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Racism in America (with data)

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Re: Racism in America (with data)

Post by hepcat »

RunningMn9 wrote:
Mon Jun 29, 2020 5:48 pm
Maybe it’s time we stop worshipping people from ye olden times? We can still learn about them - but actually learn about them instead of being fed the worship propaganda that we are fed today.
Just as you pointed out that literally no one was asking for a complete ban on Huckleberry Finn, I would point out that literally no one is asking that we worship historical figures with racist pasts. :wink:
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Re: Racism in America (with data)

Post by RunningMn9 »

hepcat wrote:Just as you pointed out that literally no one was asking for a complete ban on Huckleberry Finn, I would point out that literally no one is asking that we worship historical figures with racist pasts.
And yet we keep naming shit after them, and the crabbing when someone wants to change it.
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Re: Racism in America (with data)

Post by hepcat »

Is anyone actually naming things after known racists in the last few decades at least? Not being a smart ass, just genuinely curious.

In any case, I don’t believe anyone here is saying we should be defending the honor of any of the characters mentioned here. I myself am just concerned with a scenario in which we stop teaching the Iliad because Homer lived in an age in which slavery was acceptable and yet he didn’t try to stop it and even owned a few, or we stop teaching the words of Martin Luther King Jr. because he may or may not have been a serial adulterer. I’m more concerned with the fruits of their respective genius and less about the men and women themselves at this point. Again, you’ll say that’s not being advocated here, and I agree. But as I said earlier, this is a slippery slope.

I tend to agree with Obama.
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Re: Racism in America (with data)

Post by Kraken »

hepcat wrote:
Mon Jun 29, 2020 3:12 pm
Wayne was a big supporter of the House Un-American Activities Committee so I was never a fan of the man, but my love of westerns means I do watch his movies from time to time (I mean...True Grit and The Searchers are friggin' American classics!).
+1. A few years ago I went on a John Wayne binge; I've seen a lot of his obscure movies as well, such as the patriotic WW2 flag-wavers. Nobody else made John Wayne movies quite like John Wayne.

When I can, I try to separate the art from the person. Clint Eastwood is a douche, too, yet one of America's greatest directors. Last night when I made a comment admiring Elizabeth Moss' acting, Wife told me she's a Scientologist. Gahh! I'd rather not know things like that.

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Re: Racism in America (with data)

Post by El Guapo »

RunningMn9 wrote:
Mon Jun 29, 2020 8:35 pm
hepcat wrote:Just as you pointed out that literally no one was asking for a complete ban on Huckleberry Finn, I would point out that literally no one is asking that we worship historical figures with racist pasts.
And yet we keep naming shit after them, and the crabbing when someone wants to change it.
How do you feel about naming things and putting up statues of George Washington and Thomas Jefferson?

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Re: Racism in America (with data)

Post by Remus West »

RunningMn9 wrote:
Mon Jun 29, 2020 4:21 pm
Remus West wrote:If it is part of the process of making it better than yes.
Has it been part of the process of making it better? It’s much easier to hold the position that it’s worth it when you aren’t the one being harmed by it.

And yes, I know that there are plenty that are harmed by it that also support keeping it as is, and their opinion is more valid than mine.

Maybe I would amend my position to simply say that I don’t think it’s for me to decide. I’m not the one harmed by it, and I receive no value whatsoever in keeping it unedited.

I’m cool with whatever.
I think this amended position is one I can understand better but I do think you are underestimating it if you think you are not being harmed by it. Certainly not even close to the same extent as those feeling its direct pressure but we are all harmed by hatred.
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Re: Racism in America (with data)

Post by YellowKing »

Whenever I run across controversial subjects, I like to step back and ask myself "Did I care about this before the news told me to?" If the answer is no, then I'm good with whatever. Because obviously if I didn't care about it before the controversy, what should I care what happens to it now?

I guarantee 95% of the people protesting against the removal of Confederate statues downtown never visited them, never took a picture of them, drove past them a thousand times and didn't even bat an eye.

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Re: Racism in America (with data)

Post by El Guapo »

YellowKing wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 10:24 am
Whenever I run across controversial subjects, I like to step back and ask myself "Did I care about this before the news told me to?" If the answer is no, then I'm good with whatever. Because obviously if I didn't care about it before the controversy, what should I care what happens to it now?

