Amazon has whacked our affiliate account. Hosting Donations/Commitments $2063 of $1920 (Sept 13/18). In Hand $1466 (Lump sum payments minus paypal graft). Paypal Donation Link Here

US space policy

For discussion of religion and politics

Moderators: LawBeefaroni, $iljanus

User avatar
Kraken
Posts: 33958
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 11:59 pm
Location: The Hub of the Universe
Contact:
Kraken’s avatar
Online

Post by Kraken » Thu Feb 07, 2008 5:23 pm

RunningMn9 wrote:Ironrod, I just sat down to read through Obama's position statements, and noticed what seems to be a message for you, right there at the top:
Obama wrote:But I also hope that this booklet sparks a dialogue and that after you’ve finished reading it, you get in touch with our campaign and give us your thoughts on the policies you find here. It’s time to put government back in your hands, where it belongs. If we want to have policies that are good for the American people, then we need the American people to help shape those policies.
See? He's open to talking about it. I would get in touch with his campaign, and provide your thoughts. It can't hurt. It might help.
So "put up or shut up", eh? Maybe I will. I've never written to a politician in my life, although I did send a scathing letter to NBC when they canceled Star Trek. I'm very skeptical that a letter unaccompanied by a check would get any attention.

User avatar
RunningMn9
Posts: 22935
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 11:55 pm
Location: The Sword Coast
Contact:

Post by RunningMn9 » Thu Feb 07, 2008 5:30 pm

Ironrod wrote:So "put up or shut up", eh? Maybe I will. I've never written to a politician in my life, although I did send a scathing letter to NBC when they canceled Star Trek. I'm very skeptical that a letter unaccompanied by a check would get any attention.
Politicians care about votes too. I've found them generally responsive to correspondence in the past. YMMV. Although he's a little busy now, so it might take some time.
And in banks across the world
Christians, Moslems, Hindus, Jews
And every other race, creed, colour, tint or hue
Get down on their knees and pray
The raccoon and the groundhog neatly
Make up bags of change
But the monkey in the corner
Well he's slowly drifting out of range

pengo
Posts: 2899
Joined: Sun Feb 06, 2005 11:42 pm

Post by pengo » Thu Feb 07, 2008 7:55 pm

The best hope you have imho is for Iran or China or even Russia to launch a program to land a man on mars before the USA. Heck if Iran or China put a strong effort behind setting up a perm base on the moon, I'm sure the USA would fall over themselves in the effort to try and beat them.

Without competition there is no real motivation. Still the Mars Pathfinder etc missions were good!

User avatar
RunningMn9
Posts: 22935
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 11:55 pm
Location: The Sword Coast
Contact:

Post by RunningMn9 » Thu Feb 07, 2008 8:34 pm

pengo wrote:The best hope you have imho is for Iran or China or even Russia to launch a program to land a man on mars before the USA. Heck if Iran or China put a strong effort behind setting up a perm base on the moon, I'm sure the USA would fall over themselves in the effort to try and beat them.
The best hope we have is to drop the pretense of sending Americans, Russians, or the Chinese to Mars. We should spend our time worrying about sending humans to Mars, and work together.

Of course, that's what we are doing right now.
And in banks across the world
Christians, Moslems, Hindus, Jews
And every other race, creed, colour, tint or hue
Get down on their knees and pray
The raccoon and the groundhog neatly
Make up bags of change
But the monkey in the corner
Well he's slowly drifting out of range

pengo
Posts: 2899
Joined: Sun Feb 06, 2005 11:42 pm

Post by pengo » Thu Feb 07, 2008 9:08 pm

Then all parties need to contribute to the funding and not just the Americans :)

User avatar
RunningMn9
Posts: 22935
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 11:55 pm
Location: The Sword Coast
Contact:

Post by RunningMn9 » Fri Feb 08, 2008 12:51 am

pengo wrote:Then all parties need to contribute to the funding and not just the Americans :)
It would be nice to not have to always foot the bill. I'm guessing that we'll still end up footing the bill.
And in banks across the world
Christians, Moslems, Hindus, Jews
And every other race, creed, colour, tint or hue
Get down on their knees and pray
The raccoon and the groundhog neatly
Make up bags of change
But the monkey in the corner
Well he's slowly drifting out of range

User avatar
Kraken
Posts: 33958
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 11:59 pm
Location: The Hub of the Universe
Contact:
Kraken’s avatar
Online

Post by Kraken » Fri Feb 08, 2008 1:23 am

pengo wrote:Then all parties need to contribute to the funding and not just the Americans :)
That's how we got the ISS.

