Congressional Agency Questions Legality of Wiretaps

[Isgrimnur]

A United States Embassy was under attack for the first time in 43 years.

You got a source for that claim?

[Captain Caveman]

Have you ever read the Bible?

I have actually read both. One, the tone changes to one of tolerance and forgiveness.

Ah, now I finally understand why Jews are so scary and violent.

[Anonymous Bosch]

Have you ever read the Bible?

I have actually read both. One, the tone changes to one of tolerance and forgiveness.

Ah, now I finally understand why Jews are so scary and violent.

Well, the religious leaders and people of Israel were complicit in the death of Jesus Christ…

[Captain Caveman]

Have you ever read the Bible?

I have actually read both. One, the tone changes to one of tolerance and forgiveness.

Ah, now I finally understand why Jews are so scary and violent.

Well, the religious leaders and people of Israel were complicit in the death of Jesus Christ…

What are you talking about? I've never heard of such things.

Oh, that must be in the "tone changing" part that my people don't read.

[Alefroth]

Are you actually a woman irl?

Oh fuck off.

+1

Ale

[cheeba]

Mere hours after President Barack Obama said Friday morning that he welcomes a debate on the federal government's highly classified surveillance programs, his Department of Justice tried to squash the release of a secret court opinion concerning surveillance law.

--Huffington Post

#WorseThanClinton?

[Rip]

Mere hours after President Barack Obama said Friday morning that he welcomes a debate on the federal government's highly classified surveillance programs, his Department of Justice tried to squash the release of a secret court opinion concerning surveillance law.

--Huffington Post

#WorseThanClinton?

and now going after the balls of whoever leaked this. There is nothing to see here but however told you there was is gonna pay!

[Isgrimnur]

Congressman Marchant,

I know that you are not party to the Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence, but as my representative, I feel the need to bring my concerns regarding the news of routine disbursement of phone records to the US Government for intelligence data mining.

I worked for AT&T Mobility (formerly Cingular Wireless) during the pretexting scandals during the middle of the last decade when it was made clear at a national level that the data contained in cell phone call records were considered private and deserving of protection from those not authorized through a definitive legal right to access.

From my current research, I see that the US Supreme Court defined an unreasonable search as when a person expects privacy and society believes it to be reasonable (Katz v. United States, 1967). Based on my experiences in the cell phone industry and the recent outcry, I believe it to be unreasonable that the government is requesting data dumps for all citizens using these consumer products as a matter of course. It has been long held that phone records are private, and fines have been used as punishment for companies guilty of data breaches. The Telephone Records and Privacy Protection Act (TRPPA) of 2006 makes unauthorized access to these records a crime worthy of prison time and stiff fines. If this is not a clear indication that the government should hold these records to be private and society to hold that as reasonable, perhaps I need a better definitions for those terms.

From reviewing your site, I see that you have been very active in defending the rights of citizens on the 2nd and 10th Amendments to our great Constitution. I hope to hear your voice raised to protect us in the same manner from government infringements under the 4th Amendment.

[Isgrimnur]
Dallas, TX

I don't expect much of a reply. And I'm not going to bother to reach out to Sen. John "None of your civil liberties matter much after you're dead" Cornyn.

[Rip]

He described as formative an incident in which he claimed CIA operatives were attempting to recruit a Swiss banker to obtain secret banking information. Snowden said they achieved this by purposely getting the banker drunk and encouraging him to drive home in his car. When the banker was arrested for drunk driving, the undercover agent seeking to befriend him offered to help, and a bond was formed that led to successful recruitment.

"Much of what I saw in Geneva really disillusioned me about how my government functions and what its impact is in the world," he says. "I realised that I was part of something that was doing far more harm than good."

He said it was during his CIA stint in Geneva that he thought for the first time about exposing government secrets. But, at the time, he chose not to for two reasons.

First, he said: "Most of the secrets the CIA has are about people, not machines and systems, so I didn't feel comfortable with disclosures that I thought could endanger anyone". Secondly, the election of Barack Obama in 2008 gave him hope that there would be real reforms, rendering disclosures unnecessary.

