Arizona goes for two

[Remus West]

Right after signing the immigration bill Arizona follows up with this gem:
"The measure signed Tuesday prohibits classes that advocate ethnic solidarity, that are designed primarily for students of a particular race or that promote resentment toward a certain ethnic group."

[cheeba]

And that's a bad thing?

[silverjon]

And that's a bad thing?

Promoting resentment is bad across the board (I think?), but the other types of group described would depend on the implementation. Check out the actual classes that are being disallowed.

[LawBeefaroni]

Remus, you dare to question me?

[cheeba]

Promoting resentment is bad across the board (I think?), but the other types of group described would depend on the implementation. Check out the actual classes that are being disallowed.

It's not a very thorough article. It gives an example of some of the classes that could be affected but does not state that they'd be disallowed. In fact, it would seem they'd be allowed, considering the line, "The measure doesn't prohibit classes that teach about the history of a particular ethnic group, as long as the course is open to all students and doesn't promote ethnic solidarity or resentment."

I suspect the bigger problem lies in the educator's statement: "Sean Arce, director of the district's Mexican-American Studies program, said last month that students perform better in school if they see in the curriculum people who look like them."

[LawBeefaroni]

as long as the course is open to all students and doesn't promote ethnic solidarity or resentment

That's a pretty broad and ambiguous classification.

[cheeba]

as long as the course is open to all students and doesn't promote ethnic solidarity or resentment

That's a pretty broad and ambiguous classification.

They'll know it when they see it.

[silverjon]

I suspect the bigger problem lies in the educator's statement: "Sean Arce, director of the district's Mexican-American Studies program, said last month that students perform better in school if they see in the curriculum people who look like them."

Only people who look like them? Or just that they're not alone? The above is phrased poorly, but there's a non-horrifying interpretation of it.

I think it is difficult for any student to be the only "X" in the class/school, though the solution is more integration and education (people who look different are still like us on the inside, etc.), not segregation.

[Remus West]

The section that caught my attention was when it said the bill was "targetting" a program in Tuscon schools. The program was aimed at improving the outcome for Mexican-American students. On the heels of the immigration law it just seems to be providing more fuel for the fire to target such a program to make it illegal. Seems to say "not only do we not want you here but if you do get here we want you to remain stupid."

[LordMortis]

I can't speak for legal abuses and their potential for ugliness or the (lack of) wisdom in the wording but I do know there is precedent for concern...

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=73574" target="_blank

[Holman]

How is this enforced? Presumably the state does not plan to establish a review board for every syllabus before it is taught. I guess the law will instead function as a backstop for any parent who doesn't like something on the curriculum and wants to sue the school.

I look forward to the ban on Jane Austen for promoting resentment towards boring frumps and rakish cads. Who will speak for the cads??

[hepcat]

I for one welcome my Hispanic overlords and look forward to many years of servitude should all those of latin descent take a college level course that unites them against WASPS.

[Enough]

Oh joy, another politically correct movement is dawning.

[tjg_marantz]

I for one welcome my Hispanic overlords and look forward to many years of servitude should all those of latin descent take a college level course that unites them against WASPS.

Don't you mean, Yo quiero Taco Bell!

(and yes, I know this is offensive)

[Remus West]

I for one welcome my Hispanic overlords and look forward to many years of servitude should all those of latin descent take a college level course that unites them against WASPS.

Don't you mean, Yo quiero Taco Bell!

(and yes, I know this is offensive)

That only becomes offensive if I have to be around AFTER you get the Taco Bell.

[Scuzz]

You know what, I don't have a problem dropping these type of classes. With the budget problems schools are having and the crappy test scores kids are getting I would welcome the schools spending more time on the basic 3 R's.....

And since when was it a schools job to teach social and racial history to it's students? These should be a chapter in a history class but not whole programs with seperate faculty.

[LawBeefaroni]

You know what, I don't have a problem dropping these type of classes. With the budget problems schools are having and the crappy test scores kids are getting I would welcome the schools spending more time on the basic 3 R's.....

The very fact that we call them the "3 Rs" is an indication of how much we really care about them. I think the problem is engagement. I'm not saying that homogeneity is the path to engagement, but just throwing the basics at kids isn't going to work.

