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Too Soon To Start Thinking About 2020?

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malchior
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Re: Too Soon To Start Thinking About 2020?

Post by malchior » Thu Jul 11, 2019 6:04 pm

pr0ner wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 5:08 pm
Democrats do like to eat their own sometimes, but Lacy Clay is a black man, so if he wants to rip POC for using the race card, I would say he's earned that right.
Some might hazard a guess that he was chosen to speak out for his ability to carry this torch. This is almost certainly Pelosi orchestrating a lesson via proxies and her comments that goaded AOC into misplaying her hand. I reckon she may calculate it is a good time to kick the crap out of some upstarts before they do any real damage.

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Re: Too Soon To Start Thinking About 2020?

Post by pr0ner » Thu Jul 11, 2019 6:56 pm

malchior wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 6:04 pm
pr0ner wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 5:08 pm
Democrats do like to eat their own sometimes, but Lacy Clay is a black man, so if he wants to rip POC for using the race card, I would say he's earned that right.
Some might hazard a guess that he was chosen to speak out for his ability to carry this torch. This is almost certainly Pelosi orchestrating a lesson via proxies and her comments that goaded AOC into misplaying her hand. I reckon she may calculate it is a good time to kick the crap out of some upstarts before they do any real damage.
Clay is also getting primaried by a candidate (who is a black woman) who is to his left politically and has been endorsed by the "Justice Democrats" (AOC and her crew) so I'm sure that played a role, too.
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Re: Too Soon To Start Thinking About 2020?

Post by tjg_marantz » Thu Jul 11, 2019 11:20 pm

pr0ner wrote:Democrats do like to eat their own sometimes, but Lacy Clay is a black man, so if he wants to rip POC for using the race card, I would say he's earned that right.
Yeah I'm pissed at aoc, not him.

She's becoming a real hindrance to the election next year.
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Re: Too Soon To Start Thinking About 2020?

Post by Isgrimnur » Thu Jul 11, 2019 11:38 pm

If she takes heat away from the nominee...
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Re: Too Soon To Start Thinking About 2020?

Post by Paingod » Fri Jul 12, 2019 10:41 am

This morning my wife was depressed. When I asked her why, she said that Democrats are pushing a platform that includes legalizing prostitution. She went on to explain that as much as Trump makes her stomach churn and she wishes he had never been born, if a Democrat that supports legalization is put forward on the ballot, she'd have to vote Trump.

She knows with every fiber of her being that Trump is a greedy, amoral, lying sack of shit and hates him for it. She'd still vote for him over someone who'd try to go about legalizing hookers, even if it would never happen. She cited Harris as the person she heard about wanting this.

I couldn't get my head around it - but she had to admit that she finally understands how people can get behind a candidate if it means not accepting something they feel even more strongly about.
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Re: Too Soon To Start Thinking About 2020?

Post by NickAragua » Fri Jul 12, 2019 10:48 am

Well, I'm sure prostitution being illegal will be of great comfort when the Trumpstaffel is knocking down the door as the floods bear down. Always reminds me of this perry bible fellowship comic: https://pbfcomics.com/comics/penguin-enemy/

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Re: Too Soon To Start Thinking About 2020?

Post by LordMortis » Fri Jul 12, 2019 11:00 am

I have a hard time empathizing with those rallying behind prostitution prohibition. You set up a line for consenting adults that can be contained and taxed and monitored and regulated and then you absolutely destroy those that fall outside of the regulated consenting adults framework. Prostitution does not have to equate to slavery nor even power over the impoverished, abused, or those with mental/emotional issues.

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Re: Too Soon To Start Thinking About 2020?

Post by Smoove_B » Fri Jul 12, 2019 11:03 am

Paingod wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 10:41 am
if a Democrat that supports legalization is put forward on the ballot, she'd have to vote Trump.
This seems like a totally rational and reasonable thought process and not something that in any way came out of reading Facebook posts.