He left the CIA in 2009 in order to take his first job working for a private contractor that assigned him to a functioning NSA facility, stationed on a military base in Japan. It was then, he said, that he "watched as Obama advanced the very policies that I thought would be reined in", and as a result, "I got hardened."

The primary lesson from this experience was that "you can't wait around for someone else to act. I had been looking for leaders, but I realised that leadership is about being the first to act."

Over the next three years, he learned just how all-consuming the NSA's surveillance activities were, claiming "they are intent on making every conversation and every form of behaviour in the world known to them".

He described how he once viewed the internet as "the most important invention in all of human history". As an adolescent, he spent days at a time "speaking to people with all sorts of views that I would never have encountered on my own".

But he believed that the value of the internet, along with basic privacy, is being rapidly destroyed by ubiquitous surveillance. "I don't see myself as a hero," he said, "because what I'm doing is self-interested: I don't want to live in a world where there's no privacy and therefore no room for intellectual exploration and creativity."

Once he reached the conclusion that the NSA's surveillance net would soon be irrevocable, he said it was just a matter of time before he chose to act. "What they're doing" poses "an existential threat to democracy", he said.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/ju ... rveillance

Tremendous read and reaffirms everything I have known and currently think about NSA/CIA activities.

[JSHAW]

Every person who cares about the NSA debate needs to go to drudge report and watch the video of Edward Snowden, the 29 year old man who blew the whistle and leaked the documents to the Guardian.

Damn, I don't know this guy but I admire what he's done and why he did it.

I think he will be doing all his web browsing using TOR from now on.

[Skinypupy]

I hope to heck Christians wake up and realize Muslims do not believe in forgiveness. Islam is the most intolerant religion in the world. Unfortunately,we are being taught to accept their intolerance. They can burn crosses, Bibles, flags, whatever religious symbol they want - because we forgive - as good Christians.

Well, except for the hundreds of Christians who actively bussed people in to protest and disrupt a tolerance forum sponsored by the American Muslim Advisory Council last week.

T-shirts were administered to protesters donning 'Keep Calm and Eat Pork' as well as the First Amendment to the US constitution, which some event organizers embraced.

Kasar Abdulla, a board member of AMAC and a community activist, was present at the event and shared her experiences with The Stream. She said that when one of the speakers mentioned a Tennessee mosque which had been firebombed in 2008, many people started cheering and clapping and calling for 'all mosques' to meet the same fate.

You stay classy, Tennessee.

[RLMullen]

Most people are worried about this thing's storage capability. I'm more concerned with it's throughput and processing capability.

NSA's new toy

I'd like to see a side-by-side comparison with a standard Google data center. Those things are quite massive as well.

[Rip]

Every person who cares about the NSA debate needs to go to drudge report and watch the video of Edward Snowden, the 29 year old man who blew the whistle and leaked the documents to the Guardian.

Damn, I don't this guy but I admire what he's done and why he did it.

I think he will be doing all his web browsing using TOR from now on.

Or just watch it at the source.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/ju ... rveillance

Edit to add: Turnkey tyranny. I love the phrase and will start using it frequently.

[Rip]

Liked it so much I have made his quote my new signature.

[JSHAW]

Every person who cares about the NSA debate needs to go to drudge report and watch the video of Edward Snowden, the 29 year old man who blew the whistle and leaked the documents to the Guardian.

Damn, I don't know this guy but I admire what he's done and why he did it.

I think he will be doing all his web browsing using TOR from now on.

Or just watch it at the source.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/ju ... rveillance

Edit to add: Turnkey tyranny. I love the phrase and will start using it frequently.

When I post you get what you get. If you like coming behind me to clean up my mess, knock yourself out.

[Rip]

Not a problem as always I am here to inform.

Speaking of which here is probably the one paragraph no one should miss.

Even if you're not doing anything wrong, you're being watched and recorded. The storage capability of these systems increases every year, consistently, by orders of magnitude, to where it's getting to the point where you don't have to have done anything wrong, you simply have to eventually fall under suspicion from somebody, even by a wrong call, and then they can use this system to go back in time and scrutinize every decision you've ever made, every friend you've ever discussed something with, and attack you on that basis, to sort of derive suspicion from an innocent life and paint anyone in the context of a wrongdoer.

