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The Trump Presidency Thread

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Re: The Trump Presidency Thread

Post by Rip » Tue May 15, 2018 11:58 pm

Holman wrote:
Tue May 15, 2018 8:38 pm
Rip wrote:
Tue May 15, 2018 8:32 pm
LordMortis wrote:
Tue May 15, 2018 7:13 pm
Rip wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 10:43 am
They chose to riot. Dying is a result of their choices not his.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/worl ... 51971.html

But at least we're not talking about a Trump properties, Indonesian grift or is that graft, ZTE triangle, amiright?
People who would take an 8 month old to a violent protest don't deserve kids.
Please, tell us more about how unarmed people asserting a political claim aren't even human.
They are not unarmed. If they just wanted to stand out there and protest no one would care. That is nowhere near all they are doing.
Israeli drones dropped tear gas onto Palestinian demonstrators who used kites to drop molotov cocktails.
Demonstrators, some armed with slingshots, threw stones at the Israeli security forces, who fired tear gas back.
https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/95 ... stine-Gaza

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Re: The Trump Presidency Thread

Post by Chaz » Wed May 16, 2018 6:03 am

I'm sure those advanced military tactics couldn't possibly have been overcome by the IDF in any other way than with massive lethal force. Like, stepping back from the fence about 50' wouldn't have done it or anything.
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Re: The Trump Presidency Thread

Post by Defiant » Wed May 16, 2018 7:22 am

In addition, there have been reports at these protests of people with guns, petrol bombs and balloon bombs. But, AFAIK, the overwhelming majority of people didn't have weapons. I would hope that Israel would focus on non-lethal or less lethal options (warning shots, tear gas, rubber bullets, etc) first, and resort to killing as a last option (or directed at those with weapons), but I also know they have a priority of not allowing the border to be breached. I'm not a military expert, and I don't know enough to know how well they did in minimizing the deaths while achieving that aim, but based on past experience, where we've seen plenty of examples where, with time, the Israeli side gets corroborated, I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt until we have all the facts.

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Re: The Trump Presidency Thread

Post by LawBeefaroni » Wed May 16, 2018 9:00 am

If a >0 n of armed individuals in a crowd is justification for killing anyone in that crowd, well let the barrell bombs fly.

Policing is hard. ROE suck. That's life for non-murderous governments.




Personally, as a rule I just avoid crowds that look like they'll get unruly and would never put my kids in one. Retreat is the best solution. But then I'm not a Palestinian and I don't live in the Gaza Strip. I can say with some certainty that I have no idea what it's like.
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Re: The Trump Presidency Thread

Post by Paingod » Wed May 16, 2018 9:07 am

Defiant wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 7:22 am
In addition, there have been reports at these protests of people with guns, petrol bombs and balloon bombs. But, AFAIK, the overwhelming majority of people didn't have weapons. I would hope that Israel would focus on non-lethal or less lethal options (warning shots, tear gas, rubber bullets, etc) first, and resort to killing as a last option (or directed at those with weapons), but I also know they have a priority of not allowing the border to be breached. I'm not a military expert, and I don't know enough to know how well they did in minimizing the deaths while achieving that aim, but based on past experience, where we've seen plenty of examples where, with time, the Israeli side gets corroborated, I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt until we have all the facts.
NPR was on this yesterday and had an Israeli representative talking about how they were using varying methods - from tear gas to rubber bullets to live ammo but aiming low, at legs. Their stance was pretty clear "When you have a known terrorist group like Hamas in control of these protests, and they're preaching about how they plan to march into your cities and burn them down, you take them seriously."

Blame for everyone, all the way around - from parents bringing their kids, to Hamas for whipping people into a frenzy, to the IDF for shooting people trying to breach their border. At the same time, I don't know if there's any good answers on either side if you listen to them.
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Re: The Trump Presidency Thread

Post by LordMortis » Wed May 16, 2018 9:09 am

Defiant wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 7:22 am
I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt until we have all the facts.
They've made it so hard when there is always a pre-emption and next thing afterward. I've lost that will. I had that will in 2017 but it's gone now.

I get to "I'm will..." and then there is only Trump Embassy Day dead Palestinian refugees near the border on the Gaza Strip.

Image

I can't.

