Great men and troubled times

[Kraken]

There is a maxim that says great men emerge in times of trouble. The Civil War gave us Abe Lincoln and Jeff Davis. WW2 gave us Churchill, Stalin, FDR. Real leaders who combine moral certitude with raw intelligence and political shrewdness.

How come we get John Kerry and George Bush?

1. The maxim is wrong. "Greatness" is a reflection of the challenge met, not some internal characteristic.

2. The current time is not as troubled as we think it is. 9/11 and the War on Terror don't rise to the threat level of the Civil War or WW2...it just feels that way because we're embedded in our time.

3. The system is borked. Real statesmen can no longer endure politics because the process is simply too brutal. A Lincoln or an FDR could never survive the media spotlight and our modern insistence on moral sainthood. Or the nominating process weeds out the best people in favor of the most popular, which are exlusive. Or the political system is broken in some other way.

4. Either Kerry or Bush really is a great leader, and I just can't see it.

5. Something I haven't thought of.

(BTW, I'm open to the great leader of our time being a woman, as long as it's not Hillary Clinton.)

[LordMortis]

My guess is that history has shown that great men can step in times of trouble and life is better, but they don't always do they? Sometimes it takes years for those great men to step up. Other times they never get there and Rome falls or Germany becomes becomes fascist.

[Dirt]

There is a maxim that says great men emerge in times of trouble. The Civil War gave us Abe Lincoln and Jeff Davis. WW2 gave us Churchill, Stalin, FDR. Real leaders who combine moral certitude with raw intelligence and political shrewdness.

Jefferson Davis was a great man?

[Dirt]

My guess is that history has shown that great men can step in times of trouble and life is better, but they don't always do they? Sometimes it takes years for those great men to step up. Other times they never get there and Rome falls or Germany becomes becomes fascist.

Hitler was a great man. He did some pretty evil things. But, many conquerors did. Alexander, Genghis Khan.

[Kraken]

Jefferson Davis was a great man?

The fact that your next post calls Hitler a great man shows that you understand my point. It is a matter of perspective, isn't it? The victors write the history. Head south of the Mason-Dixon line and ask whether Davis was Lincoln's equal.

Is it possible that the great leaders of our time are on the other side? That is a very disturbing thought.

[Enough]

My guess is that history has shown that great men can step in times of trouble and life is better, but they don't always do they? Sometimes it takes years for those great men to step up. Other times they never get there and Rome falls or Germany becomes becomes fascist.

Hitler was a great man. He did some pretty evil things. But, many conquerors did. Alexander, Genghis Khan.

Great as in a leet Starcraft player sure, the guy liked to rush eh? But let's get real here, in the commonly accepted meaning of the word you would be hard pressed to convince anyone he was anything close to "great," just as it would be with Stalin.

[Tareeq]

Hitler was a great man. He did some pretty evil things. But, many conquerors did. Alexander, Genghis Khan.

[Exodor]

2. The current time is not as troubled as we think it is. 9/11 and the War on Terror don't rise to the threat level of the Civil War or WW2...it just feels that way because we're embedded in our time.

My vote goes here. The evil terrorist bastards scored a direct hit on 9/11....and nothing since.

Yes, Iraq is a mess and a haven for terrorists - but I think that's mainly because there are Americans there to attack. Ask Israel how easy it is to control a hostile populace that views troops as occupiers. Does anyone really believe the terror attacks that happen daily in Iraq would be taking place in the absence of a US invasion of that country?

We've all heard the endless warnings and watched the "Terror Threat Level" go from red to green to chartreuse - and yet there hasn't been an attack on American soil since 9/11. The Al-Queda network and other terrorists are evil and should be tracked down and destroyed.

But I think the whole thing has been vastly overstaed.

[Dirt]

My guess is that history has shown that great men can step in times of trouble and life is better, but they don't always do they? Sometimes it takes years for those great men to step up. Other times they never get there and Rome falls or Germany becomes becomes fascist.

Hitler was a great man. He did some pretty evil things. But, many conquerors did. Alexander, Genghis Khan.

Great as in a leet Starcraft player sure, the guy liked to rush eh? But let's get real here, in the commonly accepted meaning of the word you would be hard pressed to convince anyone he was anything close to "great," just as it would be with Stalin.

