Bye bye gitmo

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msduncan
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Re: Bye bye gitmo

Post by msduncan »

Mr. Sparkle wrote:
The Preacher wrote:There is a fundamental difference in actually believing that his policies help prevent terrorism (and thus the elimination of them will result in more terrorism) and praying for those acts to occur.
Indeed it is possible that he is a sincere idiot, but I read it as a reiteration of Limbaugh's "I hope Obama fails" to show the world how wrong they were to criticize Bush! As far as I'm concerned, he's welcome to hope for a terrorist attack to "vindicate" his boss... and whether or not he is simply a drone is immaterial... I only point it for the hypocrisy of wingnuts now being "We're all gonna die! Obama's going to get us all killed!" when a couple of months ago it was time to summon the firing squad if you called "enhanced interrogation" torture.

I read through the article. I also don't see where he is hoping for an attack to vidicate Bush. He is restating what a lot of the people that share my side of the ideological argument are saying: stated policy positions of the Obama admin are, in our opinion, not the way to effectively fight radical islam and thus puts us in a more vunerable position.

Quite frankly, we have never fought with kid gloves on until the modern era, and it's proving to not be so effective. Unless you consider carpet bombing of our enemies, using nuclear devices on their cities, or putting suspected enemy collaborators in war camps as being kid gloves. This notion of a noble American way to fight a war is a dangerous new invention of the couch potatoe internet generation (or perhaps bleedovers of the 1960's era hippie ideologies). We need to fight the war willing to win it, not fight it hoping not to break too much furniture in the process.

And if you think our European allies would be so careful if they were the main targets in this fight, you are kidding yourself. They have the luxury of being the moderating voice in this because they are the secondary targets at best.

These policies will make us more vunerable to terrorism. I fully expect, however, that the left will find a creative way to blame any future attack on us on the Bush administration, even though these radicals have been at war with us for decades before we were roused enough to acknowledge them.
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The Preacher
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Re: Bye bye gitmo

Post by The Preacher »

Mr. Sparkle wrote:
The Preacher wrote:There is a fundamental difference in actually believing that his policies help prevent terrorism (and thus the elimination of them will result in more terrorism) and praying for those acts to occur.
Indeed it is possible that he is a sincere idiot, but I read it as a reiteration of Limbaugh's "I hope Obama fails" to show the world how wrong they were to criticize Bush! As far as I'm concerned, he's welcome to hope for a terrorist attack to "vindicate" his boss... and whether or not he is simply a drone is immaterial... I only point it for the hypocrisy of wingnuts now being "We're all gonna die! Obama's going to get us all killed!" when a couple of months ago it was time to summon the firing squad if you called "enhanced interrogation" torture.
"Wingnuts." Heh.
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Re: Bye bye gitmo

Post by Mr. Sparkle »

msduncan wrote:These policies will make us more vunerable to terrorism.
If that's the case, then you and your fellow fans of glove removal should be urging a commission to investigate the efficacy of the Bush-Cheney interrogation methods. I mean, we're on the precipice here... our boy Thiessen just labeled Obama "the most dangerous man ever to occupy the Oval Office." So why just scare tactics from the side lines? Let's get some sworn testimony on how waterboarding saved the world, and have a sincere debate about the merits of these policies, if they are so vital to the lives American citizens.

As long as the people who support "enhanced interrogation" have no interest in actually discussing it, I'm going to assume they know it to be useless and are either a) covering their own asses from scrutiny or b) cynically hoping to use any American deaths during an Obama administration to score political points.
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Re: Bye bye gitmo

Post by Isgrimnur »

msduncan, the Euros have been victims of attacks.

2004 Madrid Train Bombings

2004 Australian Embassy Bombings

7 July 2005 London Bombings

21 July 2005 London Bombings

2007 London car bomb plot

2007 Glasgow Airport attack

The Euros have been dealing with terrorism for a lot longer than we have. It's only within the last decade that the U.S. has had to worry about its citizens unless they were on an overseas trip.
It's almost as if people are the problem.
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Re: Bye bye gitmo

Post by Pyperkub »

Call it a love-fest if you will, but the benefit to ending these policies may well outweigh the risks, which is something the likes of Thiessen can't even see.

