. But I am going to be ripe for a pitchfork and a torch if the Koch tax cut comes out of my pocket.

[Octavious]

The way my taxes breakout this won't really impact me. My property taxes are low because my house is tiny and in a crappy town. Wooooooooooo... My brother and father would be royally screwed by this. Hell I think there would be a market collapse in NJ as people can barely afford to live here in the first place.

[El Guapo]

This was a procedural vote, right? They haven't voted on that provision for realsies yet...right?

I don't object to paying taxes if I feel that they're levied fairly and mostly put to good use. Taxes are the price of civilization. But I am going to be ripe for a pitchfork and a torch if the Koch tax cut comes out of my pocket.

That's right. In order to pass a tax bill via reconciliation (since there's no way in hell they're getting 60 votes), they have to first pass a budget resolution. That was this vote (and I think they still have to pass a budget resolution in the House). They did the same thing before the tries at a health care reconciliation bill last (fiscal) year.

Odds are pretty high that the abolition of the tax deduction is stripped from the final bill, since there are still Republican representatives from blue states that would like to remain in Congress. So I still think the most likely outcome here is Bush Tax Cuts II - big deficit exploding tax cuts that sunset after 10 years. That said, Congress came within a hair's breath of passing extremely unpopular and crazy health care repeal bills, so...who knows these days.

[malchior]

A lot of the detail is missing but assuming it is the $24K deduction and personal exemptions are eliminated ... I am out possibly to the tune of approximately $4K/year in higher taxes. And my corporate neighbors get to keep the deduction? This is wrong.

[Octavious]

Corporate lives matter! Seriously though, we almost totally collapsed the country because of the Bush tax cuts and were thinking of not only doing it again, but more extreme? I saw screw it, let it burn to the ground at this point. I don't see us ever getting out of this mess and the companies have just too much power and the general populace is easily manipulated. I mean holy hell every day it's Clinton this Clinton that. She lost! She doesn't matter! What matters is that you elected a f'n idiot who just wants to steal as much as he can before he gets kicked out.

[Kraken]

Corporate lives matter! Seriously though, we almost totally collapsed the country because of the Bush tax cuts and were thinking of not only doing it again, but more extreme? I saw screw it, let it burn to the ground at this point.

It really does feel like things are deteriorating at a faster rate on more fronts than I can even follow, and that it's only going to keep getting worse. Every generation thinks it's living in the end times...but how many have this much evidence to back it up?

[GreenGoo]

Corporate lives matter! Seriously though, we almost totally collapsed the country because of the Bush tax cuts and were thinking of not only doing it again, but more extreme? I saw screw it, let it burn to the ground at this point.

It really does feel like things are deteriorating at a faster rate on more fronts than I can even follow, and that it's only going to keep getting worse. Every generation thinks it's living in the end times...but how many have this much evidence to back it up?

The MacArthy era, the cuban missile crisis both seem to have been much worse than what's happening now. The great depression was within the last century, too.

I'll withold my judgment until after Drumpf is out of office. Whether that's tomorrow, 2020 or 2024. What happens after that will determine where the country is headed more fully.

[LawBeefaroni]

Smaller 401k/IRA limits incoming?

Republicans are looking for ways to generate revenue to support broad reductions in individual tax rates. One idea is to limit the amount of pretax money households can sock away for retirement saving. Such a move would likely generate significant political blowback but it hasn’t been explicitly ruled out, stirring worry among industry lobbyists.

....

Lobbyists and others in the retirement and financial services industries who have spoken to congressional staff and committee members say lawmakers are looking at proposals that would allow 401(k) participants to contribute significantly less than what is currently allowed in a traditional tax-deferred 401(k). An often mentioned amount is $2,400 a year. It isn’t clear whether that would only apply to 401(k)s or IRAs or both.

Another hit to the middle class that has virtually no effect on the 1%.

[pr0ner]

$2400 a year? That's it?

This tax plan is terrible. So, so terrible.

[malchior]

$2400? Are you fucking kidding me? I wonder if I should start framing this as the baby boomers against the rest of us because that is what some of this feels like.

That is essentially a 5K increase on the average married person who is able to max out their 401K currently. Insanity.

[pr0ner]

For me, that would be at least an extra $10k that's taxed as income now rather than in the future.

And that would be on top of losing the state and local tax deduction, if that comes to pass.

Nope. This won't be a tax cut for me. Not at all.

[El Guapo]

Corporate lives matter! Seriously though, we almost totally collapsed the country because of the Bush tax cuts and were thinking of not only doing it again, but more extreme? I saw screw it, let it burn to the ground at this point.

