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Will the Democrats self-destruct on reconciliation?

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Carpet_pissr
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Re: Will the Democrats self-destruct on reconciliation?

Post by Carpet_pissr »

Zaxxon wrote: Tue Oct 05, 2021 8:37 am
malchior wrote: Tue Oct 05, 2021 8:21 am moderate GOP members
Not a thing. We need a better term, as moderate can no longer refer to any GOP members.
What is Romney then?
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Re: Will the Democrats self-destruct on reconciliation?

Post by Smoove_B »

Carpet_pissr wrote: Tue Oct 05, 2021 11:51 am What is Romney then?
Moderate in the streets. GOP in the sheets.

(where sheets refers to voting in the Senate)
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Re: Will the Democrats self-destruct on reconciliation?

Post by Zaxxon »

Smoove_B wrote: Tue Oct 05, 2021 11:55 am
Carpet_pissr wrote: Tue Oct 05, 2021 11:51 am What is Romney then?
Moderate in the streets. GOP in the sheets.

(where sheets refers to voting in the Senate)
Yep. Alternately, 'someone who occasionally says the right thing while contributing financially and professionally to an organization opposed to the continued function of democracy in America.' That's a radical, not a moderate.
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Re: Will the Democrats self-destruct on reconciliation?

Post by malchior »

Smoove_B wrote: Tue Oct 05, 2021 11:55 am
Carpet_pissr wrote: Tue Oct 05, 2021 11:51 am What is Romney then?
Moderate in the streets. GOP in the sheets.

(where sheets refers to voting in the Senate)*
*Except for Impeachment votes which is the only sign of a "moderate" anymore. That group is pretty small and soon to be irrelevant in the House.
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Re: Will the Democrats self-destruct on reconciliation?

Post by malchior »

It's sort of amazing to watch one of the Democratic tropes in such vivid color - I'm referring to how they like to negotiate against themselves.

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Re: Will the Democrats self-destruct on reconciliation?

Post by El Guapo »

Smoove_B wrote: Tue Oct 05, 2021 11:55 am
Carpet_pissr wrote: Tue Oct 05, 2021 11:51 am What is Romney then?
Moderate in the streets. GOP in the sheets.

(where sheets refers to voting in the Senate)
This is great.

Romney is genuinely a moderate relative to today's GOP. It's just that today's GOP has gone so bonkers that it's nonetheless misleading to call him a moderate
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Re: Will the Democrats self-destruct on reconciliation?

Post by El Guapo »

FWIW I'm reading generally positive signs on Manchin in terms of getting to a deal. Sounds like it'd be likely to be closer to his number of $1.5B (probably $2B or so), but that a deal can probably get done.

On Sinema...god only knows.
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Re: Will the Democrats self-destruct on reconciliation?

Post by Carpet_pissr »

El Guapo wrote: Tue Oct 05, 2021 12:04 pm
Smoove_B wrote: Tue Oct 05, 2021 11:55 am
Carpet_pissr wrote: Tue Oct 05, 2021 11:51 am What is Romney then?
Moderate in the streets. GOP in the sheets.

(where sheets refers to voting in the Senate)
This is great.

Romney is genuinely a moderate relative to today's GOP. It's just that today's GOP has gone so bonkers that it's nonetheless misleading to call him a moderate
Yep, the term is VERY much relative, and time-sensitive. What would we have/did we call Romney 10 years ago?

It's like we've gone through some kind of political wormhole in the past 15-20 years.
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Re: Will the Democrats self-destruct on reconciliation?

Post by malchior »

El Guapo wrote: Tue Oct 05, 2021 12:06 pm FWIW I'm reading generally positive signs on Manchin in terms of getting to a deal. Sounds like it'd be likely to be closer to his number of $1.5B (probably $2B or so), but that a deal can probably get done.

On Sinema...god only knows.
It'll be interesting to see how much damage a $2T deal does to party unity. It is awfully frail to begin with.
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Re: Will the Democrats self-destruct on reconciliation?

Post by malchior »

Carpet_pissr wrote: Tue Oct 05, 2021 12:09 pm
El Guapo wrote: Tue Oct 05, 2021 12:04 pm
Smoove_B wrote: Tue Oct 05, 2021 11:55 am
Carpet_pissr wrote: Tue Oct 05, 2021 11:51 am What is Romney then?
Moderate in the streets. GOP in the sheets.