The man accomplished a great many things where most in this world could not have. Ultimately, he does fall short of 'great' if only because he lost.

[Eduardo X]

[/quote]
Farakan is harboring Omar Khadafi!

[warning]

My guess is that history has shown that great men can step in times of trouble and life is better, but they don't always do they? Sometimes it takes years for those great men to step up. Other times they never get there and Rome falls or Germany becomes becomes fascist.

Hitler was a great man. He did some pretty evil things. But, many conquerors did. Alexander, Genghis Khan.

Great as in a leet Starcraft player sure, the guy liked to rush eh? But let's get real here, in the commonly accepted meaning of the word you would be hard pressed to convince anyone he was anything close to "great," just as it would be with Stalin.

The man accomplished a great many things where most in this world could not have. Ultimately, he does fall short of 'great' if only because he lost.

Well that and the whole killing the Jews thing. Minor detail I know.

[Dirt]

My guess is that history has shown that great men can step in times of trouble and life is better, but they don't always do they? Sometimes it takes years for those great men to step up. Other times they never get there and Rome falls or Germany becomes becomes fascist.

Hitler was a great man. He did some pretty evil things. But, many conquerors did. Alexander, Genghis Khan.

Great as in a leet Starcraft player sure, the guy liked to rush eh? But let's get real here, in the commonly accepted meaning of the word you would be hard pressed to convince anyone he was anything close to "great," just as it would be with Stalin.

The man accomplished a great many things where most in this world could not have. Ultimately, he does fall short of 'great' if only because he lost.

Well that and the whole killing the Jews thing. Minor detail I know.

Alexander wiped out entire cities, as did Genghis Khan. Washington, Jefferson both owned slaves (as did most of the Founding Fathers).

[LordMortis]

I guess I got lost right away then. What is a great man? A guy who gets wrote in the history book? Then your point might be that these times aren't as troubled as we think, except for people in the middle east who can do things like prop up Saddam in one strange way and Bin Laden in a very real way.

Or perhaps, the greatness of people in history during our time is not going to be defined by career politicians. That we will look to other people like, for instance, Mike Illich, in my own area, who I swear is single handedly rebuilding Detroit in spite of the fighting he has to do against the city he is trying to help. Maybe it's Paul Allen who silently got to the top of the business world and checked out in order to work with schools and work towards Man's future in spite of the way the government does business.

If you ever get the chance, I would suggest a work of fiction, I believe by Graham Swift, called Waterland. It is a novel about the petit histroi (I am sure I butchered that), the history of a man during troubled times.

I imagine there is a lot of perspective involved in examining greatness and in examining troubled times.

[LordMortis]

Alexander wiped out entire cities, as did Genghis Khan. Washington, Jefferson both owned slaves (as did most of the Founding Fathers).

If I get you correctly, then we are looking at Great Men as being the men who change the way me move forward and therefore the course of history. Then Osama is probably the greatest man alive today.

[Dirt]

Alexander wiped out entire cities, as did Genghis Khan. Washington, Jefferson both owned slaves (as did most of the Founding Fathers).

If I get you correctly, then we are looking at Great Men as being the men who change the way me move forward and therefore the course of history. Then Osama is probably the greatest man alive today.

I agree.

[Enough]

Alexander wiped out entire cities, as did Genghis Khan. Washington, Jefferson both owned slaves (as did most of the Founding Fathers).

If I get you correctly, then we are looking at Great Men as being the men who change the way me move forward and therefore the course of history. Then Osama is probably the greatest man alive today.

I agree.

Paradise
Is exactly like
Where you are right now
Only much much
Better.

I saw this guy on the train
And he seemed to have gotten stuck
In one of those abstract trances.
And he was going: "Ugh . . . Ugh . . . Ugh . . . "

And Fred said:
l think he's in some kind of pain.I think it's a pain cry.
And I said: "Pain cry?
Then language is a virus."

Language! It's a virus!
Language! It's a virus!

Well I was talking to a friend
And I was saying:
I wanted you.
And I was looking for yov.
But I couldn't find you. I couldn't find you.
And he said: Hey!
Are you talking to me?
Or are you just practicing
For one of those performances of yours?
Huh?

Language! It's a virus!
Language! It's a virus!

