Congressional Agency Questions Legality of Wiretaps

[Kraken]

What are the outcomes for Snowden?

If Snowden hadn't gone public, he would have disappeared without a trace.

[Zarathud]

Rip, that change to my post was way out of line. Asshole.

Disagree with me all you want, but you're not proving your point by abusing your powers.

You take a job, you do it. If you don't want the job, don't claim to be a hero by not doing it.

If you don't want to be a black hat, why the hell would you take a job at any price for the government?

This is despite whatever my feelings about the merits of the Constitutional arguments.

[Captain Caveman]

Rip, that change to my post was way out of line. Asshole.

And painfully ironic in a thread about the overreach of authority.

[Malachite]

If you're willing to give up all your freedom and privacy for the umbrella of security, that's pretty sad, pathetic, and scary.

But we were told if we weren't willing to do all this, we were un-American, and we were supporting the terrorists! What happened to all of that?

How come congress can get together and pass laws to allow the government to spy on all Americans but can't agree on anything else?

Because it was done back when the Republicans wanted it really, really badly, and were in control, and the Democrats, idiots that they are, aren't obstructionist assholes.

Rip, that change to my post was way out of line. Asshole.

And painfully ironic in a thread about the overreach of authority.

Plus eleventy.

[Isgrimnur]

In addition to the boilerplate, "we got your e-mail message," I actually got a reply from Congressman Marchant('s office):

Dear [Isgrimnur],

Thank you for contacting me about the surveillance of Americans by the National Security Agency. When considering the issues before me, it is important to know the views and concerns of my constituents and I appreciate you giving me the opportunity to respond.

The scope and depth of the surveillance on American citizens under this Administration is unacceptable. There is always a careful balance that must be met between securing public safety and the erosion of our civil liberties, and the recent Administration scandals make it difficult to trust them with this kind of power. I will work with my House colleagues who share these concerns to make sure that we get all of the facts about these programs and ensure that our civil liberties are continually protected.

Again, thank you for expressing your concerns to me. I greatly value your opinion and encourage you to contact me with your thoughts and questions. Please visit my website, http://www.marchant.house.gov" target="_blank, and sign up for my e-newsletter to stay updated on how I am serving you and the 24th District of Texas. It is an honor to represent you in Congress and I look forward to hearing from you again soon.

Sincerely,

Kenny Marchant
Member of Congress

My issues in the long term are with the blued portions. But for right now, I'll take it. In the long term aggregate, I have trouble trusting any administration with taking the ability to mine our data records in aggregate without probable cause.

[Victoria Raverna]

In addition to the boilerplate, "we got your e-mail message," I actually got a reply from Congressman Marchant('s office):

Dear [Isgrimnur],

Thank you for contacting me about the surveillance of Americans by the National Security Agency. When considering the issues before me, it is important to know the views and concerns of my constituents and I appreciate you giving me the opportunity to respond.

The scope and depth of the surveillance on American citizens under this Administration is unacceptable. There is always a careful balance that must be met between securing public safety and the erosion of our civil liberties, and the recent Administration scandals make it difficult to trust them with this kind of power. I will work with my House colleagues who share these concerns to make sure that we get all of the facts about these programs and ensure that our civil liberties are continually protected.

Again, thank you for expressing your concerns to me. I greatly value your opinion and encourage you to contact me with your thoughts and questions. Please visit my website, http://www.marchant.house.gov" target="_blank, and sign up for my e-newsletter to stay updated on how I am serving you and the 24th District of Texas. It is an honor to represent you in Congress and I look forward to hearing from you again soon.

Sincerely,

Kenny Marchant
Member of Congress

My issues in the long term are with the blued portions. But for right now, I'll take it. In the long term aggregate, I have trouble trusting any administration with taking the ability to mine our data records in aggregate without probable cause.

Where are the blued portions?

[Isgrimnur]

...redded portions?

I started with blue, then realized they don't show up well on the dark template I use.

[Rip]

Rip, that change to my post was way out of line. Asshole.

Disagree with me all you want, but you're not proving your point by abusing your powers.

You take a job, you do it. If you don't want the job, don't claim to be a hero by not doing it.

If you don't want to be a black hat, why the hell would you take a job at any price for the government?