I guarantee 95% of the people protesting against the removal of Confederate statues downtown never visited them, never took a picture of them, drove past them a thousand times and didn't even bat an eye.
Confederate statues are a special case, though. They are uniquely indefensible, in that while with a lot of historical figures there is a complicated legacy (e.g., Jefferson played a uniquely important role in establishing the world's first modern democracy, but also owned slaves), with Confederate figures there really isn't (insofar as their primary legacy was a failed insurrection against that democracy for the purpose of maintaining slavery).

Also, Confederate statues are not just historical markers being revisited. They were largely put up during Reconstruction and during the Civil Rights movement for the specific purpose of sending the message "fuck you, this country is not for you" to people working to create genuine racial equality.

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Re: Racism in America (with data)

Post by Unagi »

El Guapo wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 10:39 am
YellowKing wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 10:24 am
Whenever I run across controversial subjects, I like to step back and ask myself "Did I care about this before the news told me to?" If the answer is no, then I'm good with whatever. Because obviously if I didn't care about it before the controversy, what should I care what happens to it now?

I guarantee 95% of the people protesting against the removal of Confederate statues downtown never visited them, never took a picture of them, drove past them a thousand times and didn't even bat an eye.
Confederate statues are a special case, though. They are uniquely indefensible, in that while with a lot of historical figures there is a complicated legacy (e.g., Jefferson played a uniquely important role in establishing the world's first modern democracy, but also owned slaves), with Confederate figures there really isn't (insofar as their primary legacy was a failed insurrection against that democracy for the purpose of maintaining slavery).

Also, Confederate statues are not just historical markers being revisited. They were largely put up during Reconstruction and during the Civil Rights movement for the specific purpose of sending the message "fuck you, this country is not for you" to people working to create genuine racial equality.
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Re: Racism in America (with data)

Post by LordMortis »

El Guapo wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 10:39 am
YellowKing wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 10:24 am
Whenever I run across controversial subjects, I like to step back and ask myself "Did I care about this before the news told me to?" If the answer is no, then I'm good with whatever. Because obviously if I didn't care about it before the controversy, what should I care what happens to it now?

I guarantee 95% of the people protesting against the removal of Confederate statues downtown never visited them, never took a picture of them, drove past them a thousand times and didn't even bat an eye.
Confederate statues are a special case, though. They are uniquely indefensible, in that while with a lot of historical figures there is a complicated legacy (e.g., Jefferson played a uniquely important role in establishing the world's first modern democracy, but also owned slaves), with Confederate figures there really isn't (insofar as their primary legacy was a failed insurrection against that democracy for the purpose of maintaining slavery).

Also, Confederate statues are not just historical markers being revisited. They were largely put up during Reconstruction and during the Civil Rights movement for the specific purpose of sending the message "fuck you, this country is not for you" to people working to create genuine racial equality.
In sympathy, I was a bit shocked to hear that Columbus statues were coming down. And then I thought to myself, we had a Columbus statue to take down? I suppose there is a beef there and I never knew it. OtOH, if they wanted to take down the Spirit of Detroit or Joe Louis Fist, I'd up in arms nor even Thaddeus Kosciuszko might raise an eyebrow in why on earth would you do that (though he actually has no ties to the area)?

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Re: Racism in America (with data)

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YellowKing wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 10:24 am
Whenever I run across controversial subjects, I like to step back and ask myself "Did I care about this before the news told me to?" If the answer is no, then I'm good with whatever. Because obviously if I didn't care about it before the controversy, what should I care what happens to it now?
You're coming at this from a place of good intentions, but be careful not to use this as a universal measuring stick. Perhaps you didn't care about something prior to news coverage because you didn't really know it was a problem or the real motivations behind each side. You might have become more educated through the news and thus realized that there is an issue you really should have cared more about in the first place.

But fuck the Confederate statues, obviously (Columbus too, IMO).
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Re: Racism in America (with data)

Post by RunningMn9 »

El Guapo wrote:How do you feel about naming things and putting up statues of George Washington and Thomas Jefferson?
I’m ambivalent.
And in banks across the world
Christians, Moslems, Hindus, Jews
And every other race, creed, colour, tint or hue
Get down on their knees and pray
The raccoon and the groundhog neatly
Make up bags of change
But the monkey in the corner
Well he's slowly drifting out of range

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Re: Racism in America (with data)

Post by Blackhawk »

LordMortis wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 10:53 am
In sympathy, I was a bit shocked to hear that Columbus statues were coming down. And then I thought to myself, we had a Columbus statue to take down? I suppose there is a beef there and I never knew it.
Here's the beef.
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Re: Racism in America (with data)

Post by El Guapo »

Blackhawk wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 12:16 pm
LordMortis wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 10:53 am
In sympathy, I was a bit shocked to hear that Columbus statues were coming down. And then I thought to myself, we had a Columbus statue to take down? I suppose there is a beef there and I never knew it.
Here's the beef.
Yup. That's something that's under-appreciated about Columbus. Most of the history we learn departs from him after he sails to the Americas. But he didn't just facilitate the genocide of the Natives by making Europe aware of them - he *proactively* participated in and started that genocide.