[hepcat]

I'm actually more surprised this is such a huge surprise to so many people. I'm not condoning it, but ever since the patriot act and the phone tap scandals after 9/11, I guess I just assumed this crap was going on in some manner or another.

[Exodor]

I'm actually more surprised this is such a huge surprise to so many people. I'm not condoning it, but ever since the patriot act and the phone tap scandals after 9/11, I guess I just assumed this crap was going on in some manner or another.

For me the outrage is that someone who ran on a platform of change has not only continued Bush administration policies but in some ways made them even more invasive.

[cheeba]

I'm surprised so few seem disappointed. There were a ton of kool-aid drinkers on this forum, and I'd bet that the amount donated to his campaign from OO'ers easily totaled in the thousands of dollars. Even the NYTimes and other lefty publications have gone after him with venom. But most OO'ers don't seem to mind too much.

Personally I wrote to my Senator (the one not leaving next year) and congressman like Isgrimnur did. I'll vote for any (D) or (R) who runs on a campaign of repealing these powers and ending Obama's surveillance state.

[JSHAW]

I'm actually more surprised this is such a huge surprise to so many people. I'm not condoning it, but ever since the patriot act and the phone tap scandals after 9/11, I guess I just assumed this crap was going on in some manner or another.

For me the outrage is that someone who ran on a platform of change has not only continued Bush administration policies but in some ways made them even more invasive.

That's the understatement of the year.

EXPANDED, INCREASED...WOW Since thursday night my head has been spinning on thinking how it seems that once again
the current administration is turning this country into a surveillance police state of 24/7 constant monitoring of the American people.

Many years ago there was talk about the ECHELON program, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ECHELON and I knew the US had the
tech and capabilities for surveillance, but for me the PRISM program is taking things WAY too far.

It was always my understanding that the intelligence services didn't and weren't allowed to spy domestically. Yes, I get that after 9/11 and
the Patriot Act things were expanded, but I thought there were controls put in place to not allow for a hoover vacuum to be unleashed on
the U.S tech companies that have been said to be part of the PRISM program.

This is what probably pisses me off the most. Where was all the advanced monitoring capabilities that lost track of 1 of the 2 boston bombers
when he went back to Russia, came back to the US, and carried out the boston bombing. What happened? TOO much data that wasn't crunched
by the miles and miles of supercomputers that took in all the data, but not enough manpower to keep track of 1 guy. 1 guy that had already
been identified by another country's intelligence agency. They served him up to the US on a silver platter, said keep your eye on this guy, and STILL
they couldn't babysit 1 guy. MASSIVE FAIL.

I realize it's not the NSA's job to catch the boston bombers, but the discussions in the media keep coming back to this tech being used to stop terrorist plots. So for me it's linked together. Intelligence agencies monitoring phone calls, social media, both of which both the boston bombers were using.

Every day that Snowden is alive I hope it burns like acid in the veins of the people and programs he exposed.

[Exodor]

EXPANDED, INCREASED...WOW Since thursday night my head has been spinning on thinking how it seems that once again
the current administration is turning this country into a surveillance police state of 24/7 constant monitoring of the American people.

Well...

The National Security Agency has been secretly collecting the phone call records of tens of millions of Americans, using data provided by AT&T, Verizon and BellSouth, people with direct knowledge of the arrangement told USA TODAY.

The NSA program reaches into homes and businesses across the nation by amassing information about the calls of ordinary Americans — most of whom aren't suspected of any crime. This program does not involve the NSA listening to or recording conversations. But the spy agency is using the data to analyze calling patterns in an effort to detect terrorist activity, sources said in separate interviews.

The three telecommunications companies are working under contract with the NSA, which launched the program in 2001 shortly after the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks, the sources said. The program is aimed at identifying and tracking suspected terrorists, they said.

Note the date on that article - May 11, 2006

[Kraken]

I'll vote for any (D) or (R) who runs on a campaign of repealing these powers and ending Obama's surveillance state.

Then do you consider Obama's recent speech about ending the War on Terror a step in that direction, or are you in the "Obama declares defeat!" camp?