User avatar
Gryndyl
Posts: 4710
Joined: Tue Jan 11, 2005 1:12 pm
Location: Washington

Post by Gryndyl » Fri Feb 08, 2008 3:18 pm

Ironrod wrote:
RunningMn9 wrote:Ironrod, I just sat down to read through Obama's position statements, and noticed what seems to be a message for you, right there at the top:
Obama wrote:But I also hope that this booklet sparks a dialogue and that after you’ve finished reading it, you get in touch with our campaign and give us your thoughts on the policies you find here. It’s time to put government back in your hands, where it belongs. If we want to have policies that are good for the American people, then we need the American people to help shape those policies.
See? He's open to talking about it. I would get in touch with his campaign, and provide your thoughts. It can't hurt. It might help.
So "put up or shut up", eh? Maybe I will. I've never written to a politician in my life, although I did send a scathing letter to NBC when they canceled Star Trek. I'm very skeptical that a letter unaccompanied by a check would get any attention.
I just wrote-first time I've ever written to a politician. Go to his website and click the little tiny 'contact us' link at the bottom. I'll post an AAR should I get a response :P

User avatar
Kraken
Posts: 33958
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 11:59 pm
Location: The Hub of the Universe
Contact:
Kraken’s avatar
Online

Post by Kraken » Fri Feb 08, 2008 3:39 pm

Gryndyl wrote:
Ironrod wrote:
RunningMn9 wrote:Ironrod, I just sat down to read through Obama's position statements, and noticed what seems to be a message for you, right there at the top:
Obama wrote:But I also hope that this booklet sparks a dialogue and that after you’ve finished reading it, you get in touch with our campaign and give us your thoughts on the policies you find here. It’s time to put government back in your hands, where it belongs. If we want to have policies that are good for the American people, then we need the American people to help shape those policies.
See? He's open to talking about it. I would get in touch with his campaign, and provide your thoughts. It can't hurt. It might help.
So "put up or shut up", eh? Maybe I will. I've never written to a politician in my life, although I did send a scathing letter to NBC when they canceled Star Trek. I'm very skeptical that a letter unaccompanied by a check would get any attention.
I just wrote-first time I've ever written to a politician. Go to his website and click the little tiny 'contact us' link at the bottom. I'll post an AAR should I get a response :P
Did you send email or a paper letter?

User avatar
The Meal
Posts: 26474
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 10:33 pm
Location: 2005 Stanley Cup Champion
the_meal’s avatar
Loading…

Post by The Meal » Fri Feb 08, 2008 4:31 pm

I only fired off an email (I concluded prior to RM9's impassioned pleas, that I owe the big O a letter), as I currently lack a printer on my home PC to generate a paper copy.

I reread this to get me in the right mood:
http://www.parade.com/articles/editions ... 2007/Space

~Neal
Not a pathological narcissist.

User avatar
RunningMn9
Posts: 22935
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 11:55 pm
Location: The Sword Coast
Contact:

Post by RunningMn9 » Fri Feb 08, 2008 4:36 pm

As I was telling Trent - the fact that I could sit there, type my little email, and send it off - and actually expect someone to read it and process it, says a lot.

Of course it might just mean that I'm a naive douche. :)
And in banks across the world
Christians, Moslems, Hindus, Jews
And every other race, creed, colour, tint or hue
Get down on their knees and pray
The raccoon and the groundhog neatly
Make up bags of change
But the monkey in the corner
Well he's slowly drifting out of range

User avatar
Kraken
Posts: 33958
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 11:59 pm
Location: The Hub of the Universe
Contact:
Kraken’s avatar
Online

Post by Kraken » Fri Feb 08, 2008 5:46 pm

RunningMn9 wrote:As I was telling Trent - the fact that I could sit there, type my little email, and send it off - and actually expect someone to read it and process it, says a lot.

Of course it might just mean that I'm a naive douche. :)
OK. I feel silly following the lead of a naive douche...but I put in my two cents, too. If I get a reply I'll post the text of my email, along with their answer. I hope that anyone else who wrote to them will do the same. It would be very interesting to compare notes.

User avatar
The Meal
Posts: 26474
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 10:33 pm
Location: 2005 Stanley Cup Champion
the_meal’s avatar
Loading…

Post by The Meal » Fri Feb 08, 2008 6:42 pm

This looks like a neat concept:

http://www.sciencedebate2008.com/www/index.php?id=8

~Neal
Not a pathological narcissist.