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Re: Racism in America (with data)

Post by YellowKing »

ImLawBoy wrote:You're coming at this from a place of good intentions, but be careful not to use this as a universal measuring stick.
I had a bit more clarification to my post originally that I cut for time.

But yeah, totally agree. I'm coming at it from the angle of -- people shouldn't be outraged over changes to something they never cared about in the first place. However, a lot of people have a knee-jerk reaction to change even though that change doesn't affect them at all.

As an example, my home theme park of Carowinds tore down their wooden roller coaster Thunder Road to make room for a water park expansion. There was much outrage from the coaster community. How dare they tear down this beloved wooden coaster?

But you know what? Every time I went to the park, even on the most packed of days, there was nobody in line for it. If everyone loved it so much, then why didn't they ride it? Meanwhile the water park was always slammed to the gills. What did you expect from a business standpoint? Keep a coaster that require constant costly maintenance and inspection that nobody rides, or expand your waterpark that everyone loves? It was a no-brainer from a business standpoint.

If I learn new information (as I did with the statues), of course I'm all for the change if it makes sense. I guess my point was to illustrate yet another indefensible aspect of the statue removals. Not only is it indefensible from a historic standpoint, it's indefensible from a logical standpoint.

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Re: Racism in America (with data)

Post by Jaymann »

Reminds me of a comedy bit:

Columbus: This is India, right?

Natives: No, this is a completely different continent.

Columbus: Nah, you're Indians.

I remember it was Louis CK.
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Re: Racism in America (with data)

Post by hepcat »

I wonder if Lovecraft will fly under the radar a while longer?
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Re: Racism in America (with data)

Post by LawBeefaroni »

So does Trump get a portrait in the National Gallery?
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Re: Racism in America (with data)

Post by hitbyambulance »

hepcat wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 3:00 pm
I wonder if Lovecraft will fly under the radar a while longer?
i was going to mention this earlier, but i think the point was made. i can think of many novels/stories with very strong colonialist/xenophobic/anti-semitic/racial sentiments from the 1800s and early 1900s. it's worth remembering that H.P. Lovecraft is still kind of a niche author in wider society, but i know in geek circles he is already getting his reckoning
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Re: Racism in America (with data)

Post by ImLawBoy »

hitbyambulance wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 3:07 pm
hepcat wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 3:00 pm
I wonder if Lovecraft will fly under the radar a while longer?
i was going to mention this earlier, but i think the point was made. i can think of many novels/stories with very strong colonialist/xenophobic/anti-semitic/racial sentiments from the 1800s and early 1900s.
I think it'll come to the fore with the TV version of Lovecraft Country coming out on HBO in August (I think).
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Re: Racism in America (with data)

Post by Unagi »

LawBeefaroni wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 3:03 pm
So does Trump get a portrait in the National Gallery?
Of course he will. I mean, maybe not if he refuses to leave office and forces the military to remove him from the White House, etc... but unless he's found guilty of treason, he'll have his portrait.

I'd like to think no one will ever hang his portrait in the White House though.

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Re: Racism in America (with data)

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hitbyambulance wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 3:07 pm
hepcat wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 3:00 pm
I wonder if Lovecraft will fly under the radar a while longer?
i was going to mention this earlier, but i think the point was made. i can think of many novels/stories with very strong colonialist/xenophobic/anti-semitic/racial sentiments from the 1800s and early 1900s. it's worth remembering that H.P. Lovecraft is still kind of a niche author in wider society, but i know in geek circles he is already getting his reckoning
All the modern editions I have come with introductions that are sure to point out his racism and xenophobia.

Even the Call of Cthulhu RPG calls it out very clearly in the rulebook introduction.
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Re: Racism in America (with data)

Post by hepcat »

I think we're past the point where pointing it out is sufficient when it comes to anyone with a racist past. Times are changing.
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Re: Racism in America (with data)

Post by YellowKing »

I think Lovecraft is different than say, Huckleberry Finn in that Lovecraft's creation has grown far beyond his original stories. It has been adapted into numerous works in film, television, comics, video games, board games, etc. by thousands of different authors, so the cat's a bit out of the bag. Same with Conan, where the original stories had disparaging depictions of "dark-skinned natives" and the like.