He said: I had to write that letter to your mother
And I had to tell the judge that it was you.
And I had to sell the car and go to Florida.
Becaure that's just my way of saying (It's a charm.)
That I love you. And I (It's a job.)
Had to call you at the crack of dawn (Why?)
And list the times that I've been wrong.
Cause that's just my way of saying
That I'm sorry. (It's a job.)

Language! It's a virus!
Language! It's a virus!

Paradise
Is exactly like
Where you are right now
Only much much (It's a shipwreck
)
Better. (It's a job.)

You know? I don't believe there's such
o thing as TV. I mean -
They just keep showing you
The same pictures over ond over.
And when they talk they just make sounds
That more or less synch up
With their lips.
That's what I think!

Language! It's a virus!
Language! It's a virus!
Language! It's a virus!

Well I dreamed there was an island
That rose up from the sea.
And everybody on the island
Was somebody from TV.
And there was a beautiful view
But nobody could see.
Cause everybody on the island
Was saying: Look ot me! Look at me!
Look at me! Look at me!

Because they all lived on an island
That rose up from the sea
And everybody on the island
Was somebody from TV.
And there was a beautiful view
But nobody could see.
Cause everybody on the island
Was screaming: Look at me! Look at me! Look at me!
Look at me! Look at me! Why?

Paradise
Is exactly like
Where you are right now
Only much much
Better.

[Quipp]

My guess is that history has shown that great men can step in times of trouble and life is better, but they don't always do they? Sometimes it takes years for those great men to step up. Other times they never get there and Rome falls or Germany becomes becomes fascist.

Hitler was a great man. He did some pretty evil things. But, many conquerors did. Alexander, Genghis Khan.

Great as in a leet Starcraft player sure, the guy liked to rush eh? But let's get real here, in the commonly accepted meaning of the word you would be hard pressed to convince anyone he was anything close to "great," just as it would be with Stalin.

The man accomplished a great many things where most in this world could not have. Ultimately, he does fall short of 'great' if only because he lost.

So history doesn't make men great--great men make history?

[Jag]

Well, not to overstate my sig, but another great Churchill quote that explains why it always looks like the good guys win:

"History shall be kind to me, for I intend to write it"

I'm currently reading the 4th book of the Black Company by Glen Cook, he has an interesting perspective on Empires. The first generation are the brutal conquerors, who kill any who oppose them, the second generation are the administrators, these have to organize and maintain the empire, the third generation has grown lazy and complacent from having the empire handed to them, which makes them ripe for the next wave of conquerors.

[Dramatist]

I do wish we had some great leaders to choose between next month.

Hell, I'd even take pretty good leaders.

[Dirt]

If Ironrod can mention Jefferson Davis as a great man. Hitler can be mentioned too. As can Osama bin Laden.

[CSL]

IMHO the time of great men is over. I don't see any great men on the horizon and with the rare exceptions of people like Barak Obama or John McCain few that I would even respect.

[jimmyPx]

I would suggest that it is way, way, way too early to even comment historically on the greatness or lack of it from George Bush or John Kerry.

You honestly cannot judge leaders or historical events and their legacies until 50 to 100 years have passed. In that time, you can finally see the things and events that caused them to act the way they did, and the true ramifications of their actions good & bad.

A good example is that 50 years ago, people kind of thought that Dwight Eisenhower was a nice guy who really didn't do much during his Presidency. Looking back now (and with most government documents released), you can see that he actually was very involved in alot and he kept us out of IndoChina in 1954 (many wanted to go in and help the French at Dien Bien Phu), he stood up to the Soviets and started the policy of containment, AND he started up NASA.

Regarding George Bush, please tell me who was accussed of the following during his Presidency:

He started an unprovoked war by calling up the Reserves and invading another country.

He didn't receive a majority of the popular vote.

People thought that he was one of the worst Presidents ever and he would be the destruction of the country.

He trampled on personal and individual rights and arrested and imprisoned people on no or trumped up charges.

His re-election was the extremely close and he was not projected to win.

His political opponant claimed that if this President was thrown out, he would immediately open up negotiations and end the horrible war.

I could go on, but the President that i'm talking about is Abraham Lincoln !!


Now I'm not saying that George Bush is like Abraham Lincoln, I'm just stating that if in 1864 you told a voter in that election that Abraham Lincoln would go down as one of the greatest Presidents of all time, they would have laughed at you.