And since when was it a schools job to teach social and racial history to it's students? These should be a chapter in a history class but not whole programs with seperate faculty.

Since Western European History has been a standard subject at pretty much all grade levels?

[Holman]

You know what, I don't have a problem dropping these type of classes. With the budget problems schools are having and the crappy test scores kids are getting I would welcome the schools spending more time on the basic 3 R's.....

I have my own problems with ethnic studies, but...

Schools spend a TON of time on the three R's. The kids who have trouble with the basics aren't failing for lack of time spent. They have other issues, and these won't be solved just by outlawing certain specialized courses.

And, anyway, what does the law *do* to improve education other than cut these course offerings? More funding? Better facilities? More teachers? What?

And since when was it a schools job to teach social and racial history to it's students? These should be a chapter in a history class but not whole programs with seperate faculty.

Do you mean at the college level? Specialization is how academia works. At the high school level, I've never heard of a separate program in ethnic studies--such courses are always history or social studies electives, taught by people who are already doing more mainstream courses with the rest of their day.

Again, I'm not a fan of many aspects of ethnic studies. This law, however, is little more than a slap at teachers and professors and other "elite" targets of the Tea Party crowd that the GOP is presently desperate to service.

[Scuzz]

But what of the budget realities. Here in California the UC's and CSU's are turning kids away and the junior colleges are full to overflowing because the schools can't even support the basic courses for the kids they have.

Also, what does one do with a degree in (Black, Latino studies etc) except teach. I have no real arguement against them under normal conditions but when it comes to cutting basic ed classes or the "ethnic" studies classes I would vote to dump the latter.


And I would argue that the R's aren't really being taught as well as possible. My HS age daughter is taking math classes that are way beyond anything I was expected to know.

[Holman]

But what of the budget realities. Here in California the UC's and CSU's are turning kids away and the junior colleges are full to overflowing because the schools can't even support the basic courses for the kids they have.

I don't see what this has to do with the Arizona law. Are the top schools turning kids away because... what, the classrooms are full of ethnic studies courses when they should be used to teach more mainstream history? I don't think it works that way.

I imagine that the offending courses make up about 0.1% of the curriculum, or less. Cutting them isn't about saving the school's resources. It's a symbolic gesture striking back at imagined un-American activities.

And I would argue that the R's aren't really being taught as well as possible. My HS age daughter is taking math classes that are way beyond anything I was expected to know.

This is bad?

[WarPig]

I really should move.

[Scuzz]

I imagine that the offending courses make up about 0.1% of the curriculum, or less. Cutting them isn't about saving the school's resources. It's a symbolic gesture striking back at imagined un-American activities.

You are probably correct regards the curriculum percentage and that maybe the cost savings would be minimal.

However, I wonder how much educating goes on in the ethnic studies classes compared to how much proseletyzing and attempted indoctrination goes on there. Does it really help to "homogenize" the country, to bring the various ethnic groups together? I think one of the things "segregating" today's America is that while whites are condemned for anything that glorifies the white race (okay...I don't know what that would be..not Columbus Day or St. Patricks Day) and whites are treated to a PC agenda the various ethnic groups are encouraged to celebrate their diversity, to rejoice at their heritage and to relish their differences.

Is this all just a social affirmative action program?

[Holman]

I imagine that the offending courses make up about 0.1% of the curriculum, or less. Cutting them isn't about saving the school's resources. It's a symbolic gesture striking back at imagined un-American activities.

You are probably correct regards the curriculum percentage and that maybe the cost savings would be minimal.

However, I wonder how much educating goes on in the ethnic studies classes compared to how much proseletyzing and attempted indoctrination goes on there. Does it really help to "homogenize" the country, to bring the various ethnic groups together? I think one of the things "segregating" today's America is that while whites are condemned for anything that glorifies the white race (okay...I don't know what that would be..not Columbus Day or St. Patricks Day) and whites are treated to a PC agenda the various ethnic groups are encouraged to celebrate their diversity, to rejoice at their heritage and to relish their differences.

Is this all just a social affirmative action program?

I'm sure some of it is as bad as you fear (but it's still not the madrassa feared by the AZ legislature). But most of what goes on under the name of ethnic studies is simply specialized history or literature under a labeled umbrella so that it *won't* take the place of more mainstream studies.

