Judd Legum wrote:Quick analysis of Executive Order:
1. The plan is to keep families detained indefinitely together, which is illegal
2. Trump would like the courts or Congress to make that not illegal
3. If Congress or the judiciary doesn't change the law, families will continue to be split up
1) I'm not sure I agree with that analysis and you can opine all day and get nowhere.
2) In effort to find out how he informs his opinion I see he states "The fact the White House is no immediately releasing the text of the Executive Order is a tell" the time stamp is from after document was already published at whitehouse.gov. I don't know who he is but he does't give me much reason to take his word for things.
What exactly was wrong with the laws we already had? Immigrants were detained together and their asylum was studied then they were either allowed in or turned away. What was wrong with that?
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I am Dyslexic of Borg, prepare to have your ass laminated.
I guess Ray Butts has ate his last pancake. http://steamcommunity.com/id/daehawk
"Has high IQ. Refuses to apply it"
Daehawk wrote: ↑Wed Jun 20, 2018 4:49 pmWhat was wrong with that?
Because that didn't send a message. The intent of this is to dissuade anyone from making the journey in the first place. Because now if they show up with children, they need to understand they'll be taken away. That's what makes it extra gross.
em2nought wrote: ↑Wed Jun 20, 2018 4:36 pm
What you guys are "actually" mad about if you were honest, but you're not. You don't care about these children's rights any more than you do about those of a fetus. I'll admit that God forgive me, I don't care if you choose to abort your own children either.
Daehawk wrote: ↑Wed Jun 20, 2018 4:49 pmWhat was wrong with that?
Because that didn't send a message. The intent of this is to dissuade anyone from making the journey in the first place. Because now if they show up with children, they need to understand they'll be taken away. That's what makes it extra gross.
Also worth mentioning is how Drumpf's chief advisor on immigration was described (by someone who presumably views the administration favorably):
“Stephen actually enjoys seeing those pictures at the border. He’s a twisted guy, the way he was raised and picked on. There’s always been a way he’s gone about this. He’s Waffen-SS.”
— An outside White House adviser, quoted by Vanity Fair, about Trump adviser Stephen Miller.
Fireball wrote: ↑Wed Jun 20, 2018 10:12 am
For-profit media failed us. What a shock.
NPR wasn't much better.
Actually, I'll go even farther. For profit media gives us The New Yorker, the Atlantic, 538, and Rachel Maddow just off the top of my head.
That's light years better coverage than NPR, though I appreciate them as well as they are my go to source in the morning.
MSNBC is just as vapid as the other cable stations. But, yes, my "for-profit media" comment was mostly about the cancer on our society that is cable news.
Daehawk wrote: ↑Wed Jun 20, 2018 4:49 pm
What exactly was wrong with the laws we already had? Immigrants were detained together and their asylum was studied then they were either allowed in or turned away. What was wrong with that?
What was wrong with it is that there is no way that process can be completed in less than twenty days. The only solution is immigration camps or hire a shitload of people to expedite the process.
It's not just about the lack of resources to expedite the process. Asylum seekers had been detained during the Obama administration, too - sometimes for months (which was actually contrary to the official administration policy but ICE and immigration courts would demand bail amounts too high for the families to afford).
The change is now that if you automatically press charges against asylum seekers - which was never done before, even if they were detained - they are now guaranteed to be ineligible for asylum because they now have a misdemeanor conviction on their record. So Sessions's "zero tolerance" policy essentially eliminated any possibility for these people to actually apply for asylum - they just get deported because they are "criminals".
em2nought wrote: ↑Wed Jun 20, 2018 4:36 pm
What you guys are "actually" mad about if you were honest, but you're not. You don't care about these children's rights any more than you do about those of a fetus. I'll admit that God forgive me, I don't care if you choose to abort your own children either.
I imagine that his sentiments mirror those of the average citizen who has substituted nationalism for humanity in our world's long history of genocides. He has stopped being a troll and has become a warning sign over the last few months. This is where we're going if we aren't vigilant.