User avatar
Kraken
Posts: 33958
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 11:59 pm
Location: The Hub of the Universe
Contact:
Kraken’s avatar
Online

Post by Kraken » Fri Feb 08, 2008 8:04 pm

The Meal wrote:This looks like a neat concept:

http://www.sciencedebate2008.com/www/index.php?id=8

~Neal
Wouldn't it be cool if the scientific community could grill the candidates the way the fundies do? White-coated scientist holds up a copy of the Origin of Species and asks "Do you believe that every word in this book is literally true?" :lol:

So far the Obamoids have sent me an automated acknowledgment and one fundraising spam. I think I'm going to regret giving them my email address.

User avatar
Gebeker
Posts: 795
Joined: Wed Oct 20, 2004 7:35 pm
Location: Rochester, NY

Post by Gebeker » Mon Feb 11, 2008 7:12 am

JohnnyFive wrote:Why so concerned about NASA, though? What about NIH and NSF funding?
Indeed, the grant situation right now is almost unimaginably bad. Several years ago, a representative of NIH spoke to a group of neuroscientists at a conference I went to. Things were really bad even then. When she told us the percentage of grants that were being funded, roughly half of the people in the room gasped. As bad as it was then, things have gotten even worse now. The funding rate now is about half what it was then.

If the next president/congress doesn't substantially increase the NIH budget, medical research in this country is going to take a major hit, with a lot of excellent scientists simply being forced out of research.
Fascism should more appropriately be called Corporatism because it is a merger of state and corporate power -- Benito Mussolini

User avatar
Eightball
Posts: 9969
Joined: Fri Oct 22, 2004 12:14 pm
Location: In a fog.

Post by Eightball » Mon Feb 11, 2008 11:01 am

Gebeker wrote:If the next president/congress doesn't substantially increase the NIH budget, medical research in this country is going to take a major hit, with a lot of excellent scientists simply being forced out of research.
FDA and NIH both need substantial budget increases imho. I've said that here multiple times.
Stupid & lazy

JohnnyFive
Posts: 552
Joined: Wed Jan 05, 2005 11:41 am
Location: Durham, NC

Post by JohnnyFive » Mon Feb 11, 2008 12:14 pm

Gebeker wrote:
JohnnyFive wrote:Why so concerned about NASA, though? What about NIH and NSF funding?
Indeed, the grant situation right now is almost unimaginably bad. Several years ago, a representative of NIH spoke to a group of neuroscientists at a conference I went to. Things were really bad even then. When she told us the percentage of grants that were being funded, roughly half of the people in the room gasped. As bad as it was then, things have gotten even worse now. The funding rate now is about half what it was then.

If the next president/congress doesn't substantially increase the NIH budget, medical research in this country is going to take a major hit, with a lot of excellent scientists simply being forced out of research.
Bush's proposed budget freezes NIH/NSF funding. The NSF is reported as saying that they have 'reached the limit' for doing more with less. Seriously guys, I love NASA and stuff, but messing with NIH/NSF is probably going to have a much bigger impact on the USA than messing with the space program.

User avatar
Kraken
Posts: 33958
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 11:59 pm
Location: The Hub of the Universe
Contact:
Kraken’s avatar
Online

Post by Kraken » Mon Feb 11, 2008 12:51 pm

JohnnyFive wrote:
Gebeker wrote:
JohnnyFive wrote:Why so concerned about NASA, though? What about NIH and NSF funding?
Indeed, the grant situation right now is almost unimaginably bad. Several years ago, a representative of NIH spoke to a group of neuroscientists at a conference I went to. Things were really bad even then. When she told us the percentage of grants that were being funded, roughly half of the people in the room gasped. As bad as it was then, things have gotten even worse now. The funding rate now is about half what it was then.

If the next president/congress doesn't substantially increase the NIH budget, medical research in this country is going to take a major hit, with a lot of excellent scientists simply being forced out of research.
Bush's proposed budget freezes NIH/NSF funding. The NSF is reported as saying that they have 'reached the limit' for doing more with less. Seriously guys, I love NASA and stuff, but messing with NIH/NSF is probably going to have a much bigger impact on the USA than messing with the space program.
Health and medicine certainly trump spaceflight in the promise of tangible benefits, but they're so BO-ring. Every week the Globe's Health/Science section is 90% medicine-related. Boston is a medical Mecca. I'm sure that's where their readership lies and it drives the local economy. The squishy sciences just don't interest me at all. So I'm concerned with NASA on a personal level.

But you're setting up a false conflict here.

