Do taxpayers *always* have to pay for stadiums now?

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Re: Do taxpayers *always* have to pay for stadiums now?

Post by Jeff V »

FWIW, there is no US market larger than San Diego that doesn't already have a team. The next largest market without a team is...St. Louis.
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Re: Do taxpayers *always* have to pay for stadiums now?

Post by Isgrimnur »

Portland and Orlando are the next two. Another FL team might be a hard sell.
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Re: Do taxpayers *always* have to pay for stadiums now?

Post by El Guapo »

Isgrimnur wrote:Portland and Orlando are the next two. Another FL team might be a hard sell.
Could we move them to Portland, rename them the SuperSonics, and solve that problem while we're at it?
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Re: Do taxpayers *always* have to pay for stadiums now?

Post by ImLawBoy »

Isgrimnur wrote:Pretty much. Went to a game this year, and it's an excellent venue. Even better than when I compared it favorably to the Great American Ballpark in Cincinnati.
To be fair, I've been to playground ballparks that compare favorably to the Great American Ballpark.
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Re: Do taxpayers *always* have to pay for stadiums now?

Post by Isgrimnur »

Good to know my reaction wasn't attributable to an unreasonable bias. :)
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Re: Do taxpayers *always* have to pay for stadiums now?

Post by Jaymann »

Jeff V wrote:FWIW, there is no US market larger than San Diego that doesn't already have a team.
It would be sweet if the Chargers moved to LA and the Raiders moved to San Diego.
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Re: Do taxpayers *always* have to pay for stadiums now?

Post by Fitzy »

Jaymann wrote:
Jeff V wrote:FWIW, there is no US market larger than San Diego that doesn't already have a team.
It would be sweet if the Chargers moved to LA and the Raiders moved to San Diego.
And then the Raiders could change their name to the Chargers and the Chargers could change their name to the Raiders!
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Re: Do taxpayers *always* have to pay for stadiums now?

Post by Moliere »

Fitzy wrote:
Jaymann wrote:
Jeff V wrote:FWIW, there is no US market larger than San Diego that doesn't already have a team.
It would be sweet if the Chargers moved to LA and the Raiders moved to San Diego.
And then the Raiders could change their name to the Chargers and the Chargers could change their name to the Raiders!
When the Browns moved to Baltimore and then another Browns team was created in Cleveland which team owns the historical franchise records?
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Re: Do taxpayers *always* have to pay for stadiums now?

Post by Isgrimnur »

Cleveland
Subsequent legal actions by the city of Cleveland and Browns season ticket holders led to a compromise that saw the Browns history, records, and intellectual property remain in Cleveland, while Modell was permitted to move to Baltimore and establish the Baltimore Ravens, who are officially regarded as a 1996 expansion team.
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Re: Do taxpayers *always* have to pay for stadiums now?

Post by Moliere »

Isgrimnur wrote:Cleveland
Subsequent legal actions by the city of Cleveland and Browns season ticket holders led to a compromise that saw the Browns history, records, and intellectual property remain in Cleveland, while Modell was permitted to move to Baltimore and establish the Baltimore Ravens, who are officially regarded as a 1996 expansion team.
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Re: Do taxpayers *always* have to pay for stadiums now?

Post by Moliere »

Outline emerges of Oakland stadium deal to keep Raiders
With the clock ticking, Oakland Mayor Libby Schaaf is betting big that a combination of $600 million in private money from Ronnie Lott’s investment group, $200 million in public money and an equal amount from the National Football League will be enough to keep the stadium-hungry Raiders from moving to Las Vegas.
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Re: Do taxpayers *always* have to pay for stadiums now?

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Arizona’s Terrible Hockey Team Wants a Third Taxpayer Funded Stadium Since 1996
A bill that would have committed $225 million in public funds—part coming from state coffers and part from the city of Tempe—does not appear to have enough votes to pass the state legislature, but lawmakers could still resurrect the stadium deal as part of the budget plan. The Arizona Republic reported this week that Senate President Steve Yarbrough (R-Chandler) says it's "unlikely" the legislature would approve the stadium in the budget bill, but, frankly, that's not good enough, because the whole idea should be rejected out of hand. There is no good argument for building the Coyotes another new stadium after they've failed to attract much interest from fans in Phoenix or Glendale, where they've played since 2003.
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Re: Do taxpayers *always* have to pay for stadiums now?

Post by Enough »

Reason has a good rundown up on how the new Atlanta Braves stadium is a disaster for taxpayers and fans alike.
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Re: Do taxpayers *always* have to pay for stadiums now?