This was just horrible but there is a certain amount of sweet delicious satisfaction I am getting out of this. The last couple of days I’ve been in a “debate” with a number of die hard Trumpers on another friends Facebook page. They kept insisting that Trump had to do this, that he had to enforce the law. They also kept denigrating “liberals” for caring about these lawbreakers”. Today after Trump reversed course I had the great satisfaction of posting this:
“Wow, kind of quiet over here, isn’t? Now that the president has done what he said he couldn’t do and fixed this on his own, I have some questions of my own.
So many of you claim that he had to do this, that it was “the law” and he had no choice (as the president himself claimed and blamed the Democrats). So is the president now failing to enforce the law, is he now breaking the law that many of you insisted must be followed? Or is it really that he was lying the whole time saying that he couldn’t fix this? It’s either one or the other - he’s either breaking the law or he lied to you and America when he said there was nothing he could. Take your pick - he’s either a lawbreaker or a liar, your choice.
I’ll also quote the president today from the signing:
“Ivanka feels very strongly. My wife feels very strongly about it. I feel strongly about it," Mr. Trump said. "I think anybody with a heart would feel strongly about it."
Do you agree with this statement? And that foreigner Melania, I always knew she was one of those evil liberals!”
Last edited by Grifman on Wed Jun 20, 2018 8:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions. – G.K. Chesterton
em2nought wrote: ↑Wed Jun 20, 2018 4:36 pm
What you guys are "actually" mad about if you were honest, but you're not. You don't care about these children's rights any more than you do about those of a fetus. I'll admit that God forgive me, I don't care if you choose to abort your own children either.
I imagine that his sentiments mirror those of the average citizen who has substituted nationalism for humanity in our world's long history of genocides. He has stopped being a troll and has become a warning sign over the last few months. This is where we're going if we aren't vigilant.
This is Republican philosophy taken to it's logical conclusion. Keep taxes below the bare minimum because I've got mine and I don't give a shit if things outside my gated community need fixing. Shut down health care for the poor because they should just work harder if they want to see a doctor. Keep immigrants out, including legal ones, unless they are going to make you more money. They shouldn't have chosen to have been born in violent, gang ridden countries if they wanted to be safe, after all. Being brown is an extra minus.
It all comes down to an inability to empathize, I'm convinced of it.
Grifman wrote: ↑Wed Jun 20, 2018 7:59 pm
This was just horrible but there is a certain amount of sweet delicious satisfaction I am getting out of this. The last couple of days I’ve been in a “debate” with a number of die hard Trumpers on another friends Facebook page. They kept insisting that Trump had to do this, that he had to enforce the law. They also kept denigrating “liberals” for caring about these lawbreakers”. Today after Trump reversed course I had the great satisfaction of posting this:
“Wow, kind of quiet over here, isn’t? Now that the president has done what he said he couldn’t do and fixed this on his own, I have some questions of my own.
So many of you claim that he had to do this, that it was “the law” and he had no choice (as the president himself claimed and blamed the Democrats). So is the president now failing to enforce the law, is he now breaking the law that many of you insisted must be followed? Or is it really that he was lying the whole time saying that he couldn’t fix this? It’s either one or the other - he’s either breaking the law or he lied to you and America when he said there was nothing he could. Take your pick - he’s either a lawbreaker or a liar, your choice.
I’ll also quote the president today from the signing:
“Ivanka feels very strongly. My wife feels very strongly about it. I feel strongly about it," Mr. Trump said. "I think anybody with a heart would feel strongly about it."
Do you agree with this statement? And that foreigner Melania, I always knew she was one of those evil liberals!”
No it just means he enforces it in a way you won't like either. Keep the children detained with the parents and accelerate denying the asylum of those that don't qualify(which is most) and deport them. Of course the cost of that will be astronomical, but hey at least they are together.
Rip wrote: ↑Wed Jun 20, 2018 8:16 pm
No it just means he enforces it in a way you won't like either. Keep the children detained with the parents and accelerate denying the asylum of those that don't qualify(which is most) and deport them. Of course the cost of that will be astronomical, but hey at least they are together.
I see you don't have the guts to answer the questions either - lawbreaker of liar? So far crickets from everyone on that page which I find very amusing. Yesterday they were going at it non-stop, now it's just totally silent. Very amusing, I think they are in shock
Last edited by Grifman on Wed Jun 20, 2018 8:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions. – G.K. Chesterton
Rip wrote: ↑Wed Jun 20, 2018 8:16 pm
No it just means he enforces it in a way you won't like either. Keep the children detained with the parents and accelerate denying the asylum of those that don't qualify(which is most) and deport them. Of course the cost of that will be astronomical, but hey at least they are together.