The Dems will deliver major funding increases to the health sciences in the next few years. Winding down the occupation of Iraq and raising taxes on the rich are going to pay off bigtime, and both major candidates have made clear their intention to funnel most of that money into the medical establishment. This would not come at NASA's expense under Clinton or McCain (as far as we know). Only Obama intends to gut NASA. And NASA's billions are earmarked for the education bureaucracy, not for medical research.

That is both short-sighted and ineffective. You won't improve science and engineering education by building more buildings and paying more adminstrators. You improve education by motivating students to learn. NASA has a good history of doing exactly that, and manned spaceflight gets much of the credit.

User avatar
Pyperkub
Posts: 18996
Joined: Mon Dec 13, 2004 5:07 pm
Location: NC- that's Northern California
Contact:

Post by Pyperkub » Mon Feb 11, 2008 3:00 pm

If you are under 35, then Man has never walked on the moon in your lifetime, nor any other body of non-terrestrial origin.
There are three ways to not tell the truth: lies, damned lies, and statistics.

JohnnyFive
Posts: 552
Joined: Wed Jan 05, 2005 11:41 am
Location: Durham, NC

Post by JohnnyFive » Wed Feb 13, 2008 10:56 am

I'm not saying that there's necessarily a conflict between NASA and NIH/NSF funding, but I am surprised to hear people making a big fuss over NASA, and ignoring the rest of the current science budget. Research money is at half the level we had in the 1970's, and this will have an affect on the USA's technological leadership and development.

For example:

http://www.newsobserver.com/news/higher ... 41190.html
Congress slashed funding for national laboratories, for an international nuclear fusion program, for high-energy physics and for nanotechnology. Research hours are being cut, grants will go unfunded and construction on new labs has been delayed.

"The thing that's so important is that funding for basic research. I mean, that's the seed corn upon which future technology is built," said Jim Siedow, Duke's vice provost for research.

U.S. Secretary of Energy Samuel W. Bodman warned this month that more than 500 scientists and technicians could lose their jobs or their university support as a result of the cuts. Another 500 won't be hired.

Brodhead and other presidents from the Association of American Universities have been lobbying for increased research, saying the benefits will help the United States stay competitive in a global economy.

They were joined Tuesday by economic leaders who said the cuts will disrupt basic research, diminish the international scientific credibility of the United States and discourage promising university students from pursuing careers in the physical sciences.

"I don't think people in the American public really understand what's happening today in this area, and what's happening with the economy tomorrow," said Christopher Hansen, president and chief executive officer at the American Electronics Association, whose members include Microsoft and Intel.
I mean, you like manned spaceflight, great, so do I, but there is a far bigger emergency happening right now ... and honestly, personally, out of all the engineering students I went to school with, very few were motivated by manned spaceflight.

User avatar
Kraken
Posts: 33958
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 11:59 pm
Location: The Hub of the Universe
Contact:
Kraken’s avatar
Online

Post by Kraken » Fri Feb 22, 2008 12:44 pm

Since I emailed my question I've been getting 3-4 spams per week from the Obama campaign. I didn't opt in, and there's no unsubscribe link, so I have to put him in my bozo filter. In the unlikely event that they answer my email, I won't see the reply.

If anybody else ever gets an answer to your emails about his space policy, kindly pass them along.

RLMullen
Posts: 3591
Joined: Thu Nov 04, 2004 4:21 pm
Location: Somewhere between Louisburg and Raleigh NC

Post by RLMullen » Fri Feb 22, 2008 2:15 pm

JohnnyFive wrote:lots of bitching about WHERE science funding should go.
Have you ever thought about just how many scientific disciplines are required for manned space flight? The answer is ALL OF THEM! The best way to get funding increased for all of science would be to embark on both the mars landing and moon colonization projects. Physics will get us to the moon, but physics alone will never allow us to LIVE on the moon; we will require significant advances in biotech, environmental sciences, medicine, etc., etc., etc.

Maybe your personal pet project won't get all of the funding that you'd like, but investment in space exploration/colonization will clearly generate greater returns to the human race than any single other investment in science. At one point back in the 70's I read an article that listed the advances that came from the space program of the 60's.

For the "Obamas" in the crowd, the best way to spur interest in education would be to embark on a multi-generational epic colonization effort. Give the kids a reason to want to study science... something more than just "getting a good job so they can afford Guitar Hero".