This is despite whatever my feelings about the merits of the Constitutional arguments.

Crap. That was NOT intentional. I thought I was editing my response to the post and borked it up...apparently. I had to go back just to see what the hell you were talking about.

Just imagine when someone at the NSA makes such a mindless mistake.


edit to add: I think I fixed it, not sure I remember you exact words though, please let me know if I screwed that up as well. I will forget the response to your post as there would be no funny left in it.

[Zarathud]

The above works close enough.

I'm pretty sure the NSA just reads our e-mail, without editing. And that you want to be a white hat, not a black one.

[cheeba]

I'll vote for any (D) or (R) who runs on a campaign of repealing these powers and ending Obama's surveillance state.

Then do you consider Obama's recent speech about ending the War on Terror a step in that direction, or are you in the "Obama declares defeat!" camp?

I guess I would have to say neither. I doubt that anyone here believes that ending the War on Terror (while drone strikes continue, of course) would mean that Obama wouldn't continue the data mining.

[Rip]

It would seem there is even more to come.

As U.S. federal agents build a case against the contractor who exposed controversial electronic surveillance programs by the National Security Agency, one of the journalists who has been working with him says more secrets are set to be revealed soon.
"There are extremely invasive spying programs that the public still does not know about that the NSA regularly engages in or other capabilities that they're developing," said Glenn Greenwald, a columnist for the Guardian, the British newspaper that broke the first story based on secret NSA documents.
"To the extent we can shine light on them and bring transparency to them consistent with national security, we fully intend to do so and to do so as quickly as we can," he said in an interview with CNN's Christiane Amanpour on Monday.
Greenwald received the documents from Edward Snowden, a 29-year-old employee at the computer consultant Booz Allen Hamilton, a contractor for the U.S. electronic intelligence agency.

http://www.cnn.com/2013/06/11/politics/ ... index.html

[Defiant]

I'm a little amused that people are focusing on blaming Obama, Bush, Cheney, Democrats, Republicans or government in general. That' misses half of the problem.

[RLMullen]

The above works close enough.

I'm pretty sure the NSA just reads our e-mail, without editing. And that you want to be a white hat, not a black one.

How can you be sure that they aren't editing email? You can't.

As silly as my question is, and I admit that it's silly, the problem with this whole damned program is its inherent secrecy. There is NO oversight. We kid ourselves and feel comfortable that our elected officials are providing oversight, but how do we know? Any system that requires that those providing oversight actually become a part of the machine isn't a system that has over sight. It is a circle jerk of epic proportions.

[Defiant]

How can you be sure that they aren't editing email? You can't.

You can. Well, you can do a pretty good job of it.

[LawBeefaroni]

Lol:

Such methods are in demand. But you can’t just listen to the phone call in Russia; you need a special order from court. This is how this should be done in civilized society while tackling terrorism with the use of any technical means. If it is in the framework of the law, then it’s ok. If not, it is unacceptable.

- Vladimir Putin

Commenting on Obama’s statement that “You can’t have 100 per cent security and 100 per cent privacy,” Putin disagreed, saying it possible if done within the law.

[silverjon]

So... hang on a tick... are they both saying 100% security is possible?

That might be the silliest thing about either statement.

[cheeba]

In addition to the boilerplate, "we got your e-mail message," I actually got a reply from Congressman Marchant('s office):

And I haven't even gotten the "we got your e-mail" message yet from either my senator or congressman. Bastards.

[Fretmute]

In addition to the boilerplate, "we got your e-mail message," I actually got a reply from Congressman Marchant('s office):

And I haven't even gotten the "we got your e-mail" message yet from either my senator or congressman. Bastards.

Of course not. They failed the keyword filter and were memory-holed.

[cheeba]

OK considering how drama-queeny his girlfriend is, I'm thinking he did it just to get away from her.

"My world has opened and closed all at once. Leaving me lost at sea without a compass," Mills, a 28-year-old professional pole dancer, wrote on her blog, "L's Journey," on Monday. ... "As I type this on my tear-streaked keyboard I’m reflecting on all the faces that have graced my path," ... "Surely there will be villainous pirates, distracting mermaids, and tides of change in this new open water chapter of my journey,"

Ugh. But uh, professional pole dancer?

