One of the great things about not voting is...

[St. Mark]

Speaking for myself only, of course, but I think one of the great things about not voting in the Presidential Election is that I will not have to share in the blame for the mistakes made by whoever is President after the election. 8)

The added bonus is, since I have the right to free speech, I can still criticize the President up and down with impunity and without fear of being legally censored. 8)

I feel as good about not voting in this Presidential Election as I did in the last one since the current one seems to be split down the middle like the last one was. I hope all you guys and gals out there who do vote pick the better choice otherwise you will have to share the blame just like the ones who voted for the current President have to share the blame with him for all the mistakes he made. Rest assured, I will not fail to remind you of your error if you vote for the wrong one. Good Luck!

[YellowKing]

'Tis better to have voted and lost, than to never have voted at all...

Thousands of people gave their lives so that I could vote. Yeah, I think I can spare half an hour once every four years to do so.

Not trying to put you on a guilt trip or anything.

[Austin]

I can't vote but my wife does. And she asks me who to vote for as she doesn't really like politics. No need to suggest a Presidential vote, she'll vote for Bush anyway. As far as the State local stuff goes, she just votes for who I suggest.

Or does she?

[Tareeq]

Send me mail if your wife needs help with the appellate judicial elections Austin. There are some real yayhoos on the NC ballot this year. I'd love to borrow some votes for the candidates who actually, you know, have some judicial experience.

[Debris]

I used to be apathetic and not caring about any elections...until this year. A few months back I registerd to vote for the first time since I was 18. I did so because I think this election is too damn important to just sit back on my ass and let the chips fall where they may. I want my say and I want to influence what direction my nation, state and community take, no matter how little that influence actually is.

Voting also gives me the right to say STFU the the people who don't vote when they complain about tax hikes or the cost of healthcare.

[The Mad Hatter]

Not voting is as much a choice as marking your choice on a ballot. You're as responsible for what happens afterwards as anyone else - more so in many ways, since in not participating in the process you help those who profit from an apathetic citizenry. If you don't support Bush or Kerry, vote for a third party candidate.

[gellar]

Speaking for myself only, of course, but I think one of the great things about not voting in the Presidential Election is that I will not have to share in the blame for the mistakes made by whoever is President after the election. 8)

The added bonus is, since I have the right to free speech, I can still criticize the President up and down with impunity and without fear of being legally censored. 8)

I feel as good about not voting in this Presidential Election as I did in the last one since the current one seems to be split down the middle like the last one was. I hope all you guys and gals out there who do vote pick the better choice otherwise you will have to share the blame just like the ones who voted for the current President have to share the blame with him for all the mistakes he made. Rest assured, I will not fail to remind you of your error if you vote for the wrong one. Good Luck!

So let me get this straight... you're a coward?

Take a stand dude. Make a choice and live with it. You're stuck with whatever everyone else votes for anyway, have some say in the matter for fuck's sake.

Your statement above reminds me of the whiny dude who won't ask the girl out out of fear of rejection.

gellar

[CSL]

People who don't vote shouldn't have any say in any matter of government. If you can't get off your ass once every four years to vote or even spoil your ballot (which IMHO is a valid way of showing your indegnation) then you have no basis to critisize or otherwise complain about the government you get.

As Gellar says you're a coward.

And Gellar stop bringing up my fear of rejection.

[Enough]

You really hate responsibility don't you? Atheist non-voters unite! For, ummm, errr, eh, never mind.

[gellar]

You really hate responsibility don't you? Atheist non-voters unite! For, ummm, errr, eh, never mind.

Nice.

gellar

[Padre]

Speaking for myself only, of course, but I think one of the great things about not voting in the Presidential Election is that I will not have to share in the blame for the mistakes made by whoever is President after the election. 8)

Wrong.

Since somebody has to be leader, failing to vote basically shows that you're happy with whatever candidate gets elected. Therefore, a failure to vote means you're responsible WHOEVER gets elected.

If you want to divorce yourself of responsibilty, vote for a third party candidate.