Lastly, MY interest in science and eventual study of software engineering is a DIRECT result of watching men walk on the moon. I'm old enough to have seen it... we spent entire days in grade school watching coverage. Like Ironrod, I'm pissed that we abandoned space. When I was in 3rd grade, I was certain that I'd be living on the moon by now. At the time that idea wasn't just a child's fantasy; many highly educated adults shared the same fantasy.

User avatar
RunningMn9
Posts: 22935
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 11:55 pm
Location: The Sword Coast
Contact:

Post by RunningMn9 » Fri Feb 22, 2008 2:18 pm

Ironrod wrote:Since I emailed my question I've been getting 3-4 spams per week from the Obama campaign. I didn't opt in, and there's no unsubscribe link, so I have to put him in my bozo filter. In the unlikely event that they answer my email, I won't see the reply.

If anybody else ever gets an answer to your emails about his space policy, kindly pass them along.
Apparently if you donate they have mercy on your inbox. I only get about two emails a week asking for more money.
And in banks across the world
Christians, Moslems, Hindus, Jews
And every other race, creed, colour, tint or hue
Get down on their knees and pray
The raccoon and the groundhog neatly
Make up bags of change
But the monkey in the corner
Well he's slowly drifting out of range

Mookee
Posts: 1175
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 11:28 pm

Post by Mookee » Fri Feb 22, 2008 2:54 pm

Ironrod: http://my.barackobama.com/page/unsubscribe/

Every email I've received from the campaign has had this link.

User avatar
Kraken
Posts: 33958
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 11:59 pm
Location: The Hub of the Universe
Contact:
Kraken’s avatar
Online

Post by Kraken » Fri Feb 22, 2008 4:42 pm

RLMullen wrote:
For the "Obamas" in the crowd, the best way to spur interest in education would be to embark on a multi-generational epic colonization effort. Give the kids a reason to want to study science... something more than just "getting a good job so they can afford Guitar Hero".
That was the gist of the argument I sent them. Pouring more money into schools and administrators only buys more mediocrity. You have to make students want to learn. But the Dems have been kowtowing to the teachers unions for a very long time.
RLMullen wrote:When I was in 3rd grade, I was certain that I'd be living on the moon by now. At the time that idea wasn't just a child's fantasy; many highly educated adults shared the same fantasy.
Including NASA, which planned to establish a Mars colony by 1985 using Apollo hardware. There is no reason we couldn't have done it except loss of resolve.

My lifelong interest in science started with Project Mercury. I guess the excitement just doesn't come through if you didn't live it.

RLMullen
Posts: 3591
Joined: Thu Nov 04, 2004 4:21 pm
Location: Somewhere between Louisburg and Raleigh NC

Post by RLMullen » Fri Feb 22, 2008 6:21 pm

Ironrod wrote:I guess the excitement just doesn't come through if you didn't live it.
I guess not. I think I'm a "half generation" behind you... I'm 43... born in 1965. I was extremely young during the Apollo missions, but they had a major impact on my life. Even being 4 years old to 9 years old, I couldn't escape the sense that what I was witnessing was "World Changing". Every adult was completely enthralled. There aren't many times in history that children get to see adults experience "wild eyed childhood wonder". It was really depressing when I realized that this kind of stuff doesn't happen all the time!!

User avatar
Kraken
Posts: 33958
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 11:59 pm
Location: The Hub of the Universe
Contact:
Kraken’s avatar
Online

Post by Kraken » Fri Feb 22, 2008 7:26 pm

RLMullen wrote:
Ironrod wrote:I guess the excitement just doesn't come through if you didn't live it.
I guess not. I think I'm a "half generation" behind you... I'm 43... born in 1965. I was extremely young during the Apollo missions, but they had a major impact on my life. Even being 4 years old to 9 years old, I couldn't escape the sense that what I was witnessing was "World Changing". Every adult was completely enthralled. There aren't many times in history that children get to see adults experience "wild eyed childhood wonder". It was really depressing when I realized that this kind of stuff doesn't happen all the time!!
I was born six months before Sputnik, so I grew up with the Space Age. I don't think I ever missed seeing a US manned launch. Although I don't remember all the early Mercury missions, I'm quite sure that I was aware of them. They used to bring TVs into our classrooms so that we could see them. Virtually every citizen in the USA shared that experience at the same time. I knew all the astronauts and which missions they flew and what each mission achieved. Even with my addled memory I'm still awesome at space trivia. It was anything but trivial at the time. :)

Our country was doing something genuinely special, something positive and hopeful and foresighted and adventurous, something nobody had ever done before. We were witnessing the greatest thing mankind had ever accomplished and the future looked limitless. I guess you just can't sustain something like that forever. After Apollo 11 the public grew so bored that NASA had to cancel the last three landings.