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Re: The Trump Presidency Thread

Post by LordMortis » Wed May 16, 2018 9:13 am

LawBeefaroni wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 9:00 am
Personally, as a rule I just avoid crowds that look like they'll get unruly and would never put my kids in one. Retreat is the best solution. But then I'm not a Palestinian and I don't live in the Gaza Strip. I can say with some certainty that I have no idea what it's like.
It's more than a rule for me. It's a way of life. I actively seek to avoid them and find the exit should it look like one is forming.

And yet I'm way closer breaking this more than a rule than I want to be. I wake up sometimes fearing Mueller had been fired and that I'll need to cross that line to save my country.

I'm not a refugee living in a tent within view of sniper posts of people taught to call me a terrorist. I have no way to empathize with that.

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Re: The Trump Presidency Thread

Post by El Guapo » Wed May 16, 2018 9:22 am

LawBeefaroni wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 9:00 am
If a >0 n of armed individuals in a crowd is justification for killing anyone in that crowd, well let the barrell bombs fly.

Policing is hard. ROE suck. That's life for non-murderous governments.




Personally, as a rule I just avoid crowds that look like they'll get unruly and would never put my kids in one. Retreat is the best solution. But then I'm not a Palestinian and I don't live in the Gaza Strip. I can say with some certainty that I have no idea what it's like.
I think it's not "some armed individuals gives authorization to shoot anyone" and more "some armed individuals means that they have to take the threat of violence seriously, because they don't know who in any crowd is armed". And as Paingod noted they are using non-lethal methods - tear gas, rubber bullets, etc. But of course, there's no perfect non-lethal method - the baby that died (that Rip was pretty callous about) was killed by tear gas. And it certainly doesn't help that the group organizing all of this (Hamas) affirmatively wants people to die, because that's what it needs out of all this.

Which is not to say that the IDF is handling this perfectly. Just from knowing how police / military operations often go in the United States, I assume that in all of this some IDF soldiers and commanders are making poor or callous choices in the use of force. But turning back large angry crowds of partially armed people (some of whom are willing or eager to die, and some of whom will try to kill you) without hurting anyone is not an easy thing to do. Point is just that it's way more complicated than "villanous government mowing down peaceful protesters".

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Re: The Trump Presidency Thread

Post by Chaz » Wed May 16, 2018 9:38 am

Just to briefly derail back to the stone tablet on the embassy: is it really standard practice to permanently engrave the name of whatever sitting President established the embassy in that location? If so, that seems weird. If not, will they need to replace the stone tablet when the next President gets inaugurated, while they're changing all the portraits? Is it like the Stanley Cup, where they just keep adding new names? Or is the idea that they'll never have to change the name because...
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Re: The Trump Presidency Thread

Post by Defiant » Wed May 16, 2018 9:46 am

What I could find with google. I assume, since they reference the dedication ceremony event, it wouldn't be changed with each new President.

Image

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Last edited by Defiant on Wed May 16, 2018 9:55 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The Trump Presidency Thread

Post by hepcat » Wed May 16, 2018 9:53 am

Defiant wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 9:46 am
What I could find with google:

Image
It's really gotta piss off Rip that they installed a Hillary too.
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Re: The Trump Presidency Thread

Post by LordMortis » Wed May 16, 2018 9:56 am

Chaz wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 9:38 am
Just to briefly derail back to the stone tablet on the embassy: is it really standard practice to permanently engrave the name of whatever sitting President established the embassy in that location? If so, that seems weird. If not, will they need to replace the stone tablet when the next President gets inaugurated, while they're changing all the portraits? Is it like the Stanley Cup, where they just keep adding new names? Or is the idea that they'll never have to change the name because...
It makes sense that is. It makes sense that you even make it press worthy photo-op. But we have a president who demonstrably uses press worthy photo ops to sell his personal brand "his personal relationships" the day they explicitly chose to sell the Trump brand on Isreali Independence day, alternatively known as

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nakba_Day


Edit: Bammed twice. While i try to figure out Nakba....

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Re: The Trump Presidency Thread

Post by Max Peck » Wed May 16, 2018 10:20 am

Defiant wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 9:46 am
What I could find with google. I assume, since they reference the dedication ceremony event, it wouldn't be changed with each new President.
The common thread in all those other plaques is that they don't represent any of the individuals as being co-equal in prominence to the institution.

