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Political Randomness

For discussion of religion and politics

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LawBeefaroni
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Re: Political Randomness

Post by LawBeefaroni »

noxiousdog wrote: Wed Mar 31, 2021 8:08 am
LawBeefaroni wrote: Tue Mar 30, 2021 3:45 pm Played? 4 women over 100 years, only two qualified for their spot, only one made the cut. None were on the tour. It's like a Rhéaume taking the ice.
Huh. So it's almost like they are at a huge physical disadvantage. I'm sure adding trans women wouldn't hurt their sports at all.
Exactly. IIRC, Sörenstam led in driving accuracy but still didn't make the cut. She was dead last in driving distance.
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Re: Political Randomness

Post by dbt1949 »

I've been thinking about our immigration problem,
I look back to the 1800s and early 1900s and America said to it's immigrants "Welcome to America! Now get off our front lawn!" So the immigrants knew they were on their own to survive and prosper or die.
Now a days immigrants want to come to our country to be taken care of. No more do we have "Get off our font lawns!" Now we take care of legal (and illegal) immigrants. To some degree or another. This encourages people to immigrate here. Throw their children across the border evidently.
Now I believe if we didn't give them any services it would discourage them quite a bit. Of course now a days that's not going to happen. So we continue on with the same old thing and no answers in sight.
Just a random thought with not being able to sleep.
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Re: Political Randomness

Post by Paingod »

dbt1949 wrote: Thu Apr 01, 2021 2:14 amthe immigrants knew they were on their own to survive and prosper or die.
To be fair, I think that the average person in the 1800's tended to struggle to survive, and while we needed people as a nation we didn't have the resources to hand anything out. Life expectancy in 1850 was around 37 years, but lots of children died before they got to age 5, skewing those numbers. There would have been riots in the streets if people rolling off the boats were given anything more than anyone else had.
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Re: Political Randomness

Post by malchior »

I don't think we are "taking care" of them as well. They give us their relatively cheap labor. They got sick and died from COVID in disproportionate numbers yet aren't universally eligible for the vaccine. In 2017 the National Academies of Science published a big study which measured their impact to fiscal budgets to be about net zero. So by "taking care" of them, they might have a couple of kids in school and have access to emergency Medicaid. Seems like more than a fair trade.
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Re: Political Randomness

Post by dbt1949 »

Quite a few are on medicaid. Ever been to the Social Security office? Social Services office is full of them too. Low rent housing? How many get jobs? I beg to differ with you.
What happens to them when they get accepted or dropped off by coyotes? That I don't know. Some are taken in by churches and some by family members or friends. But what about the rest?
We need to find some kind of compromise.
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Re: Political Randomness

Post by noxiousdog »

https://immigrationforum.org/article/fa ... -benefits/

Not eligible for federal benefits.

Now, that being said, there is a strain on community services from public schools to low income resources. In addition all the new children are US citizens and eligible.

There's a balance somewhere.
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Re: Political Randomness

Post by Blackhawk »

A lot of that is propaganda that doesn't actually play out that way in practice. The immigrants (and let's be honest - we're talking Hispanic immigrants), as a whole, aren't coming here for free handouts. They're coming here for opportunities that they lack at home. Opportunities to find actual, paying jobs that don't just use them as tools to be broken and discarded, opportunities for their kids the get an education and get real, professional jobs. I have worked with a lot of immigrants, and they put the average American worker to shame. Americans are lazy They aren't 'taking our jobs', they're taking the jobs we avoid. They're friendly, they're loyal, they're intensely focused on family and community.

Some do end up on welfare. Some of that is due to the fact that Hispanics are discriminated against, are less likely to get a job if white people are also applying (etc, etc - you know the spiel.) But some quick math shows that the US was, in 2019:

60.1% white
18.5% Hispanic
12.2% Black

And yet, using SNAP numbers, households receiving welfare were:

75.8% white
13.6% Hispanic
12.5% Black

Who's getting the handouts? Who is being taken care of? The whole thing about "Now a days immigrants want to come to our country to be taken care of" simply doesn't match reality. It's a talking point that people use against immigrants, but it's about as accurate as if Trump were the one saying it. Want to address the problem of immigrants sponging off of Americans? Give them a path to citizenship so that they can do the work that they want to do, that they came here to do.