[Rip]

Why the surprise? It has long been a government status symbol to befriend as many professional pole dancers as is feasible. Once you get to a dozen you get a cabinet position.

[Defiant]

In addition to the boilerplate, "we got your e-mail message," I actually got a reply from Congressman Marchant('s office):

And I haven't even gotten the "we got your e-mail" message yet from either my senator or congressman. Bastards.

To be fair, that reply was probably generated by the NSA.

Actually, that would be a really good way of selling the program - have the NSA read and summarize all your incoming emails and reply to the all the one's requiring a reply so you don't have to.

They could even rename the S in NSA to Secretary.

[stessier]

Interesting.

ThinkProgress ‏@thinkprogress 12m
BREAKING: Google asks government to let them reveal how many national security data requests they get http://thkpr.gs/11F6gi9" target="_blank

Keeps the pressure on.

[LawBeefaroni]

You can't swing a dead whistleblower without hitting a conflict of interest the size of a Blackwater APC.


Booz Allen Hamilton (BAH), where Snowden worked, got about 25% of it's revenue from federal "intelligence" work.

The Vice Chairman of BAH is John Michael McConnell. Yes, that John Michael McConnell. Former NSA Director and former US Director of National Intelligence.

The largest stakeholder in BAH is the Carlyle Group at 67% as of last Q. Yes, that Carlyle Group.

[Defiant]

However, Republicans and Democrats have had very different views of the two operations. Today, only about half of Republicans (52%) say it is acceptable for the NSA to obtain court orders to track phone call records of millions of Americans to investigate terrorism. In January 2006, fully 75% of Republicans said it was acceptable for the NSA to investigate suspected terrorists by listening in on phone calls and reading emails without court approval.

Democrats now view the NSA’s phone surveillance as acceptable by 64% to 34%. In January 2006, by a similar margin (61% to 36%), Democrats said it was unacceptable for the NSA to scrutinize phone calls and emails of suspected terrorists.

http://www.people-press.org/2013/06/10/ ... or-tactic/" target="_blank

[LawBeefaroni]

However, Republicans and Democrats have had very different views of the two operations. Today, only about half of Republicans (52%) say it is acceptable for the NSA to obtain court orders to track phone call records of millions of Americans to investigate terrorism. In January 2006, fully 75% of Republicans said it was acceptable for the NSA to investigate suspected terrorists by listening in on phone calls and reading emails without court approval.

Democrats now view the NSA’s phone surveillance as acceptable by 64% to 34%. In January 2006, by a similar margin (61% to 36%), Democrats said it was unacceptable for the NSA to scrutinize phone calls and emails of suspected terrorists.

http://www.people-press.org/2013/06/10/ ... or-tactic/" target="_blank

Divide et impera.

[malchior]

We're unfortunately a nation of overly sheltered fools; hopefully we don't pay for it. All it'll take is another good crisis - and we could have some real problems. My favorite part of that survey btw is that the support clearly tracks based on party who controls the White House -- I just shake my head at that major bit of foolishness.

[noxiousdog]

We're unfortunately a nation of overly sheltered fools; hopefully we don't pay for it. All it'll take is another good crisis - and we could have some real problems.

This is a side effect of everything being scary and the government has to protect us.

[stessier]

So what will it take to make the pendulum swing back? It took Nixon for the last big swing to decrease governmental power - but that was just about politics. I mean, there was no enemy they could point to that they were trying to fight. The big increase came with 9/11 obviously. What could happen to reverse the trend?

[malchior]

We're unfortunately a nation of overly sheltered fools; hopefully we don't pay for it. All it'll take is another good crisis - and we could have some real problems.

This is a side effect of everything being scary and the government has to protect us.

I see it as a touch of that, a touch of tribalism and big helping of political myopia . How can they not see the direct flaw? -- their party will not always be in power. In a parliamentary system I could forgive this to a degree but it is mindbogglingly ignorant considering our system and its history -- heck we've had a major swing in party control of various institutions in just the last 10 years.

[LawBeefaroni]

So what will it take to make the pendulum swing back? It took Nixon for the last big swing to decrease governmental power - but that was just about politics. I mean, there was no enemy they could point to that they were trying to fight. The big increase came with 9/11 obviously. What could happen to reverse the trend?