I think it's great that Lovecraft's problems are being prominently laid out in the open (my complete book of Lovecraft stories spends PAGES on it in the introduction), but I think his stuff has also been abstracted to the point that it's never going to just disappear.

One of the reasons I loved Lovecraft Country so much was that it showed how we can acknowledge an author's flaws, and we can even play in his world, but we don't have to support his views.

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Re: Racism in America (with data)

Post by Holman »

Lovecraft was never in danger of being added to anyone's curriculum (except as a case study in what we're talking about).

I think we're too easily sliding between the threat of censorship and the simple collapse of someone's status or reputation. "Cancellation" has a lot more to do with the latter than the former.

Birth of a Nation is America's most infamous blockbuster, but you can still buy a copy if you want one.
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Re: Racism in America (with data)

Post by hitbyambulance »

YellowKing wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 4:06 pm
Same with Conan, where the original stories had disparaging depictions of "dark-skinned natives" and the like.
Robert E. Howard was going to be one i called out, along with Edgar Rice Burroughs (Tarzan, etc) and H. Rider Haggard (the Allan Quatermain series, etc)

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Re: Racism in America (with data)

Post by Holman »

hitbyambulance wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 4:46 pm
YellowKing wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 4:06 pm
Same with Conan, where the original stories had disparaging depictions of "dark-skinned natives" and the like.
Robert E. Howard was going to be one i called out, along with Edgar Rice Burroughs (Tarzan, etc) and H. Rider Haggard (the Allan Quatermain series, etc)
These examples bring up an interesting point.

I'll go out on a limb and say that almost nobody reads these authors anymore. They're not cultural standard-bearers, and we really only encounter them as niche curiosities or special interests.

However, their cultural legacy is enormous: they helped to inspire the 1970's role-playing games that grew into such a prominent part of today's pop culture, movies, media, video games, and etc.

THAT culture, however, has begun to cancel away the prejudices baked into the antecedent source material. Just this week there have been huge Twitter discussions about how the next version of D&D will eliminate the idea that whole races or species of monsters adhere to a specific alignment. The idea that all orcs or kobolds are "Evil" will be leaving the game. It'll be up to the DM or scenario designer to determine whether the creatures you encounter are aligned for or against your values.

So here we have a clear example of using the best a creator makes available without having to endorse the errors in their thinking. D&D would be impossible without Burrough's simplistic racial thinking (or Tolkien's more elevated equivalent), but their imaginative invention of fantastic realms remains inspirational and valuable and good.
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Re: Racism in America (with data)

Post by Isgrimnur »

Now I want to see a campaign with an old, racist Ranger that still adheres to his racial preferred enemy bonuses despite all the people telling him that we don't do that anymore.

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Re: Racism in America (with data)

Post by LawBeefaroni »

The problem is conflating real world "races" with races in D&D, which are basically species. A goblin is a different species, drow are different species. I know it comes from a time when real world races were almost considered different species. But it is a problematic comparison nonetheless.
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Re: Racism in America (with data)

Post by Isgrimnur »

It is when the species are sentient.

It's one thing to hate all constructs or be a master hunter against beasts. It's quite another to lump Mind Flayers in with Flumphs just because they're both abberations.

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Re: Racism in America (with data)

Post by Holman »

An old-school TSR writer pointed out on Twitter that in the very first published AD&D module ("Steading of the Hill Giant Chief"), players had the opportunity to work with orc slaves to defeat the giants and win their freedom.
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Re: Racism in America (with data)

Post by Victoria Raverna »

RunningMn9 wrote:
Mon Jun 29, 2020 12:59 pm
Blackhawk wrote:
Mon Jun 29, 2020 12:54 pm
If you want to learn from your mistakes, you have to know what the mistakes were. If we want to do better than when we were 'bad', we have to be able to see what 'bad' looked like.
In all honesty, do I need to see the N word used in a book to know that it's wrong and that I shouldn't do it?
Maybe not you, but some future kids won't know N word is wrong and bad if he never read or hear about it.

But by then maybe the N word is okay to use again.

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Re: Racism in America (with data)

Post by Madmarcus »

Holman wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 5:33 pm
hitbyambulance wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 4:46 pm
YellowKing wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 4:06 pm
Same with Conan, where the original stories had disparaging depictions of "dark-skinned natives" and the like.
Robert E. Howard was going to be one i called out, along with Edgar Rice Burroughs (Tarzan, etc) and H. Rider Haggard (the Allan Quatermain series, etc)
These examples bring up an interesting point.