The fight against Terrorism will never be won by torturing (martyring) people - tho it may win a battle or two, but in the long run Gitmo and it's ilk do more damage to our efforts.
Last edited by Pyperkub on Fri Jan 23, 2009 4:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Bye bye gitmo

Post by The Preacher »

Isgrimnur wrote:msduncan, the Euros have been victims of attacks.

2004 Madrid Train Bombings

2004 Australian Embassy Bombings

7 July 2005 London Bombings

21 July 2005 London Bombings

2007 London car bomb plot

2007 Glasgow Airport attack

The Euros have been dealing with terrorism for a lot longer than we have. It's only within the last decade that the U.S. has had to worry about its citizens unless they were on an overseas trip.
But you might not want to use countries like the UK as hallmarks of how to treat prisoners and defend civil liberties.
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Re: Bye bye gitmo

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God no. There's a reason our ancestors came here.
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Re: Bye bye gitmo

Post by Victoria Raverna »

Like what I wrote in response to msduncan link to that article. That is an example of what happens to one (single) prisoner that US released from Gitmo. It is misleading to use that as a reason not to close down Gitmo.
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Re: Bye bye gitmo

Post by cheeba »

Victoria Raverna wrote:Like what I wrote in response to msduncan link to that article. That is an example of what happens to one (single) prisoner that US released from Gitmo. It is misleading to use that as a reason not to close down Gitmo.
It's more than 1.
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Re: Bye bye gitmo

Post by Isgrimnur »

And how does that compare to the recidivism rate of any prison population?
It's almost as if people are the problem.
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Re: Bye bye gitmo

Post by Mr. Sparkle »

What's pretty cool is how Bush sending terrorists back to the battlefield is supposed to indicate how dangerous it is for Obama to change the policies.
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Re: Bye bye gitmo

Post by Rip »

msduncan wrote:
Mr. Sparkle wrote:
msduncan wrote:
Mr. Sparkle wrote:
tjg_marantz wrote:The sky is falling. The sky is falling.
If only it was paranoia... but, in fact, it's part of the new GOP strategy to pray for terrorist attack so they can regain power.
During the campaign, Obama pledged to dismantle many of these policies. He follows through on those pledges at America's peril -- and his own. If Obama weakens any of the defenses Bush put in place and terrorists strike our country again, Americans will hold Obama responsible -- and the Democratic Party could find itself unelectable for a generation.
Big giant rolley eyes here.

You folks roasted me when I suggested that Democrats were praying for failure in Iraq or something smiliar. Do you get a fucking pass when you suggest the same thing of Republicans? In this forum? Probably fucking so. Please continue your Obama orgy.
I didn't mean to imply that you were praying for a terrorist attack, but that fucknut I cited certainly is... and your boy Limbaugh is on record saying he hopes Obama fails.
Ok.. I accept that. There are nuts on both sides that hope for the worst if it helps them.

Back on the topic -- there is some evidence that these detainees will return to fight us. NY Times link
I am sure he was a kind and loving man until Gitmo turned him into a terrorist. :wink:
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Re: Bye bye gitmo

Post by msduncan »

Mr. Sparkle wrote:What's pretty cool is how Bush sending terrorists back to the battlefield is supposed to indicate how dangerous it is for Obama to change the policies.
What's pretty cool is that when we released a few of them back into the wild they went right back to attacking us. You want to release all the bastards.
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Re: Bye bye gitmo

Post by msduncan »

Victoria Raverna wrote:
Like what I wrote in response to msduncan link to that article. That is an example of what happens to one (single) prisoner that US released from Gitmo. It is misleading to use that as a reason not to close down Gitmo.
It was more than one. We didn't just willy nilly pick up random Afghanis and Iraqis to throw into Gitmo. These people are very very bad people. I know that since we are the United States, and these people are Muslim, you want to dismiss any and all assertions that they are somehow evil. I assure you that these prisoners were not your average muslim citizen just walking around in town.

Edit to add: And the ones that are left were the worst of the crop -- some of strategic importance to Al Queda. But hey -- they'll all have your lobbied chance at a second life now. And we'll all see them again in the next decade of attacks and bombings that cost America and western allies their lives.
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Re: Bye bye gitmo

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Mr. Sparkle wrote:What's pretty cool is how Bush sending terrorists back to the battlefield is supposed to indicate how dangerous it is for Obama to change the policies.
What's pretty sad is how you are so blinded by your partisanship that you can make a statement like that.