Consider something like the study of slave culture in North America. It's an incredibly rich field, worthy of serious attention, with a lot to say about economics, race, religion, social organization etc.. It's an important academic project, and ignoring it would be stupid. However, if the mainstream history curriculum were given over to a focus on slave culture then some people would be howling about how it has crowded out "real" history. The existence of a specialist course solves these problems.

I'm sure there's a good deal of bullshit in some ethnic studies courses, but--speaking as a veteran of both high academia and high school teaching--I've never actually seen a course that was any kind of training for revolution or some kind of Black Panther indoctrination session. It probably happens (and probably happened more in the 1980s, when the current crop of conservative legislators were in school), but that kind of thing doesn't really get academic respectability.

Plus, there's something to be said for teaching specialized courses as a gateway into broader intellectual inquiry. Why is a student interested in (say) the native cultures of the Americas or the experience of immigrant subcultures somehow worse than a student not interested in anything at all? (And I wonder how many of the legislators and activists behind the law have ever even seen any of the curriculum content they're attacking.)

I hope that this law is just a throwaway gesture aimed at the cultural elites. If a large number of people really do believe that any teaching of minority issues is inherently dangerous, then paranoia on the Right is farther along than we think.

[noxiousdog]

Since Western European History has been a standard subject at pretty much all grade levels?

It most certainly is not. We had one year of 'world history' and it was sort of centered around Western Europe, but only as an emphasis of where American government and culture has it's roots.

[Apollo]

I'm sorry, but I'm not keen on state legislatures dictating what sort of things Universities can or can not teach. Period.

IMHO, this is merely racist pandering disguised as some sort of legitimate concern.

I'm starting to think that every state that starts with the letter "A" is run by idiots...

[helot2000]

It never hurts to drill down to the facts.

State schools chief Tom Horne, who has pushed the measure for years, said a Tucson school district program promotes "ethnic chauvinism" and racial resentment toward whites while segregating students by race.

Wow. That's some serious charges there, hoss. Since I left the place, Tucson has apparently become the Archie Bunker of middle sized cities.

"The governor believes ... public school students should be taught to treat and value each other as individuals and not be taught to resent or hate other races or classes of people," Senseman said.

Double wow! The only thing I hate as much as racism is its evil twin, reverse racism. Lets expose the filth that Tucson Public is teaching our kids!

The Tucson Unified School District program offers specialized courses in African-American, Mexican-American and Native-American studies that focus on history and literature and include information about the influence of a particular ethnic group. For example, in the Mexican-American Studies program, an American history course explores the role of Hispanics in the Vietnam War, and a literature course emphasizes Latino authors.

About 1,500 students at six high schools in the district are enrolled in the program. Elementary and middle school students also are exposed to the ethnic studies curriculum. The district is 56 percent Hispanic, with nearly 31,000 Latino students. Sean Arce, director of the district's Mexican-American Studies program, said last month that students perform better in school if they see in the curriculum people who look like them.

What. The. Hell. Where did the chauvinism and racism part go?

"It's just like the old South, and it's long past time that we prohibited it," Horne said.

Here's the thing, Horne. If you are gonna try to manufacture an artificial shit storm over 1,500 high school kids in one district, you might NOT want to use the the old South as your metaphor. Honestly, I don't know what they're smoking in the Arizona legislature but I bet it's tea flavored.

[silverjon]

Why is a student interested in (say) the native cultures of the Americas or the experience of immigrant subcultures somehow worse than a student not interested in anything at all?

As a former student who took some of those very courses, I wonder the same thing. Sort of Native Studies through Canadian literature, but... depiction of aboriginals is a huge part of Canadian literature. Fascinating course material, and if some of it didn't reflect too well on ol' whitey... well, whitey wrote most of that stuff in the first place.

Native Studies, an actual program in which you can get an actual degree, has a lot of workplace application beyond teaching Native Studies. Cultural understanding is incredibly important in communications with First Nations Bands here.
http://www.ualberta.ca/NATIVESTUDIES/home/nsqna.pdf" target="_blank (see question 7)

[Mr. Fed]

It sounds to me like a rather vague standard that could be used as a weapon at a wide array of courses, and subjects of study, deemed politically incorrect by conservatives.