Do you suppose that a Mars mission could rekindle something like that feeling of shared purpose, or are we too jaded and socially fragmented to ever dream that big again? Maybe we really do have to leave it up to the Chinese.

User avatar
khomotso
Posts: 2180
Joined: Thu Oct 14, 2004 3:06 pm
Location: Atlanta, GA

Post by khomotso » Sun Mar 02, 2008 4:12 pm

I came across this, and thought of this thread.
Obama: "I've got a strong belief in NASA and the process of space exploration. I do think that our program has been stuck for a while - that the space shuttle mission did not inspire the imagination of the public - that much of the experimentation that was done could have been conducted not necessarily with manned flights. I think that broadening our horizons - and looking at a combination of both unmanned satellites of the sort that we saw with the Jupiter launch - but also looking at where we can start planning for potential manned flights. I think that is something that I'm excited about and could be part of a broader strategy for science and technology investment ... The only thing I want to say is that I want to do a thorough review because some of these programs may not be moving in the right direction and I want to make sure that NASA spending is a little more coherent than it has been over the last several years.

User avatar
msduncan
Posts: 14299
Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2004 11:41 pm
Location: Birmingham, Alabama

Post by msduncan » Mon Mar 03, 2008 12:15 am

khomotso wrote:I came across this, and thought of this thread.
Obama: "I've got a strong belief in NASA and the process of space exploration. I do think that our program has been stuck for a while - that the space shuttle mission did not inspire the imagination of the public - that much of the experimentation that was done could have been conducted not necessarily with manned flights. I think that broadening our horizons - and looking at a combination of both unmanned satellites of the sort that we saw with the Jupiter launch - but also looking at where we can start planning for potential manned flights. I think that is something that I'm excited about and could be part of a broader strategy for science and technology investment ... The only thing I want to say is that I want to do a thorough review because some of these programs may not be moving in the right direction and I want to make sure that NASA spending is a little more coherent than it has been over the last several years.
Let me run this through the bullshit filter:

I'm going to say I like NASA because I want every vote I can get. I think NASA costs too much so I'm going to review their budget and cut it. I don't even know the difference between a probe and a satellite, and I really don't give a shit because I'm going to use the money for my massive spending programs instead. Oh yeah...there's a manned exploration thing going on right now so I better mention that too.... but don't forget I think NASA spends too much money.
It's 109 first team All-Americans.
It's a college football record 61 bowl appearances.
It's 34 bowl victories.
It's 24 Southeastern Conference Championships.
It's 15 National Championships.

At some places they play football. At Alabama we live it.

Sarkus
Posts: 3289
Joined: Wed Oct 26, 2005 3:13 am
Location: Under a Big Sky

Post by Sarkus » Sat Mar 08, 2008 4:27 pm

A nice summary of the bad state of NASA:

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/n ... ace08.html

The headline detail: Between 2010 and at least 2015 the US will have no capacity to send anyone to the ISS, even though we paid for most of it. We will rely on the Russians, assuming our relations with them don't screw that up.

The backup plan is hoping some unproven private space company can get it's act together, best case there being sometime in 2011.

We already suck.
Foggy: You have my word as a corporal and a gentleman.
Clegg: Hitler was a corporal!
Foggy: Not in my regiment.

User avatar
Kraken
Posts: 33958
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 11:59 pm
Location: The Hub of the Universe
Contact:
Kraken’s avatar
Online

Post by Kraken » Sat Mar 08, 2008 6:21 pm

Sen. Bill Nelson, D-Fla., chairman of the subcommittee that oversees NASA, went further. "This is a very serious betrayal of American interests," he said later. "This will be the first time since Sputnik when the United States will not have a significant space superiority. I remain dumbfounded that we've allowed this serious threat to our national security to develop."
Indeed.

User avatar
abr
Posts: 731
Joined: Sun Feb 20, 2005 7:58 am

Post by abr » Sat Mar 08, 2008 6:24 pm

Sarkus wrote:The headline detail: Between 2010 and at least 2015 the US will have no capacity to send anyone to the ISS, even though we paid for most of it. We will rely on the Russians, assuming our relations with them don't screw that up.
You could also ask the ESA for a ride, if the ATV works out. ;)
Although astronauts will not launch to the ISS in the ship, the vehicle is human-rated - they can go inside its pressurised vessel without wearing spacesuits.