Post by Scuzz »

No city, county etc should build a stadium for any professional sporting team unless that team is willing to pay for, or come up with the financing for, at least half the building.

If ever there is an example of economists dreaming up fake stats it is probably those surrounding how much a pro team "brings into the community".
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Re: Do taxpayers *always* have to pay for stadiums now?

Post by stessier »

Im sorry, but half is still a joke. They pay for it all and if there is infrastructure that needs upgrading, then a government can get involved.
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Re: Do taxpayers *always* have to pay for stadiums now?

Post by Scuzz »

stessier wrote:Im sorry, but half is still a joke. They pay for it all and if there is infrastructure that needs upgrading, then a government can get involved.
Well, I would assume 5% is probably infrastructure to start with when it comes to a modern stadium. Also, if the municipality has some control of the stadium it can be used for other things.

But yea, stadiums are a huge loss leader for any city.
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Re: Do taxpayers *always* have to pay for stadiums now?

Post by em2nought »

Not being any kind of sports fan whatsoever, taxpayers funding stadiums is really a pet peeve with me. :evil:

...and if they do build them in Florida they should also at the very least be built as hurricane shelters and not just torn down every twenty years.
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Re: Do taxpayers *always* have to pay for stadiums now?

Post by Jeff V »

Moliere wrote:Arizona’s Terrible Hockey Team Wants a Third Taxpayer Funded Stadium Since 1996
A bill that would have committed $225 million in public funds—part coming from state coffers and part from the city of Tempe—does not appear to have enough votes to pass the state legislature, but lawmakers could still resurrect the stadium deal as part of the budget plan. The Arizona Republic reported this week that Senate President Steve Yarbrough (R-Chandler) says it's "unlikely" the legislature would approve the stadium in the budget bill, but, frankly, that's not good enough, because the whole idea should be rejected out of hand. There is no good argument for building the Coyotes another new stadium after they've failed to attract much interest from fans in Phoenix or Glendale, where they've played since 2003.
They need to go back to the sport's roots and play outside. That's a popular thing now, right?

I went to a Coyotes game in Glendale once. My cousin lives there and coaches youth hockey teams, some have one state championships it seems. The stadium was mostly empty (but we couldn't get tickets a few days earlier when the Blackhawks were in town) and I swear my cousin knew every person in the stands -- many of them were family with kids who had played for him.
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Re: Do taxpayers *always* have to pay for stadiums now?

Post by Grifman »

Jeff V wrote:They need to go back to the sport's roots and play outside. That's a popular thing now, right?
Outside hockey in Arizona?
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Re: Do taxpayers *always* have to pay for stadiums now?

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Grifman wrote:
Jeff V wrote:They need to go back to the sport's roots and play outside. That's a popular thing now, right?
Outside hockey in Arizona?
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Re: Do taxpayers *always* have to pay for stadiums now?

Post by Jeff V »

I still don't get the above-and-beyond effort to keep hockey in the desert. I'm sure there is someone of power behind it; someone who is willing to spend whatever it takes of OPM to keep a team there.

They cite popularity with snowbirds, but from what I understand, they only come out in droves for two teams, the Blackhawks and the Flyers. The popularity of visiting teams shouldn't be a problem, however...there should be some affinity between the community and the home team and in Arizona there seems to be none. Relocating to another part of town isn't going to fix this root cause.
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Re: Do taxpayers *always* have to pay for stadiums now?

Post by Isgrimnur »

Vegas is going to demonstrate whether it's the desert or the team.
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Re: Do taxpayers *always* have to pay for stadiums now?

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stessier wrote:Im sorry, but half is still a joke. They pay for it all and if there is infrastructure that needs upgrading, then a government can get involved.
There's a lot of gray area in there. Local sports teams have a significant entertainment and pride value for a locale. We can argue about the relative value of sports, museums, parks, or any other civic entertainment, but the fact remains that a large portion of the populace cares about sports.

I think it's too much as well, but there's certainly room for compromise.
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Re: Do taxpayers *always* have to pay for stadiums now?

Post by Moliere »

noxiousdog wrote:
stessier wrote:Im sorry, but half is still a joke. They pay for it all and if there is infrastructure that needs upgrading, then a government can get involved.
There's a lot of gray area in there. Local sports teams have a significant entertainment and pride value for a locale. We can argue about the relative value of sports, museums, parks, or any other civic entertainment, but the fact remains that a large portion of the populace cares about sports.

I think it's too much as well, but there's certainly room for compromise.
Because a few thousand people care whether a particular team wins their game the rest of us need to have hundreds of millions of dollars in tax revenue pissed away? We're talking about tax subsidies for Billionaires to own a team full of Millionaires to play a game.
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Re: Do taxpayers *always* have to pay for stadiums now?