Please, tell me how those articles show that Bush sent "terrorists back to the battlefield"?
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Re: Bye bye gitmo

Post by Mr. Sparkle »

pr0ner wrote:
Mr. Sparkle wrote:What's pretty cool is how Bush sending terrorists back to the battlefield is supposed to indicate how dangerous it is for Obama to change the policies.
What's pretty sad is how you are so blinded by your partisanship that you can make a statement like that.

Please, tell me how those articles show that Bush sent "terrorists back to the battlefield"?
Who's was President again? Is the fact that Bush's policies failed Clinton's fault again? The fact that how ever many people returned to the battlefield is just yet more evidence of how incompetently the detention program was run. If they were interested in prosecution instead of getting their jollies from living out their Jack Bauer fantasies those people WOULD BE IN JAIL... just like numerous other terrorist housed domestically... instead of tortured to the point they'll never get convicted and we don't know WTF to do with them. Way to make us safe!
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Re: Bye bye gitmo

Post by msduncan »

"tortured to the point" ?

Wow. People these days don't really understand WTF torture is. I still think it's laughable to say that anything administered in Gitmo was anything close to torture. And if we are afraid to use the tactics they used in Gitmo....then we're going to lose this and any future conflict.
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Re: Bye bye gitmo

Post by pr0ner »

Mr. Sparkle wrote:
pr0ner wrote:
Mr. Sparkle wrote:What's pretty cool is how Bush sending terrorists back to the battlefield is supposed to indicate how dangerous it is for Obama to change the policies.
What's pretty sad is how you are so blinded by your partisanship that you can make a statement like that.

Please, tell me how those articles show that Bush sent "terrorists back to the battlefield"?
Who's was President again? Is the fact that Bush's policies failed Clinton's fault again? The fact that how ever many people returned to the battlefield is just yet more evidence of how incompetently the detention program was run. If they were interested in prosecution instead of getting their jollies from living out their Jack Bauer fantasies those people WOULD BE IN JAIL... just like numerous other terrorist housed domestically... instead of tortured to the point they'll never get convicted and we don't know WTF to do with them. Way to make us safe!
Releasing != sending back to the battlefield.

Please try again.
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Re: Bye bye gitmo

Post by Mr. Sparkle »

pr0ner wrote:
Mr. Sparkle wrote:
pr0ner wrote:
Mr. Sparkle wrote:What's pretty cool is how Bush sending terrorists back to the battlefield is supposed to indicate how dangerous it is for Obama to change the policies.
What's pretty sad is how you are so blinded by your partisanship that you can make a statement like that.

Please, tell me how those articles show that Bush sent "terrorists back to the battlefield"?
Who's was President again? Is the fact that Bush's policies failed Clinton's fault again? The fact that how ever many people returned to the battlefield is just yet more evidence of how incompetently the detention program was run. If they were interested in prosecution instead of getting their jollies from living out their Jack Bauer fantasies those people WOULD BE IN JAIL... just like numerous other terrorist housed domestically... instead of tortured to the point they'll never get convicted and we don't know WTF to do with them. Way to make us safe!
Releasing != sending back to the battlefield.

Please try again.
Pedant FTW? What's your point?
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Re: Bye bye gitmo

Post by gbasden »

msduncan wrote: We didn't just willy nilly pick up random Afghanis and Iraqis to throw into Gitmo.
In a lot of cases, yes we did.
In June 2006, U.S. Senator Arlen Specter stated that the arrests of most of the roughly 500 prisoners held there were based on "the flimsiest sort of hearsay"
According to the newspaper, army officers who were frustrated that their recommendations were being ignored decided to circulate a list of 49 Afghans and 10 Pakistani prisoners they wanted released or repatriated. The list included street vendors, taxi drivers, farmers and several men suffering severe mental health problems. While no names were provided, many of the men were kidnapped by bounty-hunting Pakistani soldiers near the Afghan border. One young detainee was captured in a border town where he had lived and worked for 20 years. He had no connection with the Al Qaeda or the Taliban.
Bounties ranged from $3,000 to $25,000, the detainees testified before military tribunals, according to transcripts the U.S. government gave The Associated Press to comply with a Freedom of Information lawsuit.