User avatar
msduncan
Posts: 14299
Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2004 11:41 pm
Location: Birmingham, Alabama

Post by msduncan » Sat Mar 08, 2008 8:08 pm

Ironrod wrote:
Sen. Bill Nelson, D-Fla., chairman of the subcommittee that oversees NASA, went further. "This is a very serious betrayal of American interests," he said later. "This will be the first time since Sputnik when the United States will not have a significant space superiority. I remain dumbfounded that we've allowed this serious threat to our national security to develop."
Indeed.
Oh my God. I agree with Bill Nelson.
It's 109 first team All-Americans.
It's a college football record 61 bowl appearances.
It's 34 bowl victories.
It's 24 Southeastern Conference Championships.
It's 15 National Championships.

At some places they play football. At Alabama we live it.

User avatar
Kraken
Posts: 33958
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 11:59 pm
Location: The Hub of the Universe
Contact:
Kraken’s avatar
Online

Post by Kraken » Sun Mar 09, 2008 12:54 am

abroctopus wrote: You could also ask the ESA for a ride, if the ATV works out. ;)
I wondered who was going to pick up the heavy lifting, post-shuttle. I didn't know that Ariane 5 has that much oomph.

JohnnyFive
Posts: 552
Joined: Wed Jan 05, 2005 11:41 am
Location: Durham, NC

Post by JohnnyFive » Mon Mar 10, 2008 9:58 am

RLMullen wrote:
JohnnyFive wrote:lots of bitching about WHERE science funding should go.
Have you ever thought about just how many scientific disciplines are required for manned space flight? The answer is ALL OF THEM! The best way to get funding increased for all of science would be to embark on both the mars landing and moon colonization projects. Physics will get us to the moon, but physics alone will never allow us to LIVE on the moon; we will require significant advances in biotech, environmental sciences, medicine, etc., etc., etc.

Maybe your personal pet project won't get all of the funding that you'd like, but investment in space exploration/colonization will clearly generate greater returns to the human race than any single other investment in science. At one point back in the 70's I read an article that listed the advances that came from the space program of the 60's.

For the "Obamas" in the crowd, the best way to spur interest in education would be to embark on a multi-generational epic colonization effort. Give the kids a reason to want to study science... something more than just "getting a good job so they can afford Guitar Hero".

Lastly, MY interest in science and eventual study of software engineering is a DIRECT result of watching men walk on the moon. I'm old enough to have seen it... we spent entire days in grade school watching coverage. Like Ironrod, I'm pissed that we abandoned space. When I was in 3rd grade, I was certain that I'd be living on the moon by now. At the time that idea wasn't just a child's fantasy; many highly educated adults shared the same fantasy.
Perhaps it's a generational thing -- I'm apparently much younger than you are, but while space may have been a major motivator for you, I have not really seen it as a giant motivator for me and most of the people that I know -- and I have science degrees, am working in a science field, etc. I fail to see how an investment in space will generate better returns than investment in other scientific disciplines. This is not clear to me, please clarify.

User avatar
Montag
Posts: 2589
Joined: Wed Nov 03, 2004 2:14 pm
Location: Indianapolis

Post by Montag » Mon Mar 10, 2008 10:25 am

Why can't we extend the shuttle's life by 5 years? The failure modes of the losses have been identified and are watched for. We need to keep it in service until the replacement is ready - even with the added cost.
words

User avatar
msduncan
Posts: 14299
Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2004 11:41 pm
Location: Birmingham, Alabama

Post by msduncan » Mon Mar 10, 2008 11:51 am

Montag wrote:Why can't we extend the shuttle's life by 5 years? The failure modes of the losses have been identified and are watched for. We need to keep it in service until the replacement is ready - even with the added cost.
The shuttle fleet is in worse shape than is commonly known.
It's 109 first team All-Americans.
It's a college football record 61 bowl appearances.
It's 34 bowl victories.
It's 24 Southeastern Conference Championships.
It's 15 National Championships.

At some places they play football. At Alabama we live it.

User avatar
The Preacher
Forum Moderator
Posts: 13034
Joined: Mon Nov 01, 2004 11:57 am

Post by The Preacher » Mon Mar 10, 2008 11:55 am

Ironrod wrote:
Sen. Bill Nelson, D-Fla., chairman of the subcommittee that oversees NASA and is elected by his NASA constituency, went further. "This is a very serious betrayal of American interests," he said later. "This will be the first time since Sputnik when the United States will not have a significant space superiority. I remain dumbfounded that we've allowed this serious threat to our national security to develop."
Indeed.
Mortoned.
You do not take from this universe. It grants you what it will.