It won't swing back. They have tipped the balance of control. There's a point at which you can't take back power without a reset.


We're now conditioned. All it takes is a small bomb or natural disaster and everyone runs screaming back to the federal bosom. Throw in the occasional Big One and they've won.

[Alefroth]

Rip, that change to my post was way out of line. Asshole.

Disagree with me all you want, but you're not proving your point by abusing your powers.

You take a job, you do it. If you don't want the job, don't claim to be a hero by not doing it.

If you don't want to be a black hat, why the hell would you take a job at any price for the government?

This is despite whatever my feelings about the merits of the Constitutional arguments.

Crap. That was NOT intentional. I thought I was editing my response to the post and borked it up...apparently. I had to go back just to see what the hell you were talking about.

Just imagine when someone at the NSA makes such a mindless mistake.


edit to add: I think I fixed it, not sure I remember you exact words though, please let me know if I screwed that up as well. I will forget the response to your post as there would be no funny left in it.

Coverup!!

Ale

[Rip]

Rip, that change to my post was way out of line. Asshole.

Disagree with me all you want, but you're not proving your point by abusing your powers.

You take a job, you do it. If you don't want the job, don't claim to be a hero by not doing it.

If you don't want to be a black hat, why the hell would you take a job at any price for the government?

This is despite whatever my feelings about the merits of the Constitutional arguments.

Crap. That was NOT intentional. I thought I was editing my response to the post and borked it up...apparently. I had to go back just to see what the hell you were talking about.

Just imagine when someone at the NSA makes such a mindless mistake.


edit to add: I think I fixed it, not sure I remember you exact words though, please let me know if I screwed that up as well. I will forget the response to your post as there would be no funny left in it.

Coverup!!

Ale

But, but, I am covered up?



You don't want to see Rip don't look.

[Defiant]

I'm amused that everyone seems to be focusing over the government.

The issue is bigger than that.

[noxiousdog]

I'm amused that everyone seems to be focusing over the government.

The issue is bigger than that.

I wasn't.

[noxiousdog]

We're unfortunately a nation of overly sheltered fools; hopefully we don't pay for it. All it'll take is another good crisis - and we could have some real problems.

This is a side effect of everything being scary and the government has to protect us.

I see it as a touch of that, a touch of tribalism and big helping of political myopia . How can they not see the direct flaw? -- their party will not always be in power. In a parliamentary system I could forgive this to a degree but it is mindbogglingly ignorant considering our system and its history -- heck we've had a major swing in party control of various institutions in just the last 10 years.

Sure that's some of it. But it's not limited to government. Save us from the scary drunk drivers. Save us from the smokers. Save the kids from crossing the street. Save us from marijuana. Save us from gambling. Save us from bicycle crashes. Save us from job loss. Save us from retirement income. Save us from stock market crashes. Save us from property loss. Save us from hurricanes. Save us from bullies.

Save us from the terrorists is a damn near natural right if the government is supposed to do all those other things and we're willing to give up freedom for it right and left.

[Defiant]

I'm amused that everyone seems to be focusing over the government.

The issue is bigger than that.

I wasn't.

It's bigger than "things we're afraid of" as well.

[Defiant]

Sales of 1984 jump

[noxiousdog]

It's bigger than "things we're afraid of" as well.

But that's the enabler, imo.

[stessier]

Heh, Snowden might have come out a few months ago but he had trouble finding someone with encrypted email to correspond with.

According to recent articles in The New York Times and The Huffington Post, Greenwald first heard from National Security Agency (NSA) whistleblower Edward Snowden in either January or February. Snowden said he had information that would be of "great interest" and said he wanted to communicate securely using PGP encryption. According to accounts by both publications, the request was a nonstarter.

"Mr. Greenwald wrote back that he did not have such software," the NYT reported. "Mr. Snowden later sent him a homemade video with step-by-step instructions for installing it, which Mr. Greenwald watched but never completed."

[Defiant]

It's bigger than "things we're afraid of" as well.

But that's the enabler, imo.

It's an enabler, sure, but hardly the only one. Probably not even the biggest one.