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Re: Too Soon To Start Thinking About 2020?

Post by Defiant » Fri Jul 12, 2019 11:08 am

To be fair, several candidates, including Harris, do support decriminalizing prostitution:
"I think when you're talking about consenting adults, I think that yes, we should really consider that we can't criminalize consensual behavior as long as no one is being harmed," Harris told The Root in February
"I'm open to decriminalization," the Massachusetts Democrat said in a statement at the time, though cautioning that she did not want to "undermine legal protections for the most vulnerable."
And when BuzzFeed News surveyed candidates in May, three more candidates voiced their support for decriminalization: New Jersey Sen. Cory Booker, Hawaii Rep. Tulsi Gabbard, and former Sen, Mike Gravel.
link

I'm supportive of the position (provided it's regulated to keep people safe). Though why the issue has come up now when there are so many far more important issues...

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Re: Too Soon To Start Thinking About 2020?

Post by Isgrimnur » Fri Jul 12, 2019 11:13 am

It's legal in the more-sporadically-populated counties in Nevada. It's legal in a number of countries. One has to expect that one of these places has a decent handling on making sure that it's not an exploitative atmosphere.

But then, I don't think any person familiar with Paingod's wife expects reasonable debate when it comes to women's issues.
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Re: Too Soon To Start Thinking About 2020?

Post by noxiousdog » Fri Jul 12, 2019 11:13 am

Defiant wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 11:08 am

I'm supportive of the position (provided it's regulated to keep people safe). Though why the issue has come up now when there are so many far more important issues...
It's because of the success being seeing with decriminalizing marijuana. Prostitution is the next logical step.
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Re: Too Soon To Start Thinking About 2020?

Post by Defiant » Fri Jul 12, 2019 11:19 am

noxiousdog wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 11:13 am
Defiant wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 11:08 am

I'm supportive of the position (provided it's regulated to keep people safe). Though why the issue has come up now when there are so many far more important issues...
It's because of the success being seeing with decriminalizing marijuana. Prostitution is the next logical step.
Wouldn't decriminalizing marijuana at the federal level be the next logical step? :wink:

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Re: Too Soon To Start Thinking About 2020?

Post by Paingod » Fri Jul 12, 2019 11:24 am

Isgrimnur wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 11:13 am
It's legal in the more-sporadically-populated counties in Nevada. It's legal in a number of countries. One has to expect that one of these places has a decent handling on making sure that it's not an exploitative atmosphere.

But then, I don't think any person familiar with Paingod's wife expects reasonable debate when it comes to women's issues.
I did tiptoe around it as well as I could, but honestly. Her biggest concern is that women are being used and more husbands will cheat on their wives when it's legal to visit prostitutes. She cited the legalization of marijuana and the increase of its use as proof, and I countered with someone opting to try a legal substance isn't even in the same ball park as someone violating the sanctity of their relationship; people who want to cheat will and legal hookers aren't going to drive men to it. I had to admit that I felt it wasn't my place to tell two consenting adults what they can and can't do (a concept she's largely agreeable to), and that if this meant women were less likely to be forced into sex slavery because of regulation, I wouldn't oppose it. She remained surprisingly non-hostile towards my statement, but remained adamant that when pay-for-sex is legal, more men will cheat. She even reminded me of the equivalency in her mind of pornography use being equal to visiting a prostitute in terms of cheating men.

It went on for a while. I was ... not surprised at her view, but very disappointed that she'd vote Trump over this issue.
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Re: Too Soon To Start Thinking About 2020?

Post by Isgrimnur » Fri Jul 12, 2019 11:25 am

Sound like it went better than expected, at least.
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Re: Too Soon To Start Thinking About 2020?

Post by Paingod » Fri Jul 12, 2019 11:27 am

Isgrimnur wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 11:25 am
Sound like it went better than expected, at least.
Sort of, yeah. Still not a fun thing to have lingering in the house. I expect when I get home today the atmosphere there will be something like a skunk died three weeks ago under the floorboards.
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Re: Too Soon To Start Thinking About 2020?