Don't study slavery or the civil rights movement too much -- that promotes resentment of Anglos. Surely we can study WWII without mentioning internment -- that promotes resentment. Wouldn't everyone be happier if we taught American history, social studies, literature, and culture in a way that promoted harmony? I've got some books from the 1950s that might be suitable.

[dbt1949]

<sigh> those were the days.............if you were white.

[Arcanis]

I guess i was just too clever with my title

[Holman]

I guess i was just too clever with my title

We went for two!

While we're on the topic, can any recap the history of Arizona's refusal of MLK day? Were there any meaty arguments advanced against the holiday at the time of its adoption?

[edit: typo]

[Isgrimnur]

Wiki to the rescue

Two of the main arguments mentioned by opponents were that a paid holiday for federal employees would be too expensive, and that a holiday to honor a private citizen would be contrary to longstanding tradition (King had never held public office).

[Holman]

Big Fish weighs in.

[helot2000]

I guess i was just too clever with my title

We went for two!

While we're on the topic, can any recap the history of Arizona's refusal of MLK day? Were there any meaty arguments advanced against the holiday at the time of its adoption?

[edit: typo]

Meaty? More like meat-headedy...

Evan Mecham gained national attention several days after inauguration by fulfilling his campaign promise to cancel a paid MLK Day holiday for state employees. ...Mecham replied to comments from civil rights activists and the black community after the cancellation by saying "King doesn't deserve a holiday." This was followed by him telling a group of black community leaders, "You folks don't need another holiday. What you folks need are jobs."

And lets not forget

While governor, Mecham became known for statements and actions that were widely perceived as insensitive to minorities. Among these actions were the cancellation of the state's Martin Luther King, Jr. Day, attributing high divorce rates to working women, and his defense of the word "pickaninny", in describing African American children.

He was a piece of work. Thankfully, he was impeached after two years in office.

[Remus West]

Also, what does one do with a degree in (Black, Latino studies etc) except teach. I have no real arguement against them under normal conditions but when it comes to cutting basic ed classes or the "ethnic" studies classes I would vote to dump the latter.

What does one do with a degree in history? Philosophy? There are plenty of degrees out there with no direct application. Why target the ones founded on race. What about Women's Studies?

[LordMortis]

What does one do with a degree in history? Philosophy?

[gbasden]

Also, what does one do with a degree in (Black, Latino studies etc) except teach. I have no real arguement against them under normal conditions but when it comes to cutting basic ed classes or the "ethnic" studies classes I would vote to dump the latter.

What does one do with a degree in history? Philosophy? There are plenty of degrees out there with no direct application. Why target the ones founded on race. What about Women's Studies?

Strangely enough, most of the folks I know working in IT have some sort of liberal arts degree. I manage huge email server farms and my college degrees are in Political Science and History with an emphasis on the Soviet Union. You can see how I was prepared on day 1.

[LordMortis]

Strangely enough, most of the folks I know working in IT have some sort of liberal arts degree. I manage huge email server farms and my college degrees are in Political Science and History with an emphasis on the Soviet Union. You can see how I was prepared on day 1.

I have undergrad degrees in Philosophy, Writing and Linguistics, Literature, Communication and Theater Arts, and Secondary Education in English and Communications. I was one class shy of adding History in there as well. Naturally I work on computers. It is communications after all.

[Holman]

Strangely enough, most of the folks I know working in IT have some sort of liberal arts degree. I manage huge email server farms and my college degrees are in Political Science and History with an emphasis on the Soviet Union. You can see how I was prepared on day 1.

I have undergrad degrees in Philosophy, Writing and Linguistics, Literature, Communication and Theater Arts, and Secondary Education in English and Communications. I was one class shy of adding History in there as well. Naturally I work on computers. It is communications after all.

Don't they eventually kick you out of the dorm?

[LordMortis]

Don't they eventually kick you out of the dorm?

I was a po' folk commuter and never lived on campus. Ironically, I graduated the term after I finally qualified for a little free government money to go school and could finally start to afford school without killing myself at work to get through. And appropriately enough, not too long after graduation Clinton opened up the free money flood gates with all of the lifetime learning tax credits. Story of my life. Always a little too early or a little too late to the government hand out party.

If I had the energy, I'd go back to school in heartbeat. I love the classroom. I love learning from people who know stuff and can teach you stuff.