Given Trump's predilections, are we confident that the plaque at the embassy in Bosnia and Herzegovina hasn't been altered? Assuming that the administration even knows that they have an embassy there -- it looks like there is an ambassador, but she is a career diplomat appointed by Obama who somehow survived last year's purge.
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Re: The Trump Presidency Thread

Post by Rip » Wed May 16, 2018 10:32 am

Image

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Re: The Trump Presidency Thread

Post by TheMix » Wed May 16, 2018 10:36 am

How long until he realizes that he can make money by purchasing property in every city that has an embassy, and then deciding to move the embassy... naturally to the land that he just purchased? And the cost will not matter due to ... reasons. Plus he'll be able to put up a plaque on each new embassy. There is so much WINNING there for him.
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Re: The Trump Presidency Thread

Post by Remus West » Wed May 16, 2018 10:36 am

Chaz wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 9:38 am
Just to briefly derail back to the stone tablet on the embassy: is it really standard practice to permanently engrave the name of whatever sitting President established the embassy in that location? If so, that seems weird. If not, will they need to replace the stone tablet when the next President gets inaugurated, while they're changing all the portraits? Is it like the Stanley Cup, where they just keep adding new names? Or is the idea that they'll never have to change the name because...
Covered earlier as SOP. I haven't looked into that though.

Beaten to it multiple times I see.
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Re: The Trump Presidency Thread

Post by Defiant » Wed May 16, 2018 10:46 am

Israel says at least 24 of 60 Gazans reported killed at border were terrorists
The Hamas and Palestinian Islamic Jihad terror groups acknowledged Tuesday that 13 operatives from the organizations were among the 60 reported killed by IDF fire at the Gaza fence protests a day prior. Israel said at least 24 of the dead were members of terror groups.

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Re: The Trump Presidency Thread

Post by LordMortis » Wed May 16, 2018 10:47 am

Rip wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 10:32 am
pictures of horrible things, presumably being done by horrible Hamas...
May, 14, 2018

"From King David's time to our own, President Trump has now etched his name into the ineffaceable story of Jerusalem."

Trudat!

edit:

That headline to me does not say what I think it means to say. If you tell me at least 24 of the 60 people we killed were terrorists, I see as many 36 of the people we killed may have had nothing to do with why were killing people.

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Re: The Trump Presidency Thread

Post by LawBeefaroni » Wed May 16, 2018 10:58 am

El Guapo wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 9:22 am
LawBeefaroni wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 9:00 am
If a >0 n of armed individuals in a crowd is justification for killing anyone in that crowd, well let the barrell bombs fly.

Policing is hard. ROE suck. That's life for non-murderous governments.




Personally, as a rule I just avoid crowds that look like they'll get unruly and would never put my kids in one. Retreat is the best solution. But then I'm not a Palestinian and I don't live in the Gaza Strip. I can say with some certainty that I have no idea what it's like.
I think it's not "some armed individuals gives authorization to shoot anyone" and more "some armed individuals means that they have to take the threat of violence seriously, because they don't know who in any crowd is armed". And as Paingod noted they are using non-lethal methods - tear gas, rubber bullets, etc. But of course, there's no perfect non-lethal method - the baby that died (that Rip was pretty callous about) was killed by tear gas. And it certainly doesn't help that the group organizing all of this (Hamas) affirmatively wants people to die, because that's what it needs out of all this.

Which is not to say that the IDF is handling this perfectly. Just from knowing how police / military operations often go in the United States, I assume that in all of this some IDF soldiers and commanders are making poor or callous choices in the use of force. But turning back large angry crowds of partially armed people (some of whom are willing or eager to die, and some of whom will try to kill you) without hurting anyone is not an easy thing to do. Point is just that it's way more complicated than "villanous government mowing down peaceful protesters".
I probably should have quoted rip, since it was mostly directed at this:
They are not unarmed. If they just wanted to stand out there and protest no one would care. That is nowhere near all they are doing.
And not the IDF.


But I get your point.
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Re: The Trump Presidency Thread

Post by Kurth » Wed May 16, 2018 11:15 am

El Guapo wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 9:22 am
LawBeefaroni wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 9:00 am
If a >0 n of armed individuals in a crowd is justification for killing anyone in that crowd, well let the barrell bombs fly.

Policing is hard. ROE suck. That's life for non-murderous governments.