Post by Remus West »

Moliere wrote:
noxiousdog wrote:
stessier wrote:Im sorry, but half is still a joke. They pay for it all and if there is infrastructure that needs upgrading, then a government can get involved.
There's a lot of gray area in there. Local sports teams have a significant entertainment and pride value for a locale. We can argue about the relative value of sports, museums, parks, or any other civic entertainment, but the fact remains that a large portion of the populace cares about sports.

I think it's too much as well, but there's certainly room for compromise.
Because a few thousand people care whether a particular team wins their game the rest of us need to have hundreds of millions of dollars in tax revenue pissed away? We're talking about tax subsidies for Billionaires to own a team full of Millionaires to play a game.
There is also a huge economic impact on businesses in the community to consider. That is really what drives these things. The threat by the teams to take their economic booms elsewhere.
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Re: Do taxpayers *always* have to pay for stadiums now?

Post by Moliere »

Remus West wrote:There is also a huge economic impact on businesses in the community to consider. That is really what drives these things. The threat by the teams to take their economic booms elsewhere.
Have you not read all the previous articles? There is no economic boom. Pro teams are a net negative economic impact.
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Re: Do taxpayers *always* have to pay for stadiums now?

Post by Remus West »

Moliere wrote:
Remus West wrote:There is also a huge economic impact on businesses in the community to consider. That is really what drives these things. The threat by the teams to take their economic booms elsewhere.
Have you not read all the previous articles? There is no economic boom. Pro teams are a net negative economic impact.
A little sarcasm. Having the teams around does present the possibility for improvement in the areas of the stadiums though and losing them certainly creates blight - look at Tiger stadium, the team didn't even leave the city, or the Silverdome - ugh.
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Re: Do taxpayers *always* have to pay for stadiums now?

Post by noxiousdog »

Moliere wrote:
noxiousdog wrote:
stessier wrote:Im sorry, but half is still a joke. They pay for it all and if there is infrastructure that needs upgrading, then a government can get involved.
There's a lot of gray area in there. Local sports teams have a significant entertainment and pride value for a locale. We can argue about the relative value of sports, museums, parks, or any other civic entertainment, but the fact remains that a large portion of the populace cares about sports.

I think it's too much as well, but there's certainly room for compromise.
Because a few thousand people care whether a particular team wins their game the rest of us need to have hundreds of millions of dollars in tax revenue pissed away? We're talking about tax subsidies for Billionaires to own a team full of Millionaires to play a game.
Not a few thousand. A few hundred thousand if not millions. The annual attendance at a pro baseball stadium is approximately 2 million. That doesn't count the number of people who follow casually including watching on TV or listening to broadcasts. Football television broadcasts for the Texans last year was over 900,000 per week. Over free TV. The Houston Museum of Natural Science averages 2 million visitors per year. The Houston Zoo is 2.5 million per year.
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Re: Do taxpayers *always* have to pay for stadiums now?

Post by Moliere »

noxiousdog wrote:Not a few thousand. A few hundred thousand if not millions. The annual attendance at a pro baseball stadium is approximately 2 million. That doesn't count the number of people who follow casually including watching on TV or listening to broadcasts. Football television broadcasts for the Texans last year was over 900,000 per week. Over free TV. The Houston Museum of Natural Science averages 2 million visitors per year. The Houston Zoo is 2.5 million per year.
I don't want my tax money subsidizing Billionaires so they can own a team full of Millionaires to play a game. If they can't find enough revenue via tickets, advertising, merchandise, and TV broadcasting then they shouldn't be in business.
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Re: Do taxpayers *always* have to pay for stadiums now?

Post by noxiousdog »

Moliere wrote:
noxiousdog wrote:Not a few thousand. A few hundred thousand if not millions. The annual attendance at a pro baseball stadium is approximately 2 million. That doesn't count the number of people who follow casually including watching on TV or listening to broadcasts. Football television broadcasts for the Texans last year was over 900,000 per week. Over free TV. The Houston Museum of Natural Science averages 2 million visitors per year. The Houston Zoo is 2.5 million per year.
I don't want my tax money subsidizing Billionaires so they can own a team full of Millionaires to play a game. If they can't find enough revenue via tickets, advertising, merchandise, and TV broadcasting then they shouldn't be in business.
That's fine, but it's not how democracy works. There's all kinds of things that I don't care about but I have to fund anyway.

You get a vote like everyone else (assuming it's in your neck of the woods).
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Re: Do taxpayers *always* have to pay for stadiums now?