A former CIA intelligence officer who helped lead the search for Osama bin Laden told AP the accounts sounded legitimate because U.S. allies regularly got money to help catch Taliban and al-Qaida fighters. Gary Schroen said he took a suitcase of $3 million in cash into Afghanistan himself to help supply and win over warlords to fight for U.S. Special Forces.
msduncan wrote:These people are very very bad people. I know that since we are the United States, and these people are Muslim, you want to dismiss any and all assertions that they are somehow evil. I assure you that these prisoners were not your average muslim citizen just walking around in town.
To repeat -
In interviews, dozens of high-level military, intelligence and law-enforcement officials in the United States, Europe and the Middle East said that contrary to the repeated assertions of senior administration officials, none of the detainees at the United States Naval Base at Guantánamo Bay ranked as leaders or senior operatives of Al Qaeda. They said only a relative handful -- some put the number at about a dozen, others more than two dozen -- were sworn Qaeda members or other militants able to elucidate the organization's inner workings.
I know there are some very bad people in Guantanamo. Most of them we created with our own policies.
msduncan wrote:Wow. People these days don't really understand WTF torture is. I still think it's laughable to say that anything administered in Gitmo was anything close to torture. And if we are afraid to use the tactics they used in Gitmo....then we're going to lose this and any future conflict.
Really?
Mr. Baker, 37, a former member of the 438th Military Police Company, said he played the role of an uncooperative prisoner and was beaten so badly by four American soldiers that he suffered a traumatic brain injury and seizures. He said the soldiers only stopped beating him when they realized he might be American.
Your version of torture is a lot different than mine.
This was only a foretaste of the terror regime that awaited the three in Guantanamo. The allegations of mental and physical torture outlined in the dossier include:

* US forces subjecting inmates to repeated beatings, including punching and kicking. The trio states that such treatment was meted out even against mentally ill inmates. The dossier alleges that one prisoner was left with brain damage after soldiers beat him as punishment for attempting suicide.

* Inmates forcibly injected with drugs; shackled, hooded and forced to squat for hours or days; being kept naked in freezing air conditioning and deprived of sleep.

* Sexual humiliation including photographing prisoners naked and subjecting them to unwarranted and brutal anal searches. The dossier says that one inmate reported that he had been shown a video of hooded men—apparently detainees—being forced to sodomise one another.

* Psychological torture, including being held in isolation for weeks or months and threats to kill them. Iqbal says that at Guantanamo one US soldier told him, “You killed my family in the towers and now it’s time to get you back”.
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Re: Bye bye gitmo

Post by Stitch »

I'm kind of confused as to how some take the closing of Gitmo to be an open release of all prisoners, apparently in msduncan's backyard from the sound of his rhetoric.
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Re: Bye bye gitmo

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Mr. Sparkle wrote:The fact that how ever many people returned to the battlefield is just yet more evidence of how incompetently the detention program was run. If they were interested in prosecution instead of getting their jollies from living out their Jack Bauer fantasies those people WOULD BE IN JAIL...
Eh? You think that the Bush administration preferred releasing someone than prosecuting them if they could get a conviction?
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Re: Bye bye gitmo

Post by noxiousdog »

Stitch wrote:I'm kind of confused as to how some take the closing of Gitmo to be an open release of all prisoners, apparently in msduncan's backyard from the sound of his rhetoric.
Join the club. I'm confused how housing them in some as yet to be determined location is any better than housing them at Gitmo. Style over substance I guess.
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Re: Bye bye gitmo

Post by Defiant »

noxiousdog wrote:
Stitch wrote:I'm kind of confused as to how some take the closing of Gitmo to be an open release of all prisoners, apparently in msduncan's backyard from the sound of his rhetoric.
Join the club. I'm confused how housing them in some as yet to be determined location is any better than housing them at Gitmo. Style over substance I guess.
Ditto.
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Re: Bye bye gitmo

Post by Mr. Sparkle »

Nade wrote:
noxiousdog wrote:
Stitch wrote:I'm kind of confused as to how some take the closing of Gitmo to be an open release of all prisoners, apparently in msduncan's backyard from the sound of his rhetoric.
Join the club. I'm confused how housing them in some as yet to be determined location is any better than housing them at Gitmo. Style over substance I guess.
Ditto.
The Constitution and Geneva Conventions lack substance to you guys? To each their own, I guess.
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Re: Bye bye gitmo

Post by noxiousdog »

Mr. Sparkle wrote: The Constitution and Geneva Conventions lack substance to you guys? To each their own, I guess.
How is housing them in a maximum security US prison any different? That seems to be a bigger violation of the Geneva convention than appropriate facilites in Guantanamo Bay.