Post by Isgrimnur » Fri Jul 12, 2019 11:28 am

Paingod wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 11:27 am
Isgrimnur wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 11:25 am
Sound like it went better than expected, at least.
Sort of, yeah. Still not a fun thing to have lingering in the house. I expect when I get home today the atmosphere there will be something like a skunk died three weeks ago under the floorboards.
To quote the great philosopher, Red Forman:

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Re: Too Soon To Start Thinking About 2020?

Post by Paingod » Fri Jul 12, 2019 11:35 am

Isgrimnur wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 11:28 am
Paingod wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 11:27 am
Isgrimnur wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 11:25 am
Sound like it went better than expected, at least.
Sort of, yeah. Still not a fun thing to have lingering in the house. I expect when I get home today the atmosphere there will be something like a skunk died three weeks ago under the floorboards.
To quote the great philosopher, Red Forman:

Image
I don't want to go off-topic of politics too much more, but yeah - she goes down that road sometimes and that's pretty much how I respond. "I get that you're trying to pick a fight, but I'm just not interested right now." It goes about as we as you'd predict, but with a generally better result for my sanity than if I had engaged in the battle. The fights she wants to pick are over things outside our control and lives. I don't have energy for that.
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Re: Too Soon To Start Thinking About 2020?

Post by LordMortis » Fri Jul 12, 2019 11:46 am

Paingod wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 11:24 am
Her biggest concern is that women are being used
That's precisely what one would hope to mitigate against by regulating transactions among consenting adults. Or more specifically women and minors being abused.
and more husbands will cheat on their wives when it's legal to visit prostitutes.
That I can't help with, other than legal records. Much like the other side, I have no evidence but doubt the needle would move on this. To my mind, cheaters will see the legal documents as more of problem than they do the existing paperworkless channels. Cheaters gonna cheat and people who are attracted to cheater and gonna be attracted to cheaters. Fallout sucks. I don't see legal and regulated prostitution moving that needle.
She cited the legalization of marijuana and the increase of its use as proof,
I don't doubt for a second that prostitution increase would happen and immediately so. Even in this age of social media, we are a repressed society. However, allegorically, I don't see increase of abused pot dealers or an increase of people smoking dope in secrecy to keep it from their loved ones. Admittedly, I'm not looking for these phenomena.
when pay-for-sex is legal, more men will cheat.
Again in my mind, I don't see the change. I *do* see more men devaluing their relationships with women (and vice versa but in our misogynistic society, the power is on men devaluing women. See metoo Harvey Weinstein Epstein etc...). I *do* see an increase in financial ruin by those seeking prostitutes to fulfill their urges. It sucks. Seek help. Like you would gambling or drinking or pot or video games or eating away your emotions and all the other self destructive impulses or compulsions we are prone to.

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Re: Too Soon To Start Thinking About 2020?

Post by Paingod » Fri Jul 12, 2019 11:52 am

LordMortis wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 11:46 am
Paingod wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 11:24 am
Her biggest concern is that women are being used
That's precisely what one would hope to mitigate against by regulating transactions among consenting adults. Or more specifically women and minors being abused.
I went poking around for some kind of data on that, and the proposal by Harris and (others?) to legalize may not have the impact they want. Apparently in Germany, where it's been legal since the 1800's, the problem is that sex trafficked woman are sold out as legit sex workers and it can be hard to detect the difference and hard to get a court case to stick.

Ultimately it may not do anything to protect women if it gives the traffickers a legal smokebomb to hide inside of.
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Re: Too Soon To Start Thinking About 2020?

Post by LordMortis » Fri Jul 12, 2019 12:00 pm

Paingod wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 11:52 am
I went poking around for some kind of data on that, and the proposal by Harris and (others?) to legalize may not have the impact they want. Apparently in Germany, where it's been legal since the 1800's, the problem is that sex trafficked woman are sold out as legit sex workers and it can be hard to detect the difference and hard to get a court case to stick.