(where sheets refers to voting in the Senate)
This is great.

Romney is genuinely a moderate relative to today's GOP. It's just that today's GOP has gone so bonkers that it's nonetheless misleading to call him a moderate
Yep, the term is VERY much relative, and time-sensitive. What would we have/did we call Romney 10 years ago?
A soon-to-be Republican nominee for President. That's how far they've slid since then. He is now an unpopular outlier with much of the GOP.
It's like we've gone through some kind of political wormhole in the past 15-20 years.
It's been an anti-revolution of sorts to say the least.
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Re: Will the Democrats self-destruct on reconciliation?

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El Guapo wrote: Tue Oct 05, 2021 12:06 pm FWIW I'm reading generally positive signs on Manchin in terms of getting to a deal. Sounds like it'd be likely to be closer to his number of $1.5B (probably $2B or so), but that a deal can probably get done.

On Sinema...god only knows.
You know you keep using B when you mean T, right?
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Re: Will the Democrats self-destruct on reconciliation?

Post by El Guapo »

malchior wrote: Tue Oct 05, 2021 12:13 pm
El Guapo wrote: Tue Oct 05, 2021 12:06 pm FWIW I'm reading generally positive signs on Manchin in terms of getting to a deal. Sounds like it'd be likely to be closer to his number of $1.5B (probably $2B or so), but that a deal can probably get done.

On Sinema...god only knows.
It'll be interesting to see how much damage a $2T deal does to party unity. It is awfully frail to begin with.
True. Though who knows what else they're likely to pass anyway. At least I think both wings of the party still trust / can work with Biden, although his influence over Manchin and Sinema (mainly Sinema) seems low.
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Re: Will the Democrats self-destruct on reconciliation?

Post by El Guapo »

stessier wrote: Tue Oct 05, 2021 12:22 pm
El Guapo wrote: Tue Oct 05, 2021 12:06 pm FWIW I'm reading generally positive signs on Manchin in terms of getting to a deal. Sounds like it'd be likely to be closer to his number of $1.5B (probably $2B or so), but that a deal can probably get done.

On Sinema...god only knows.
You know you keep using B when you mean T, right?
Whoopsie!
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Re: Will the Democrats self-destruct on reconciliation?

Post by malchior »

El Guapo wrote: Tue Oct 05, 2021 12:28 pm
malchior wrote: Tue Oct 05, 2021 12:13 pm
El Guapo wrote: Tue Oct 05, 2021 12:06 pm FWIW I'm reading generally positive signs on Manchin in terms of getting to a deal. Sounds like it'd be likely to be closer to his number of $1.5B (probably $2B or so), but that a deal can probably get done.

On Sinema...god only knows.
It'll be interesting to see how much damage a $2T deal does to party unity. It is awfully frail to begin with.
True. Though who knows what else they're likely to pass anyway. At least I think both wings of the party still trust / can work with Biden, although his influence over Manchin and Sinema (mainly Sinema) seems low.
I don't know how much influence Biden has over Manchin. Manchin knows enough to extract the most tax savings for himself and his plutocratic buddies. He also is going to kibosh climate change provisions for sure. He is a complete scumbag but he isn't an idiot.

Sinema is the joker. SNL got that exactly right. This fake maverick shit is just bonkers. She isn't even doing it right. Her life story is one of complete unseriousness from what I've seen including references to her book. I sort of want to dig in because I don't understand how she is a US Senator. Were there no serious contenders? I mean it's Arizona and all but this is just embarrassing.
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Re: Will the Democrats self-destruct on reconciliation?

Post by Smoove_B »

malchior wrote: Tue Oct 05, 2021 12:35 pm Were there no serious contenders? I mean it's Arizona and all but this is just embarrassing.
My 1000 foot understanding is that she ran on a more progressive platform and is now going against the very things she said she supported (like increased minimum wage).

My guess is that we won't know what her real plan is until she loses her seat in 2024. Let's not be surprised when she slides into some awful corporate advisory position or joins a conservative think-tank and pulls down a generous six figure salary.
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Re: Will the Democrats self-destruct on reconciliation?

Post by El Guapo »

Smoove_B wrote: Tue Oct 05, 2021 12:44 pm
malchior wrote: Tue Oct 05, 2021 12:35 pm Were there no serious contenders? I mean it's Arizona and all but this is just embarrassing.
My 1000 foot understanding is that she ran on a more progressive platform and is now going against the very things she said she supported (like increased minimum wage).