Besides, we're going to need the people. The US population is flat. We've got almost no growth for the first time in over a century. The birth rate is low, while our population is old, meaning that as people start to die off in record numbers due to the baby boomers aging, we won't be replacing them fast enough. Our population is stagnant, and we are on the verge of shrinking - and that was before COVID increased the death rate and decreased the birth rate. That's bad. Smaller workforce, less production, fewer taxpayers, fewer people spending money, more elderly people drawing from Social Security with fewer young people paying in. We need hardworking immigrants if we want to prevent the economy from entering a downward spiral. And immigrants are, by and large, hard workers. More so than most Americans, who put in more hours than many other nations, but do less with those hours.
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Re: Political Randomness

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Re: Political Randomness

Post by dbt1949 »

I'll grant you immigrants want to work but what percentage of them are working? And of course a lot of them that are working under the table but that's not their fault.
I guess here locally we have a disproportionate of out of work immigrants that clouds my judgement. 30 years ago Don Tyson imported thousands of Mexicans to work his plants. Locals didn't want to work crappy jobs for crappy pay. While the Mexicans were grateful for the jobs. (If Tyson had paid living wages the jobs would have been taken here locally and you'd be paying a lot more for chicken.) They brought in their families and as the workers in the family were making didley squat and had families of 6-8 or more people social services kicked in to give them benefits. Social Security kicked in to give them benefits too.
This may not be trend nationally but it sure is around here.
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Re: Political Randomness

Post by Isgrimnur »

Arkansas
In 2018, 143,709 immigrants (foreign-born individuals) comprised 5 percent of the population.
...
55,000 undocumented immigrants comprised 41 percent of the immigrant population and 2 percent of the total state population in 2016.
...
99,331 immigrant workers comprised 7 percent of the labor force in 2018.
...
Undocumented immigrants comprised 3 percent of Arkansas’s workforce in 2016.

Immigrants in Arkansas have contributed over a billion dollars in taxes.
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Re: Political Randomness

Post by Pyperkub »

Isgrimnur wrote: Thu Apr 01, 2021 1:43 pm Arkansas
In 2018, 143,709 immigrants (foreign-born individuals) comprised 5 percent of the population.
...
55,000 undocumented immigrants comprised 41 percent of the immigrant population and 2 percent of the total state population in 2016.
...
99,331 immigrant workers comprised 7 percent of the labor force in 2018.
...
Undocumented immigrants comprised 3 percent of Arkansas’s workforce in 2016.

Immigrants in Arkansas have contributed over a billion dollars in taxes.
don't forget that last bit they all pay taxes, especially sales taxes. Undocumented immigrants also don't get the benefits of other taxes - medicare, social security, etc, but most are actively still actually paying those taxes, and will see zero benefits from them. Of course, some of that is mitigated by the employers paying under the table, and also using ICE etc as a threat to keep their undocumented labor controlled and working for pennies under threat of deportation, family separation, etc. . There's a reason yesterday was a State Holiday for Cesar Chavez and Farm Worker unionization in the face of employer abuses in CA.
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Re: Political Randomness

Post by Blackhawk »

To be fair, 97.6% of the US population are immigrants. This is just a question of recency.
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Re: Political Randomness

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Re: Political Randomness

Post by dbt1949 »

Arkansas lifted it's state mandate requiring one to wear a mask. Now the legislature is trying to pass a law banning the governor from ever issuing a mask mandate again.
Trump loving morons.
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Re: Political Randomness

Post by Daehawk »

The infrastructure of this country is in dire need of repair but at least the GOP is same old same old in trying to stop it because its not them doing it. Can always depend on them to do the exact opposite of what should be done for America.
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Re: Political Randomness

Post by Holman »

Today is Easter.

Much prefer my Nazis Nuremberged.
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Re: Political Randomness

Post by El Guapo »

WTF interview with Hunter Biden.