It's also a huge violation of the Constitution.
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Re: Bye bye gitmo

Post by pr0ner »

Mr. Sparkle wrote:
pr0ner wrote:
Mr. Sparkle wrote:
pr0ner wrote:
Mr. Sparkle wrote:What's pretty cool is how Bush sending terrorists back to the battlefield is supposed to indicate how dangerous it is for Obama to change the policies.
What's pretty sad is how you are so blinded by your partisanship that you can make a statement like that.

Please, tell me how those articles show that Bush sent "terrorists back to the battlefield"?
Who's was President again? Is the fact that Bush's policies failed Clinton's fault again? The fact that how ever many people returned to the battlefield is just yet more evidence of how incompetently the detention program was run. If they were interested in prosecution instead of getting their jollies from living out their Jack Bauer fantasies those people WOULD BE IN JAIL... just like numerous other terrorist housed domestically... instead of tortured to the point they'll never get convicted and we don't know WTF to do with them. Way to make us safe!
Releasing != sending back to the battlefield.

Please try again.
Pedant FTW? What's your point?
That your admitted uber partisanship clouds your judgment and makes you sensationalize things.
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Re: Bye bye gitmo

Post by GreenGoo »

pr0ner wrote:That your admitted uber partisanship clouds your judgment and makes you sensationalize things.
Is this like one of those pre-emptive "I know you are but what am I?" things?
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Re: Bye bye gitmo

Post by Victoria Raverna »

cheeba wrote:
Victoria Raverna wrote:Like what I wrote in response to msduncan link to that article. That is an example of what happens to one (single) prisoner that US released from Gitmo. It is misleading to use that as a reason not to close down Gitmo.
It's more than 1.
Ok so there were more than one. 5-7% of those released return to battlefield if you count those that return to fight Russia.

US should keep all Gitmo prisoners that lacked evidence to be tried permanently because the chance that 5-7% of the prisoners will return to battlefield? Now according to some statistic, about 7% of African Americans between 25-29 were in jail at 1994. So I guess if we follow this Gitmo rule, you have lock up all African Americans before they reach 25 because 7% of them will likely get into trouble later in their life.
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Re: Bye bye gitmo

Post by Victoria Raverna »

Isgrimnur wrote:And how does that compare to the recidivism rate of any prison population?
For some crime it can be as high as 70%. I can understand with 70% figure that there is a good reason to send them to Gitmo and lock them up permanently.;)

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/abstract/rpr94.htm" target="_blank
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Re: Bye bye gitmo

Post by cheeba »

gbasden wrote:I know there are some very bad people in Guantanamo. Most of them we created with our own policies.
I'm sorry, but no. Bad policies do not create bad people. They make their own damn choices.
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Re: Bye bye gitmo

Post by Smoove_B »

cheeba wrote:I'm sorry, but no. Bad policies do not create bad people. They make their own damn choices.
Gitmo's World disagrees.
Maybe next year, maybe no go
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Re: Bye bye gitmo

Post by gbasden »

cheeba wrote:
gbasden wrote:I know there are some very bad people in Guantanamo. Most of them we created with our own policies.
I'm sorry, but no. Bad policies do not create bad people. They make their own damn choices.
Really? If you got snatched off the street, sold for a bounty, thrown in a cell, (allegedly) tortured, put in solitary, and held incommunicado for multiple years you wouldn't hold ill will against the people that did it to you?

I find that hard to believe.
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Re: Bye bye gitmo

Post by cheeba »

gbasden wrote:Really? If you got snatched off the street, sold for a bounty, thrown in a cell, (allegedly) tortured, put in solitary, and held incommunicado for multiple years you wouldn't hold ill will against the people that did it to you?
Against the people that did it to me? Sure. Would I become a common terrorist who thinks it's perfectly fine to kill innocent people, including women and children? Nope.
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Re: Bye bye gitmo

Post by Mr. Sparkle »

noxiousdog wrote:
Mr. Sparkle wrote: The Constitution and Geneva Conventions lack substance to you guys? To each their own, I guess.
How is housing them in a maximum security US prison any different? That seems to be a bigger violation of the Geneva convention than appropriate facilites in Guantanamo Bay.