Funny, the assumptions people make. I don't believe in open borders and I have no problem deporting those that don't qualify - I don't believe we can take in every person that wants to come here. And I am of mixed feelings detaining the children and parents together in a safe environment. Republicans complain about "catch and release" but the latest numbers from Syracuse University which tracks this sort of thing says that 84% do show for their hearings. And I've also read that a new program using ankle bracelets is over 99% effective. So who's wanting to waste money now when cheaper and effective means are available and much cheaper?
The vast majority of individuals who in recent years were released on bond as a result of their custody hearing before an immigration judge turned up for their court case. During FY 2015, for example, court records indicate that 86 percent of individuals that were released from detention turned up for their court hearing when it was finally held. The remaining 14 percent were recorded "in absentia." That is, they failed to appear and the immigration judge - in their absence -- granted the government's request for a removal order to deport them.[6]
Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions. – G.K. Chesterton
gbasden wrote: ↑Wed Jun 20, 2018 8:14 pm
This is Republican philosophy taken to it's logical conclusion. Keep taxes below the bare minimum because I've got mine and I don't give a shit if things outside my gated community need fixing. Shut down health care for the poor because they should just work harder if they want to see a doctor. Keep immigrants out, including legal ones, unless they are going to make you more money. They shouldn't have chosen to have been born in violent, gang ridden countries if they wanted to be safe, after all. Being brown is an extra minus.
It all comes down to an inability to empathize, I'm convinced of it.
That's not true at all. I don't know how we got here, but this is not the Republican party I was raised to believe in. This is one that abandoned principle and signed up for cable TV ratings.
Of course it's arguable they started that in 1969 and now the evidence is just irrefutable.
Last edited by noxiousdog on Thu Jun 21, 2018 10:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
Black Lives Matter
"To wield Grond, the mighty hammer of the Federal Government, is to be intoxicated with power beyond what you and I can reckon (though I figure we can ball park it pretty good with computers and maths). Need to tunnel through a mountain? Grond. Kill a mighty ogre? Grond. Hangnail? Grond. Spider? Grond (actually, that's a legit use, moreso than the rest)." - Peacedog
noxiousdog wrote: ↑Wed Jun 20, 2018 9:41 pm
That's not true at all. I don't know how we got here, but this is not the Republican party I was raised to believe in. This is one that abandoned principal and signed up for cable TV ratings.
Of course it's arguable they started that in 1969 and now the evidence is just irrefutable.
I think it started with Newt Gringich - that's just my first quick thought. I think he brought a take no prisoners attitude that did not exist before.
Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions. – G.K. Chesterton
em2nought wrote: ↑Wed Jun 20, 2018 4:36 pm
What you guys are "actually" mad about if you were honest, but you're not. You don't care about these children's rights any more than you do about those of a fetus. I'll admit that God forgive me, I don't care if you choose to abort your own children either.
I imagine that his sentiments mirror those of the average citizen who has substituted nationalism for humanity in our world's long history of genocides. He has stopped being a troll and has become a warning sign over the last few months. This is where we're going if we aren't vigilant.
It's like the author of that article was drawing a picture of his enemy while looking through a window, but it wasn't a window, it was a mirror, and he ended up drawing a picture of himself only flipped from left to right.
em2nought wrote: ↑Wed Jun 20, 2018 4:36 pm
What you guys are "actually" mad about if you were honest, but you're not. You don't care about these children's rights any more than you do about those of a fetus. I'll admit that God forgive me, I don't care if you choose to abort your own children either.
I imagine that his sentiments mirror those of the average citizen who has substituted nationalism for humanity in our world's long history of genocides. He has stopped being a troll and has become a warning sign over the last few months. This is where we're going if we aren't vigilant.
It's like the author of that article was drawing a picture of his enemy while looking through a window, but it wasn't a window, it was a mirror, and he ended up drawing a picture of himself only flipped from left to right.
Wait, how did I end up contributing in R&P? I feel a bit dirty, like I need a shower.