Pretty interesting to listen to. For anyone who doesn't know Marc Maron is a recovered alcoholic, so he spent most of the interview (which I haven't finished yet) focused on Hunter's struggles with substance abuse, mixed in with Hunter's life story. Also interesting that Hunter pushes back on his public image as some bum with no career, when he went to Yale Law, worked as of counsel for some pretty established places, was on multiple corporate and non-profit boards. Obviously his career has to have been shaped by his family name, and his career is pockmarked with issues related to his addictions, but the idea that he's a simple grifter seems misplaced.

Also just super interesting how much he sounds like his dad.
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Re: Political Randomness

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When I was young and watched things like Adam 12 the cops in those days seemed to do a lot less killing than now a days. They were just as racist and brutalized people for no good reason just like today but they didn't seem to kill people as often. I'm probably wrong but it seemed to be less press about such things anyways.
Maybe us civilians acted different than now and the cops had less reason to shoot. Maybe there's just so many more guns out there it makes the cops nervous.
Just the ramblings of an olde man after reading about a couple of people that were shot and killed for trying to break into a car. I mean nobody's life was at stake here.
<sigh>
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Re: Political Randomness

Post by LordMortis »

dbt1949 wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 11:01 pm When I was young and watched things like Adam 12 the cops in those days seemed to do a lot less killing than now a days. They were just as racist and brutalized people for no good reason just like today but they didn't seem to kill people as often. I'm probably wrong but it seemed to be less press about such things anyways.
Maybe us civilians acted different than now and the cops had less reason to shoot. Maybe there's just so many more guns out there it makes the cops nervous.
Just the ramblings of an olde man after reading about a couple of people that were shot and killed for trying to break into a car. I mean nobody's life was at stake here.
<sigh>
I wonder about such things as well. How much is access to information and if we are truly have less regard for our fellow man. I don't know. I'd think it the opposite. that our collective stomach for violence is getting more sensitive. So few of us are raised to kill things. We aren't the hunters and livestock butchers we were even in the 70s and before but is there something else divorcing us from a sense of empathy for the people around us?

(I personally feel a bit of my soul get crushed every time I kill a mouse breaking in to my house or when I see an animal carcass at the side of the road. I come from hunting, fishing, and butchering family and I could never do that myself, even if I eat meat.)
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Re: Political Randomness

Post by Holman »

A lot has changed, but I'm not sure a black man getting arrested felt any safer then than now.

Use of deadly force definitely seems to have become more common and more normalized today. But under Jim Crow, a black suspect brought in for any reason (including just "questions") might face an extrajudicial beating. It was part of the apparatus of social control.
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Re: Political Randomness

Post by malchior »

I think this reflects how the decadence eating away at our nation. The value of life has diminished greatly for some. Heck it was the whole point of Black Lives Matters. They rightly called out that their lives don't matter and we saw that continue clearly despite all the awareness in what happened during the pandemic. They still died at much higher rates. Our society again expressed that their lives don't matter.

Getting away from that sad reality, perspective wise America was far safer in 2019 than in any year in the 60s by far. I'm stepping over 2020 because it was a shit show for many reasons. Overall violence has generally decreased year over year this century but violence intensified especially amongst the police against people of color. That is a multifactor problem. Yet we've already walked away from addressing it again. Police reform measures at a holistic scale fell apart almost immediately last year. Mostly because our nation has no ability to solve complex problems anymore. It's a clear sign that the decadence effect is real.
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Re: Political Randomness

Post by LordMortis »

malchior wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 10:13 am violence intensified especially amongst the police against people of color.
Has it? Or are we just more aware and acknowledging something that didn't disappear with Jim Crow because we didn't want to know or want it reported? I honestly don't know.
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Re: Political Randomness

Post by Paingod »

LordMortis wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 10:24 am
malchior wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 10:13 am violence intensified especially amongst the police against people of color.
Has it? Or are we just more aware and acknowledging something that didn't disappear with Jim Crow because we didn't want to know or want it reported? I honestly don't know.
I honestly believe we're peeling back the sock that the diabetic has refused to remove for the last 12 years. Things might be getting better now, but in now way should a lack of data about an oppressed population be interpreted as a lack of systematic abuse.
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Re: Political Randomness