It really does feel like things are deteriorating at a faster rate on more fronts than I can even follow, and that it's only going to keep getting worse. Every generation thinks it's living in the end times...but how many have this much evidence to back it up?

The MacArthy era, the cuban missile crisis both seem to have been much worse than what's happening now. The great depression was within the last century, too.

I'll withold my judgment until after Drumpf is out of office. Whether that's tomorrow, 2020 or 2024. What happens after that will determine where the country is headed more fully.

Yeah even with Trump I would happily take 1987 - 2017 over 1915 - 1945 - people in the first half of the 20th century had a much stronger case about things rapidly deteriorating.

[El Guapo]

For me, that would be at least an extra $10k that's taxed as income now rather than in the future.

And that would be on top of losing the state and local tax deduction, if that comes to pass.

Nope. This won't be a tax cut for me. Not at all.

It's grimly hilarious to think back to all the GOP officials attacking democratic tax and policy plans as "class warfare".

[malchior]

Corporate lives matter! Seriously though, we almost totally collapsed the country because of the Bush tax cuts and were thinking of not only doing it again, but more extreme? I saw screw it, let it burn to the ground at this point.

It really does feel like things are deteriorating at a faster rate on more fronts than I can even follow, and that it's only going to keep getting worse. Every generation thinks it's living in the end times...but how many have this much evidence to back it up?

The MacArthy era, the cuban missile crisis both seem to have been much worse than what's happening now. The great depression was within the last century, too.

This is worse than the Mccarthy era by far already. I'd give you the cuban missile crisis as an absolute because that was a point in time event that could have ended civilization.

Still I think it is more useful to think about this as a broad based decline of an entire nation's values in plain sight. In combination with behavior since 2000. There is open racism when racism is largely seen as unacceptable. Outright constant lying by public officials with no recourse. There was massive redistribution of wealth upward already and this tax policy will probably manage to make it worse.

This is kleptocracy and kakistocracy all at once. No wonder belief in democracy is at an all time low. And the crisis is spreading across large portions of the Western world as economic disparity grows. This is very much like the pre-Depression 30s but with worse leadership values and nuclear weapons. No bueno.

[malchior]

Yeah even with Trump I would happily take 1987 - 2017 over 1915 - 1945 - people in the first half of the 20th century had a much stronger case about things rapidly deteriorating.

Financial regulation and no gold standard for the win. We dodged one in 2008 but I'm not so sure we aren't seeing massive deterioration. Think about last year compared to this year. We are significantly worse off governance wise being ruled by a government that was elected by the "minority" of voters. It could get better but the trend change is not looking good at the moment.

[pr0ner]

For me, that would be at least an extra $10k that's taxed as income now rather than in the future.

And that would be on top of losing the state and local tax deduction, if that comes to pass.

Nope. This won't be a tax cut for me. Not at all.

It's grimly hilarious to think back to all the GOP officials attacking democratic tax and policy plans as "class warfare".

No kidding. I don't see how the increase in the standard deduction, along with eliminating personal exemptions and the state/local income tax deduction, paired by this possible change in the retirement allowance, would mean this is anything but a tax increase for me. Especially since my income puts me in a *higher* marginal tax bracket than I'm in now.

I wonder what "sacred cow" they'll go after next.

[El Guapo]

Yeah even with Trump I would happily take 1987 - 2017 over 1915 - 1945 - people in the first half of the 20th century had a much stronger case about things rapidly deteriorating.

Financial regulation and no gold standard for the win. We dodged one in 2008 but I'm not so sure we aren't seeing massive deterioration. Think about last year compared to this year. We are significantly worse off governance wise being ruled by a government that was elected by the "minority" of voters. It could get better but the trend change is not looking good at the moment.

From 1932 - 1945 over 6 million civilians (Jews and other minorities) were intentionally murdered as part of a systematic government policy. Tens of millions more (>20 million in the USSR alone) died as part of a global war. The Ukranian famine and the Bengal famine, which were largely caused by governmental policies, probably killed at least 10 million more between those two events. And we haven't even touched the civilian deaths in WWII China!

I'm not saying that things aren't bad. But that things are uniquely bad doesn't really stand up to scrutiny.

Until Trump causes a global thermonuclear war, anyway.

[malchior]

I was talking the United States here. Even during the depression there wasn't this level of disunity. There were flare ups but nothing as consistently un-Democratic and fact-averse as now. If you want to talk about the state of the world, sure it was clearly worse. The Internet didn't exist then. You likely can't hide mass executions anymore.