Personally, as a rule I just avoid crowds that look like they'll get unruly and would never put my kids in one. Retreat is the best solution. But then I'm not a Palestinian and I don't live in the Gaza Strip. I can say with some certainty that I have no idea what it's like.
I think it's not "some armed individuals gives authorization to shoot anyone" and more "some armed individuals means that they have to take the threat of violence seriously, because they don't know who in any crowd is armed". And as Paingod noted they are using non-lethal methods - tear gas, rubber bullets, etc. But of course, there's no perfect non-lethal method - the baby that died (that Rip was pretty callous about) was killed by tear gas. And it certainly doesn't help that the group organizing all of this (Hamas) affirmatively wants people to die, because that's what it needs out of all this.

Which is not to say that the IDF is handling this perfectly. Just from knowing how police / military operations often go in the United States, I assume that in all of this some IDF soldiers and commanders are making poor or callous choices in the use of force. But turning back large angry crowds of partially armed people (some of whom are willing or eager to die, and some of whom will try to kill you) without hurting anyone is not an easy thing to do. Point is just that it's way more complicated than "villanous government mowing down peaceful protesters".
I was gonna post something on the Israel/Gaza situation, but El Guapo’s post above pretty much captures my feelings on this, especially the bolder portion.

Also, I wanted to add that on NPR yesterday, they had a segment that featured voices from Gaza. The first one up was a British emergency room trauma surgeon who had flown into a hospital 3 KM from the border a day before the May 15 protests. In the interview, he said reps from Egypt and Hamas had coordinated him being there, and they had explained they would need him at the hospital because they expected to be overwhelmed shortly with gunshot wounds resulting from the protests. Point being, the Palestinians (and their elected leaders in Hamas) are purposefully inciting the IDF to shoot them. This is not unexpected or avoidable. When you have a massive protest made up of some subset of people who’s goal is to provoke a violent response from an opposing military, violence is going to happen.

This doesn’t mean I fully endorse Israel’s response in all regards. Only that the massive outpouring of international sympathy for the Palestinians and condemnation for Israel is exactly what Hamas intended when it sent the Palestinians to the border to face off against the IDF.

Final thing: For those who were OUTRAGED about RIP’s comment about the 8 month old baby who died, you should reread his comment. RIP was clearly blaming the parents for bringing the baby to the protests. He was neither (1) blaming the baby; or (2) disregarding the baby’s death because of the sins of its parents. Come on. Please stop making me have to defend RIP. It feels . . . :?
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Re: The Trump Presidency Thread

Post by Holman » Wed May 16, 2018 11:21 am

Rip wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 10:32 am
Enlarge Image
I'm no fan of violent protest, but Rip, you might want to ask whether the obvious David-and-Goliath imagery is really doing the work you want here.

I haven't been able to find any information about it. Have any Israeli soldiers been killed or severely wounded by this army of rock-throwers?
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Re: The Trump Presidency Thread

Post by Blackhawk » Wed May 16, 2018 12:26 pm

Remember when the election riots resulted in the police killing 60 people to stop the 24 who were throwing rocks at their riot shields?
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Re: The Trump Presidency Thread

Post by LordMortis » Wed May 16, 2018 12:50 pm

In all fairness, those were rioters, and those were weapons. Slings aren't toys and they aren't meant for protest. While I lament the idea of martyring them, in precise assassinations by snipers, it''s in someway understandable.

But conflating those killings with the you should know better than to be a refugee living on the West Bank when you were warned that being a refugee on the West Bank could get you killed to day. Well, you get what you deserve. That's where my circuits fry.

I don't recommend you go searching for some of the video of targeted assassinations of people around these border fences because I didn't mean to find them when I was trying to learn what was happening and I was horrified. Needless to say, they weren't targeting angry young men with slings and no regard for their own lives.

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Re: The Trump Presidency Thread

Post by Blackhawk » Wed May 16, 2018 2:09 pm

Yeah, I've used a sling. They're lethal up to a certain range. The point was more about the 'more than 1/3 of those killed were actually guilty, so it's OK' idea.
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Re: The Trump Presidency Thread

Post by El Guapo » Wed May 16, 2018 2:12 pm

Blackhawk wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 2:09 pm
Yeah, I've used a sling. They're lethal up to a certain range. The point was more about the 'more than 1/3 of those killed were actually guilty, so it's OK' idea.
Again, that's not it. It's that some percentage (1/3rd of what have you) are actually armed and dangerous, and people trying to push back the crowd don't know who, which is going to color the use of force by the IDF.