[Rip]

Saw a story on the so caled free beacon that suggested that Snowden had suggested he was defecting to China, which is utter horseshit. He simply made the case that China wasn't some sort of arch enemy. Pointing out they are our biggest trade partner. If anything he was addressing the issue of why he wasn't afraid of China being right there in Hong Kong. So stupid I refuse to even link it.

[Canuck]

Good for Snowden! The man should be declared a national hero.

[dbt1949]

How come congress can get together and pass laws to allow the government to spy on all Americans but can't agree on anything else?

[hepcat]

Saw a story on the so caled free beacon that suggested that Snowden had suggested he was defecting to China, which is utter horseshit. He simply made the case that China wasn't some sort of arch enemy. Pointing out they are our biggest trade partner. If anything he was addressing the issue of why he wasn't afraid of China being right there in Hong Kong. So stupid I refuse to even link it.

He's been talking about seeking asylum in Iceland, according to news reports. Also, Hong Kong wasn't a terribly well thought out shelter for Snowden considering the region signed an extradition treaty with the US in '97 before the hand over to China that calls for the US and Hong Kong to hand over fugitives. However, whether or not the Chinese will step in and take charge is another matter.

EXPANDED, INCREASED...WOW Since thursday night my head has been spinning on thinking how it seems that once again
the current administration is turning this country into a surveillance police state of 24/7 constant monitoring of the American people.

Your heads spinning...but not for the right reasons. You're making this a partisan issue because you're limited to that thought and that thought only. Those who hope to fix the actual problem aren't as limited and short sighted as you...hopefully.

[msduncan]

It occurs to me that it doesn't really matter where it started and with whom. I'm sure its been steadily increasing in some form or fashion for decades (or even a century or more).

What's important is that this shit needs to be reigned in, and people on both sides need to realize (myself included) that no matter what happens under an administration that you might like, eventually an administration that you detest will take over. The issue is larger than any one administration though. We have large autonomous government agencies spying on American citizens, using their power against American citizens to influence politics(IRS), and other shit that rips the fabric right out of what the Founders intended for this country.

Shit needs to stop. Enough is enough.

[Rip]

I would think his choice of HK had something to do with avoiding setting off alarm bells at whatever division of the NSA is charged with spying on the spys. I am pretty sure flying off to a country without an extradition treaty would have resulted in unwanted attention before he was ready to out himself.

Should be interesting to see the fallout of going after him. I get the feeling he will enjoy MUCH more popular support than the like of Bradley Manning. At least in HK he should be pretty safe from a drone strike, which I suspect our government would launch against him without hesitation if it only meant killing a few dozen citizens of a country that lacked the ability or will to respond.

[Rip]

A group of intelligence officials were overheard yesterday discussing how the National Security Agency worker who leaked sensitive documents to a reporter last week should be 'disappeared.'
Foreign policy analyst and editor at large of The Atlantic, Steve Clemons, tweeted about the 'disturbing' conversation after listening in to four men who were sitting near him as he waited for a flight at Washington's Dulles airport.
'In Dulles UAL lounge listening to 4 US intel officials saying loudly leaker & reporter on #NSA stuff should be disappeared recorded a bit,' he tweeted at 8:42 a.m. on Saturday.
According to Clemons, the men had been attending an event hosted by the Intelligence and National Security Alliance.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... ds-newsxml

[LawBeefaroni]

It occurs to me that it doesn't really matter where it started and with whom. I'm sure its been steadily increasing in some form or fashion for decades (or even a century or more).

What's important is that this shit needs to be reigned in, and people on both sides need to realize (myself included) that no matter what happens under an administration that you might like, eventually an administration that you detest will take over. The issue is larger than any one administration though. We have large autonomous government agencies spying on American citizens, using their power against American citizens to influence politics(IRS), and other shit that rips the fabric right out of what the Founders intended for this country.

Shit needs to stop. Enough is enough.

Now we're getting somewhere.

[noxiousdog]

Enough is enough.

I always thought Enough was Exodor.

[Captain Caveman]

The evidence was right in front of our noses the whole time!