My guess is that we won't know what her real plan is until she loses her seat in 2024. Let's not be surprised when she slides into some awful corporate advisory position or joins a conservative think-tank and pulls down a generous six figure salary.
My working theory is that she's a narcissistic idiot.
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Re: Will the Democrats self-destruct on reconciliation?

Post by malchior »

El Guapo wrote: Tue Oct 05, 2021 1:36 pm
Smoove_B wrote: Tue Oct 05, 2021 12:44 pm
malchior wrote: Tue Oct 05, 2021 12:35 pm Were there no serious contenders? I mean it's Arizona and all but this is just embarrassing.
My 1000 foot understanding is that she ran on a more progressive platform and is now going against the very things she said she supported (like increased minimum wage).

My guess is that we won't know what her real plan is until she loses her seat in 2024. Let's not be surprised when she slides into some awful corporate advisory position or joins a conservative think-tank and pulls down a generous six figure salary.
My working theory is that she's a narcissistic idiot.
That is probably why she and Manchin get along on this. They both love the attention. I wouldn't be surprised if we found she loves that she was chased into a bathroom. The very serious people are aflutter at the incivility and she is in the center of it.
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Re: Will the Democrats self-destruct on reconciliation?

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El Guapo wrote: Tue Oct 05, 2021 1:36 pm
My working theory is that she's a narcissistic idiot.
Isn't that a requirement for working in congress? (At least, the narcissistic part).
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Re: Will the Democrats self-destruct on reconciliation?

Post by malchior »

El Guapo wrote: Tue Oct 05, 2021 12:04 pmRomney is genuinely a moderate relative to today's GOP. It's just that today's GOP has gone so bonkers that it's nonetheless misleading to call him a moderate
Yet here he is scoring cheap political points for McConnell. Ten years ago he'd be calling out himself for this type of behavior.

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Re: Will the Democrats self-destruct on reconciliation?

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Yeah, again, can't be described as a moderate. Even Kinzinger, who I view as one of the most level-headed GOP members, still aligns himself with the party. And is thus a radical.
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Re: Will the Democrats self-destruct on reconciliation?

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Sasse?
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Re: Will the Democrats self-destruct on reconciliation?

Post by Alefroth »

Carpet_pissr wrote: Tue Oct 05, 2021 6:20 pmSasse?
Does he align himself with the party?
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Re: Will the Democrats self-destruct on reconciliation?

Post by malchior »

This administration must get much better than this showing. No wonder Manchin and Sinema feel comfortable hiding in their ambivalence. The public doesn't understand what they are missing except in bits and pieces.

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Re: Will the Democrats self-destruct on reconciliation?

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malchior wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 1:47 pm This administration must get much better than this showing. No wonder Manchin and Sinema feel comfortable hiding in their ambivalence. The public doesn't understand what they are missing except in bits and pieces.
Good luck, though. This is yet another drawback with the filibuster as currently structured is that it forces *everything* to be squeezed into one mega bill, which means that you have ten different topics (at least) that are unrelated that have to be passed together. Which both makes it difficult to pass, and makes it impossible to message, because the one thing that defines it / holds it together is the method of passage and the cost of it.
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Re: Will the Democrats self-destruct on reconciliation?

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A US Senator...fundraising...in Europe. Whatever. Nothing surprises anymore.

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Re: Will the Democrats self-destruct on reconciliation?

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How did she win her primary?
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Re: Will the Democrats self-destruct on reconciliation?

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LordMortis wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 7:08 am How did she win her primary?
She won Germany and France, which was enough.
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Re: Will the Democrats self-destruct on reconciliation?

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Isn't it illegal to get campaign funds from foreign donors?
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Re: Will the Democrats self-destruct on reconciliation?

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Ralph-Wiggum wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 11:23 am Isn't it illegal to get campaign funds from foreign donors?
My assumption would be that she's raising them from Americans living abroad. Wouldn't have thought that would have been a big source for donations, though. (OTOH, I guess there might be some rich Americans who live abroad because they can afford to).
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Re: Will the Democrats self-destruct on reconciliation?