[El Guapo]

Well, even with that limit you had the Great Depression, Japanese internment, and apartheid enforced under color of law, not to mention wartime atrocities like the firebombings of Dresden and Tokyo.

And on disunity... there was the time before then that U.S. governance failed so completely that the country split into two warring sides, killing millions of Americans.

[malchior]

Well, even with that limit you had the Great Depression, Japanese internment, and apartheid enforced under color of law, not to mention wartime atrocities like the firebombings of Dresden and Tokyo.

And on disunity... there was the time before then that U.S. governance failed so completely that the country split into two warring sides, killing millions of Americans.

Thanks for the condescending history lessons. Believe what you want but even during those periods you didn't have elected officials in the US telling verifiable falsehoods and being cheered on by the ignorants masses. I merely said it is *trending* badly. Worse than Mccarthy for sure and could be massive deterioration in progress. It might end up being worse than the Depression years here. We have movements in multiple states depending on who is in charge with 30-40% support to secede from the union such as what we see in Texas and California. These are not normal times.

[El Guapo]

Well, even with that limit you had the Great Depression, Japanese internment, and apartheid enforced under color of law, not to mention wartime atrocities like the firebombings of Dresden and Tokyo.

And on disunity... there was the time before then that U.S. governance failed so completely that the country split into two warring sides, killing millions of Americans.

Thanks for the condescending history lessons. Believe what you want but even during those periods you didn't have elected officials in the US telling verifiable falsehoods and being cheered on by the ignorants masses. I merely said it is *trending* badly. Worse than Mccarthy for sure and could be massive deterioration in progress. It might end up being worse than the Depression years here. We have movements in multiple states depending on who is in charge with 30-40% support to secede from the union such as what we see in Texas and California. These are not normal times.

Shrug. Thank you for your unnecessary hostility.

[malchior]

Well, even with that limit you had the Great Depression, Japanese internment, and apartheid enforced under color of law, not to mention wartime atrocities like the firebombings of Dresden and Tokyo.

And on disunity... there was the time before then that U.S. governance failed so completely that the country split into two warring sides, killing millions of Americans.

Thanks for the condescending history lessons. Believe what you want but even during those periods you didn't have elected officials in the US telling verifiable falsehoods and being cheered on by the ignorants masses. I merely said it is *trending* badly. Worse than Mccarthy for sure and could be massive deterioration in progress. It might end up being worse than the Depression years here. We have movements in multiple states depending on who is in charge with 30-40% support to secede from the union such as what we see in Texas and California. These are not normal times.

Shrug. Thank you for your unnecessary hostility.

Wait - you don't think your post came across as condescendingly hostile?

[Octavious]

Well, even with that limit you had the Great Depression, Japanese internment, and apartheid enforced under color of law, not to mention wartime atrocities like the firebombings of Dresden and Tokyo.

And on disunity... there was the time before then that U.S. governance failed so completely that the country split into two warring sides, killing millions of Americans.

Thanks for the condescending history lessons. Believe what you want but even during those periods you didn't have elected officials in the US telling verifiable falsehoods and being cheered on by the ignorants masses. I merely said it is *trending* badly. Worse than Mccarthy for sure and could be massive deterioration in progress. It might end up being worse than the Depression years here. We have movements in multiple states depending on who is in charge with 30-40% support to secede from the union such as what we see in Texas and California. These are not normal times.

Shrug. Thank you for your unnecessary hostility.

Wait - you don't think your post came across as condescendingly hostile?

I was kind of surprised you took it that way. This is certainly the worst leadership in the countries history, but bad shit has always been happening. The total bald face lying to the point of insanity is certainly new and exciting. Hopefully he doesn't create a trend, but I can't see how we ever really go back to normal after he has shockingly shown how little people care about the truth.

[El Guapo]

Well, even with that limit you had the Great Depression, Japanese internment, and apartheid enforced under color of law, not to mention wartime atrocities like the firebombings of Dresden and Tokyo.

And on disunity... there was the time before then that U.S. governance failed so completely that the country split into two warring sides, killing millions of Americans.

Thanks for the condescending history lessons. Believe what you want but even during those periods you didn't have elected officials in the US telling verifiable falsehoods and being cheered on by the ignorants masses. I merely said it is *trending* badly. Worse than Mccarthy for sure and could be massive deterioration in progress. It might end up being worse than the Depression years here. We have movements in multiple states depending on who is in charge with 30-40% support to secede from the union such as what we see in Texas and California. These are not normal times.

Shrug. Thank you for your unnecessary hostility.

Wait - you don't think your post came across as condescendingly hostile?

I mean, obviously it did come across that way to you given the response, but no, that was not my intention.