I don't know that many / any people (maybe Rip, not sure) are saying that the presence of some guilty people authorizes the shooting of non-guilty people.

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Re: The Trump Presidency Thread

Post by Enough » Wed May 16, 2018 2:14 pm

Tillerson has some advice for Americans this graduation season:


"If our leaders seek to conceal the truth or we as people become accepting of alternative realities that are no longer grounded in facts then we as American citizens are on a pathway to relinquishing our freedom."
https://twitter.com/PeterAlexander/stat ... 7722910722
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Re: The Trump Presidency Thread

Post by Max Peck » Wed May 16, 2018 2:18 pm

Did Israel use excessive force at Gaza protests?
What do human rights groups say?

They have accused the Israeli military of using excessive force.

They have said Israeli soldiers deployed near the Gaza protests were required to operate according to the international legal framework applicable to police and other law enforcement officials, which is part of international human rights law. It holds that the "intentional lethal use of firearms may only be made when strictly unavoidable in order to protect life".

"An attempt to approach or crossing or damaging the fence do not amount to a threat to life or serious injury and are not sufficient grounds for the use of live ammunition," Rupert Colville, a spokesman for the UN High Commissioner for Human Rights, told reporters on Tuesday.

"This is also the case with regards to stones and Molotov cocktails being thrown from a distance at well-protected security forces located behind defensive positions."

Philip Luther, Amnesty International's Middle East director, said: "This is a violation of international standards, with Israeli forces in some instances committing what appear to be wilful killings constituting war crimes."

Last month, the group documented witness testimony, video and photographic evidence that it said showed Israeli troops were killing and maiming demonstrators who posed no imminent threat to them.

The Israeli human rights group B'Tselem said the open-fire orders were "manifestly unlawful" and called on Israeli soldiers in the field to refuse to comply with them.

Last month, six other human rights groups asked the Israeli Supreme Court to revoke the military's rules of engagement that they said permitted live fire at protesters classified as "key agitators" even when they did not pose an immediate threat to life. The groups said soldiers should instead follow the law enforcement framework. The court's decision is pending.
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Re: The Trump Presidency Thread

Post by pr0ner » Wed May 16, 2018 3:51 pm

Enough wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 2:14 pm
Tillerson has some advice for Americans this graduation season:


"If our leaders seek to conceal the truth or we as people become accepting of alternative realities that are no longer grounded in facts then we as American citizens are on a pathway to relinquishing our freedom."
https://twitter.com/PeterAlexander/stat ... 7722910722
Would have been nice if Tillerson has found his conscience BEFORE he gutted the State Department, but kudos to him for coming out and saying this.
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Re: The Trump Presidency Thread

Post by Holman » Wed May 16, 2018 5:09 pm


President Trump during California #SanctuaryCities Roundtable: "These aren't people. These are animals."
Donald Trump is not a person. He's an animal.

Scratch that. He's simply and clearly a repulsive bigot.
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Re: The Trump Presidency Thread

Post by Enough » Wed May 16, 2018 5:32 pm

Holman wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 5:09 pm

President Trump during California #SanctuaryCities Roundtable: "These aren't people. These are animals."
Donald Trump is not a person. He's an animal.

Scratch that. He's simply and clearly a repulsive bigot.
What-- you would rather protect the "good name" of gang-bangers and not protect AMERICAN CITIZENS? Talk about animals.

(this exercise in sarcasm brought to you by the letter D).

In fairness every single human being on the planet is an animal! And one look at humanity tells you we are still wild creatures. ;-)
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Re: The Trump Presidency Thread

Post by Pyperkub » Wed May 16, 2018 5:43 pm

Not exactly unexpected, but it was pretty much the only portion of the Trump Agenda I thought was reasonable and good for the country:
Donald Trump ran for president as an economic populist. This fact has been largely forgotten, buried by the flurry of bizarre and outrageous actions, and activists on both sides have had little reason to bring it up. Conservatives have pushed the administration to forget its unorthodox gestures and follow Paul Ryan’s lead. Progressives have emphasized the racist and sexist nature of Trump’s appeal. But Trump’s ability to distance himself from his party’s economic brand formed a decisive element of his appeal. Voters actually saw Trump as more moderate than any Republican presidential candidate since 1972. And he has violated every one of his promises...