I'll go out on a limb and say that almost nobody reads these authors anymore. They're not cultural standard-bearers, and we really only encounter them as niche curiosities or special interests.

However, their cultural legacy is enormous: they helped to inspire the 1970's role-playing games that grew into such a prominent part of today's pop culture, movies, media, video games, and etc.

THAT culture, however, has begun to cancel away the prejudices baked into the antecedent source material. Just this week there have been huge Twitter discussions about how the next version of D&D will eliminate the idea that whole races or species of monsters adhere to a specific alignment. The idea that all orcs or kobolds are "Evil" will be leaving the game. It'll be up to the DM or scenario designer to determine whether the creatures you encounter are aligned for or against your values.
It amazes me that D&D (in all it's forms) still had "racial alignments." I can understand where it came from in the wargaming roots. Yet even in the early 80's we (the people I gamed with) dismissed it out of hand as a worthless concept. We weren't inherently progressive; we were fine with the idea that most orcs lived in a society that was chaotic evil. Or that dwarves have a resistant nature due to their connection to stone and thus are less likely to be strongly anything (we never could decide if they should tend towards true neutral or neutral good). But it was always up to the DM to determine whether how any specific creature was aligned.

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Re: Racism in America (with data)

Post by Madmarcus »

Isgrimnur wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 5:37 pm
Now I want to see a campaign with an old, racist Ranger that still adheres to his racial preferred enemy bonuses despite all the people telling him that we don't do that anymore.
Did anyone ever think of that as anything other that specific training? Yes it breaks down when you start dealing with campaigns spanning continent wide areas but even with the purely "racial" bonuses like dwarves against certain thing (was it orc, ogres, and giants?) we always felt that it you encountered different dwarves they might have different historical enemies at the DM's whim. Even with the broad categories like abberations (did that exist in AD&D back in the day?) it seems like it is training in tricks and tactics that work only because these beings have some form of similarity in addition to their differences (that might include intelligence).

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RunningMn9
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Re: Racism in America (with data)

Post by RunningMn9 »

Victoria Raverna wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 7:55 pm
Maybe not you, but some future kids won't know N word is wrong and bad if he never read or hear about it.

But by then maybe the N word is okay to use again.
Can we just stop with this nonsense? No one needs to see the N word in a novel to know that it's wrong. Just stop. The argument for leaving it in is that is how the author wrote it. Full stop. If you want to publish Mark Twain's book, publish his book.

But stop with this having to leave it unedited because how else will we learn about racism angle.
And in banks across the world
Christians, Moslems, Hindus, Jews
And every other race, creed, colour, tint or hue
Get down on their knees and pray
The raccoon and the groundhog neatly
Make up bags of change
But the monkey in the corner
Well he's slowly drifting out of range

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Smoove_B
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Re: Racism in America (with data)

Post by Smoove_B »

Meanwhile, the President is sounding his dog megaphone over Twitter.


At the request of many great Americans who live in the Suburbs, and others, I am studying the AFFH housing regulation that is having a devastating impact on these once thriving Suburban areas. Corrupt Joe Biden wants to make them MUCH WORSE. Not fair to homeowners, I may END!
For those unaware:
"The AFFH rule sets out a framework for local governments, States & public housing agencies to take meaningful actions to overcome historic patterns of segregation, promote fair housing choice, and foster inclusive communities that are free from discrimination."
130K Americans dead from a virus, protests, and he's blathering about ending housing regulations.

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YellowKing
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Re: Racism in America (with data)

Post by YellowKing »

I've given up on Trump actually doing anything productive from here to November. So at this point, every day he spends rambling about something that does nothing to help his re-election chances is a good day.

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Max Peck
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Re: Racism in America (with data)

Post by Max Peck »

Given that he's a racist real estate developer, this seems like an issue that is near and dear to his heart. :coffee:
Time and tide melt the snowman.

There are worlds out there where the sky is burning, where the sea's asleep and the rivers dream, people made of smoke and cities made of song. Somewhere there's danger, somewhere there's injustice and somewhere else the tea is getting cold. Come on, Ace, we've got work to do.
-- The Doctor

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Jaymann
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Re: Racism in America (with data)

Post by Jaymann »

I may END.
Don't say that unless SERIOUS.
Jaymann
]==(:::::::::::::>

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stessier
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Re: Racism in America (with data)

Post by stessier »

Episode 4 of Uncomfortable Conversations with a Black Man is up. I liked this one more than the ones that used celebrities.

I require a reminder as to why raining arcane destruction is not an appropriate response to all of life's indignities. - Vaarsuvius
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