Post by LordMortis »

Remus West wrote:A little sarcasm. Having the teams around does present the possibility for improvement in the areas of the stadiums though and losing them certainly creates blight - look at Tiger stadium, the team didn't even leave the city, or the Silverdome - ugh.
Cork town has been "gentrified" like you would not believe over the last decade. That area is way more upscale and wealthy than it ever when Tiger Stadium was around in my lifetime.

Of course correlation is not causation.

I do think that Illitch was a great man for the city of Detroit and the that Ford family has sunk crazy amounts of money in to the city for the good of the city but I do not think CoPa or Ford Field have done a damned thing to improve the area. I don't think Little Ceasar's Arena will either. They are more the cost of doing business with families that have been great philanthropists. I wouldn't give a damned thing to Gores, Devos, or Gilbert and raise an eyebrow before helping the Karmonos'.
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Re: Do taxpayers *always* have to pay for stadiums now?

Post by hitbyambulance »

noxiousdog wrote:
You get a vote like everyone else (assuming it's in your neck of the woods).

assuming the stadium referendum actually goes to a vote...

my experience with these is they tend not to.
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Re: Do taxpayers *always* have to pay for stadiums now?

Post by noxiousdog »

hitbyambulance wrote:
noxiousdog wrote:
You get a vote like everyone else (assuming it's in your neck of the woods).

assuming the stadium referendum actually goes to a vote...

my experience with these is they tend not to.
I'm pretty sure the standard is for a referendum. Regardless, that's still how a representative democracy works :P

And, for the record, I would vote no but I still understand why people feel differently.
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Re: Do taxpayers *always* have to pay for stadiums now?

Post by Moliere »

Detroit City Council approves $34.5 million in bonds for Detroit Pistons to move into new arena
The Detroit Pistons are one step closer to playing downtown again.

Despite backlash from some residents, Detroit city council has approved $34.5 million in bonds so the Pistons can move into the Little Caesars Arena downtown.

Some Detroiters are unhappy with the deal because the bonds are taxpayer funded with money originally intended for schools and parks.
Millionaire athletes > school children
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Re: Do taxpayers *always* have to pay for stadiums now?

Post by gbasden »

Moliere wrote:Detroit City Council approves $34.5 million in bonds for Detroit Pistons to move into new arena
The Detroit Pistons are one step closer to playing downtown again.

Despite backlash from some residents, Detroit city council has approved $34.5 million in bonds so the Pistons can move into the Little Caesars Arena downtown.

Some Detroiters are unhappy with the deal because the bonds are taxpayer funded with money originally intended for schools and parks.
Millionaire athletes > school children
This is just one of the reasons I hate sports. :x
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Re: Do taxpayers *always* have to pay for stadiums now?

Post by em2nought »

gbasden wrote:
This is just one of the reasons I hate sports. :x
Apparently, we can agree on something. :wink:
Technically, he shouldn't be here.
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Re: Do taxpayers *always* have to pay for stadiums now?

Post by gbasden »

em2nought wrote:
gbasden wrote:
This is just one of the reasons I hate sports. :x
Apparently, we can agree on something. :wink:
I knew you weren't *all* bad... :)
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Re: Do taxpayers *always* have to pay for stadiums now?

Post by Enough »

Good thing Kevyn Orr didn't have to approve this. :ninja:
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Re: Do taxpayers *always* have to pay for stadiums now?

Post by hitbyambulance »

something Moliere will love Seattle for!

http://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-new ... m-swindle/
After two decades of warring over the fundamental question of whether government should help finance pro-sports enterprises, Seattle now finds itself in the polar-opposite position: The billionaires are fighting to do business with us.

We have one billionaire group offering to rebuild the old Key­Arena for $600 million of its own money, including $40 million in transportation fixes. We have another billionaire group offering a privately financed $600 million Sodo arena, plus the sweetener of a $90 million conversion of KeyArena into two music theaters.

Both proposals involve some public subsidy in the form of foregone taxes. But there are no bonds, no borrowing, no 30 years of taxes to pay it all back.

It’s such a remarkable turnabout that Seattle is now seen as a national model for how to beat the pro-sports vampires at their own game, says Neil deMause, author of the book “Field of Schemes: How the Great Stadium Swindle Turns Public Money into Private Profit.”

“What did Seattle do, and how can my city get some of that backbone?” daMause, of New York, wrote in a recent article at Deadspin. It was titled: “Want to Avoid Getting Screwed on Arena Deals? Look to Seattle.”
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Re: Do taxpayers *always* have to pay for stadiums now?

Post by Moliere »

Seattle does something right!
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