Post by malchior »

Especially since despite everything that has happened we still don't bother to count the number of people killed by police. It is generally collected by 3rd parties based on public news accounts largely. The lack of data is intentional and perpetuates the system in the shadows.
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Re: Political Randomness

Post by Jaymann »

This is the danger of woke on steroids. Ask for clarification, get banned.
Within a few weeks, as a result of the fallout from Bhattacharya's question about microagressions, the administration had branded him a threat to the university and banned him from campus. He is now suing UVA for violating his First Amendment rights, and a judge recently ruled that his suit should proceed.

Here was what the student said.

"Thank you for your presentation," said Bhattacharya, according to an audio recording of the event. "I had a few questions, just to clarify your definition of microaggressions. Is it a requirement, to be a victim of microaggression, that you are a member of a marginalized group?"

Adams replied that it wasn't a requirement.

Bhattacharya suggested that this was contradictory, since a slide in her presentation had defined microaggressions as negative interactions with members of marginalized groups. Adams and Bhattacharya then clashed for a few minutes about how to define the term. It was a polite disagreement. Adams generally maintained that microaggression theory was a broad and important topic and that the slights caused real harm. Bhattacharya expressed a scientific skepticism that a microaggression could be distinguished from an unintentionally rude statement. His doubts were wellfounded given that microaggression theory is not a particularly rigorous concept.
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Re: Political Randomness

Post by LawBeefaroni »

He didn't ask for clarification, he tried to make a statement. And he was only "banned" after refusing to meet with admin.


I hate "gotcha" questions like that and he sounds like a dick. Really needs to be listened to.

29m:



Not that his point is wrong exactly but he clearly went in on the attack with no honest intent for a debate. Good med student?

From Reason:
"This student asked a series of questions that were quite antagonistic toward the panel," wrote Kern. "He pressed on and stated one faculty member was being contradictory. His level of frustration/anger seemed to escalate until another faculty member defused the situation by calling on another student for questions. I am shocked that a med student would show so little respect toward faculty members. It worries me how he will do on wards."

According to Bhattacharya's lawsuit, the concern card generated interest from an assistant dean in the medical school, who emailed him and offered to meet. The assistant dean assured him that "I simply want to help you understand and be able to cope with unintended consequences of conversations."

Bhattacharya responded that contrary to anyone's assertions, he had not lost his temper or become frustrated with the panel...
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Re: Political Randomness

Post by El Guapo »

But how is any of that grounds for banning him from campus? Even if he was a dick, or asked an argumentative question...at worst he's a dick, not like he's a danger to anyone.
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Re: Political Randomness

Post by malchior »

LawBeefaroni wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 12:45 pm He didn't ask for clarification, he tried to make a statement. And he was only "banned" after refusing to meet with admin.
I think this mischaracterizes this but then again my view into it is Reason which is a little unreliable. The court will hopefully get the facts on records but still as written, he declined to meet then they incrementally ratcheted pressure on him to comply. That they jumped to 'you need counseling' if described accurately is a complete overreaction.

I hate "gotcha" questions like that and he sounds like a dick. Really needs to be listened to.
I agree the tone sounds off but I still don't get why someone would feel the need to file a complaint. It was a disagreement. I also didn't hear anything there that suggests they should be afraid for the community.

Edit:
Reason wrote:Bhattacharya expressed a scientific skepticism that a microaggression could be distinguished from an unintentionally rude statement.


This seems like the money quote for the whole affair potentially. When I listened to the clip I heard a potentially rude jerk. They saw a microaggression and menace to the community.
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Re: Political Randomness

Post by LawBeefaroni »

My first thought listening was INCEL loner but that's probably unfair. However, they presumably know the guy.
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Re: Political Randomness

Post by Jaymann »

El Guapo wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 12:49 pm But how is any of that grounds for banning him from campus? Even if he was a dick, or asked an argumentative question...at worst he's a dick, not like he's a danger to anyone.
This was my thought. Now First Amendment rights do not protect you from the consequences of your speech, but this reaction seems way over the top.