Ultimately it may not do anything to protect women if it gives the traffickers a legal smokebomb to hide inside of.
If the way we propose to regulate prostitution leaves foreseen obstacles big enough for human traffickers to hide behind or for pimps and traffickers to be confused legal prostitution then that proposal needs to be shot down and prohibition stays until we have better plan. Going in with eyes open to abuse and slavery has to be even above going in the a mind on health concerns. The concern for cheating husbands is tertiary.

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Re: Too Soon To Start Thinking About 2020?

Post by stessier » Fri Jul 12, 2019 12:48 pm

538 breaks down who has qualified for the third debate and how close the remainder are to making it.

There's a nice table in there, but it's a table, not a graphic, so I can't figure out a good way to embed it.
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Re: Too Soon To Start Thinking About 2020?

Post by Isgrimnur » Fri Jul 12, 2019 12:49 pm

Screenshot/snipping tool, rehost, post.
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Re: Too Soon To Start Thinking About 2020?

Post by Alefroth » Fri Jul 12, 2019 1:00 pm

LordMortis wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 11:00 am
Prostitution does not have to equate to slavery nor even power over the impoverished, abused, or those with mental/emotional issues.
Yet it always will. That's not an argument against legalization.

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Re: Too Soon To Start Thinking About 2020?

Post by Kraken » Fri Jul 12, 2019 1:05 pm

Smoove_B wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 11:03 am
Paingod wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 10:41 am
if a Democrat that supports legalization is put forward on the ballot, she'd have to vote Trump.
This seems like a totally rational and reasonable thought process and not something that in any way came out of reading Facebook posts.
I suppose we all have our red lines. I won't say it's trivial; clearly it's not, to Paingod's wife or to however many 100s of thousands of sex-care workers are out there -- but the issue wasn't even on my radar until just now, and it still doesn't crack my top 25 concerns.

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Re: Too Soon To Start Thinking About 2020?

Post by Zarathud » Fri Jul 12, 2019 1:07 pm

Support the guy who is proven to sleep with prostitutes and pedophiles to prevent immorality?

This insanity is why the Democratic Party needs to be careful of radical proposals.
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Re: Too Soon To Start Thinking About 2020?

Post by stessier » Fri Jul 12, 2019 1:17 pm

Isgrimnur wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 12:49 pm
Screenshot/snipping tool, rehost, post.
work, work, work. Blech. ;)
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Re: Too Soon To Start Thinking About 2020?

Post by Paingod » Fri Jul 12, 2019 2:08 pm

Zarathud wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 1:07 pm
Support the guy who is proven to sleep with prostitutes and pedophiles to prevent immorality?
As long as Trump agrees that what he's doing can remain illegal, she's with him I guess. :think:
Kraken wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 1:05 pm
Smoove_B wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 11:03 am
Paingod wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 10:41 am
if a Democrat that supports legalization is put forward on the ballot, she'd have to vote Trump.
This seems like a totally rational and reasonable thought process and not something that in any way came out of reading Facebook posts.
I suppose we all have our red lines. I won't say it's trivial; clearly it's not, to Paingod's wife or to however many 100s of thousands of sex-care workers are out there -- but the issue wasn't even on my radar until just now, and it still doesn't crack my top 25 concerns.
I'm mostly of the opinion that the one and only thing that matters in this upcoming election is finding whoever will push us back on track to keeping the planet from turning into an inhospitable fireball before the end of my children's lives. We can worry about sex workers once we know they have a future to worry about.
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Re: Too Soon To Start Thinking About 2020?

Post by tjg_marantz » Fri Jul 12, 2019 4:37 pm

Lazy bunch.

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Re: Too Soon To Start Thinking About 2020?