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Yeah that's the thing. It's most likely Americans living abroad but it's just another indicator how gross this whole thing is. She won't meet actual constituents. She won't explain her position to the press. Raising money from rich people who actively are destroying our country? She'll fly to Europe for that. This is why I at least have sympathy for the 'Drazzil' position. It isn't like these people aren't out there actively earning the scorn.
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Re: Will the Democrats self-destruct on reconciliation?

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malchior wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 11:51 am Yeah that's the thing. It's most likely Americans living abroad but it's just another indicator how gross this whole thing is. She won't meet actual constituents. She won't explain her position to the press. Raising money from rich people who actively are destroying our country? She'll fly to Europe for that. This is why I at least have sympathy for the 'Drazzil' position. It isn't like these people aren't out there actively earning the scorn.
Oh, I totally have the feels that at least half of Congress and the people that enable them should be put up against the wall. My lizard brain wants it very badly. I just know that it would make whatever course we are on worse.
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Re: Will the Democrats self-destruct on reconciliation?

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Re: Will the Democrats self-destruct on reconciliation?

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malchior wrote: Thu Sep 30, 2021 11:50 pm She has been doing all sorts of other corrupt things - one of which is the shady PAC event earlier this week. Another one was the story that came out about her weird summer internship at a winery last summer owned by a hedge fund which is also a political donor to her campaign.
More on that:



To swing this back on topic, I'm pretty confident we're beyond "self destructing" at this point as there is a complete inability for the Dems to seemingly act in unison in any capacity when there are urgent matters at hand. And yes I know everyone is focusing on Sinema and Manchin, but I'm also firmly in the camp that if it wasn't them, it would be others.

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Re: Will the Democrats self-destruct on reconciliation?

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It's the American dream baby! What's not to love about a system where one man from a tiny state with a massive conflict of interest has effective veto power over the next 10-years of sustainable energy investment and the environment of an entire nation. Or a woman with effective veto power over the whole agenda who won't even tell you what she wants other than pass her infrastructure bill. Then we'll get down to talking.
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Re: Will the Democrats self-destruct on reconciliation?

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Probably time for a thread title update.
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Re: Will the Democrats self-destruct on reconciliation?

Post by malchior »

Zaxxon wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 10:59 pm Probably time for a thread title update.
Soon. Many still expect a breakthrough. I think odds of a breakthrough keep falling but it seems unimaginable they won't settle on something. It'd likely be the end of the Democratic party controlling any chamber in Congress for years. People simply won't turn out if you can't get it done. We are already seeing this in the Virginia governor's race. It'll probably be a solid benchmark/glimpse of what inaction costs them.
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Re: Will the Democrats self-destruct on reconciliation?

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I'm referring to the news today that the core climate pieces are likely out (they had already been greatly gutted). If that's true, the administration is a failure, full stop.
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Re: Will the Democrats self-destruct on reconciliation?

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Biden let slip that free community college isn't going to make it, either.

An optimist might argue that passing an anemic reconciliation bill now sets up a reason to elect more Dems to finish the agenda later. Reconciliation can be done once a year (unless the parliamentarian gives you a freebie, as she did for the debt ceiling), right? If the spending bill is muted, then so too will the tax increases be. That leaves a lot of wiggle room for a second pass. Their message after passing this one has to be "let us finish the job."

I'm not that optimist. They aren't going to get a second chance with a wider majority...unless they also pass voting reform, which ain't gonna happen.
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Re: Will the Democrats self-destruct on reconciliation?

Post by Drazzil »

gbasden wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 4:20 pm
malchior wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 11:51 am Yeah that's the thing. It's most likely Americans living abroad but it's just another indicator how gross this whole thing is. She won't meet actual constituents. She won't explain her position to the press. Raising money from rich people who actively are destroying our country? She'll fly to Europe for that. This is why I at least have sympathy for the 'Drazzil' position. It isn't like these people aren't out there actively earning the scorn.
Oh, I totally have the feels that at least half of Congress and the people that enable them should be put up against the wall. My lizard brain wants it very badly. I just know that it would make whatever course we are on worse.
Well not lining them up against a wall hasn't worked so far. If lining them up against the wall does not work we'll be down half a congresses full of scumbags.
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Will the Democrats self-destruct on reconciliation?

Post by Zarathud »

And you’ll have a Congress full up with fascists.

Cutting your own throat seems to be your political battle cry, Drazzil.
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