Default wrote: ↑Wed Jun 20, 2018 10:52 pm
All I have to say as a former Republican is that you have lost me for all eternity.
Eat shit and die, GOP.
No thanks on a diet, now that we have the Space Force we plan to nuke y'all from orbit. With the advent of the internet, it's the only way to be sure liberalism doesn't spread like the Spanish Flu. Someday there will be a guy like this on a distant planet talking about Space Force, but he'll be like
those guys didn't give up anything for free. We had to pay for their damn technology. Cheap bastards.
Octavious wrote: ↑Wed Jun 20, 2018 2:32 pm
Quote from someone on FB who is highly educated and highly in the deplorable group.
"The real crime is the one being committed against my grandchildren. My taxes pay for the housing, healthcare, food, education, and recreation for these illegal immigrant children and they are living under better conditions than they have ever known in their native countries. Because my taxes are paying for this, funds that should be used to make a better life for my grandchildren are being spent on illegal aliens. That is the real crime."
Seriously I just want to punch this guy in the nuts. This is a good representation of a classic Trump supporters opinion. I seriously don't get how you can live with so much hate and disregard for other people.
This is the same guy taking a tax cut that his grandchildren will have to pay back in the future. People like this as hypocrites.
Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions. – G.K. Chesterton
Seriously I just want to punch this guy in the nuts. This is a good representation of a classic Trump supporters opinion. I seriously don't get how you can live with so much hate and disregard for other people.
There is a word for this outlook.....stupidity.
--------------------------------------------
I am Dyslexic of Borg, prepare to have your ass laminated.
I guess Ray Butts has ate his last pancake. http://steamcommunity.com/id/daehawk
"Has high IQ. Refuses to apply it"
em2nought wrote: ↑Wed Jun 20, 2018 11:18 pm
No thanks on a diet, now that we have the Space Force we plan to nuke y'all from orbit. With the advent of the internet, it's the only way to be sure liberalism doesn't spread like the Spanish Flu.
Nah, true Americans will kick all you traitors out first. You’ll have to go crying back to Putin and wear all those funny hats while eating borscht all the time. We may wave at you through our beautiful wall that we built to keep Trumpies out, though.
<sometimes you just wanna play the same game as a troll>
Default wrote: ↑Wed Jun 20, 2018 10:52 pm
All I have to say as a former Republican is that you have lost me for all eternity.
Eat shit and die, GOP.
It's weird to have no political identity in a nation that wants to define everyone by identity politics. I was never a republican but I've always leaned heavy conservative libertarian with a few seriously progressive views that were distinctly not libertarian. I want to think that I still lean conservative but really that name is so tainted with baggage that I don't want it. There is very little in US politics left that I want to conserve. Protect the sanctity of what? Hiding behind the constitution and excusing the state of my nation because "we are nation of laws" and we're just following the laws? I can't even say something as basic as "Doesn't matter. You respect the office" any more.
My midlife crisis, as it turns out, is political. I hope I come out on the other side OK as I hope my family and friends and country does.
noxiousdog wrote: ↑Wed Jun 20, 2018 9:41 pm
That's not true at all. I don't know how we got here, but this is not the Republican party I was raised to believe in. This is one that abandoned principal and signed up for cable TV ratings.
Of course it's arguable they started that in 1969 and now the evidence is just irrefutable.
I think it started with Newt Gringich - that's just my first quick thought. I think he brought a take no prisoners attitude that did not exist before.
Richard Nixon and Ronald Reagan were the ones who started in earnest playing footsie with racists in the South and embracing nonsense about "states rights" to repackage oligarchy-creating economic policies as a fight against supposed "liberal elites". The damage done to America's political system by Nixons abuses and Reagan's embrace of "tell a big lie" politics regarding tax cuts paved the way for the intellectual collapse of the Republican Party and the rise of the alt-right.
Wed Oct 20, 2004 1:17 am
Zarathud: The sad thing is that Barak Obama is a very intelligent and articulate person, even when you disagree with his views it's clear that he's very thoughtful. I would have loved to see Obama in a real debate.
Me: Wait 12 years, when he runs for president. :-)
John Moore, a Pulitzer Prize-winning photographer for Getty Images, has been photographing immigrants crossing the U.S.-Mexico border for years. This week one of his pictures became the most visible symbol of the immigration debate in America.