It's also a huge violation of the Constitution.
It's not actually. We can keep them "for the duration of the conflict"(i.e. forever) and fulfill our treaty obligations as long as we give them some modicum of due process. Is it really too much to ask that we have some evidence that a guy is a terrorist before we lock them up and throw away the key?
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Re: Bye bye gitmo

Post by The Preacher »

Mr. Sparkle wrote:
noxiousdog wrote:
Mr. Sparkle wrote: The Constitution and Geneva Conventions lack substance to you guys? To each their own, I guess.
How is housing them in a maximum security US prison any different? That seems to be a bigger violation of the Geneva convention than appropriate facilites in Guantanamo Bay.

It's also a huge violation of the Constitution.
It's not actually. We can keep them "for the duration of the conflict"(i.e. forever) and fulfill our treaty obligations as long as we give them some modicum of due process. Is it really too much to ask that we have some evidence that a guy is a terrorist before we lock them up and throw away the key?
I thought we were using military tribunals for this.
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Mr. Sparkle
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Re: Bye bye gitmo

Post by Mr. Sparkle »

The Preacher wrote:
Mr. Sparkle wrote:
noxiousdog wrote:
Mr. Sparkle wrote: The Constitution and Geneva Conventions lack substance to you guys? To each their own, I guess.
How is housing them in a maximum security US prison any different? That seems to be a bigger violation of the Geneva convention than appropriate facilites in Guantanamo Bay.

It's also a huge violation of the Constitution.
It's not actually. We can keep them "for the duration of the conflict"(i.e. forever) and fulfill our treaty obligations as long as we give them some modicum of due process. Is it really too much to ask that we have some evidence that a guy is a terrorist before we lock them up and throw away the key?
I thought we were using military tribunals for this.
I'm no expert, but I think there was some writ that involved Habeas's copses... according to the Supremes, those tribunals look a lot like kangaroo courts.
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noxiousdog
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Re: Bye bye gitmo

Post by noxiousdog »

Mr. Sparkle wrote: It's not actually. We can keep them "for the duration of the conflict"(i.e. forever) and fulfill our treaty obligations as long as we give them some modicum of due process. Is it really too much to ask that we have some evidence that a guy is a terrorist before we lock them up and throw away the key?
Third Geneva Convention wrote: Chapter II

QUARTERS, FOOD AND CLOTHING OF PRISONERS OF WAR

Article 25

Prisoners of war shall be quartered under conditions as favourable as those for the forces of the Detaining Power who are billeted in the same area. The said conditions shall make allowance for the habits and customs of the prisoners and shall in no case be prejudicial to their health.
I don't think a maximum security prison is "conditions as favourable as those for the forces of the Detaining Power who are billeted in the same area."
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Combustible Lemur
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Re: Bye bye gitmo

Post by Combustible Lemur »

cheeba wrote:
gbasden wrote:Really? If you got snatched off the street, sold for a bounty, thrown in a cell, (allegedly) tortured, put in solitary, and held incommunicado for multiple years you wouldn't hold ill will against the people that did it to you?
Against the people that did it to me? Sure. Would I become a common terrorist who thinks it's perfectly fine to kill innocent people, including women and children? Nope.

That strikes me as an incredibly simple and naive statement. Most of the people who are terrorists did not wake up and say lets blow up Babies!

Maybe you're a soldier trained in interrogation and torture resistance. Or maybe you're not. I know I'm not, but as such there is no way I would make blanket statements about my state of mind after years of unjust imprisonment and torture.

Do I think I'd turn into a cold blooded murderer, I hope not, but maybe a hot blooded revolutionary.

Just look at vietnam and ww2 to see what average people in awful circumstances can do.
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Re: Bye bye gitmo

Post by cheeba »

Combustible Lemur wrote:Maybe you're a soldier trained in interrogation and torture resistance. Or maybe you're not. I know I'm not, but as such there is no way I would make blanket statements about my state of mind after years of unjust imprisonment and torture.
If you look at unjustly imprisoned people in the US who have been freed, you will see that they do not all of a sudden want to kill innocent people. Or maybe they do want to but don't act on it.

I'm certainly not an expert, but it would seem to me that culture is the leading creator of terrorists, not false imprisonment.
Combustible Lemur wrote:Just look at vietnam and ww2 to see what average people in awful circumstances can do.
False imprisonment != war.
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