User avatar
Kraken
Posts: 33958
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 11:59 pm
Location: The Hub of the Universe
Contact:
Kraken’s avatar
Online

Post by Kraken » Mon Mar 10, 2008 12:14 pm

JohnnyFive wrote:
RLMullen wrote:
JohnnyFive wrote:lots of bitching about WHERE science funding should go.
Have you ever thought about just how many scientific disciplines are required for manned space flight? The answer is ALL OF THEM! The best way to get funding increased for all of science would be to embark on both the mars landing and moon colonization projects. Physics will get us to the moon, but physics alone will never allow us to LIVE on the moon; we will require significant advances in biotech, environmental sciences, medicine, etc., etc., etc.

Maybe your personal pet project won't get all of the funding that you'd like, but investment in space exploration/colonization will clearly generate greater returns to the human race than any single other investment in science. At one point back in the 70's I read an article that listed the advances that came from the space program of the 60's.

For the "Obamas" in the crowd, the best way to spur interest in education would be to embark on a multi-generational epic colonization effort. Give the kids a reason to want to study science... something more than just "getting a good job so they can afford Guitar Hero".

Lastly, MY interest in science and eventual study of software engineering is a DIRECT result of watching men walk on the moon. I'm old enough to have seen it... we spent entire days in grade school watching coverage. Like Ironrod, I'm pissed that we abandoned space. When I was in 3rd grade, I was certain that I'd be living on the moon by now. At the time that idea wasn't just a child's fantasy; many highly educated adults shared the same fantasy.
Perhaps it's a generational thing -- I'm apparently much younger than you are, but while space may have been a major motivator for you, I have not really seen it as a giant motivator for me and most of the people that I know -- and I have science degrees, am working in a science field, etc. I fail to see how an investment in space will generate better returns than investment in other scientific disciplines. This is not clear to me, please clarify.
I don't know if it's explicable, because it's subjective. When I was an impressionable youngster, I wanted more than anything to be an astronaut, as did many of my peers. Science was cool. The whole country was space-crazy. A whole wave of businesses in the early to mid 60s with "moon" and "space" and "satellite" in their names. Ah good, here's an old photo that shows what I mean (edit) -- and this is from Albion, Michigan, not Florida's space coast:

Image

Point is, space travel and the optimistic future that it represented permeated our culture and shaped my generation. There has been nothing comparable since then. Can we recapture that? Maybe some of it. We live now in an age of pessimism and cynicism about the future. What's the value in creating hope?

I thought this Obama fellow was supposed to be all about that. Apparently he does not quite get it. Perhaps his mind can be changed.
The Preacher wrote:
Ironrod wrote:
Sen. Bill Nelson, D-Fla., chairman of the subcommittee that oversees NASA and is elected by his NASA constituency, went further. "This is a very serious betrayal of American interests," he said later. "This will be the first time since Sputnik when the United States will not have a significant space superiority. I remain dumbfounded that we've allowed this serious threat to our national security to develop."
Indeed.
Mortoned.
Does his political base negate what he said? We are going to be hitchhiking into orbit for at least five years. If Obama sends NASA back to the drawing board and takes away their budget, increase that to 10+ years...if they can come back at all.

If informed citizens don't think that's a problem, then we are in some very deep doodoo.

User avatar
The Preacher
Forum Moderator
Posts: 13034
Joined: Mon Nov 01, 2004 11:57 am

Post by The Preacher » Mon Mar 10, 2008 12:28 pm

Ironrod wrote:
The Preacher wrote:
Ironrod wrote:
Sen. Bill Nelson, D-Fla., chairman of the subcommittee that oversees NASA and is elected by his NASA constituency, went further. "This is a very serious betrayal of American interests," he said later. "This will be the first time since Sputnik when the United States will not have a significant space superiority. I remain dumbfounded that we've allowed this serious threat to our national security to develop."
Indeed.
Mortoned.
Does his political base negate what he said? We are going to be hitchhiking into orbit for at least five years. If Obama sends NASA back to the drawing board and takes away their budget, increase that to 10+ years...if they can come back at all.

If informed citizens don't think that's a problem, then we are in some very deep doodoo.
When Bob Dole talked about the need for ethanol, I took it with a salt lick. Likewise, I take a measured reaction when a Florida congressman calls this a "serious threat to our national security." Because we can't reach a largely useless space station we are now in grave danger? Really? Are we now blocked out of key amoeba in space experiments? All I hear is "OMFGNASA9/11!!"
You do not take from this universe. It grants you what it will.

Post Reply