Side note: Is this a required course for a med student?
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Re: Political Randomness

Post by El Guapo »

LawBeefaroni wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 1:12 pm My first thought listening was INCEL loner but that's probably unfair. However, they presumably know the guy.
Still not anywhere close to banning from campus territory. I mean, when I was in college anytime a speaker came to campus you could guarantee that someone was going to ask an angry argumentative question. I remember one time Ben Stein spoke and someone got up and asked "What was it like being part of the most criminal administration in American history?"

Never did I think to myself "that person shouldn't be allowed anywhere near campus."
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Re: Political Randomness

Post by LawBeefaroni »

El Guapo wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 1:17 pm
LawBeefaroni wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 1:12 pm My first thought listening was INCEL loner but that's probably unfair. However, they presumably know the guy.
Still not anywhere close to banning from campus territory. I mean, when I was in college anytime a speaker came to campus you could guarantee that someone was going to ask an angry argumentative question. I remember one time Ben Stein spoke and someone got up and asked "What was it like being part of the most criminal administration in American history?"

Never did I think to myself "that person shouldn't be allowed anywhere near campus."
From what I read, he refused to meet with two deans by essentially saying, "thanks, but there's no problem." Eventually he was hauled before some committee. At the hearing he took photos and recorded video. It was after that that they barred him from campus. It wasn't merely because of his questions at the lecture.



Plus side for him, he should have a great gofundme.
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Re: Political Randomness

Post by malchior »

LawBeefaroni wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 1:22 pmFrom what I read, he refused to meet with two deans by essentially saying, "thanks, but there's no problem." Eventually he was hauled before some committee. At the hearing he took photos and recorded video. It was after that that they barred him from campus. It wasn't merely because of his questions at the lecture.
If the story is accurate he declined a suggested meeting and they jumped to 'you need counseling'. I think trying to document your railroading deserves some space here. *He took photos*. Is the fear he was planning his assault? I feel there has to be more but I've seen this happen to people. People are missing the illiberalism rising in academia right now for what it is.

Edit: I just read the intro to the decision here.

It is worse than I thought. He actually had an initial discussion after the workshop. He had a one hour meeting where he describes it as prompts to answer questions about his political views. He then went on his merry way and they sent him a 'warning' letter asking him to ask more professionally. Behind the scenes, they held a judicial process to discuss the complaint. He wasn't told about the original complaint until after he was suspended. They gave him notice of the proceeding on the day of a disciplinary hearing. His response:
[]Who exactly will be present? Do you normally just give students 3 hours to prepare after indirectly threatening to kick them from medical school? Why exactly is my enrollment status up for discussion?
Reasonable questions since up to that point he had no idea there was a review of his enrollment in effect. It's ridiculous if the narrative is true.

Edit 2: Finished it up. They essentially drummed him out of school for not being polite enough at best. At worst, it was because he challenged their political orthodoxy. Neither are a good look. They banned him from campus for 4 years due to dangerous 'forum posts' which the school has still refused to share with him. The court was provided posts by him that the court believed were protected speech and not a threat.
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Re: Political Randomness

Post by LawBeefaroni »

malchior wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 1:27 pm *He took photos*. Is the fear he was planning his assault?

I think it's more that he appeared to be confrontational every step of the way. Or was at least looking for confrontation. I guess there's a lot we don't know.


Fortunately we have a lawsuit to provide more information!
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Re: Political Randomness

Post by malchior »

LawBeefaroni wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 2:55 pm
malchior wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 1:27 pm *He took photos*. Is the fear he was planning his assault?

I think it's more that he appeared to be confrontational every step of the way. Or was at least looking for confrontation. I guess there's a lot we don't know.