[Zarathud]

Of course, stopping pre-collection of metadata means that the NSA/FBI won't be able to produce the instantaneous intel msd previously demanded in the next Benghazi or Boston Marathon or 9/11 situation. This surveillance received bipartisan support because of public demands that government have its finger of the pulse of shadowy "bad guys."

BTW, anyone who thinks China doesn't have adverse geopolitical interests or rises to the level of a clandestine enemy of the US shouldn't have been let anywhere near this operation. If you don't see China as a threat to the US, your judgment stinks.

[JSHAW]

It occurs to me that it doesn't really matter where it started and with whom. I'm sure its been steadily increasing in some form or fashion for decades (or even a century or more).

What's important is that this shit needs to be reigned in, and people on both sides need to realize (myself included) that no matter what happens under an administration that you might like, eventually an administration that you detest will take over. The issue is larger than any one administration though. We have large autonomous government agencies spying on American citizens, using their power against American citizens to influence politics(IRS), and other shit that rips the fabric right out of what the Founders intended for this country.

Shit needs to stop. Enough is enough.

THANK YOU!!!

I said "current administration" BECAUSE they're the one's currently running these programs. CORRECT? The people in charge of these programs, they currently work for the commander-in-chief OF the U.S, CORRECT?

As msduncan said this should not matter what your party affiliation is, it should matter that there needs to be a larger scale discussion on how these programs are being run, and not just being discussed in secret, by a secret panel of judges, and that info never get's released because it's all secret
and can't be taken to task in an open court because all the court decisions are kept secret.

I have zero problem with the intelligence agencies using the latest and greatest technology in doing their job protecting America. What I have a problem with is the massive scale of spying on American citizens that have committed no crimes and aren't under investigation of any crimes.

The monitoring of ALL American citizens BECAUSE they can? Nah nah nah, that bird doesn't fly straight.

If you're willing to give up all your freedom and privacy for the umbrella of security, that's pretty sad, pathetic, and scary.

[Anonymous Bosch]

I thought Matt Apuzzo of the Associated Press raised a valid point:

If the programs needed secrecy to succeed, will NSA shut them down now? If not, did they ever need be secret? Or did I just blow your mind?

— Matt Apuzzo (@mattapuzzo) June 7, 2013

Mike Riggs at Reason.com follows up, explaining why the Obama administration wanted the NSA data-mining program kept secret:

…

But there actually is an explanation, and it's laid out really well by Jennifer Hoelzer, former communications director for Patriot Act critic Sen. Ron Wyden (D-Ore.). Here's Hoelzer in the Huffington Post explaining how the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court (FISC) decides when to grant data-mining authority to the NSA:

[E]ven if one of these [FISC] judges issued a controversial ruling the decision can be appealed right?

Technically, yes. But who's going to appeal it?

Let me give you an example. Let's say a police officer wants to strip search you. You've done nothing wrong, but the police officer disagrees and says he needs to strip you to prove it. Under the criminal justice system, you get to bring that argument to a judge, who will issue a ruling only after listening to the government's reasons for wanting to strip search you and your reasons for why they shouldn't be allowed to do that. In the event that the judge rules against you and finds that the police officer has probable cause to search you, not only do you have a right to appeal that judge's decision all the way to the Supreme Court, you are welcome to talk to as many reporters, friends, relatives and elected officials as you want to along the way. And, if the public doesn't agree with the police force's policy on strip-searching, they can pressure lawmakers to change the law or -- if in California -- push for a ballot measure.

However, let's say the government wants Verizon to hand over all of your phone records (not just who you call, but who calls you, how long your conversations were and where you were when you had the conversation). You're never going to know about it, much less get a chance to argue against it. The FISC judge who signs off on the government's data collection will only hear the government's argument for why it should be lawfully allowed to collect data on you. If the judge rules against the government, the government can appeal the decision, but if/when the judge agrees with the government there is no other side to appeal the decision. Moreover, the judge's ruling is classified, so even if the ruling is outlandish, it can't be reported or even debated on the Senate floor.

So, the Administration could be relying on some crazy/twisted interpretations of the Patriot Act and we'd never know about it?