Post by Fireball » Fri Jul 12, 2019 5:10 pm

Decriminalizing or even legalizing prostitution would be a very, very good thing for most (perhaps close to all) sex workers. We have other ways to combat human trafficking than criminalizing prostitution.

And the concern that husbands would cheat more if prostitution were legal strikes me as odd. First, unless it's your spouse, it's none of your business who anyone is having sex with. Second, if people want to cheat the world is full of opportunities — and it's not like prostitutes are uncommon today.

A few years ago the Federal government cracked down on a website that allowed gay male escorts to advertise, safely connect with clients, make their own choices on who to meet, etc. The result hasn't been a reduction a large reduction in the amount of sex work performed by gay male escorts; it has, however, made that work less safe.
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Re: Too Soon To Start Thinking About 2020?

Post by Isgrimnur » Fri Jul 12, 2019 5:11 pm

tjg_marantz wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 4:37 pm
Lazy bunch.
If I do it for him, he'll never learn.
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Re: Too Soon To Start Thinking About 2020?

Post by tjg_marantz » Fri Jul 12, 2019 5:12 pm

Isgrimnur wrote:
tjg_marantz wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 4:37 pm
Lazy bunch.
If I do it for him, he'll never learn.
Kinda like replying to trolls eh? LoL
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Re: Too Soon To Start Thinking About 2020?

Post by Fireball » Fri Jul 12, 2019 5:13 pm

tjg_marantz wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 4:37 pm
Lazy bunch.

Enlarge Image
These thresholds remain too low. I hope after the third debate they raise the polling threshold for participation to 5% and the donor threshold to, say, 250,000.
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Re: Too Soon To Start Thinking About 2020?

Post by tjg_marantz » Fri Jul 12, 2019 9:29 pm

Bring back the league of women voters!
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Re: Too Soon To Start Thinking About 2020?

Post by milo » Fri Jul 12, 2019 11:43 pm

Bring it back from where?
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Re: Too Soon To Start Thinking About 2020?

Post by Defiant » Sat Jul 13, 2019 8:53 am

I assume bring them back to host the debates.

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Re: Too Soon To Start Thinking About 2020?

Post by tjg_marantz » Sat Jul 13, 2019 10:38 am

Defiant wrote:I assume bring them back to host the debates.
Yup. That's how we got Ross Perrot up there. Of course that's also how both parties said okay, you're out.
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Re: Too Soon To Start Thinking About 2020?

Post by Holman » Sat Jul 13, 2019 4:57 pm

I didn't even know Seth Moulton was running.

I also don't know who he is.
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Re: Too Soon To Start Thinking About 2020?

Post by Kraken » Sat Jul 13, 2019 5:06 pm

Holman wrote:
Sat Jul 13, 2019 4:57 pm
I didn't even know Seth Moulton was running.

I also don't know who he is.
War hero wunderkind from MA. Possibly the most conservative D in the field, he's a man with a big ego. (Not my congressman, and I don't much like him.)

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Re: Too Soon To Start Thinking About 2020?

Post by Holman » Sat Jul 13, 2019 5:16 pm

Kraken wrote:
Sat Jul 13, 2019 5:06 pm
Holman wrote:
Sat Jul 13, 2019 4:57 pm
I didn't even know Seth Moulton was running.

I also don't know who he is.
War hero wunderkind from MA. Possibly the most conservative D in the field, he's a man with a big ego. (Not my congressman, and I don't much like him.)
Sounds like you'd be happier with PA's more liberal Navy hero Joe Sestak, who is also polling at zero.
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Re: Too Soon To Start Thinking About 2020?

Post by Pyperkub » Sun Jul 14, 2019 12:14 pm

Fireball wrote:
tjg_marantz wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 4:37 pm
Lazy bunch.

Enlarge Image
These thresholds remain too low. I hope after the third debate they raise the polling threshold for participation to 5% and the donor threshold to, say, 250,000.
Looking at the click ad /headline above the list, I thought it was going to be a what if nba free agents had to qualify for the debates table!
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