Fortunately we have a lawsuit to provide more information!
I agree we don't know alot but I do recommend reading the court's decision on the dismissal because it looks bad for UVA if they are able to prove the story. It'll probably hinge on whether people accept that getting defensive and confrontational were reasonable based on what he was facing. Which was a lot and wasn't all that transparent to him. They were dropping things out of the sky without warning on him. Heck the judge refused to dismiss the qualified immunity for the individually named defendants based on their actions. He might still have an uphill climb there but it ain't nothing.
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Re: Political Randomness

Post by Blackhawk »

dbt1949 wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 11:01 pm When I was young and watched things like Adam 12 the cops in those days seemed to do a lot less killing than now a days. They were just as racist and brutalized people for no good reason just like today but they didn't seem to kill people as often. I'm probably wrong but it seemed to be less press about such things anyways.
1. Back then a handheld camera was big, expensive, and expensive to use. Today almost every person has one. George Floyd would have gone unnoticed, save for a few people making complaints with no evidence.
2. Back then there was no internet. If the local news didn't run with it (and they usually didn't), it would just be a local word-of-mouth issue. Now we hear about it nationally.
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Holman
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Re: Political Randomness

Post by Holman »

Tucker Carlson has now fully endorsed the racist "Great Replacement" panic.
For decades, white nationalists have invoked the specter of nonwhite immigration, multiculturalism, and declining birthrates to argue for the existence of a vast conspiracy aimed at eliminating white populations as a dominant demographic. On Fox News, Tucker Carlson is distributing the language, grievances, goals, and inherent call to action of the conspiracy theory to massive audiences.

On the April 8 broadcast of Fox News Primetime, Carlson offered perhaps his most explicit justification yet for the core belief of the “great replacement” conspiracy theory: that a wave of “Third World” invaders is coming to replace you and reshape your environment, and that you, the audience, should do something about it.
Carlson's own words:

TUCKER CARLSON (GUEST): I'm laughing because this is one of about 10 stories that I know you have covered where the government shows preference to people who have shown absolute contempt for our customs, our laws, our system itself and they are being treated better than American citizens. Now, I know that the left and all the little gatekeepers on Twitter become literally hysterical if you use the term "replacement," if you suggest that the Democratic Party is trying to replace the current electorate, the voters now casting ballots, with new people, more obedient voters from the Third World. But they become hysterical because that's what's happening actually. Let's just say it: That's true.

...

If you change the population, you dilute the political power of the people who live there. So every time they import a new voter, I become disenfranchised as a current voter. So I don't understand what we don't understand cause, I mean, everyone wants to make a racial issue out of it. Oh, you know, the white replacement theory? No, no, no. This is a voting right question. I have less political power because they are importing a brand new electorate. Why should I sit back and take that? The power that I have as an American guaranteed at birth is one man, one vote, and they are diluting it. No, they are not allowed to do it. Why are we putting up with this?
This couldn't be more asinine. The same argument applies to every liberal who turns 18 or every former Republican who turns their back on the GOP. But Tucker *is* precisely racializing it because his whole thing is about immigrants voting differently from nativists.

"Diluting" the political power of people you disagree with is literally what voting is for.
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Freyland
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Re: Political Randomness

Post by Freyland »

The power that I have as an American guaranteed at birth is one man, one vote, and they are diluting it.
If it were physically possible to "dilute" Tucker Carlson, I would buy a bus.
I don't remember where I read this, Cort, maybe it was in the last patch notes, but they said the UAZ really handles the best when... the wheels are actually touching the ground.
--RedF1ve
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Alefroth
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Re: Political Randomness

Post by Alefroth »

Freyland wrote: Fri Apr 09, 2021 7:46 pm
The power that I have as an American guaranteed at birth is one man, one vote, and they are diluting it.
If it were physically possible to "dilute" Tucker Carlson, I would buy a bus.
That seems harsh, but whatever it takes.
Freyland
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Re: Political Randomness

Post by Freyland »

Alefroth wrote: Fri Apr 09, 2021 8:52 pm
Freyland wrote: Fri Apr 09, 2021 7:46 pm
The power that I have as an American guaranteed at birth is one man, one vote, and they are diluting it.
If it were physically possible to "dilute" Tucker Carlson, I would buy a bus.
That seems harsh, but whatever it takes.
I meant for the purpose of transporting immigrants, but I'm amenable to imagination here.
I don't remember where I read this, Cort, maybe it was in the last patch notes, but they said the UAZ really handles the best when... the wheels are actually touching the ground.
--RedF1ve
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