[St. Mark]

So let me get this straight... you're a coward?

As Gellar says you're a coward.

Coward? Well, I have actually fought overseas for your right to so easily call me that. I don't know whether to be amused or appalled.

At any rate, you two are a couple of donkeys.

Take a stand dude. Make a choice and live with it. You're stuck with whatever everyone else votes for anyway, have some say in the matter for fuck's sake.

If you can't get off your ass once every four years to vote or even spoil your ballot (which IMHO is a valid way of showing your indegnation) then you have no basis to critisize or otherwise complain about the government you get.

First of all, morons, contrary to popular belief, the US has territories which are outside of the 50 states. Residents of these territories do not have the right to vote in Presidential elections. WTF do you want me to do, "get off my ass once every four years" and vote illegally?

FFS?

Your statement above reminds me of the whiny dude who won't ask the girl out out of fear of rejection.

People who don't vote shouldn't have any say in any matter of government.

And second, despite my lack of voting rights in Presidential elections, I (along with the rest of the territorial residents) still have to pay federal taxes. Therefore, until that changes, I shall continue to not vote and "whine," opine, criticize, and ask as many girls out as I want.

(Though that last item is only theoretically as I am married. )

Side Note - This thread was actually instructive in gauging the moderator tolerance here. I never participated in the GG R&P Forum, so I wasn't sure what flames could be slinged around in here. "Coward" is a pretty strong one and so as long as I do not surpass that, I should have a good time here with no worries.

[Tareeq]

If you want to divorce yourself of responsibilty, vote for a third party candidate.

As in, "Don't blame me. I voted for Nader!"?

[Enough]

St. Mark, where do you live? And don't you think if we knew this little morsal of background that would possibly help to elucidate for the readers of your post where you are coming from? Your initial post sure didn't read at first blush as one written by a repressed US territories subject. It read like a disinterested 20 something who thinks voting doesn't matter in the least. So do you want the right to vote and would you use it?

[gellar]

So let me get this straight... you're a coward?

As Gellar says you're a coward.

Coward? Well, I have actually fought overseas for your right to so easily call me that. I don't know whether to be amused or appalled.

At any rate, you two are a couple of donkeys.

Take a stand dude. Make a choice and live with it. You're stuck with whatever everyone else votes for anyway, have some say in the matter for fuck's sake.

If you can't get off your ass once every four years to vote or even spoil your ballot (which IMHO is a valid way of showing your indegnation) then you have no basis to critisize or otherwise complain about the government you get.

First of all, morons, contrary to popular belief, the US has territories which are outside of the 50 states. Residents of these territories do not have the right to vote in Presidential elections. WTF do you want me to do, "get off my ass once every four years" and vote illegally?

FFS?

Your statement above reminds me of the whiny dude who won't ask the girl out out of fear of rejection.

People who don't vote shouldn't have any say in any matter of government.

And second, despite my lack of voting rights in Presidential elections, I (along with the rest of the territorial residents) still have to pay federal taxes. Therefore, until that changes, I shall continue to not vote and "whine," opine, criticize, and ask as many girls out as I want.

(Though that last item is only theoretically as I am married. )

Side Note - This thread was actually instructive in gauging the moderator tolerance here. I never participated in the GG R&P Forum, so I wasn't sure what flames could be slinged around in here. "Coward" is a pretty strong one and so as long as I do not surpass that, I should have a good time here with no worries.

First off... respect for serving. I have much family and friends in the armed forces and respect everything they've done.

That being said, I don't quite see how that's relevant here at all.

Secondly, way to not tell the whole story. There's a difference between "can't vote" and "won't vote." You posted as if it were the latter, and got called on it. What did you expect to happen?

I suspect you knew exactly what type of responses the way your post was composed would elicit, and did it purposefully.

Thus, I dub thee:

[St. Mark]

First off... respect for serving. I have much family and friends in the armed forces and respect everything they've done.

That being said, I don't quite see how that's relevant here at all.