That is what Senator Wyden has been warning, starting as far back as July 2008 when he first argued for the declassification of FISA court opinions. I think he put it best when he said "reading the text of the Patriot Act without the secret court opinions is like being able to read McCain-Feingold without being allowed to know about Citizens United." Congress passed the Patriot Act, but Congress can't debate whether or not the Administration is interpreting the Patriot Act the way it intended the Patriot Act to be interpreted. Moreover, the American People aren't being given an opportunity to weigh in.

But the Justice Department says this authority is essential to national security. Wouldn't telling the American people undermine that?

By that logic it could be argued that all surveillance laws should be kept secret in order to make it harder for adversaries to guess how we collect intelligence, but that's not how a democracy works. American citizens are supposed to have a say in the laws that govern them and no matter how noble the Justice Department's intentions are, its officials don't have the right to substitute their judgment for the judgment of the American people. In the event that they have doubts that the American people will support a program they believe is necessary to national security, they are obligated to bring that program up for debate, not classify it and hope no one finds out.

In other words, they want to keep it secret because that's the only way to prevent any sort of meaningful check or balance on executive power.

[Pyperkub]

Anything you have ever done or said is now admitted in the court of law. This is where we are now. Oh, and you don't get to argue it, because you are barred from ever knowing that you were actually judged in the court of law and sentenced to death.

Or was al awlaki ever notified that he had been sentenced to death, and anyone with him was guilty and sentenced as well?

This isn't freedom, it's tyranny. It's Nixon's enemies list, taken to the googleplex level.

Cheney set it up, and Barack used it to its fullest extent. We got bin Laden, and it has to go away again. And it has to go away again in such a fashion that it can't be reassembled.

In other words, Privacy law needs to outlaw current private industry data mining as well, so that the data currently collected for profit by private industry needs to be protected, anonymized and destroyed. It does no good to leave this in verizon/at&t/google/facebook/visa/mastercard/chase/etc's hands to be taken whenever the government sees fit under the shroud of star chamber national security secrecy.

[Rip]

Yet if we let the evolution of our machines dictate the evolution of our policy, the only possible result is what Snowden calls "turnkey tyranny."
As I have argued in other contexts, the best weapon against the paralysis of technologically induced present shock is human intervention. Just as we the people stood against the structural tyranny of an overreaching monarchy, it is we the people who must stand against the structural tyranny of runaway technology.
Snowden is a hero because he realized that our very humanity was being compromised by the blind implementation of machines in the name of making us safe. Unlike those around him, who were too absorbed in their task to reflect on their actions and pause in their pursuit of digital omniscience, Snowden allowed himself to be "disturbed" by what he was doing.
More in the midst of technology than most of us will ever be, Snowden disengaged for long enough to be human and to consider the impact of what he was helping build. He pressed pause.
Thank heavens our intelligence agencies are staffed by people like Snowden, not robots. People can still think.

http://www.cnn.com/2013/06/10/opinion/r ... ?hpt=hp_t4

[Zarathud]

Spoiler:

Nothing to see here.

Double mortoned and ret-conned.

[JSHAW]

If you don't want to be a Constitution ignoring elitist, don't work for the Government.. Seriously. Hero my ass.

Mortoned.

I'm sure the $200,000 salary Snowden was making had some impact on his willingness to work for the Government, up until a point
where he hit the pause button on his life and decided to go the path he's on now.

Some time in the future this should make a damn good movie. Right now the hunter is now the hunted. I'm thinking he's thinking
about all the Bourne movies he watched and how all the powers are being brought to bear on finding him and bringing him back to
the U.S. The guy is either scared shitless or maintaining his wits about himself.

If his credit cards haven't been shut down then any time he uses it "they" are gonna know where he is. Cash is gotta be something he's
going to run out of eventually. I'm wondering if he will reach out to Julian Assange and see if by some miracle he can get to the house
where Assange is staying.

What are the outcomes for Snowden?

Captured, brought back to U.S. to stand trial.

Find and land on a non-extradition country.

Killed?

Suicide?

[Pyperkub]

Posthumous Congressional Medal of Honor? (War on Terror and protecting US Liberties makes it the MoH and not the Gold Medal, imho, but Military Veterans may differ). I'd argue that he put his life on the line in the war on terror however.