“This one was tough for me. As soon as it was over, they were put into a van. I had to stop and take deep breaths,” Moore told TIME Tuesday, describing his reaction to the scene of a two-year-old Honduran girl crying as her mother was being detained in McAllen, Texas. “All I wanted to do was pick her up. But I couldn’t.”
Due to the power of the image, which appeared as critics from across the political spectrum attacked President Trump’s now-reversed policy of separating children from parents who are being detained for illegally entering the United States, TIME’s editors selected Moore’s photograph to create a photo illustration, including Trump, to make the July 2, 2018, cover of the magazine.
During cross-examination of one agent, I asked if she was aware that my client was arrested with his 4-year-old daughter. She said no. I was shocked, but this is the game. I asked whether she was the lead investigator, and if she had talked to field agents in this case. She said yes. I asked if it had become known to her that my client had his 4-year-old child with him. Yes, she said, but added that she didn’t know the child was a 4-year-old female.
The judge just glared at her.
This is how it goes. I ask about the child; the government objects; the judge forces the agent to answer. The answer is always the same.
“Do you know the location of the child?” No or unknown.
“Did you provide my client with information as to the location of his child?” No or unknown.
“Did you provide my client with any information as to how he could go about finding his child?” No or unknown.
In a rare instance, one agent said a child was in a particular city — one far from El Paso. But of course, no details were known regarding the child’s specific location.
At another hearing before a different judge, as one of my colleagues asked the agent on the stand about the whereabouts of my client’s child, the prosecutor objected to the relevance of the questions. The judge turned on the prosecutor, demanding to know why this wasn’t relevant. At one point, he slammed his hand on the desk, sending a pen flying. This type of emotional display is unheard of in federal court. I can’t understand this, the judge said. If someone at the jail takes your wallet, they give you a receipt. They take your kids, and you get nothing? Not even a slip of paper?
Black Lives definitely Matter Lorini!
Also: There are three ways to not tell the truth: lies, damned lies, and statistics.
I've seen some people celebrating the new EO, but it's vague enough I don't think we can rest yet, and that fact... that they apparently stole these kids from their parents without any sort of plan to ever reunite them is simply sickening.
As the first lady spoke with officials at a detention facility for immigrant minors on the border about reuniting children with their parents on Thursday afternoon, President Trump told reporters that he’s directed his Cabinet officials to reunite the families his administration ripped apart in the first place.
We need to continue calling all of our elected officials, this isn't a fix when there is no plan for transparency or reuniting families. Call and ask for immediate and substantive action on reuniting parents and their kids. Ask them respectfully to inform U.S. citizens of what is happening to the children of immigrant families entering legally through ports of entry. Ask them to make data quickly available to the public on DHS website. Track data on parent-child reunifications and average lengths of separations. Track data on unaccounted children with regular updates on the DHS website. Request that they stop hiding what the inside of the living quarters include and immediately allow press access in the name of transparency. Be clear with them that the humanitarian crisis is ongoing and maybe throw a little Alex on em':
“America is great because she is good. If America ceases to be good, America will cease to be great.”
― Alexis de Tocqueville
My blog (mostly photos): Fort Ephemera - My Flickr Photostream
“You only get one sunrise and one sunset a day, and you only get so many days on the planet. A good photographer does the math and doesn’t waste either.” ―Galen Rowell
What kind of crazy-ass trolling is this? Could this really just be coincidental? Like Nielsen and Miller eating at Mexican restaurants, I swear we're all being trolled.
How is that not a statement? Either she is a complete idiot or she is just as cruel as the rest of these people. Either way it is yet another ridiculous episode. Anyone remember Michelle Obama's arms or the tan suit? Oh I wish for those days. At least we had a semblance of a competent government comparatively which says a lot considering how dysfunctional it was with the interaction between the administration and the Republican-led Congress.
My guess is it's poor judgement (and being tone deaf to the outrage at hand) and the statement (and there is a statement to wear something like that) was more about the fact she is criticized for her fashion sense when she shows up to take in humanitarian causes, like how the liberal social news went crazy over her wearing high heels to Houston before she ever even arrived.
You don't care about these children's rights any more than you do about those of a fetus. 