...Trump promised to do a lot of un-Republican things to give resources and influence to blue-collar Americans, which would have threatened his party’s power brokers. Many of these promises were feasible if Trump actually wanted to follow through on them. Instead, the only promises he has kept are the ones that put money in the pockets of Trump and his cronies.
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Re: The Trump Presidency Thread

Post by LordMortis » Wed May 16, 2018 5:53 pm

Holman wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 5:09 pm

President Trump during California #SanctuaryCities Roundtable: "These aren't people. These are animals."
Donald Trump is not a person. He's an animal.

Scratch that. He's simply and clearly a repulsive bigot.

No specifics, so there is nothing specfic to be OUTRAGED over. It's just Trump being a Trump with his bar moved so low, not even Tiluck Keisam could get under it.

This remains the gold ring he needs to surpass

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8_fW5vxCTT8

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Re: The Trump Presidency Thread

Post by LordMortis » Wed May 16, 2018 6:56 pm

https://usun.state.gov/remarks/8431
May the next 70 years be ones of strength, of hope, and of peace.
Haley then reportedly concluded by walking out of the meeting as the Palestinian envoy began to speak. Looking for video or transcript to make the truth plain. But every video does the same thing. They show the same picture and make judgement statements.

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Re: The Trump Presidency Thread

Post by El Guapo » Thu May 17, 2018 2:28 pm

13 Inconvenient Truths About What Has Been Happening in Gaza.

Interesting information pointing both directions - among other things, says that the Gaza Blockade is overbroad relative to Israel's security needs (which is something that I have been wondering about / suspecting). Also, turns out that the 8-month baby that died did not actually die from Israeli tear gas, but from a preexisting heart condition.

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Re: The Trump Presidency Thread

Post by Isgrimnur » Thu May 17, 2018 2:44 pm

El Guapo wrote:
Thu May 17, 2018 2:28 pm
Also, turns out that the 8-month baby that died did not actually die from Israeli tear gas, but from a preexisting heart condition.
Smoove covered in the the Infectious Diseases thread. Anything that causes breathing issues such as restricted airflow from a breathing mask can end up causing a coronary episode.
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Re: The Trump Presidency Thread

Post by LawBeefaroni » Thu May 17, 2018 2:49 pm

It seems like splitting hairs unless the allegation is that she was already dead and brought to the protests as a fake victim.
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Re: The Trump Presidency Thread

Post by Isgrimnur » Thu May 17, 2018 2:53 pm

LawBeefaroni wrote:
Thu May 17, 2018 2:49 pm
It seems like splitting hairs unless the allegation is that she was already dead and brought to the protests as a fake victim.
Depending on who's asking, contributory factors vs. cause matters. In the geopolitical nature of this discussion, each side is going to pick a different version. For those without a dog in the fight, it's more likely to matter.
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Re: The Trump Presidency Thread

Post by El Guapo » Thu May 17, 2018 3:01 pm

Isgrimnur wrote:
Thu May 17, 2018 2:53 pm
LawBeefaroni wrote:
Thu May 17, 2018 2:49 pm
It seems like splitting hairs unless the allegation is that she was already dead and brought to the protests as a fake victim.
Depending on who's asking, contributory factors vs. cause matters. In the geopolitical nature of this discussion, each side is going to pick a different version. For those without a dog in the fight, it's more likely to matter.
Its part of the broader issue of whether the IDF is responding within some reasonable bounds in its use of force. I don't think anyone's disputing that the IDF can and should turn back people from the border. The key issue is whether the IDF is doing enough in terms of applying non-lethal force. Tear gas is one of those non-lethal methods. A lot of articles / takes, including one by the Onion were portraying this as the IDF essentially intentionally killing a baby with tear gas. If, on the other end, they're dispersing a crowd via tear gas, and they're unaware that there's a baby with a heart condition within that crowd, then their actions look different.

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Re: The Trump Presidency Thread

Post by LordMortis » Thu May 17, 2018 3:03 pm

Edit: NM I know better than to engage here.
Last edited by LordMortis on Thu May 17, 2018 3:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The Trump Presidency Thread

Post by Isgrimnur » Thu May 17, 2018 3:03 pm

EG, agreed. And I doubt that the protesters sent in their permission slips and medical history forms.
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