You really can't judge these things until time and these people decisions have taken effect. For example, if Iraq becomes a great democracy that causes the whole Middle East to become democratic and the extremisy Mullahs to lose power, then George Bush will be remembered as a great President.
If on the other hand, Irag becomes a horrible quagmire like Lebonon was in the 1980's and the instability spreads across the Middle East, then George Bush will be remembered as one of the worst Presidents.

Time will tell.

[Kraken]

It seems like the politicians that I come to respect get out of the game. I don't like his politics, but Mario Cuomo has the makings of a great statesman -- strong principles, leadership ability, intelligence, shrewdness and eloquence. On the other side, John McCain might possibly rise to that level. Bill Weld had a lot of promise. Does our process relegate these people to also-rans, or drive them out entirely? Or do they just lack the chops to go all the way?

I agree about history's judgment. I still think that invading Iraq will be vindicated in the long run. The status ante bellum in that region was unacceptable, and is certainly in the process of being swept away right now. The recent Afghan elections are highly encouraging.

Still, if you apply the test that I do -- principles, leadership, intelligence, shrewdness and eloquence -- then neither Bush nor Kerry really measure up. Whether or not you agreed with his politics, Abe Lincoln demonstrated all of those characteristics pretty clearly. Churchill wasn't terribly popular either, but he scored high in all of those categories. I think it is possible to distinguish greatness from mediocrity without the perspective of years...and I definitely don't buy the assertion that great men are a thing of the past.

[Dirt]

Truman was always thought of as an idiot. Now, he's considered one of the better Presidents of the 20th Century.

[Discalced]

2. The current time is not as troubled as we think it is. 9/11 and the War on Terror don't rise to the threat level of the Civil War or WW2...it just feels that way because we're embedded in our time.

Our times are certainly troubled, but not yet desperate. I think it'll take anywhere from 1-3 more terms with candidates of the current caliber. No doubt, America is heading towards the shit can, but right now our real problems are still "prairie-dogging."

[Dirt]

Yeah. I think just about every President from Jackson to Lincoln is pretty forgetable.

[CSL]

Truman was always thought of as an idiot. Now, he's considered one of the better Presidents of the 20th Century.

Thats some pretty poor competition only Teddy Roosevelt, Franklin Roosevelt and Woodrow Wilson are truely great.

[malchior]

2. The current time is not as troubled as we think it is. 9/11 and the War on Terror don't rise to the threat level of the Civil War or WW2...it just feels that way because we're embedded in our time.

Our times are certainly troubled, but not yet desperate. I think it'll take anywhere from 1-3 more terms with candidates of the current caliber. No doubt, America is heading towards the shit can, but right now our real problems are still "prairie-dogging."

The times will be desperate soon if oil keeps arising, jobs keep aleaving, and money is the only thing that Congress listens to.

[Enough]

Every time I see this thread title I think of those Men of Genius ads.

[Dirt]

Truman was always thought of as an idiot. Now, he's considered one of the better Presidents of the 20th Century.

Thats some pretty poor competition only Teddy Roosevelt, Franklin Roosevelt and Woodrow Wilson are truely great.

I'd but Wilson at the very top of the 2nd tier Presidents.

[WPD]

I think it is (2).

A large part of the reason for the feeling that we are living in extremely tumultous times can be attributed to the media. What with the constant reminder that we are on TERROR ALERT LEVEL ORANGE and that this may be THE MOST IMPORTANT ELECTION EVER how can we not feel these are the times of trouble and that we need a great leader.

Also I think people feel the need to be "historically relevant". As with the assassination of JFK and the Moon Landing, people feel they need historical events to be able to latch on, to be able to tell their grandchildren, "I remember exactly what I was doing when I heard the news that..." and I doubt ost people want have one of their 2 memories be OJ's verdict(the other being the obvious 9-11).

I feel that if the world continues on its current pace that soon enough we'll be in a time of trouble, but that the current time is not.

[Zarathud]

and I doubt ost people want have one of their 2 memories be OJ's verdict(the other being the obvious 9-11).

At least those great moments are not what happened on the last episode of Friends and Seinfeld.

All the more reason to "Get Your Ass to Mars." If we want to be inspired to greatness, we have to set out for impossible goals -- and accomplish them. The X-Prize contest hopefully will spur space travel, because at some point we have to get off this planet.