I would have never even brought it up if the charge of being a "coward" never came up. And no, I don't think that combat is the "only" litmus test in determining whether one is a coward or not. I have just never been called that before.

Secondly, way to not tell the whole story. There's a difference between "can't vote" and "won't vote." You posted as if it were the latter, and got called on it. What did you expect to happen?

I never said that I "won't" vote, I said I "don't" vote. To be honest, I can easily change my residency to a state just as a state resident can easily become a territiorial resident, but that may entail much loss in many cases.

I reread my original post and I do take the hit for causing some miscommunication. What I "expected" was what the others posted before you and CSL posted and in turn I was hoping for a debate on the free-speech of the non-vote and the perceived relevency of the third-party vote, which others had started down the road on. I had not even intended to bring up territorial residency until later in the debate.

Now whether or not you actually believe that is irrelevent and I don't really care. I "expected" at the most a "then you should just STFU" here and there (thus bringing up free speech), but I certainly did not expect to be called a "coward." And thus, I wound up sabotaging my own thread.

I suspect you knew exactly what type of responses the way your post was composed would elicit, and did it purposefully.

The other posts, yes. The "coward" posts, no. But like I said, I can take the hit for that and I apologize for "causing you" to flame me. Therefore, I retract calling you guys donkeys and morons and I will consider myself chagrined for the rest of the day.

Thus, I dub thee:

You like to namecall, don't you? If you think I am a troll for trying to start a debate in a Religion & Politics Forum, then I expect you to "dub" every single person who started a thread here for being a troll and paste that image on them as well. After all, those topics always ellicit disagreement. Though, something tells me to be prepared for disappointment...

[St. Mark]

St. Mark, where do you live? And don't you think if we knew this little morsal of background that would possibly help to elucidate for the readers of your post where you are coming from? Your initial post sure didn't read at first blush as one written by a repressed US territories subject. It read like a disinterested 20 something who thinks voting doesn't matter in the least. So do you want the right to vote and would you use it?

Upon further review, yes. But, it wasn't my original intention to open up with that line of bearing. I anticipated bringing it out later in the debate.

Currently in Maryland. I had actually considered getting residency here based solely on wanting to vote in the upcoming election (I haven't actually voted in a Presidential election since '96). It seems though that Maryland will go Democrat in the electoral vote, anyway. My wife became a resident and is voting. I already absentee voted for my Representative (even though she is running unopposed). My problem is that I can't stand any of the candidates to include Nader.

[wire]

Actually St. Mark you can get away with far more than calling someone a coward. A more illustrious member of the old forum got away with calling people un-american for being liberal all the time. Even to the point of picking fights and causing flame wars...yet was able to stick around and was even on a first name basis with many.

So have no fear...I think coward is a very safe term to use.

[khomotso]

I'm not voting either, essentially for pragmatic reasons. I live in Massachusetts, and the electoral system being what it is ... well, I'm not much for hollow, symbolic gestures. I'll watch the outcome with interest, since I do think it's an important election, but any notion that I can have an effect on it one way or the other has been dipped in a little too much star spangled syrup.

I'm not sure I really understand how the encouragement to vote should have earned such a level of religious fervor (and associated sanctimonious frothing), particularly when it seems to have become far more important to vote than to be well informed in your vote. You don't see people being called cowards for not reading up on the issues or paying attention to party platforms. The fact that they'll go stand in a line is good enough to reassure us of their civic worth. Just poke your stylus through that card and you're all right with us.

I'm more horrified by a feckless vote than no vote at all. It's not a new idea, but I tend to think that if you don't care to vote, you probably shouldn't, for everyone's sake. No harm done, leave it up to the people with opinions, even if many of them are incoherent. That humble abstention might show a little more conscientiousness than going through the motions.

The positions I take with friends and family, the stance I adopt in conversation, all will have a greater impact than any vote I could cast this year, with this match-up and in this environment.

Besides, the South Park boys are on my side.

[Grifman]

The added bonus is, since I have the right to free speech, I can still criticize the President up and down with impunity and without fear of being legally censored. 8)

Uhhmm, you know that you can do this even if you do vote, don't you?

Grifman

[Grifman]

I reread my original post and I do take the hit for causing some miscommunication. What I "expected" was what the others posted before you and CSL posted and in turn I was hoping for a debate on the free-speech of the non-vote and the perceived relevency of the third-party vote, which others had started down the road on. I had not even intended to bring up territorial residency until later in the debate.

Look, let me give you a hint, ok. We're a pretty straight forward group here. You want to discuss a topic, then discuss it straight up. Don't play games with people, trying to get a reaction of some sorts, then drop on them what you really want to talk about. I don't think most here enjoy that type of game. We're pretty straight shooting here - and I think we expect the same of others, not playing word games.

Just a word to wise . . .

Grifman

[St. Mark]

Actually St. Mark you can get away with far more than calling someone a coward. A more illustrious member of the old forum got away with calling people un-american for being liberal all the time. Even to the point of picking fights and causing flame wars...yet was able to stick around and was even on a first name basis with many.

So have no fear...I think coward is a very safe term to use.

Well, it's never really been my style to just call people names when I disagree with them but since it seems to be acceptable here, I suppose I could give it a try.

[St. Mark]

I'm not voting either, essentially for pragmatic reasons.

Do you think that you "should" remain silent for the next four years because you choose not to vote? Honestly, I could live with people calling me "irresponsible" for not voting but does that mean I can't express my opinions? What do you think?

I'm more horrified by a feckless vote than no vote at all. It's not a new idea, but I tend to think that if you don't care to vote, you probably shouldn't, for everyone's sake. No harm done, leave it up to the people with opinions, even if many of them are incoherent. That humble abstention might show a little more conscientiousness than going through the motions.

I've always wondered if there should be an "abstain" option on ballots just like they have on Congressional votes. The only difference is that Presidential election votes are anonymous. I heard that Australia actually requires it's citizens to vote and fines them if they don't. I don't think that would go over to well here but the "civil disobedience" crowd might support it.

[St. Mark]

Uhhmm, you know that you can do this even if you do vote, don't you?

So would it be fair to tell someone who I know voted for the winner of the election to "shut up you can't complain because you voted for him/her" if that leader makes a blatant error in judgement?

Look, let me give you a hint, ok. We're a pretty straight forward group here. You want to discuss a topic, then discuss it straight up.

Look, I already said I would take the hit and be chagrined for my miscommunication. Do I really have to go through this scenario:

I have 8 bosses, Bob.

Pardon me?

8 Bosses.

Eight?

Eight, Bob. That means that when I screw something up, I have to hear 8 different people tell me about it.

Don't play games with people, trying to get a reaction of some sorts, then drop on them what you really want to talk about. I don't think most here enjoy that type of game.

You misunderstand. "Territorial Residency" is not what I "really wanted to talk about." I wanted to bring it up later as an example to those who say you don't have the right to complain if you don't vote. My whole point of this thread was the free speech of the non-vote and the irrelevency of the third-party vote. But it's a moot point now.

We're pretty straight shooting here - and I think we expect the same of others, not playing word games.

Straight shooting, yes, I am going to give the "quick to insult without fully investigating the matter method" a try. I do want to fit in, you know. 8)

As for word games, I don't really know what you mean by that. I don't correct people's grammar or spelling mistakes and I certainly don't use that "Elite" speak. If you are referring to my starting post, the fact of the matter is that the contents of that post are still completely factual and still hold true for myself. After all, I was "speaking for myself." Since it seems we can't get past it, tell me something, Grifman, if I had been what initially most people thought I was (an eligible voter who "won't" vote), do you agree that I and others like me "are" cowards and do not have the right to complain? Should we be denied free speech? (By the way, I don't mean if should I have been "called" a coward, I know that is okay in this forum, I mean do you think the charge properly stands? If so, why?)

Just a word to wise . . .

Grifman

Why? Are you guys forming a brutesquad?